I'll judge Robert Byrd as an individual, not unlike Falwell.
But comparing the State of Texas to an Islamic Theocracy that has executed 1,000's of homosexuals is beyond absurd.
But comparing an individual like Falwell to a world religion is not? Plaese to stop the madness.
However, this position remains highly controversial even amongst liberal movements within Christianity, and is considered completely beyond the pale by mainstream Christianity[/b]
You could say that, too.
Theocracies are never good, Rich. Nobody here, least of all me, support Islamic theocracies. You have a basic disconnect in your understanding of faith and how one holds it.
You sound Godless.
If you can't extract one's faith from the terrible things that happen under its banner then you must have similar hatred towards Catholics.
Someone with a greater understanding of world events would know that the fight over orthodoxy in Islam is happening NOW, whereas these struggles had been playing out in other religions (namely, those in the 1st world/advanced world) for centuries. If you are not a believer then these struggles mean nothing. If you are, then you probably have a side, a desired outcome, something to hope and pray towards.
And in that spirit, I guess should pray for Falwell's soul. I'll see if I can overcome my hatred to do that. Hopefully you can overcome yours and see some of the beauty in faith, despite the fact that ALL faiths have terrible, ugly applications.
Jonny....this started with me comparing the fear and hatred of a man who's ideals were considered "evil" tothat of a religion who's Theocracies, and from what I can tell, written doctrine share some of these same "evil" beliefs.
I am indeed "faith-less" when it comes to spirituality and religion and put my beliefs in science and the actual actions of Man.
I know that any criticsm of Islam here brings out a specific group of defenders and in some cases, apologists. I expect this, know they are set in their opinions and hold no false hope that my views will be accepted or sway any of them.
The PM's I receive are what makes me know that at least a few folks "get what I am saying, yet for one reason or another, prefer not to voice it here.
That's cool too.
It does amaze me though that people seem to be more offended and get more upset about someone's ideals than they do actions.
I find irony in a thread that revels in the death of a man with anti-homosexual ideals, yet none appear about countries with laws, that execute gay men.
Possibly a double standard, possibly a "it doesn't effect me" apathy?
I appreciate those who participate in the spirit of sharing ideas.
To see how some folks interpret what it plainly typed in front of them can also be amusing and disturbing.
Now, in this thread, the madness will stop at my end.
Now, in this thread, the madness will stop at my end.
You said "Name the current Texas elected official that has openly, like Falwell, called for criminalization of homosexuality in any form or fashion and I'll admit that I'm wrong and be on my merry way."
I went one better and showed how 75% of Texas voters recently voted against homsexuality and with Falwell and the KKK.
Now as promised you say you will stop. But you have not admitted you were wrong, as you promised you would.
I will now make you a promise. If next time instead of hijacking a thread you start one decrying the executions of gays by Iran and Saudi Arabia I will cosign. I will also bet that if you decry the policies of those countries and their forms of government no one here will defend them. Just as no one has in this thread.
It is only when you attack an entire religion that people get offended. Case in point would be the recent defense of Christianity by Paycheck, Faux and others when you said that Christians are rightwingers, or what ever it was you said, in the Republican Debate thread.
The PM's I receive are what makes me know that at least a few folks "get what I am saying, yet for one reason or another, prefer not to voice it here.
Classic
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
Who is old enough to remember when Richard Nixon said on national tv, and I paraphrase, "If you agree with me send me a telegram for free". Everyone I know sent him a telegram saying they disagreed. He then had his picture taken with a pile of telegrams proving that everyone agreed with him. The press wasn't fooled and asked to see the telegrams thus ending the charade.
So who was old enought to remember that besides me? Oh yeah, Rocky!
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
soulstruts reeducation improved your humor skills stopped your own selfdestructive behavior. Proving soulstrut are true humanitarians.
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
soulstruts reeducation improved your humor skills stopped your own selfdestructive behavior. Proving soulstrut are true humanitarians.
But as someone who has been attacked here for not respecting certain religions, I have two serious questions for those Strutters who are enjoying their Falwell grave dancing today.
