ESPN Lists The NBA's Top Players(NRR)

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  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Playing basketball without a true center is like every team in the NFL going to the Wishbone offense!!!!

    But that's the new direction the NBA is going. There's a gang of articles the season about the "faster/more entertaining" offense ala Phoenix. Shit has yes to translate to Rings, but we'll see. That run and gun shit only goes so far......but the kids like that shit.

  • The real difference between the 60's/70's game and today's game is the "TRUE" Center. The center that played the low post, filled the middle and would never take a shot further than 10 feet. The way the game was meant to be played. Over a ten year stretch you could have seen these TRUE centers...
    Kareem
    Wilt
    Willis Reed
    Bill Russell
    Wes Unseld
    Walt Bellamy
    Artis Gilmore
    Nate Thurmond
    Bob Lanier
    Marvin "The Human Erasor" Webster


    And those were just the good ones.....and ANY of those guys would be in the Top 3 Centers playing today as all the NBA has in the way of true centers is Shaq and possibly Tim Duncan.

    Are any of the players on that list (other than wilt and kareem) over 6' 9"?

    The game has changed. To be a an effective "true" back-to-the-basket big man in 2006, you need to be a monster like shaq or have incredible low post moves and a soft touch like Duncan....and oh yea, still be close to 7ft or taller. The nba is bigger, faster and stronger now. I agree that an effective offense has to utilize the post, but now you have post players who get the ball and square up to the hoop, instead of backing in.

    Its a lot easier to tie up a big man when he plays like a "true" center. on the flipside, try to stop a big guy who can square up to the hoop. its a different story.

    Enough with the 60s and 70s players. yes, there were some stars, but the overall talent today is MUCH better (see bigger, faster, stronger). I guarantee that 80% of the nba rosters in the 60s and 70s would not cut it in the current nba. Fundamentals are overrated.



    Old-heads:

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Fundamentals are overrated.

    You should really stop posting in this thread.

  • Fundamentals are overrated.

    You should really stop posting in this thread.

    the criticism towards current players is that they lack fundamentals, right? the truth is that, as a whole, basketball in 2006 is leaps and bounds above basketball in the 60s and 70s. therefore, fundamentals cannot be a good way to measure overall skill.

    and dude, i think thats the second time you said i dont know anything about basketball.

    please list your basketball credentials, than i'll pm you mine...and then you can stop posting forever about hoops.

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    please list your basketball credentials, than i'll pm you mine...and then you can stop posting forever about hoops.

    What are you... a Basketball Scientist???

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts

    please list your basketball credentials, than i'll pm you mine...and then you can stop posting forever about hoops.

    My credentials include knowing the following...

    Wilt - 7:2
    Kareem 7:2
    Artis Gilmore 7:3
    Marvin Webster 7:1
    Bob Lanier 6:11
    Nate Thurmond 6:11


    Ben Wallace 6:9


    So explain to me about how today's players are bigger(They're not)and how fundamentals like shooting, passing and defense are over rated.

    Dude, really....you're basketball knowledge seems to be on the same level as your namesakes talent.

    Today's players are more athletic...no question........Flashier....no question....maybe even more entertaining...but like I said earlier, any of those ten LARGE Centers from the 60's and 70's would be in the Top 3 centers if they played today.....prove me wrong....Today you have Shaq, Duncan and an unproven Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard.....where is all the SIZE???

  • please list your basketball credentials, than i'll pm you mine...and then you can stop posting forever about hoops.

    What are you... a Basketball Scientist???


    i was being facetious in response to batmon, the basketball authority, schooling me as to how i know so little about hoops that i should stop posting.


  • Artis Gilmore 7:3
    Marvin Webster 7:1
    Bob Lanier 6:11
    Nate Thurmond 6:11


    Ben Wallace 6:9


    So explain to me about how today's players are bigger(They're not)and how fundamentals like shooting, passing and defense are over rated.

    Dude, really....you're basketball knowledge seems to be on the same level as your namesakes talent.

    Today's players are more athletic...no question........Flashier....no question....maybe even more entertaining...but like I said earlier, any of those ten LARGE Centers from the 60's and 70's would be in the Top 3 centers if they played today.....prove me wrong....Today you have Shaq, Duncan and an unproven Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard.....where is all the SIZE???

    wilt and kareem don't count, so half of the guys you listed as big men are actually...big. one of whom never really had an nba career. next, you are trying to argue that the top big men in the nba over a 20 year period are better than the big men in 2006? i would hope so. my point is that the nba has evolved due to athleticism and while i agree that there were great players in the 50s, 60s and 70s, collectively, they don't fuck with today's game. a majority of the players from those eras would not make an nba roster in 2006.

    arguing about whether stars from the 60s could beat today's players is like talking about whether superman could beat up spiderman. its pointless. i have read a lot about wilt and think he would be an unbelievable star in the game today, but there is no way for me to prove this; nor can you prove that guys who put up numbers in the 60s and 70s would be effective in today's nba.

    do you really think the nba is too flashy? how so? i think it has actually tamed down a lot since the magic era when it was at its peak. remember, pete maravich was flashy as well. so was bob cousy! guys are jumping higher but that doesnt necessarily equate to hot-dogging.

