ESPN Lists The NBA's Top Players(NRR)

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  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Kareem had one of the best Jazz collections in the world until it was destroyed when his house in L.A. burned down!!



  • Blasphemy!!!! NBA's all time leading scorer! 3 titles with UCLA, how many titles with the Lakers? THE most unstoppable shot in b-ball history, the SKY HOOK! They changed the rules in the NCAA's because he was scoring so much on people!

    he owes magic for most of the points he scored in the last 5 years of his career. i agree the skyhook was unstoppable, but i think most teams would rather have kareem take that ugly hook than magic penetrate and dish for a layup.

    overrated. def not in the same league as Wilt. if you read Wilt's first book, he tbasically says kareem can't hold his jock and is a huge fraud.

    How about all the titles and points at UCLA and the Bucks and pre-Magic Lakers???? You need to learn!

    he was over 7 feet tall! your right though. i never saw him play in college or with the bucks. however, you have to admit that in the mid-80s, not only was he bad, but he was painful to watch as part of "showtime".

    what rules did the ncaa change while kareem was there? the only one i can think of is the no-dunk rule, but i think they did that before he got there. all the other rule changes were as a result of wilt (3 second rule, cant jump over the lane on a free throw, no goaltending...that might be pre-wilt)

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts

    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Run and Gun.

    the admiral....as in david robinson!!!!!

    i like the rest of your list though. my center would be hakeem.

    Seriously...they wouldn't stand a chance.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    he owes magic for most of the points he scored in the last 5 years of his career. i agree the skyhook was unstoppable, but i think most teams would rather have kareem take that ugly hook than magic penetrate and dish for a layup.

    overrated. def not in the same league as Wilt. if you read Wilt's first book, he tbasically says kareem can't hold his jock and is a huge fraud.

    You should never talk about basketball again.


  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    Wilt
    Kareem
    Elgin Baylor
    Jerry West
    Shaq

    VS
    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Shaq - C Robinson
    Wilt - PF Barkley
    Kareem - SF Magic
    Baylor - SG Jordan
    West - PG Kobe

    Rebound advantage to the Lakers team.

  • theory9theory9 1,128 Posts

    Wilt
    Kareem
    Elgin Baylor
    Jerry West
    Shaq

    VS
    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Shaq - C Robinson
    Wilt - PF Barkley
    Kareem - SF Magic
    Baylor - SG Jordan
    West - PG Kobe

    Rebound advantage to the Lakers team.

    Yeah, but Jordan's team can just run them into the ground. The 4th quarter advantage to Jordan's team.



  • You should never talk about basketball again.


    apparently, all 3 of kareem's fans are on soulstrut.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts

    Relying on Sports Illustrated for NBA analysis is almost as bad as relying on Fox for Bush administration news.

    Plaese to check out Slam magazine.

    Plaese to don't.

    I think Isiah's GM strategy is limited to thumbing through Slam regularly.

    Seriously how many of these issues have you actually read through? It's the general public that buys into the crap that big media companies provide. Facts are boring. Lop-sided opinions sell.

    SLAM has more personal and unbiased looks into a player than any SI article can provide. There's a reason ESPN started programs like "Why you can't blame...". To inform the otherwise oblivious masses about the other (generaly disregarded) side of the story.


    The opinions I quoted were those of NBA scouts that work for NBA teams. I guess you probably know more than they do right?

    As far as Slam goes. I like the mag and have a subscription, but to say "unbiased" ???? Give me a fuckin break! They kiss ass almost every player they write about. Have they ever said anything bad about any big name player? And how many times have they tried to pump up players that have been total flops???
    I thought I was talking to Faux Rillz. But anyway "in game 7, his game was unbalanced" is a nit-picky way to criticize the number two playa in the da league.

    I said SLAM is unbiased in the sense that they uncover a player's life and where they're coming from. Not just on some "he hogs the ball", "we hate him, just like everyone else" ish.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts

    Wilt
    Kareem
    Elgin Baylor
    Jerry West
    Shaq

    VS
    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Shaq - C Robinson
    Wilt - PF Barkley
    Kareem - SF Magic
    Baylor - SG Jordan
    West - PG Kobe

    Rebound advantage to the Lakers team.

    Yeah, but Jordan's team can just run them into the ground. The 4th quarter advantage to Jordan's team.