1) If simple cartoons attacking RADICAL ISLAM are insulting to ALL Muslims, then why aren't similar attacks on the Religious Right insulting to ALL Christians? And how could you support one and damn the other? (I don't think either are true)
2) If Falwell's stance on issues like Apartheid and intolerance towards things like Homosexuality justify intense hatred, why don't you have the same hatred for a religion like mainstream Islam which basically has the same beliefs? (I dislike them both equally)
Nowhere in there do you mention Theocracies - you talk about "ALL Muslims" and "mainstream Islam". (exact quotes)
You seem to get a thrill out of slamming Islam in threads not about it - you say as much in your post further up the page. You say that you dislike Islam as much as Jerry Falwell in the post I quoted. It's not a hard conclusion to draw that, when you made that post, you were baiting everyone into arguing with you over whether or not Islam was fundamentally bad or violent.
Many people have done horrible things in the name of ideas. When that point is brought up you confidently assert, "that is why I'm not religious". But the truth is that this is not specific to religion.
It is not hard, if you are someone of faith, to become offended at your antics in these discussions. That is why I did not want to engage you. But since you want real talk, here are the answers to your REAL questions. The ones you posted at the beginning of this thread.
1) The cartoons weren't attacking Radical Islam, they were attacking Muhammad. Attacks on Jerry Falwell aren't like attacks on Muhammad - the proper comparison would be an attack on Jesus. Art that is thought to have insulted Jesus causes similar uproar. So you are wrong - both faiths damn artwork that is insulting to their chosen prophet.
2) Islam as a religion is not simply about intolerance towards homosexuality, which is why it does not inspire intense hatred in me. It inspires intense love, because I have been affected by the truth and beauty in the religion. Like in Christianity, Rich, rules on sex are a very minor part of the overall faith. And in contemporary practice there are a MILLION rules like that that are broken every day. In fact, according to Islam, it is impossible for you to fulfill all of the rules set out and you just have to submit to Allah and admit that you are imperfect. He is kind and forgiving because (shock) it is the same God as Christianity and Judaism and there is the same principle of human imperfection and redemption. If you had read the Qur'an or even made any but the most self-serving attempts to learn about the religion you'd have a much better idea of what it's actually about.
2) Islam as a religion is not simply about intolerance towards homosexuality, which is why it does not inspire intense hatred in me. It inspires intense love, because I have been affected by the truth and beauty in the religion. Like in Christianity, Rich, rules on sex are a very minor part of the overall faith. And in contemporary practice there are a MILLION rules like that that are broken every day. In fact, according to Islam, it is impossible for you to fulfill all of the rules set out and you just have to submit to Allah and admit that you are imperfect. He is kind and forgiving because (shock) it is the same God as Christianity and Judaism and there is the same principle of human imperfection and redemption. Thank you Johnny.
In the Old Testament there are numerous stories about how we can not live up to God's rules.
Garden of Edan.
Sodom & Gomorrah. One of my favorite parts of the Torah is Lot's daughters getting him drunk and sleeping with him. I'm a perv.
Exodus. We break everyone of the Commandments before we get to the Promised Land.
Someone was just saying that Noah and his sons sin right after the flood waters proceed, but I don't remember that from my reading. But I do believe it.
Yet all that we do that is good also comes from the Bible.
Anyway I have read the Torah, many times, and the Gospels and Revelations. I want to read the Koran. I sent away for a free copy. I received a beautiful 25 pound 7" thick volume printed on rice paper with commentaries. I need something I can read in bed.
Can I find a smaller paperback Koran? A Koran broken into different books? Which books are most important to read? Are there translations I should look for or avoid?
I don't know what the best translations are. I haven't bought a new Qur'an since I was 15. But I did have, at one point, one of those "classics" volumes which was roughly the size of a regular paperback.
The idea is to read it (and memorize it!) all the way through, although jumping around won't hurt you.
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
soulstruts reeducation improved your humor skills stopped your own selfdestructive behavior. Proving soulstrut are true humanitarians.
at what price LaserWolf, at what price?
As Mao (as a reeducated soulstrutter he is your new leader) said "you can't make an omelet with out cracking a few eggs".
I don't know what the best translations are. I haven't bought a new Qur'an since I was 15. But I did have, at one point, one of those "classics" volumes which was roughly the size of a regular paperback.
The idea is to read it (and memorize it!) all the way through, although jumping around won't hurt you.
I'm not going to memorize it! I will read it all the way through. I will go to Powells and see what they have new. The other idea is to read it in the original Arabic. According to my introduction the true meaning can only be understood in Arabic and translations are only approximations of the Word.
I sent away for a free copy from the Islamic equivalent of the Gideons. I was expecting a cheap paperback and got this beautiful giant volume that is screaming out for it's own lectern.