  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    You're forgetting a few guys........
























    Artis Gilmore was 7'2". Walton was 7'. Webster 7'1". The total lack of knowledge about 70s NBA ball up in here is embarrassing. Despite the untold number of legit big men, Kareem was the player of 70s, no question. And this is coming from Portland where Walton is a legend.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    do you really think the nba is too flashy? how so? i think it has actually tamed down a lot since the magic era when it was at its peak. remember, pete maravich was flashy as well. so was bob cousy! guys are jumping higher but that doesnt necessarily equate to hot-dogging.

    I don't think I said today's players were "too" flashy....just flashier.

    Only ONE player on my list was shorter than Ben Wallace who is recognized as the third best Center in today's game. You want to downplay having 5-7 GOOD 6:11 centers in the league but you only have 2 today.

    But let's end this argument right now......If fundamentals are over rated how did the Greek National Team kick the NBA Stars asses in this past World Championship??

    With fundamentals, the same way a 60's/70's Team would kick their ass today.

    I'd rather have a guy that shoots 90% from the Free Throw Line than a guy who can do a 360 dunk.....unfortunately today's fans don't see it that way.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts


    arguing about whether stars from the 60s could beat today's players is like talking about whether superman could beat up spiderman. its pointless.

    Wanna argue whether or not Muhammad Ali could have beat the Top Heavyweights of today???

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    please list your basketball credentials, than i'll pm you mine...and then you can stop posting forever about hoops.

    What are you... a Basketball Scientist???


    i was being facetious in response to batmon, the basketball authority, schooling me as to how i know so little about hoops that i should stop posting.

    So the Greek Olympic team outjumped/outran/outdunked Anthony/Wade/LeBron?


  • I don't think I said today's players were "too" flashy....just flashier.

    Only ONE player on my list was shorter than Ben Wallace who is recognized as the third best Center in today's game. You want to downplay having 5-7 GOOD 6:11 centers in the league but you only have 2 today.

    the game has been redefined. no coach in the 50s-80s would have allowed 7 footers like Kevin Garnett, Dirk, Rasheed Wallace, etc, to develop skills outside of back-to-the-basket post moves. things changed. now the center position is basically extinct, or left for guys who were unable to develop other skills.

    if Garnett only stayed in the post he would still be a phenominal player and a "legit" center. coaches prefer that he utilizes all his skills. maybe they are right and the true center is a dinasour. regardless, your argument doesnt prove that there aren't any good players that could[/b] play the center position

    But let's end this argument right now......If fundamentals are over rated how did the Greek National Team kick the NBA Stars asses in this past World Championship??

    With fundamentals, the same way a 60's/70's Team would kick their ass today.

    I'd rather have a guy that shoots 90% from the Free Throw Line than a guy who can do a 360 dunk.....unfortunately today's fans don't see it that way.
    if your argument is that the general skill level of nba players in the 60s and 70s was better than it is now....you are on some shit!!! there were so many bums playing in the nba during that time. this might sound politically incorrect, but take a look at how many (non-foreign) white guys were in the league during the 60s and 70s.


  • maybe i missed something but all this talk of old school players and i haven't seen one mention of bill russell? hopefully I just missed it... 11 rings in 13 seasons... pretty much a GOAT if i ever heard of one.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts


    This could go on forever.....I saw both styles, I have watched Basketball intensely on every level(H.S., College and Pro) for 35 years....I give the modern day players his props....but remember, this all began with the very ignorant statement "Was Kareem ever good?"

    There is no question in my mind that the great teams of the 60's/70's like the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks would beat the Champs of the last 10 years. The 70's Knicks for instance had Earl Monroe, Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Cazzie Russell, Bill Bradley, Dave Debusshere, Phil Jackson and Dave Stallworth(not to mention Hawthorne Wingo) would sweep the 2000's Spurs Team in 4 straight.....no question....don't even bother.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    there were so many bums playing in the nba during that time.

    And there are still bums that play in the league now. Harold Minor could have jumped over most of the old guard but that didnt mean shit............He couldnt defend or shoot.

    How many top ten draft pick in the last 15 didnt amount to shit. Joe Smith anyone, Todd Day,add on.
    The cream of the crop are the cream of the crop in any era. Telfair cant shoot. Marbury doesnt make his teamates better.