    So it would be Team Big Daddy vs Team Air Jordan. Rockadelic, your squad will lose because Shaq will cause all kinds of problems telling Wilt to pass the rock, and to Jerry West, "If I were playing earlier, they would use my siloutte as the NBA logo".

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts


    You should never talk about basketball again.


    apparently, all 3 of kareem's fans are on soulstrut.

    Apparently one of Jason Williams Fan Club is here on tha strut.

    Ok son, I'm gonna keep it real Bill Bixby for yo ass.

    I'm not old enuff to have seen him in Milwaukee, but Alcindor is arguably the GOAT. I'm no Fan but sayin hes overrated is crazy. You need to do some research.
    Money was legend before he went to UCLA.

    We wont even talk about the Footprints on Bruce Lee's jumpsuit.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    Wilt
    Kareem
    Elgin Baylor
    Jerry West
    Shaq

    VS
    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Shaq - C Robinson
    Wilt - PF Barkley
    Kareem - SF Magic
    Baylor - SG Jordan
    West - PG Kobe

    Rebound advantage to the Lakers team.

    Yeah, but Jordan's team can just run them into the ground. The 4th quarter advantage to Jordan's team.

    So it would be Team Big Daddy vs Team Air Jordan. Rockadelic, your squad will lose because Shaq will cause all kinds of problems telling Wilt to pass the rock, and to Jerry West, "If I were playing earlier, they would use my siloutte as the NBA logo".

    Yeah - the 90's team is more balanced, plus Shaq is the only one who couldnt keep up if the tempo got faster.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    Wilt
    Kareem
    Elgin Baylor
    Jerry West
    Shaq

    VS
    Air
    Magic
    Kobe
    The Admiral
    Barkley

    Shaq - C Robinson
    Wilt - PF Barkley
    Kareem - SF Magic
    Baylor - SG Jordan
    West - PG Kobe

    The Dream
    Malone
    Bird
    The Human Highlight Film
    Zeke


  • I'm not old enuff to have seen him in Milwaukee, but Alcindor is arguably the GOAT. I'm no Fan but sayin hes overrated is crazy. You need to do some research.
    Money was legend before he went to UCLA.

    there's no doubt he was a legend. he was also over 7 feet tall with decent athleticism, playing in a league that didnt look like the nba of today.

    but... nobody who saw Wilt play would call Kareem the GOAT at his position. wilt's overall stats are better. kareem stayed on past his prime to get that scoring title and cash checks. wilt could have averaged over 40 ppg his entire career but took a backseat to win championships. he was also the only center to ever lead the league in assists. do your research son.

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    From the new Sports Illustrated which focuses on the NBA and team rankings.

    Here's how an NBA scout sees Kobe:

    "He's a great talent, but in terms of making his team better, I'd rank Kobe Bryant in the bottom half of the top 10. When he strikes a happy medium between himself and his teammates he's phenomenal. But it was clear that he didn't know how to create that balance in Game 7 against Phoenix, when he was accused of not doing enough."

    A scout Stephon Marbury:

    "Stephon Marbury is a shoot-first point guard who can't help but make bad decisions, with the result being that every team that he's left has improved in his absence."

    A scout on Bonzi Wells joining the Rockets:

    "The Rockets have so many good citizens that Bonzi Wells will be O.K. It reminds me of the old quote from Al McGuire: You can afford to have one donkey, but you can't have two because then they'll breed."

    Relying on Sports Illustrated for NBA analysis is almost as bad as relying on Fox for Bush administration news.

    Plaese to check out Slam magazine.

    Plaese to don't.

    I think Isiah's GM strategy is limited to thumbing through Slam regularly.

    Seriously how many of these issues have you actually read through?

    Oh, about fifty; I had a subscription for a few years. It used to be a little better.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    I'm not old enuff to have seen him in Milwaukee, but Alcindor is arguably the GOAT. I'm no Fan but sayin hes overrated is crazy. You need to do some research.
    Money was legend before he went to UCLA.

    there's no doubt he was a legend. he was also over 7 feet tall with decent athleticism, playing in a league that didnt look like the nba of today.

    but... nobody who saw Wilt play would call Kareem the GOAT at his position. wilt's overall stats are better. kareem stayed on past his prime to get that scoring title and cash checks. wilt could have averaged over 40 ppg his entire career but took a backseat to win championships. he was also the only center to ever lead the league in assists. do your research son.

    Kareem 5 rings
    Wilt 2 rings

    Whatever.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    playing in a league that didnt look like the nba of today.

    This is fact.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Oh, about fifty; I had a subscription for a few years. It used to be a little better.

    True.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Hey Keith, is Batmon giving you a hard time? Man, Batmon couldn't win in a one-on-one against me, even if he were wearing his Foamposites, and I had a broken leg!

    And the season hasn't even started....

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Oh, about fifty; I had a subscription for a few years. It used to be a little better.

    True.

    If we're talkin' Slam style........

    Gimme...

    PeeWee Kirkland
    Earl "The Goat" Manigault
    Joe "The Destroyer" Hammond
    Herman "The Helicopter" Knowings
    Connie Hawkins

    At Rucker Park at 8:30 any Summer Night

    The story of Pee Wee's street ball showdown with Dr. J is the stuff legends are made of.

    I LOVE Slam but I recognize that they romanticize the game more than analyze it.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Oh, about fifty; I had a subscription for a few years. It used to be a little better.

    True.

    If we're talkin' Slam style........

    Gimme...

    PeeWee Kirkland
    Earl "The Goat" Manigault
    Joe "The Destroyer" Hammond
    Herman "The Helicopter" Knowings
    Connie Hawkins

    At Rucker Park at 8:30 any Summer Night

    The story of Pee Wee's street ball showdown with Dr. J is the stuff legends are made of.

    I LOVE Slam but I recognize that they romanticize the game more than analyze it.

    Here's my Rucker Squad:

    Rafer Alston
    Alimoe
    The Bone Collector
    Sebastian Telfair
    Stephon Marbury


    I don't know any big men....

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    So many responses so I'll try to cover all of them here. Hopefully I'll get through everything.

    1) Did Kareem just collect checks at the end of his career? To me, Kareem played for one purpose from his high school years until the end with the Lakers, that was winning. He played until he was 40 and he couldn't play anymore. He stuck around because the Lakers were still title contenders. I never EVER thought he was playing for the $$$.

    2) The NBA scout on Kobe, I think he was using that last game in the playoffs as an EXAMPLE of his year. Namely that Kobe still hasn't figured out how to balance his individual talents and integrate them within a team. He still plays too much me first.

    3) Slam magazine, I've had a subscription since I picked up the first issue at a newstand. I still have that subscription, but for all intense and purposes, they have become a hype machine. I don't remember a single time they have every said anything bad about a player, and they've covered some truly crappy ones talking about how they were the "real deal." Case in point, this fool, Darius Miles. They put him on the cover once when they claimed the Clippers had arrived and did at least one full article just on him when he was with the Cavs. Might have actually included him more. The guy is a big NOTHING. Yet he got hyped like hell by Slam.



    4) Did Kareem get most of his points because of Magic? Kareem was a classic post guy. He got hardly any of his points running the break with Magic and getting an easy lay-up or dunk. Almost all of his points from the day he entered the league were from getting the ball in the post and then making a move. Last time I checked, ALL post players depend on smaller players to give them an entry pass before they can make a move to score a basket.

    5) Kareem, OVERRATED? My God, what has the world come to when this is even mentioned. Lets go over the highlights of Kareem's career:

    High School:

    He played at Power Memorial in NYC from 1962-65 where he lettered all four years. He was All NYC from 1963-65, and a High School All American for those same years, and a consensus All American. His High school team had a 95-6 record, and a 71-game winning streak![/b] His first two years his team was undefeated and they won 3 NYC Catholic school titles. He was one of the most highly sought after High School players in the country when he graduated.

    College: UCLA

    Coach John Wooden said that Kareem was the most valuable college player EVER. He said that he could raise a team above its basic talents to a new level. Kareem could arguably be considered the greatest college center ever.

    When he went to college freshmen were inelligable to play. His first game as a sophmore he scored 56 points against Cal Berkeley and his team finished 26-0 winning an NCAA title. In total he won a title all 3 years he could play in college. He played in one of the greatest college games in history versus Houston where he lost to Elvin Hayes, which was UCLA's first loss in 47 straight games.

    He was was the Spoting News College Player of the Year 1967 & 1969. He was a 3-time First Team All-American from 1967-69, 2-time National Player of the Year 1967 & 69, 3-time NCAA Tourny MVP 1967-69, Naismith Winner 1969, 3 time NCAA Champion 1967-69 and finished with an 88-2 record![/b] When he graduated he was the 6th highest scorer in history with a 26.4 ppg avg, led the NCAA in FG% in 1967 and 69.

    NBA:

    He got drafted as the #1 pick in the draft by the Milwaukee Bucks where he played from 1969-75, and then went to the Lakers from 1975-89. He finished as the Rookie of the Year in the NBA, finishing 2nd in scoring and 3rd in rebounds in the League. He became MVP in 1972 and 74. He would win a total of 6 MVP awards[/b], and won a title in 1971.

    With the Lakers he went to the NBA Championships another 8 times, winning 5 more titles.

    He holds NBA records for most minutes, most points and most field goals. He was the first NBA player to play 20 seasons.[/b] He was twice NBA scoring champ in 1971 & 72, led the NBA in blocked shots 1975, 76, 79 & 80. MVP 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, NBA First Team 1971-74, 1976-77, 1980-81, 1984, & 1986, NBA All Defensive First Team 1974-75, 1979-81. NBA Finals MVP 1971 and 1985. Was an All-Star 18 times.

    Pat Riley said he was the greatest player of all time.

    Now tell me again about how he is overrated?

    6) The NBA isn't like it was then? True, the biggest difference is that when Kareem played most NBA teams had a quality to dominant big man. He did not score all those points against chopped liver. He went up against some of the great big men in NBA history: Wilt Chamberlain, Nat Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Wes Unseld, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, Robert Parish, Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma, and others.

    Case closed!

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Now tell me again about how he is overrated?

    6) The NBA isn't like it was then? True, the biggest difference is that when Kareem played most NBA teams had a quality to dominant big man. He did not score all those points against chopped liver. He went up against some of the great big men in NBA history: Wilt Chamberlain, Nat Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Wes Unseld, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, Robert Parish, Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma, and others.

    Case closed!

    Case closed is right.....

    And you young guys best believe this....

    Nate Thurmond was the 3rd or 4th best Center in the NBA in his day and he kicks Ben Wallace's ass before the game in the alley, during the game on the court and later that night at the Club.

    Today's game is faster and more athletic.

    Today's game has a "wow" factor that old school didn't.

    But DON'T underestimate the 60's-70's game

  • luckluck 4,077 Posts
    What I like is that no Bull is ranked higher than # 59 on this, and that's for their oft-6th man (Deng). No matter; we out-will teams.

    Wait until we snag the first pick in the draft and some major FA (Garnett, coming off his Prince-like contract?) next year.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    Today's game is faster and more athletic.

    Today's game has a "wow" factor that old school didn't.

    But DON'T underestimate the 60's-70's game


    Nah ROCK you know. The wow factor was always there. Connie Hawkins picked up quarters from the top of the backboard.

    Joe Hammonds scorin 72 at Rucker.

    You young muthafuckas got to do your homework and realize the "NBA" has oiled this entertainment/industry w/ the sweat of hundreds of cats who helped build this structure. We wont even get into the ABA which rejuvinated the L.
    It all flows into the future. The best cats can ball in ANY ERA.

    Can we save this shit for Nov.Whatever...............

    And as much as Wade is crazy, he got mad points from the free throw line...................................I smell ref/nba tinkering.
    Dont call me a hatter.....just sayin.

    What more athletic than Oscar Robertson averaging a triple double.

    U know.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Joe Hammonds scorin 72 at Rucker.


    Hammond jumped over a car

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    I am still worked up about this Kareem shit. Do not even get me started.Do not fuck with this man!!!!!










  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    Here's the complete report on the Lakers. Remember this is from Sports Illustrated and comes from an NBA scout that works for an opposing team.

    An opposing team's scout sizes up the Lakers

    The bottom line with the Lakers is always going to be, how well will Kobe Bryant and the rest of that team meld together. It doesn't usually seem like a happy medium -- too often it's one extreme or the other in which Kobe shoots all the time or he's giving it up all the time. How often does it hit the happy medium when it all just seems to flow on its own? It was clear in that seventh game of their series against Phoenix when he was accused of not doing enough offensively that Kobe doesn't know how to create that balance ...

    A lot of times during the regular season Kobe was given the green light to shoot whenever he pleased, and that shocked me. Maybe Phil Jackson was trying to win back Kobe's trust, because it was totally out of character for him as a coach. Ultimately the two of them are going to have to some agreement on when he should take over and when he shouldn't. Obviously Phl would love to have it the way it was in Chicago, when Michael Jordan would start the game off by getting everybody involved and as the game goes down the stretch it would become his game. But Kobe doesn't seem to grasp that whole situation ...

    Obviously Kobe is a great individual talent, but when it comes to making his team better I'd rank him in the latter half of the Top 10. There are games I've seen him orchestrate the balance between himself and his teammates and when that happens he's phenomenal. But when he doesn't strike that balance he's only being unfair to himself -- there's no way he should expect himself to carry the team without a teammate like Shaq, or Scottie Pippen for that matter. I mean, the supporting cast Kobe has in LA is nowhere near as good as what Michael had in Chicago. But then maybe that's why he doesn't try to blend them in more often -- because he doesn't trust them ...

    I don't see Lamar Odom having a future as the No. 2 guy behind Bryant. Odom is a guy who needs the ball in his hands, and on this team that isn't going to happen. If you're putting him in positions where he's going to rely on screens and cutting and spacing, that's not his game. He's more of a guy fits the modern NBA game than the triangle: He has to handle the ball, run pick and roll, or get into the post. They'd better hope that another year in the triangle will help him adapt, because it's a major issue for them to incorporate him and get more out of him than they've gotten so far ...

    Obviously they're going into this summer with cap space, but I wonder how many guys would want to play with Kobe. I also look at their current roster and I don't see a lot of guys who could contribute toward a future championship playing the triangle. The guys they'd want to build around would probably be Bryant, Vladimir Radmanovic, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and possibly Ronny Turiaf. I wouldn't put Odom on that list ...

    Radmanovic is a really good player, and an intriguing shooter to put alongside Kobe. Radmanovic is a very good runner in the open court, he's one of the better shooters in the league and if you close out on him he can take it hard to the hoop and finish. He and Odom should divide up most of the minutes at the two forward spots, with Odom having to guard the better offensive opponent ...

    I think Mihm is their best young big man. He fits into their style as someone who can pass and knows how to play the game. He can fit in like a Luc Longley type, the kind of guy who can adapt to playing alongside a supserstar. Mihm seems like the kind of guy who can put up with Bryant taking lot of shots, setting picks for him and not getting the pass even if he's wide open. He's a real solid guy and they missed him in the playoffs last year when he was injured ...

    I just don't see much of a future for Kwame Brown there. His hands are bad, as long as you put a defender around him he's going to have trouble getting the ball to the rim because he lacks touch and skill, and on top of everything he makes bad decisions. It killed him being the No. 1 draft pick, because his niche is probably going to be as a backup big man who needs to accept his limitations and earn minutes with his effort ...

    Andrew Bynum, who was their rookie 7-footer last year out of high school, still has a long, long way to go. He is a really big guy with great size, but he has played nothing close to the competitive level that he finds himself in now. The jump was so significant that it's still hard to tell how much he will improve or whether he'll be a good fit for the triangle. He moves pretty well for his size, but if you keep the pressure on him he'll miss shots. He was easily knocked off his shot because he lacked strength, and his defense laterally was not very good. His offense was pretty much limited to a right hook, but he's intriguing enough that you want to keep watching him. ...

    They like Turiaf some because of his energy, though I don't see a lot of improvement in him. He has trouble getting minutes for the French national team ...

    They seem to have a love-hate thing for Brian Cook, who is strictly a perimeter shooter. He's long as hell and his shooting is really an important factor that keeps the floor spread for Kobe. Anytime he sets up in the pick and roll he causes huge problems in tandem with a guard who can shoot ...

    Inconsistency is a problem for Walton, though the triangle suits his game very well. He's a great passer who can help you for up to 25 minutes, but if he's playing more than that you'll notice diminishing returns ...

    Maurice Evans is a nice athletic addition in place of Devean George. Their bench scoring was 19.2 ppg, which is really low, so he could be an important piece ...

    Smush Parker had a surprising year before he dropped off during the playoffs. Phil doesn't need a true point guard in his backcourt and Smush fills that bill as a guy who provides the size that Phil is looking for and the abillity to knock down shots from time to time. Though I wouldn't put money on Parker to keep making those shots -- when he was performing well last year I always had the impression that he was playing over his head. >>

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Motown, seriously. Why are you so damn preoccupied with the Lakers and their demise?
    That's pretty pitiful man....it really is.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    Motown, seriously. Why are you so damn preoccupied with the Lakers and their demise?
    That's pretty pitiful man....it really is.

    You sound a bit insecure.

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,329 Posts
    Motown, seriously. Why are you so damn preoccupied with the Lakers and their demise?
    That's pretty pitiful man....it really is.

    You sound a bit insecure.

    and you're 35 or something right?
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