this is a real good post. See to me a culture is defined by having some set characterisics. There is a dress, there is a sound (music), there is art, there is dance, there is behavior, there is history. Too many of you are just focusing on the music. I think this goes beyond what jazz laid down. There wasnt people that decided to start doing art or dance and elevate that to the next level thru the jazz movement. Hip hop went beyond the music and resonated deep with people and now kids are being born into that way of life. So there is like a lineage. I dont like to put labels on people or myself and wouldnt declare that "i am hip hop", but in reality i am. It is what you make of it. I think outside of the race aspect and just think of myself as a young creative person that is trying to make the best out of what i have and try to elevate myself thru music and expression. And share common bonds with people that are into that way of life. That to me is "hip hop". And i feel that there are others that feel the same way as i do, on a international scale, so that would be a culture in my eyes. Im not reading out of the keeping it real guidebook, but that is how i get down. The music, the art, the emotion is what inspires me, so blaaaaaooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww.......
oh and that commericalized bullshit is just explotation and if you fall for that then you are a clown. So too all you myspace thugs from the burbs, you are just toys, and arent down with a culture, you are just playing yourselves like assholes and will look back 10 years later and be like, damn i had red hair and a doo rag, what the fuck was i thinking? These people are toys and dont register high with me, so i wouldnt consider them a part of any culutre, just sheep following the flock. Just misguided and 9 times outta ten, ignorant motherfuckers that dont know no better. So if they are considered within the culture, them motherfuckers are the black sheep.
at the bottom you have the bottom feaders aka jerkoffs. White kids from alabama that where tshirts hanging down to there kness. And think that the game is jesus crist.
the next step is the dudes that are somewhat into it and goto shows and tag there names in bathrooms.
next step you got the dudes that dj and make beats and rhyme, but suck cock at it.
then you got the real motherfukas like myself and a majority of preset motherfuckers on here.
and at the top of the pyramid, you got krs-one. case closed.
I caught your distinction from jump but I'm still disagreeing with it.
I think what you describe as "corp-hop" is mostly a difference of scale. I don't think, fundamentally, what appeals to people about hip-hop in 2006 is radically different from what it was in 1996 or 1986.
Sugar Hill Gang, Enjoy, et. al. These labels were focused on making money off of street culture. The times weren't more innocent - they were more naive. The difference now is that companies have gotten much sharper in their game but again, *the game remains the same*.
And again, I don't at all see how there's a new corporate dynamic that's compromised the original set of values considering that - as you agree - the original set of values are the same now as they were then.
Ping pong ball back to you.
As a totally unrelated aside, Odub, what are you doing right now? I always picture people at their computers and multi-tasking between various things that fits my idea of their internet/real persona. I imagine you to be having office hours with a painfully bad writer and typing on SS at the same time.
I'm making eggs and in my pajamas. Yes its 12:36pm. I'm re-embracing a flexible student schedule and I love it.
I'm having office hours with a painfully large set of papers to grade and needing distraction. Hence, Strut time.
aight there chief. thanks for contributing jack shit. And your right, i have to correct myself, there is jazz dance, swing, and all that other malarky. But aint nothing like bboying. AIGHT? I was mainly talking about the art though and trying to make parallels to graffiti. Graff kinda got lumped in with the whole hip hop thing, but it is a part of it. In my 5 minutes of research though, the only jazz art i could find are portraits of art blakley and miles. Didnt seem to be a whole artistic movement along the lines as the way graff internationally blew up.
aight there chief. thanks for contributing jack shit. And your right, i have to correct myself, there is jazz dance, swing, and all that other malarky. But aint nothing like bboying. AIGHT? I was mainly talking about the art though and trying to make parallels to graffiti. Graff kinda got lumped in with the whole hip hop thing, but it is a part of it. In my 5 minutes of research though, the only jazz art i could find are portraits of art blakley and miles. Didnt seem to be a whole artistic movement along the lines as the way graff internationally blew up.
Dude seriously I would love to sit here and help you understand the harlem rennaisance, jazz dance, and so many other aspects of life that were impacted by jazz music and the culture surrounding it. But I have more pressing matters at hand.
thats cool there toughguy. Im really not in the mood to argue some stoned opinons that i made on a messageboard about the validity of hip hop as a culture. I do stand corrected though and now im going to have to research all this voodoo you speak off.
jazz = modern music for the machine age. To varying extents, it was connected to movements in art, film, architecture and literature, sometimes bogusly, sometimes not. Hip Hop had a good run but didn't live up to its potential, for one rea$on or another.
There wasnt people that decided to start doing art or dance and elevate that to the next level thru the jazz movement.