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
soulstruts reeducation improved your humor skills stopped your own selfdestructive behavior. Proving soulstrut are true humanitarians.
at what price LaserWolf, at what price?
As Mao (as a reeducated soulstrutter he is your new leader) said "you can't make an omelet with out cracking a few eggs".
But as someone who has been attacked here for not respecting certain religions, I have two serious questions for those Strutters who are enjoying their Falwell grave dancing today.
1) If simple cartoons attacking RADICAL ISLAM are insulting to ALL Muslims, then why aren't similar attacks on the Religious Right insulting to ALL Christians? And how could you support one and damn the other? (I don't think either are true)
2) If Falwell's stance on issues like Apartheid and intolerance towards things like Homosexuality justify intense hatred, why don't you have the same hatred for a religion like mainstream Islam which basically has the same beliefs? (I dislike them both equally)
Nowhere in there do you mention Theocracies - you talk about "ALL Muslims" and "mainstream Islam". (exact quotes)
You seem to get a thrill out of slamming Islam in threads not about it - you say as much in your post further up the page. You say that you dislike Islam as much as Jerry Falwell in the post I quoted. It's not a hard conclusion to draw that, when you made that post, you were baiting everyone into arguing with you over whether or not Islam was fundamentally bad or violent.
Many people have done horrible things in the name of ideas. When that point is brought up you confidently assert, "that is why I'm not religious". But the truth is that this is not specific to religion.
It is not hard, if you are someone of faith, to become offended at your antics in these discussions. That is why I did not want to engage you. But since you want real talk, here are the answers to your REAL questions. The ones you posted at the beginning of this thread.
1) The cartoons weren't attacking Radical Islam, they were attacking Muhammad. Attacks on Jerry Falwell aren't like attacks on Muhammad - the proper comparison would be an attack on Jesus. Art that is thought to have insulted Jesus causes similar uproar. So you are wrong - both faiths damn artwork that is insulting to their chosen prophet.
2) Islam as a religion is not simply about intolerance towards homosexuality, which is why it does not inspire intense hatred in me. It inspires intense love, because I have been affected by the truth and beauty in the religion. Like in Christianity, Rich, rules on sex are a very minor part of the overall faith. And in contemporary practice there are a MILLION rules like that that are broken every day. In fact, according to Islam, it is impossible for you to fulfill all of the rules set out and you just have to submit to Allah and admit that you are imperfect. He is kind and forgiving because (shock) it is the same God as Christianity and Judaism and there is the same principle of human imperfection and redemption. If you had read the Qur'an or even made any but the most self-serving attempts to learn about the religion you'd have a much better idea of what it's actually about.
Jonny....I get no more of a thrill "slamming" Islam than you do slamming the religious right. They offend you and you have no problem letting that be known, same here.
I am what you would call "godless" and I believe all organized religions have negative influence on our society, although I support the right to practice anything from Satanism to Catholicism and realize a majority of Americans do.
Your above anwser at the outset would likely have set this thread on a different course.
1) Not all of the cartoons in question depicted Muhammad, although some certainly did. A good portion of Americans(mostly what is defined as the "Left") defended the "Piss Christ" exhibit which I believe was paid for with taxpayers money and as you stated, was insulting to all Christians. This same stereotyped group called for the banning of said cartoons and this sentiment has been posted here at SS too.
2) The Religious Right, like members of Islam, will tell you that their beliefs are filled with love and peace. But you can look at their actions and the verbalization of their intent, and decide otherwise. As a matter of fact, based on one of your early posts, I believe you have done just that. I came to the same conclusion. Are there loving, caring people on the Religious Right? I'd bet there are. Are there loving caring Muslims, I have no doubt. The Bible used by the Religious Right is a book of peace and love, just like the Q'ran, but if used incorrectly, can be used for evil. I've looked at every country under Islamic rule, read words from every Imam I could find, Looked at the THOUSANDS of evil things done in the last 40 years "in the name of Islam"(as proclaimed by the perpertrators, not me) and came to the same sweeping conclusion that you did about Falwell and his followers. I asked for proof to the contrary....ONE Mosque or Religious Leader within Islam that rebuked these actions and hatred. ONE country ruled by Islam that didn't carry similar doctrines of hatred that Falwell did. Apparently nothing like that exists, and all that was presented was stories of Secular countries in which Muslims are citizens.
Every single Islamic leader that I could find any info on, was very Falwell-like in his hatred towards a myriad of people and ideals. Hatred towards Israel, hatred towards America, Hatred towards other Muslims, etc., etc.
