Career Advice???
Big_Stacks
"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey,I have some SERIOUS decisions to make career-wise. I just wanted to bounce them off of the 'Strut's brain trust. First, I go up for tenure at my current university this upcoming Wednesday (December 6th). As a tenured professor, I am promoted from Assistant Professor to Associate Professor, meaning I have a job there for life outside of committing a crime. It is the ultimate in job security. I am told by senior faculty members both inside and outside of my department that my case is very strong, meaning I'm likely to be granted tenure. My current department has great scholars, is supportive, as is the dean of the school and faculty colleagues outside my department. The only issue is that I HATE living in Milwaukee.So, here's the dilemma. I have a job visit with Vanderbilt University this coming January. The Owen Graduate School of Management is a respectable school with good faculty, resources, etc. (as far as I know at the moment). Also, Nashville looks pretty good on paper as a place to live (e.g., decent Black middle-class population, good job growth, low cost of living, etc.). On the other hand, a colleague at Cornell asked me to apply for a position there as an Assistant Professor. Turns out, they don't want to consider me for a junior faculty spot, but potentially as an Associate Professor. They want me to come up there to give a research presentation early next semester to assess me for a senior faculty spot (with tenure) down the line (in say 1 or 2 years).What would you do in this situation? If Vanderbilt makes an offer do you (1) take it, or (2) pass in the hopes of getting the coveted Ivy-League spot later on? I like my current department outside of my woes about the city of Milwaukee. Bear in mind, a job at Cornell (in the Industrial and Labor Relations department), with their big dough, resources, etc. can take my research record to an even higher level. This would allow me to possibly grab a highly-paid, even higher-resource "distinguished professor" position as a Full Professor (top of the food chain) at another high-quality university down the line (i.e., you can hand-pick your spot). Cornell would make a great career move (by providing Ivy-League credibility to the resume), but I've heard Ithaca, NY is a tough place to live. I think Nashville may offer a better quality of live, but Vandy wouldn't have the same impact on the resume as Cornell (if this comes about). Thoughts??? Thanks in advance.Peace,Confused Stacks from Kakalak
Comments
Damn.
Thats tough dude.
If you hate milwaukee then I would scratch that as being an option. A good job doesn't mean shit if you are living in a place that makes you miserable.
When I got out of the Army I had to move back home with my folks in TX, and I was miserable. So with only a few hundred dollars to my name I came out here to San Diego and couch surfed. I was broke, but I was a hell of a lot happy. I struggled for a long ass time but now I'm living comfortably.
But now I'm 30 and I Can't see myself going through that struggle again. That shit is just too hard. Luckily, I'm happy here.
You on the other hand, well I'm pretty sure you're older than I am, which means you want to "struggle" even less that I do. BUT - you have a doctorate. You have options - good ones - wherever it is you want to go.
So... Cornell or Nashville? Personally I would pick Cornell, but thats because I would rather live in NY than Nashville (although I bet the records in nashville are hotter! woot!)
If Nashville is the kind of place you could really see yourself being happy, then it doesn't really matter what your resume looks like because you won't be going anywhere anyways, right?
But... it also depends on how much your work means to you. I put up with work because it means I can live.
Your work on the other hand is something that you've worked really hard to acheive, and if there is a place out there that can take it to the next level, then thats something to consider.
So your choice is really a question of whats more important to you: the work that you do, or life outside of work? would you be happy living in a great place knowing that you could be taking your research to the next level somewhere else?
Let me know what you decide.... and good luck man.
Thanks for the words of advice. It's a tough choice to either (1) chill and wait for the potential bigger payoff at Cornell (career-wise), or (2) take the Vandy job and the associated risk of leaving a department I enjoy. Then, will Cornell be turned off by my leaving my current University for Vandy, only to quickly leave Vandy for Cornell? Then, if I pass on Vandy, whose to say that Cornell will end up offering me a job anyway. The weird thing is that they would be creating a job for me, as there isn't an advertised senior faculty position open. It's all speculative. To add to the confusion, it may be a point of contention at Vandy whether they'll bring me in with tenure or not (which they must or no deal). Then, add on the fact that just this week, a highly-respected colleague at the University of Alabama "whispered in my ear" about recruiting me to work there. I don't think wifey is enthused at all about 'Bama (or the deep-South in general), but 'Bama is a good school, has a management doctoral program, and good resources. Also, I know a brotha in the department who is happy working there, and spoke favorably about Tuscaloosa and nearby Birmingham. Confusing!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Try to visit Ithaca like a campus visit before this presentation you make to scope it out and see what you think.
Could you just keep the job in Milwaukee area that you might get tenure with, move to someplace uber remote where you don't have to see anybody, and call it a wrap? Would that be cool with you, or do you want access to "culture?"