This statement is totally inaccurate.
Here's some names to get ya started
Romare Bearden Katherine Dunham Josephine Baker Stuart Davis Jack Kerouac Pearl Primus
see thats more like it. Not trying to pull someones card via internet. Dropping knowledge instead of just calling out mistakes. But would you really consider kerouac under the jazz wing?
And again, I don't at all see how there's a new corporate dynamic that's compromised the original set of values considering that - as you agree - the original set of values are the same now as they were then.
Pong
: The values might be the same, but they certainly have been augmented such that money dominates the scene. You openly admit the corporate game has got much sharper and systematic in regulating hip-hop music and, by extension, hip-hop culture. That money is stifling to the majority individual expression and strangles the legitimate fun that I'm waxing nostalgic about. Yes I'm making a value judgement, but come on, if you have half a heart you gotta agree with me.
The values might be the same, but they certainly have been augmented such that money dominates the scene. You openly admit the corporate game has got much sharper and systematic in regulating hip-hop music and, by extension, hip-hop culture. That money is stifling to the majority individual expression and strangles the legitimate fun that I'm waxing nostalgic about. Yes I'm making a value judgement, but come on, if you have half a heart you gotta agree with me.
Gnick Gnat,
I don't agree with you, at least not in the way I think you want to be agreed with.
I mean, this would be a 10 pager in and of itself but how has money "strangled" hip-hop's creativity? I still see people (disconnected as I may be) who get geeked off of engaging in and performing hip-hop regardless if there's a check waiting for them at the end of it.
I personally may not like all the hip-hop that's out there right now but I don't attribute that solely to the idea that corporations have killed the hip-hop I used to like (I think a lot of artists killed themselves off without needing some A&R to pull the trigger). Kit's insulting to the millions of people who still get excited over shit they hear for me to declare, "naw son, that's not hip-hop...you bugging out to corp-hop."
Maybe this is just a reflection of a hip-hop-ist vs. populist perspective that's similar to what we've seen with rockists vs. populists.
Last comment before I run off to class (to explain the pros and cons of drug legalization): as any culture ages, change happens. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But when it comes to the relat. b/t hip-hop and capital, that's been there all along. I don't think hip-hop's ups and downs can be solely laid at the feet of industry even if, sure, they play a role.
There wasnt people that decided to start doing art or dance and elevate that to the next level thru the jazz movement.
This statement is totally inaccurate.
Here's some names to get ya started
Romare Bearden Katherine Dunham Josephine Baker Stuart Davis Jack Kerouac Pearl Primus
see thats more like it. Not trying to pull someones card via internet. Dropping knowledge instead of just calling out mistakes. But would you really consider kerouac under the jazz wing?
Sure, that whole scene was about romanticizing the new Jazz and it's makers....you really think John Coltrane's innovations would have been listened to/purchased by college students in the 60s and 70s (and supporting the music by being one of it's largest sales bases) if Kerouac hadn't been idolizing and incorporating bebop and Charlie Parker in the 50s? Kerouac and the Beats are a huge part of the mainstreaming of that subculture about a decade after they were in the thick of it. It took a long time back then.
And for the record and with all due respect, anyone completely seperating art and commerce isn't accepting the whole picture.
It's been a while since we've opened this particular can of worms.
I vote no.
It's a musical genre, period. You can argue that the four elements make it a culture, but I call bullshit on that, too. Reggae has DJs, MCs, specific dances, and--if you count L.A. Lewis--grafitti (joking). But no one says, "I'm reggae! Dancehall is something you do, reggae is something you live." The same argument could be made for country music. And it would also be ridiculous.
And don't try to tell me that "urban black culture" is hip-hop culture. That's narrow-minded and--here you go--racist. I know plenty of black people who live in cities who hate hip-hop.
Please add on until page 10 is reached.
hip hop is a culture.......sold by companies, otherwise to me it is just music.
Very interesting thread and highly entertaining content and the big dogs on this forum come with very accurate statements. I don't wanna go into what you wrote too much, but only wanna add that I understand most points of views here. What I have now are just some points to ponder in order to get it to page 10...
Cab Calloway was what you could call a bboy around his time (think minnie the moocher)
Everybody nowadays has their ???own??? hiphop
Because of that, it has become an almost impossible task to Dj ???HipHop??? music in a club nowadays...
2pac and Biggie are old school now
Biz Markie once said ???everybody has their own old school???
Play a big daddy kane record in a club and a girl will come and ask you to ???play something that???s hiphop??? and she will think of the pussycatdolls
Although corporations suck the life out of hiphop, they also create jobs to live from (clothing, design, and, yes, music)
japanese businessmen were always involved from the very beginning
Comments
at the bottom you have the bottom feaders aka jerkoffs. White kids from alabama that where tshirts hanging down to there kness. And think that the game is jesus crist.
the next step is the dudes that are somewhat into it and goto shows and tag there names in bathrooms.
next step you got the dudes that dj and make beats and rhyme, but suck cock at it.
then you got the real motherfukas like myself and a majority of preset motherfuckers on here.
and at the top of the pyramid, you got krs-one. case closed.
I caught your distinction from jump but I'm still disagreeing with it.
I think what you describe as "corp-hop" is mostly a difference of scale. I don't think, fundamentally, what appeals to people about hip-hop in 2006 is radically different from what it was in 1996 or 1986.
Sugar Hill Gang, Enjoy, et. al. These labels were focused on making money off of street culture. The times weren't more innocent - they were more naive. The difference now is that companies have gotten much sharper in their game but again, *the game remains the same*.
And again, I don't at all see how there's a new corporate dynamic that's compromised the original set of values considering that - as you agree - the original set of values are the same now as they were then.
Ping pong ball back to you.
I'm having office hours with a painfully large set of papers to grade and needing distraction. Hence, Strut time.
This statement is totally inaccurate.
There was once this minor little thing called the HARLEM RENAISSANCE. Maybe you've heard of it.
He doesn't care about that shit. Besides, James Baldwin was hella gay.
Dude seriously I would love to sit here and help you understand the harlem rennaisance, jazz dance, and so many other aspects of life that were impacted by jazz music and the culture surrounding it. But I have more pressing matters at hand.
AIGHT?
AIGHHHHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's some names to get ya started
Romare Bearden
Katherine Dunham
Josephine Baker
Stuart Davis
Jack Kerouac
Pearl Primus
see thats more like it. Not trying to pull someones card via internet. Dropping knowledge instead of just calling out mistakes. But would you really consider kerouac under the jazz wing?
Has he offered any statements that aren't?
:
The values might be the same, but they certainly have been augmented such that money dominates the scene. You openly admit the corporate game has got much sharper and systematic in regulating hip-hop music and, by extension, hip-hop culture. That money is stifling to the majority individual expression and strangles the legitimate fun that I'm waxing nostalgic about. Yes I'm making a value judgement, but come on, if you have half a heart you gotta agree with me.
Gnick Gnat,
I don't agree with you, at least not in the way I think you want to be agreed with.
I mean, this would be a 10 pager in and of itself but how has money "strangled" hip-hop's creativity? I still see people (disconnected as I may be) who get geeked off of engaging in and performing hip-hop regardless if there's a check waiting for them at the end of it.
I personally may not like all the hip-hop that's out there right now but I don't attribute that solely to the idea that corporations have killed the hip-hop I used to like (I think a lot of artists killed themselves off without needing some A&R to pull the trigger). Kit's insulting to the millions of people who still get excited over shit they hear for me to declare, "naw son, that's not hip-hop...you bugging out to corp-hop."
Maybe this is just a reflection of a hip-hop-ist vs. populist perspective that's similar to what we've seen with rockists vs. populists.
Last comment before I run off to class (to explain the pros and cons of drug legalization): as any culture ages, change happens. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But when it comes to the relat. b/t hip-hop and capital, that's been there all along. I don't think hip-hop's ups and downs can be solely laid at the feet of industry even if, sure, they play a role.
- spidey
Sure, that whole scene was about romanticizing the new Jazz and it's makers....you really think John Coltrane's innovations would have been listened to/purchased by college students in the 60s and 70s (and supporting the music by being one of it's largest sales bases) if Kerouac hadn't been idolizing and incorporating bebop and Charlie Parker in the 50s? Kerouac and the Beats are a huge part of the mainstreaming of that subculture about a decade after they were in the thick of it. It took a long time back then.
And for the record and with all due respect, anyone completely seperating art and commerce isn't accepting the whole picture.
[reynaldo]Why would anyone partake of art that isn't worth paying for?[/reynaldo]
no
hip hop is a culture.......sold by companies, otherwise to me it is just music.
Cab Calloway was what you could call a bboy around his time (think minnie the moocher)
Everybody nowadays has their ???own??? hiphop
Because of that, it has become an almost impossible task to Dj ???HipHop??? music in a club nowadays...
2pac and Biggie are old school now
Biz Markie once said ???everybody has their own old school???
Play a big daddy kane record in a club and a girl will come and ask you to ???play something that???s hiphop??? and she will think of the pussycatdolls
Although corporations suck the life out of hiphop, they also create jobs to live from (clothing, design, and, yes, music)
japanese businessmen were always involved from the very beginning