How hard is it to post..."Here is a sect/leader/Imam, etc. who DOESN'T support these doctrines of hate, here is their Mosque and they have x-Million followers??"
If we were defending Christianity it could be done by saying...."here is a Church that not only supports homosexuals, but allows them to become leaders within their church". This would at least show that not ALL Christians were anti-homosexual.
Why is it not easy, and a good way to conduct this conversation, to present similar info for Islam?? My thoughts are it's because they don't exist. And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
I have a good friend who's son was recruited into a Mosque in the U.S. and is now on the FBI's Most Wanted List as an Islamic Terrorist, so yeah, I could be biased.
Now instead of continuing the pointless back and forth, show me some facts that show that all the current Islamic Leaders(a specific name) are NOT like Jerry Falwell...if what you say about the religion is true, this should not be hard.
And let's stay away from the "Rock Says All Muslims Kill Gays" which is beyond absurd.
You should be aware that there are various translations , some deemed more accurate than others.
Thank you. I am pretty sure that is the version I got for free.
I know that my favorite Torah translation is the Anchor Bible series. (Though there 100s I have not read.) I bet there is an Anchor or other scholarly translation of the Koran. Muslim's are fortunate that no one has done a "modern translation using the language of today's youth" of the Koran... yet.
Rich - I am not interested in presenting you with more progressive Imams and Mosques because I am not interested in "winning" some lame argument over this. Your inability to see any nuance or diversity in Islam is clear; you have spent ten times the amount of time researching this stance as I have spent writing posts. I, thankfully, have more important things to do than searching the internet for a "Rockadelic-approved" Masjid. All I can tell you is that these things have never come up in my Local_Islamic_Experience.
America has people like you - it shouldn't surprise anyone that the Muslim world has similar alternatives.
As I said before, I am no longer a practicing Muslim and it is therefore inappropriate for me to take on this level of representation here. I am already embarassed because you could've asked people far more studied than me. I was offended by your post and called you on it. If you want to learn more go to the local Masjid. They won't bite you.
I have never attended a gay mosque - perhaps they exist but I do not know of them. I do know gay Muslims. Make of that what you will - it should be clear at this point that I do not care.
Rich - I am not interested in presenting you with more progressive Imams and Mosques because I am not interested in "winning" some lame argument over this. Your inability to see any nuance or diversity in Islam is clear; you have spent ten times the amount of time researching this stance as I have spent writing posts. I, thankfully, have more important things to do than searching the internet for a "Rockadelic-approved" Masjid. All I can tell you is that these things have never come up in my Local_Islamic_Experience.
America has people like you - it shouldn't surprise anyone that the Muslim world has similar alternatives.
As I said before, I am no longer a practicing Muslim and it is therefore inappropriate for me to take on this level of representation here. I am already embarassed because you could've asked people far more studied than me. I was offended by your post and called you on it. If you want to learn more go to the local Masjid. They won't bite you.
I have never attended a gay mosque - perhaps they exist but I do not know of them. I do know gay Muslims. Make of that what you will - it should be clear at this point that I do not care.
Understood....just like I'm sure no one on the Religious Right could convince you(or me) that they are really peaceful, loving and misunderstood.
Now instead of continuing the pointless back and forth, show me some facts that show that all the current Islamic Leaders(a specific name) are NOT like Jerry Falwell...if what you say about the religion is true, this should not be hard.
I don't know why i waste my time researching this stuff for you. You will now find some way to discredit all these links or change the subject. You say you have read everything you could find that has been written by an Imam. My conclusion is you have never looked for any writtings, because you couldn't read them all in a lifetime.
As you guessed it was not hard. Why on earth you couldn't have looked and found these I have no idea. Any way here are a few of the hundreds of links I have found to Islamic Leaders who are not like Jerry Falwell.
Rich - I am not interested in presenting you with more progressive Imams and Mosques because I am not interested in "winning" some lame argument over this. Your inability to see any nuance or diversity in Islam is clear; you have spent ten times the amount of time researching this stance as I have spent writing posts. I, thankfully, have more important things to do than searching the internet for a "Rockadelic-approved" Masjid. All I can tell you is that these things have never come up in my Local_Islamic_Experience.
America has people like you - it shouldn't surprise anyone that the Muslim world has similar alternatives.
As I said before, I am no longer a practicing Muslim and it is therefore inappropriate for me to take on this level of representation here. I am already embarassed because you could've asked people far more studied than me. I was offended by your post and called you on it. If you want to learn more go to the local Masjid. They won't bite you.
I have never attended a gay mosque - perhaps they exist but I do not know of them. I do know gay Muslims. Make of that what you will - it should be clear at this point that I do not care.
Understood....just like I'm sure no one on the Religious Right could convince you(or me) that they are really peaceful, loving and misunderstood.
Thanks for the discourse.
I'm out to do some digging now.
Just to let you know, people on the religious right have convinced me that they are peaceful and loving. I work as a volunteer coordinator and work with religious right Evangelical Christians all the time. They are peaceful and loving. I know some hateful people, people like Jerry Falwell, who use religion to justify their views. I also know Christians who have conservative (but peaceful and loving) views.
I find your bigorty toward Christianity as abhorent as your bigotry to Islam. Fortunate for you that you live in a state that embraces bigorty.
And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
Just out of curiousity: has anybody that disagreed with you on any subject ever been able to muster sufficient facts to prompt such an admission?
You're gonna see it right now......
Laser, The links you posted above show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people of the Muslim faith, defined in most of those links as "Liberal Muslims", that are against hatred, violence and discrimination against everyone from Women to Homosexuals to Jews. In each and every case it is clear that they want the Islamic movement to move away from this way of thinking and they are doing whatever they can to accomplish this. My insinuation that the entire Muslim population subscibed to the hate these groups are trying to change was obviously WRONG. What percentage of Muslims agree with these "Liberals" will be interesting to watch in the future.
this thread is STILL going? I know it has shifted to a theocratic dogma/hypocracy discussion, but,my god, Bo Diddley is on his death-bed...A TRUE American hero is in his last days...PRIORITIES DUDES, PRIORITIES!
And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
Just out of curiousity: has anybody that disagreed with you on any subject ever been able to muster sufficient facts to prompt such an admission?
You're gonna see it right now......
Laser, The links you posted above show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people of the Muslim faith, defined in most of those links as "Liberal Muslims", that are against hatred, violence and discrimination against everyone from Women to Homosexuals to Jews. In each and every case it is clear that they want the Islamic movement to move away from this way of thinking and they are doing whatever they can to accomplish this. My insinuation that the entire Muslim population subscibed to the hate these groups are trying to change was obviously WRONG. What percentage of Muslims agree with these "Liberals" will be interesting to watch in the future.
You are what we call a mensch.
I agree with you that Islamic Theocracies are some of the worse govenments in the world. I hate them.
And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
Just out of curiousity: has anybody that disagreed with you on any subject ever been able to muster sufficient facts to prompt such an admission?
You're gonna see it right now......
Laser, The links you posted above show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people of the Muslim faith, defined in most of those links as "Liberal Muslims", that are against hatred, violence and discrimination against everyone from Women to Homosexuals to Jews. In each and every case it is clear that they want the Islamic movement to move away from this way of thinking and they are doing whatever they can to accomplish this. My insinuation that the entire Muslim population subscibed to the hate these groups are trying to change was obviously WRONG. What percentage of Muslims agree with these "Liberals" will be interesting to watch in the future.
You are what we call a mensch.
I agree with you that Islamic Theocracies are some of the worse govenments in the world. I hate them.
For once, I can't disagree with you......
In Yiddish (from which the word has migrated into American English), mensch roughly means "a good person." A role model. A "mensch" is a particularly good person, like "a stand-up guy," a person with the qualities one would hope for in a dear friend or trusted colleague. According to author and Yiddish popularist Leo Rosten,
And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
Just out of curiousity: has anybody that disagreed with you on any subject ever been able to muster sufficient facts to prompt such an admission?
You're gonna see it right now......
Laser, The links you posted above show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people of the Muslim faith, defined in most of those links as "Liberal Muslims", that are against hatred, violence and discrimination against everyone from Women to Homosexuals to Jews. In each and every case it is clear that they want the Islamic movement to move away from this way of thinking and they are doing whatever they can to accomplish this. My insinuation that the entire Muslim population subscibed to the hate these groups are trying to change was obviously WRONG. What percentage of Muslims agree with these "Liberals" will be interesting to watch in the future.
You are what we call a mensch.
I agree with you that Islamic Theocracies are some of the worse govenments in the world. I hate them.
For once, I can't disagree with you......
In Yiddish (from which the word has migrated into American English), mensch roughly means "a good person." A role model. A "mensch" is a particularly good person, like "a stand-up guy," a person with the qualities one would hope for in a dear friend or trusted colleague. According to author and Yiddish popularist Leo Rosten,
More specifically someone with the balls to say "I was wrong".
Has there ever been a RIP thread for any (non-American musician) Muslim on soulstrut?
you forget guzzo's tribute to arafat...
I remember now there was a thread. Was anyone saying nice things about Arafat? Was I? I seem to remember some people trying to reduce him to just a corrupt theiving politician (Vitamin I think). Were people saying he was a freedom fighter or something. (I hope I wasn't saying that!) I'm thinking that I would rate Arafat as better than Saddam and worse than Robert Mugabe.
safe to say guzzo was the only one saying nice things.
Wow, to this day no one can value anything Arafat ever did?
he wasn't always a corrupt evil man, Earlier in his PLO fight he had intentions of making a positive move for his people.
Comments
Jonny....this started with me comparing the fear and hatred of a man who's ideals were considered "evil" tothat of a religion who's Theocracies, and from what I can tell, written doctrine share some of these same "evil" beliefs.
I am indeed "faith-less" when it comes to spirituality and religion and put my beliefs in science and the actual actions of Man.
I know that any criticsm of Islam here brings out a specific group of defenders and in some cases, apologists. I expect this, know they are set in their opinions and hold no false hope that my views will be accepted or sway any of them.
The PM's I receive are what makes me know that at least a few folks "get what I am saying, yet for one reason or another, prefer not to voice it here.
That's cool too.
It does amaze me though that people seem to be more offended and get more upset about someone's ideals than they do actions.
I find irony in a thread that revels in the death of a man with anti-homosexual ideals, yet none appear about countries with laws, that execute gay men.
Possibly a double standard, possibly a "it doesn't effect me" apathy?
I appreciate those who participate in the spirit of sharing ideas.
To see how some folks interpret what it plainly typed in front of them can also be amusing and disturbing.
Now, in this thread, the madness will stop at my end.
Classic
"The PMs are flooding in! I got all kinds of people that are too mentally soft to publicly state their case on the team!"
You said "Name the current Texas elected official that has openly, like Falwell, called for criminalization of homosexuality in any form or fashion and I'll admit that I'm wrong and be on my merry way."
I went one better and showed how 75% of Texas voters recently voted against homsexuality and with Falwell and the KKK.
Now as promised you say you will stop. But you have not admitted you were wrong, as you promised you would.
I will now make you a promise. If next time instead of hijacking a thread you start one decrying the executions of gays by Iran and Saudi Arabia I will cosign. I will also bet that if you decry the policies of those countries and their forms of government no one here will defend them. Just as no one has in this thread.
It is only when you attack an entire religion that people get offended. Case in point would be the recent defense of Christianity by Paycheck, Faux and others when you said that Christians are rightwingers, or what ever it was you said, in the Republican Debate thread.
Who is old enough to remember when Richard Nixon said on national tv, and I paraphrase, "If you agree with me send me a telegram for free". Everyone I know sent him a telegram saying they disagreed. He then had his picture taken with a pile of telegrams proving that everyone agreed with him. The press wasn't fooled and asked to see the telegrams thus ending the charade.
So who was old enought to remember that besides me? Oh yeah, Rocky!
people are afraid to state their case because if they say the wrong thing they may get banned.
alas, no one knows this better than I. I spent almost a month in the Soulstut gulag being tortured with Leo Sayer records before eventually being released after completeing a re-education session.
soulstruts reeducation improved your humor skills stopped your own selfdestructive behavior. Proving soulstrut are true humanitarians.
at what price LaserWolf, at what price?
Nowhere in there do you mention Theocracies - you talk about "ALL Muslims" and "mainstream Islam". (exact quotes)
You seem to get a thrill out of slamming Islam in threads not about it - you say as much in your post further up the page. You say that you dislike Islam as much as Jerry Falwell in the post I quoted. It's not a hard conclusion to draw that, when you made that post, you were baiting everyone into arguing with you over whether or not Islam was fundamentally bad or violent.
Many people have done horrible things in the name of ideas. When that point is brought up you confidently assert, "that is why I'm not religious". But the truth is that this is not specific to religion.
It is not hard, if you are someone of faith, to become offended at your antics in these discussions. That is why I did not want to engage you. But since you want real talk, here are the answers to your REAL questions. The ones you posted at the beginning of this thread.