Go where you'll be happiest. If you've had such success in your current job, why couldn't you replicate that elsewhere (Nashville)?
1
T.N.
Great points, T.N. You sound like a brotha I co-author articles with who says you'll hate Ithaca, why go there? But, Cornell on the resume will open up bigger future options later like distinguished (named) professorships (e.g., Big Stacks, Chester H. Weatherington Professor of Management; such positions are funded usually by some super rich dude who gives an endowment to a particular business school) which come with great teaching loads (like 1 course a semester), doctoral students, research resources (e.g., a budget for collecting data, buying datasets, creating an institute, etc.), great loot, and so on more so than Vanderbilt. So really, if given the chance, I'd stay at Cornell say 5 years, publish my ass off, and then go for distinguished professorships at top schools in places where I'd really like to live (e.g., UNC-Chapel Hill, Maryland, etc.). Some of the top schools have this "pedigree" thing going on where they like for their faculty to come from highly-esteemed institutions. Cornell could open the door for me to potentially play in that league. I agree that Nashville will probably offer greater work/non-work life balance than Ithaca.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I'm looking at the same thing you are, right now, except far, far lower down the hierarchy of academia. Don't ever feel like you're using people to get ahead in this profession: If you're giving it your best, they should feel FORTUNATE for having you be there. God knows there are a million losers sticking it out because they can get away with it. You have no obligation aside from your contract, so if you wanna jump rail to Nashville then jump rail to Ithaca, I say they better pony up to keep you around.
Yeah Mike,
I feel what you're saying. One of the negatives of academe is having to leave to get a substantial raise with all the pay compression. It's definitely a players market out there. Yet, I've just grown use to having support in my department (something that was nearly non-existent while I was in grad school), so it's tough stepping out there into the "unknown." My career trajectory has gone upward in the last few years, so faculty at other spots are gettin' at me. I'm new to taking the risk of going to new departments, and this can sometimes backfire. A cat that left our school went to U of Illinois-Urbana only to be denied tenure.
The nice thing about Cornell is that I know three of the folks in the department, so there will be less uncertainty about collegiality. The Vandy folks I met at the Academy of Management this past August seemed easygoing as well, so I think it'll be a decent environment. The real issue will be timing. If Vandy makes a quick, exploding offer I won't have the opportunity to feel out Cornell before I make a decision. I wish that the two visits could be close together. Oh well.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
stacks, sound like wherever theres an opening, you got a good shot. maybe you want to weigh pro/cons of career vs. location. figure out which ones more important to you at this moment in your life. doesnt sound like youre married to any part of the country though and it sounds like you got some balleristic career moves to make. youll make any place home after you finish your power movements. dont be afraid to make mistakes...siempre palante.
rooting for ya.knock em out,t
Thanks for the support, bro!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
No doubt. Assuming a "yes" vote on Wednesday, any move I make will have to come WITH tenure (or no deal). This includes Vandy, Cornell, or anywhere else for that matter. Once I get it, I will not have to do it again. I haven't busted my ass to earn a record worthy of tenure only to give it up at some other university. The tedium of preparing my 11 tenure packets alone was enough to convince me of that.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Given that I'm at the opposite end from you (first year on the TT), I'm taking obvious interest in the thread. Here's my perspective as someone who's been thinking about where the hell I want to take my career down the line:
For me, the most important thing is the environment that I and my family live in. When I was on the market, my wife (who easily outearned me) basically said: "you got three options on where to look: Bay, L.A., NY. As you can imagine, that really limits your options and I was extremely lucky to have gotten a job in Southern California.
I'm happy with my job (albeit, it's been after one semester) but looking long term, there's definitely things I might want access to that simply are not possible here: a smaller class load (I teach 3-3), a doctoral program, and other related resources that you'd expect to find at a proper research university.
However, would I consider leaving California to move to, say, Wisconsin in order to have those things? Never.
I know to some academics, they would see that reluctance as a reflection of me not being serious enough about my job but to me, whatever benefits came with the job isn't worth what I'd be losing (and my family too) in terms of local lifestyle. I like being a professor but it's not my sole identity, professionally speaking so I'm not as invested as peers of mine in trying to get the best job possible, regardless of where it is.
However, this isn't the choice you're facing - you have it flipped...a gamble that you could improve your geography but at what cost? Obviously, tenure is the number one priority but assuming that's not the issue, the question remains: what's most important to you? A department you like? Resources? A new/better city to live in?
I don't envy your choice (even though I celebrate the fact that tenure is imminent. Props man, that's huge) just b/c it seems like you have good reasons all around. Regardless though, if you end up moving WITH tenure, at the very least, you have a secure job which is more than MOST Americans can say. That alone should help take the sting out of the challenges with a relocation.