    Alot of cats think a ball handling/face up bigman > Back to the basket Bigman. That has yet to be proven.
    Shaq/Mourning > Dirk.

  • Is anyone really arguing that today's players are more or even equally as fundamentally sound than the "Old Pros"/HOFers being discussed?

    And Batmon "Shaq/Mourning > Dirk" is comparing 5s to a 3. The real question is "Shaq/Mourning > Duncan or Amare"?

  • Big_StacksBig_Stacks "I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
    Hey,

    I'll take a fundamentally-sound set of vintage players any day of the damn week. Oh, and in my lists, I was naming less obvious dudes that were good than the obvious legends like Russell, Gervin, Lanier, and so on. Everyone knows them but not Randy Smith, Larry Kenon, and Spencer Haywood, dig??? Those early-mid 70's Braves had a squad for that ass.

    Peace,

    Big Stacks from Kakalak

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    And Batmon "Shaq/Mourning > Dirk" is comparing 5s to a 3. The real question is "Shaq/Mourning > Duncan or Amare"?

    But Dallas' go to big man is Dirk. He's an example of the new Face the basket big man that the L is moving towards. I'm not judging Dirk as a Center but as the "POST" player/Big man. Garnett is a PF and the "center" of O & D.

    1990 - 3 1/2 FOR 10

    PLAYER, SCHOOL/COUNTRY
    TEAM
    1.
    Derrick Coleman, Syracuse
    New Jersey
    2.
    Gary Payton, Oregon State
    Seattle
    3.
    Chris Jackson, Louisiana State
    Denver
    4.
    Dennis Scott, Georgia Tech
    Orlando
    5.
    Kendall Gill, Illinois
    Charlotte 1/2
    6.
    Felton Spencer, Louisville
    Minnesota
    7.
    Lionel Simmons, La Salle
    Sacramento
    8.
    Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount
    L.A. Clippers
    9.
    Willie Burton, Minnesota
    Miami
    10.
    Rumeal Robinson, Michigan
    Atlanta

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    1991

    4 FOR 10 Unless u wanna count Longley/Williams for Bulls rings.

    1.
    Larry Johnson UNLV
    Charlotte
    2.
    Kenny Anderson, Georgia Tech
    New Jersey
    3.
    Billy Owens, Syracuse
    Sacramento
    4.
    Dikembe Mutombo, Georgetown
    Denver
    5.
    Steve Smith, Michigan State
    Miami
    6.
    Doug Smith, Missouri
    Dallas
    7.
    Luc Longley, New Mexico
    Minnesota
    8.
    Mark Macon, Temple
    Denver
    9.
    Stacey Augmon, UNLV
    Atlanta
    10.
    Brian Williams, Arizona
    Orlando

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    1992 4.5 for 10

    1.
    Shaquille O'Neal, Louisiana State
    Orlando
    2.
    Alonzo Mourning, Georgetown
    Charlotte
    3.
    Christian Laettner, Duke
    Minnesota
    4.
    Jim Jackson, Ohio State
    Dallas
    5.
    LaPhonso Ellis, Notre Dame
    Denver
    6.
    Tom Gugliotta, North Carolina State
    Washington
    7.
    Walt Williams, Maryland
    Sacramento
    8.
    Todd Day, Arkansas
    Milwaukee
    9.
    Clarence Weatherspoon, Southern Mississippi
    Philadelphia
    10.
    Adam Keefe, Stanford
    Atlanta...............................

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    1993

    3 for 10

    1.
    Chris Webber, Michigan
    Orlando (1)
    2.
    Shawn Bradley, Brigham Young
    Philadelphia
    3.
    Anfernee Hardaway, Memphis
    Golden State (1)
    4.
    Jamal Mashburn, Kentucky
    Dallas
    5.
    Isaiah Rider, UNLV
    Minnesota
    6.
    Calbert Cheaney, Indiana
    Washington
    7.
    Bobby Hurley, Duke
    Sacramento
    8.
    Vin Baker, Hartford
    Milwaukee
    9.
    Rodney Rogers, Wake Forest
    Denver
    10.
    Lindsey Hunter, Jackson State
    Detroit

  • there were so many bums playing in the nba during that time.

    And there are still bums that play in the league now. Harold Minor could have jumped over most of the old guard but that didnt mean shit............He couldnt defend or shoot.

    How many top ten draft pick in the last 15 didnt amount to shit. Joe Smith anyone, Todd Day,add on.
    The cream of the crop are the cream of the crop in any era. Telfair cant shoot. Marbury doesnt make his teamates better.