1) The cartoons weren't attacking Radical Islam, they were attacking Muhammad. Attacks on Jerry Falwell aren't like attacks on Muhammad - the proper comparison would be an attack on Jesus. Art that is thought to have insulted Jesus causes similar uproar. So you are wrong - both faiths damn artwork that is insulting to their chosen prophet.
2) Islam as a religion is not simply about intolerance towards homosexuality, which is why it does not inspire intense hatred in me. It inspires intense love, because I have been affected by the truth and beauty in the religion. Like in Christianity, Rich, rules on sex are a very minor part of the overall faith. And in contemporary practice there are a MILLION rules like that that are broken every day. In fact, according to Islam, it is impossible for you to fulfill all of the rules set out and you just have to submit to Allah and admit that you are imperfect. He is kind and forgiving because (shock) it is the same God as Christianity and Judaism and there is the same principle of human imperfection and redemption. If you had read the Qur'an or even made any but the most self-serving attempts to learn about the religion you'd have a much better idea of what it's actually about.
Thank you Johnny.
In the Old Testament there are numerous stories about how we can not live up to God's rules.
Garden of Edan.
Sodom & Gomorrah. One of my favorite parts of the Torah is Lot's daughters getting him drunk and sleeping with him. I'm a perv.
Exodus. We break everyone of the Commandments before we get to the Promised Land.
Someone was just saying that Noah and his sons sin right after the flood waters proceed, but I don't remember that from my reading. But I do believe it.
Yet all that we do that is good also comes from the Bible.
Anyway I have read the Torah, many times, and the Gospels and Revelations. I want to read the Koran. I sent away for a free copy. I received a beautiful 25 pound 7" thick volume printed on rice paper with commentaries. I need something I can read in bed.
Can I find a smaller paperback Koran? A Koran broken into different books? Which books are most important to read? Are there translations I should look for or avoid?
The idea is to read it (and memorize it!) all the way through, although jumping around won't hurt you.
As Mao (as a reeducated soulstrutter he is your new leader) said "you can't make an omelet with out cracking a few eggs".
I'm not going to memorize it! I will read it all the way through. I will go to Powells and see what they have new. The other idea is to read it in the original Arabic. According to my introduction the true meaning can only be understood in Arabic and translations are only approximations of the Word.
I sent away for a free copy from the Islamic equivalent of the Gideons. I was expecting a cheap paperback and got this beautiful giant volume that is screaming out for it's own lectern.
I hear. And obey.
Jonny....I get no more of a thrill "slamming" Islam than you do slamming the religious right. They offend you and you have no problem letting that be known, same here.
I am what you would call "godless" and I believe all organized religions have negative influence on our society, although I support the right to practice anything from Satanism to Catholicism and realize a majority of Americans do.
Your above anwser at the outset would likely have set this thread on a different course.
1) Not all of the cartoons in question depicted Muhammad, although some certainly did. A good portion of Americans(mostly what is defined as the "Left") defended the "Piss Christ" exhibit which I believe was paid for with taxpayers money and as you stated, was insulting to all Christians. This same stereotyped group called for the banning of said cartoons and this sentiment has been posted here at SS too.
2) The Religious Right, like members of Islam, will tell you that their beliefs are filled with love and peace. But you can look at their actions and the verbalization of their intent, and decide otherwise. As a matter of fact, based on one of your early posts, I believe you have done just that. I came to the same conclusion. Are there loving, caring people on the Religious Right? I'd bet there are. Are there loving caring Muslims, I have no doubt. The Bible used by the Religious Right is a book of peace and love, just like the Q'ran, but if used incorrectly, can be used for evil. I've looked at every country under Islamic rule, read words from every Imam I could find, Looked at the THOUSANDS of evil things done in the last 40 years "in the name of Islam"(as proclaimed by the perpertrators, not me) and came to the same sweeping conclusion that you did about Falwell and his followers. I asked for proof to the contrary....ONE Mosque or Religious Leader within Islam that rebuked these actions and hatred. ONE country ruled by Islam that didn't carry similar doctrines of hatred that Falwell did. Apparently nothing like that exists, and all that was presented was stories of Secular countries in which Muslims are citizens.
Every single Islamic leader that I could find any info on, was very Falwell-like in his hatred towards a myriad of people and ideals. Hatred towards Israel, hatred towards America, Hatred towards other Muslims, etc., etc.