Its a bigger risk to turn down the tenure, but with bigger risk comes bigger rewards. me personally I would go for it, because if you don't try, you won't know if you could have done it. As long as you don't have dependents you can take a risk like this with little to no impact on your life. Plus since you are already up for tenure at your current university, you know you could probably get tenure at a similar university down the line.
As far as culturally, I think for the most part unless you are at an NYU or any large city university you are destined for college town living, so IMO that really should not be a factor (to me that comes with the job terrirory).
Its great to have so many options. Congrats.
Odub, just out of curiosity, what are you teaching at Long Beach this quarter?
Reading this part again...
I don't think taking the Vandy job means that Cornell would be less interested. Real (academia) headz know the deal: if you jumped over to Vandy, I don't think - in my professional experience - this would be a huge issue for Cornell. Your credentials wouldn't have changed by that move - if anything, you've made yourself more attractive given the reputation that Vandy has. Of course, there's still the risk of leaving a program you know you like for new territory but on the flip side, Nashville vs. Milwaukee...advantage = Nashville.
A good friend and colleague, Mark Anthony Neal, went from SUNY-Binghington (sp?), where I think he got his tenure, to UT-Austin for all of a year before taking a job at Duke University, where he is now. Apparently, his stint in Austin didn't seem to trouble the Duke hiring committee. Another friend of mine, also at CSULB, came here after a year (TT) at a small private school in the L.A. area and I'm almost certainly no one at LB felt less about her qualifications just because she hadn't put more time in her first appointment.
It could be different in business school but my experience with liberal arts departments is that for beginning faculty, it's not unusual at all for them to have jumped around on 1-2 year appointments before settling in somewhere. It's just part of the nature of the game and everyone understands that.
So personally, I don't think going to Vandy = losing out on Cornell. It does raise a question however: do you and your wife want to move twice in 1-2 years?
Regardless, it seems pretty apparent in your points that you really want to get out of Wisconsin. I think you should go with your gut on this one if that's really the case.
With tenure of course
I've had a few friends who've either gone to school there or taught there. The same thing I hear over and over:
"Love Cornell, hate Ithaca." Oof.
It's pretty remote - you're not close to any major city at all and it's a rather white town also (~75% White, 6% Black, 13% Asian).
Spelunk, the answer your question: I'm in the sociology dept at CSULB. I teach classes in race and popular culture.
See, I knew I should come to the 'Strut for some wise words and clarity. I guess the major issue is the choice between (1) career success vs. (2) quality of life. It's a tough choice, because I may kick myself for turning down a Cornell gig if that becomes available. I don't see any major losses (outside of the relative prestige factor) of picking Vandy over Cornell. At my current spot, I teach a 2-2 load with no summer teaching, and relatively limited committee obligations. Obviously, this will change post-tenure, as I will become a member of the business school's Executive Committee (senior faculty who decides hiring decisions, curriculum issues, etc.). This will entail a greater amount of meetings (Yuck!!!). I can maintain load as long as I remain research active (i.e., publish at least 1 top-tier [A-level] or well-regarded [B-level] publication every 5 years). So, if the wife and I can manage living in Milwaukee, I could have a respectable career here.
The problem is my ambition. I see all of the "monster scholars" (who publish like machines) at these top-notch, resource-rich institutions and my mind says, "I'm publishing well now at a school where I lack resources. Imagine if I had a strong doctoral program, resources, a research lab, etc. I could become reknowned in my field of study." That's where my visions of Cornell comes in because I see them as a stepping-stone to that coveted named, distinguished professorship at a top-flight school (as my final stop on the career path). My eventual goal is to become a fellow in the professional organizations of which I am a member (Society for Industrial-Organizational Psychology and/or the Academy of Management) for outstanding scholarship. A top school will greatly facilitate this achievement. Finally, I want that feeling of fulfillment that comes from mentoring budding scholars in a doctoral program. I am on two dissertation committtees right now, but we get few if any micro-organizational behavior students (my area), but macro-strategic management types.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
But I just wanted to say props for making some big moves in your life. It's obvious you've worked hard and it's paying off for you. Think about it this way - some people DREAM of making decisions like this one... If you've gotten this far, then I'm sure you'll make the right decision for yourself.
This is interesting to me, too. Although I'm going after high school teaching tenure now, ha ha, I'm looking at a PhD or an EdD in my future and I'm interested in teaching college.