    Alot of cats think a ball handling/face up bigman > Back to the basket Bigman. That has yet to be proven.
    Shaq/Mourning > Dirk.

    the percentage of bums in the league right now is much, much lower. the proof:


    1) there are probably 1/3 more teams than there were in the 60s and 70s. so if you are gonna tell me that there are weak players now, there better be 1/3 more of them.

    2) less players are getting drafted and even fewer are making rosters. even if we go only back to the 80s, there were a lot more college guys coming in to the league each year. shit, there used to be like 5 or 6 rounds of the nba draft. guys who were bench players on big time D-1 teams were getting drafted every year. compare that to the present, where the nba draws from an international pool and the overall competition is stronger. most players outside of the first round don't sign with nba teams, and if they do, its rare that they have an impact.

    3) now factor in that current players are bigger, stronger and faster...and tell me that the league isn't much less watered down in 2006.


    As for fundamentals....that argument was made during the jordan/barkley/isiah era too. 20 years from now, generation xyz will be saying the same thing. the game is not won on bounce passes and perfect form. i'm sure everyone here knows guys who can shoot 90% from the free throw line. why arent those guys in the nba?

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts

    1994

    4 FOR 10

    1.
    Glenn Robinson, Purdue
    Milwaukee
    2.
    Jason Kidd, California
    Dallas
    3.
    Grant Hill, Duke
    Detroit
    4.
    Donyell Marshall, Connecticut
    Minnesota
    5.
    Juwan Howard, Michigan
    Washington
    6.
    Sharone Wright, Clemson
    Philadelphia
    7.
    Lamond Murray, California
    L.A. Clippers
    8.
    Brian Grant, Xavier
    Sacramento
    9.
    Eric Montross, North Carolina
    Boston
    10.
    Eddie Jones, Temple
    L.A. Lakers


  • How many top ten draft pick in the last 15 didnt amount to shit. Joe Smith anyone, Todd Day,add on.

    you are disproving the argument that the league is more watered down today by showing all the recent lottery picks who never made it. that is my point. the league is too competitive now for even the obvious college stars to be locks for the nba.


  • 1994

    4 FOR 10


    "2) less players are getting drafted and even fewer are making rosters. even if we go only back to the 80s, there were a lot more college guys coming in to the league each year. shit, there used to be like 5 or 6 rounds of the nba draft. guys who were bench players on big time D-1 teams were getting drafted every year. compare that to the present, where the nba draws from an international pool and the overall competition is stronger. most players outside of the first round don't sign with nba teams, and if they do, its rare that they have an impact."

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    1995

    3 for 10

    1.
    Joe Smith, Maryland
    Golden State
    2.
    Antonio McDyess, Alabama
    L.A. Clippers (1)
    3.
    Jerry Stackhouse, North Carolina
    Philadelphia
    4.
    Rasheed Wallace, North Carolina
    Washington
    5.
    Kevin Garnett, Farragut Academy (Ill.)
    Minnesota
    6.
    Bryant Reeves, Oklahoma State
    Vancouver
    7.
    Damon Stoudamire, Arizona
    Toronto
    8.
    Shawn Respert, Michigan State
    Portland (2)
    9.
    Ed O'Bannon, UCLA
    New Jersey
    10.
    Kurt Thomas, Texas Christian
    Miami

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    This is a poor argument....in 1972 Portland drafted LaRue Martin WITH THE 31 PICK IN THE DRAFT.

    Championships are won by TEAMS....teams that play TEAM ball and that most definitely includes fundamentals.

    I'm still waiting to hear KVH explain how all his mega-athletic stars lost to Greece??


    1995

    3 for 10

    1.
    Joe Smith, Maryland
    Golden State
    2.
    Antonio McDyess, Alabama
    L.A. Clippers (1)
    3.
    Jerry Stackhouse, North Carolina
    Philadelphia
    4.
    Rasheed Wallace, North Carolina
    Washington
    5.
    Kevin Garnett, Farragut Academy (Ill.)
    Minnesota
    6.
    Bryant Reeves, Oklahoma State
    Vancouver
    7.
    Damon Stoudamire, Arizona
    Toronto
    8.
    Shawn Respert, Michigan State
    Portland (2)
    9.
    Ed O'Bannon, UCLA
    New Jersey
    10.
    Kurt Thomas, Texas Christian
    Miami

  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    Yeah, Randy Smith is totally forgotten but Elvin Hayes never gets any props from the current generation either b/c he wasn't flashy. He was just one awesome pure power forward. Plus, he beat Kareem in college in the "Game of the Century".

    I think the lack of team play speaks for itself at the World Championships.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    I think the lack of team play speaks for itself at the World Championships.

    "Bigger/Stronger/Faster"
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