How hard is it to post..."Here is a sect/leader/Imam, etc. who DOESN'T support these doctrines of hate, here is their Mosque and they have x-Million followers??"
If we were defending Christianity it could be done by saying...."here is a Church that not only supports homosexuals, but allows them to become leaders within their church". This would at least show that not ALL Christians were anti-homosexual.
Why is it not easy, and a good way to conduct this conversation, to present similar info for Islam?? My thoughts are it's because they don't exist. And I'm certainly smart and respectful enough to say. "I was wrong" if these facts were posted here.
I have a good friend who's son was recruited into a Mosque in the U.S. and is now on the FBI's Most Wanted List as an Islamic Terrorist, so yeah, I could be biased.
Now instead of continuing the pointless back and forth, show me some facts that show that all the current Islamic Leaders(a specific name) are NOT like Jerry Falwell...if what you say about the religion is true, this should not be hard.
And let's stay away from the "Rock Says All Muslims Kill Gays" which is beyond absurd.
Thank you. I am pretty sure that is the version I got for free.
I know that my favorite Torah translation is the Anchor Bible series. (Though there 100s I have not read.) I bet there is an Anchor or other scholarly translation of the Koran. Muslim's are fortunate that no one has done a "modern translation using the language of today's youth" of the Koran... yet.
America has people like you - it shouldn't surprise anyone that the Muslim world has similar alternatives.
As I said before, I am no longer a practicing Muslim and it is therefore inappropriate for me to take on this level of representation here. I am already embarassed because you could've asked people far more studied than me. I was offended by your post and called you on it. If you want to learn more go to the local Masjid. They won't bite you.
I have never attended a gay mosque - perhaps they exist but I do not know of them. I do know gay Muslims. Make of that what you will - it should be clear at this point that I do not care.
Aw yeahhhhhhhh
Understood....just like I'm sure no one on the Religious Right could convince you(or me) that they are really peaceful, loving and misunderstood.
Thanks for the discourse.
I'm out to do some digging now.
I don't know why i waste my time researching this stuff for you. You will now find some way to discredit all these links or change the subject. You say you have read everything you could find that has been written by an Imam. My conclusion is you have never looked for any writtings, because you couldn't read them all in a lifetime.
As you guessed it was not hard. Why on earth you couldn't have looked and found these I have no idea. Any way here are a few of the hundreds of links I have found to Islamic Leaders who are not like Jerry Falwell.
http://www.tatchellrightsfund.org/fundraiser2006.htm
http://www.free-minds.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xadir_Diaye
http://www.icipglobal.org/
http://islam21.net/mambo/index.php
http://www.karamah.org/home.htm
http://islamlib.com/en/page.php
http://csidonline.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
Just out of curiousity: has anybody that disagreed with you on any subject ever been able to muster sufficient facts to prompt such an admission?
Just to let you know, people on the religious right have convinced me that they are peaceful and loving. I work as a volunteer coordinator and work with religious right Evangelical Christians all the time. They are peaceful and loving.
I know some hateful people, people like Jerry Falwell, who use religion to justify their views. I also know Christians who have conservative (but peaceful and loving) views.
I find your bigorty toward Christianity as abhorent as your bigotry to Islam. Fortunate for you that you live in a state that embraces bigorty.
I'm gonna go clean the house now.
You're gonna see it right now......
Laser,
The links you posted above show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people of the Muslim faith, defined in most of those links as "Liberal Muslims", that are against hatred, violence and discrimination against everyone from Women to Homosexuals to Jews. In each and every case it is clear that they want the Islamic movement to move away from this way of thinking and they are doing whatever they can to accomplish this. My insinuation that the entire Muslim population subscibed to the hate these groups are trying to change was obviously WRONG. What percentage of Muslims agree with these "Liberals" will be interesting to watch in the future.
You are what we call a mensch.
I agree with you that Islamic Theocracies are some of the worse govenments in the world. I hate them.
For once, I can't disagree with you......
In Yiddish (from which the word has migrated into American English), mensch roughly means "a good person." A role model. A "mensch" is a particularly good person, like "a stand-up guy," a person with the qualities one would hope for in a dear friend or trusted colleague. According to author and Yiddish popularist Leo Rosten,
More specifically someone with the balls to say "I was wrong".
Wow, to this day no one can value anything Arafat ever did?
he wasn't always a corrupt evil man, Earlier in his PLO fight he had intentions of making a positive move for his people.