Vanderbilt is supposed to be a good university (their Special Ed dept is top in its class, not that you're doing that, but anyways..) but Cornell is Cornell. Where do you want to end up? And how can you easiest get there? AND what does the wifey have to say in the matter?
peace,
Anna
Great questions!!! Here are some places (among others) I would LOVE to have a distinguished, named professorship (as a final career stop):
-University of Maryland.
-University of Virginia.
-Duke University.
-UNC.
-Ohio State.
-Georgetown.
T**i is actually sold on the Cornell thing precisely for pragmatic, career-related reasons. She rationalizes it as "Hey, we dealt with living here all these years, at least there are long-term rewards that could follow working at Cornell." I've had several former faculty at Cornell trash Ithaca, NY, so I'm fully aware of the quality-of-life challenges there. But, like you said, it is Cornell. It's hard to look away given the possibilities that could follow. Also, folks, any thoughts of U of Alabama? Or, did T**i's thoughts sum it up for the rest of you (no 'Bama)?
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Moving is a bitch. The less, the better.
Hey O-Dub,
You're reading my mind, buddy! The problem is that the Cornell visit is merely for a presentation for the department to get a look at me. Afterwards, a position may not even follow. Plus, if interested, the faculty has to convince the dean, who has to convince the Provost, and so on. You know how that goes for created positions. There could be a breakdown of support beyond the faculty level, since administrators can be idiosyncratic.
Vandy does have a doctoral program with a number of students, so I could possible have some folks to mentor. I think the linchpin will be Vandy's potential unwillingness to grant me tenure coming in. Actually, I think this is were the deal (if a job offer is made) will fall flat. It will really become an issue of how bad they want me as a hire. Then again, they may make a "mafia offer" (like what happened for my current job) that (monetarily) I just can't refuse. Vandy is very well-funded. I feel you totally on the multiple moves thing (oh no!!!).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Well, I think it goes without saying: no tenure, no deal. It really doesn't make any sense - in my opinion - to sacrifice tenure in favor of a job, even with more pay. You've worked too hard and too long not to enjoy the fruits of that labor.
And seriously, if you have THREE different schools looking at you, that puts the power in your hands. You're obviously a professor that people want on their team, albeit with different levels of incentives that they'd be willing to float your way. But if Vandy can't at least cough up tenure, tell them dudes to save their song and dance for the Opry.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
peace, stein. . .
Truth be told, this thread makes me feel dumb!
But I agree, folks helping folks with some "real world move" decisions is why I will never leave this place.
I HEART SOULSTRUT.
Herm
I'm 3 years into my PhD program in history at UC Berkeley... and I've been thinking hypothetically about these kinds of situations. As Orals approach, the reality of the academic job market weighs heavy. I'm committed to living in the Bay: I don't want to live anywhere else, I married someone who doesn't want to live anywhere else, we just took on a huge mortgage to prove that we don't want to live anywhere else, and we plan to raise a kid or two who won't want to live anywhere else. I think, maybe, I picked the wrong career...
..Except I love what I do. There must be a way to put 6 years of life-altering, joy-draining, sleep-depriving training to good use. There MUST!!
What do each of you think about junior college? Neither of you mentioned teaching at a city college even early on in your career... Why is that? Did you or would you have considered this a bad move? A dead-end?
I know the essential draw-back: the "full time" class load is nearly twice that of a state college or university, so there'd be no time to write and publish or to conduct research to develop lectures (and, so, my C.V. wouldn't grow much). But I do have a friend who has been on tenure track (with only a Master's) at SF City for nearly 4 years and is relatively happy, making good money, and has been encouraged by the administration to pursue her PhD. My mom, on the other hand, taught a few classes at JCs here and there for years without much security. Finally, in her mid- 40s, she earned a position at San Jose State and has been there for nearly 10 years now... but with no tenure in sight.
I don't know... for someone like me -- stubborn and stationary -- what is the best road to an academic job with a reasonable amount of security?
can you give soulstrut a shoutout at these upcoming interviews????
ps. sounds like you know what to do.trust instincts
Hi Neta,
Limiting your mobility is risky early in your career because your academic record may be limited in a VERY competitive job market. Plus, you assume that there will be available openings in a very limited geographic area. There are some options such as (a) lectureships, where you job is to teach say 4 course a semester and usually large lecture courses, (b) teach junior college, or (c) community college. All three of these involve a lot of teaching with virtually NO research opportunities. The downsides are lower pay, teaching low-level, large-section prerequisite courses, and for lectureships, less job security. Some lectureships require annual renewals, meaning that in the face of reduced enrollments, the position could be cancelled. At our school, long-term lecturers can earn an unlimited appointment, which is akin to tenure which requires a review process similar to that for tenure-track professors minus the research requirement. Also, there is less mobility involved in such jobs. I hope that I've been helpful. Best of luck!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak