NPR's Fresh Air interview show continues to come through with some excellent guests. Today they had Christopher Dickey from Newsweek. He thinks Israel has gotten itself into a futile war with Hezbollah that it might not come out of successfully. Here's the link to the interview which can be heard on RealAudio.
Thanks for this, this guy made a lot of good points, especially about Israel's strategy not working. He made a great point about Hezbollah making demands they know Israel will not meet and offering a ceasefire if they are met, basically PR strategy.
Israel won't find any measure of success in this. All they've done so far is convince a new generation of Arabs that they are, indeed, baby killers. And they've strengthened Hezbollah.
Johnny, I think pragmatically, you're right. But I can't see moral equivilance here. Assuming that one accepts Israels right to exist, and doesn't resort to knee jerk "this is all over two soldiers," I see this largely as Israel defending itself. I can definitely agree that they've done things that show serious disregard for life, but the fact is, Israel is using a standing army with the stated goal of defending itself, as opposed to Hezbollah, who's stated goal is the destruction of an entire country (or people?) and whose fighters hide amongst civilian populations. This is a loose-loose for Israel, they hold back, look weak and Hezbollah declares victory. They attempt to root out Hezbollah, and they end up with pictures of dead civilians and children on TV's accross the world. Am I wrong that Hezbollah gets a pass because their missles are less effective, or am I to believe that Hezbollah wouldn't blow up houses full of Israeli children given the chance? As a strong opponent of the Iraq war, it causes me pause to hear myself using some of the same justifications, and I can concede that Israel has shown some serious disregard for civilians, but this is war. In the past, Israel has made concessions, and continues to be attacked. Simply, they are being held to a different standard. Not to single out Johnny, to anyone who does think Israel has gone too far, what are a country's options when facing an enemy who calls for your country's destruction, lobs missles over the border, and hides amongst the civilian population who elected them? I agree that attempting to win over the population through bombing is almost certainly futile, but again, I think Israel sees this as a fight for survival, and I haven't heard any credible alternatives. I am not counting "Israel should chill out" or "Israel is a resort for white people, who should go home"...
Hesbollah will agree to a ceasefire if there's a prisoner swap. I think that's the way to go. Surely it'll look like a defeat for Israel but, in my opinion one has to measure that against the potential for a regional war (Syria has stated if Israel enters witihin 12 miles of Damascus they'll intervene, Iran could follow, attacks on America in Iraq,etc....) politically and image wise it's not a good look for Israel, but neither is Qana. a prisoner swap is the most pragmatic decision.
Bottom line, and some may see this as an idealistic, distant reality (which at the moment it is), but dialogue is the only way forward.
Israel have more than 2,500 'Hezbollah' (or 9,000 according to who you read) prisoners in jail which I doubt they'll hand over in exchange for the handful of Israeli troops kidnapped by Hezbollah. The thinking behind kidnapping the Israel soldiers two weeks ago was so they had bargaining chips for a prisoner exchange.
Hesbollah will agree to a ceasefire if there's a prisoner swap. I think that's the way to go. Surely it'll look like a defeat for Israel
It also means that in the future Israel could look forward to more kidnappings and murders from Hezbollah, Hamas, and any other group that has an issue with Israel in order to get their way. Unfortunately this is not an issue in which straight westernized diplomacy will work, there is a different mentality here one which sees compromise as weakness and will mostly likely try to expose and re-expose that weakness again and again.
Bottom line, and some may see this as an idealistic, distant reality (which at the moment it is), but dialogue is the only way forward.
If I came in your house killed off a couple of your family members and took some others hostage for the umpteenth time and my reasoning behind this is my belief that your family doesnt have the right to exist do you think dialogue would really create a solution? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm truly curious as to whether you think its a logical reaction to such an everyday threat
If I came in your house killed off a couple of your family members and took some others hostage for the umpteenth time and my reasoning behind this is my belief that your family doesnt have the right to exist do you think dialogue would really create a solution? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm truly curious as to whether you think its a logical reaction to such an everyday threat
This is sad but true. And within this same logic, IMO, is basically the reason why there are hundreds (?) of thousands of radicalized and desperate Palestinians who just don't care anymore. Severe unequality and racial segregation, huge unemployment rates, bad education, no hope of a better future, the "safety" wall, getting fucked over by the British, the UN, the US, neighbouring Arab countries, Israel and their own, often corrupt, government time and time again, etc. I can understand the hatred on both sides. But right now it is Israel who is shooting itself in the leg - and Hezbollah has already won.
If I came in your house killed off a couple of your family members and took some others hostage for the umpteenth time and my reasoning behind this is my belief that your family doesnt have the right to exist do you think dialogue would really create a solution? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm truly curious as to whether you think its a logical reaction to such an everyday threat
This is sad but true. And within this same logic, IMO, is basically the reason why there are hundreds (?) of thousands of radicalized and desperate Palestinians who just don't care anymore. Severe unequality and racial segregation, huge unemployment rates, bad education, no hope of a better future, the "safety" wall, getting fucked over by the British, the UN, the US, neighbouring Arab countries, Israel and their own, often corrupt, government time and time again, etc. I can understand the hatred on both sides. But right now it is Israel who is shooting itself in the leg - and Hezbollah has already won.
like I said on day one of the war Israel is fucked either way. They can't look good in this no matter what the outcome.
Hezbollah really has nothing to lose accept maybe their identity as a major S.Lebanese organization, but even if that is broken up I'm sure in a few years another group will come along and take its place.
If I came in your house killed off a couple of your family members and took some others hostage for the umpteenth time and my reasoning behind this is my belief that your family doesnt have the right to exist do you think dialogue would really create a solution? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm truly curious as to whether you think its a logical reaction to such an everyday threat
If you're asking what a logical reaction is, it depends on what sort of logic you're refering to. Emotionally, no, I wouldn't want any dialogue. But violence begets violence. The logic of violence spreads like wildfire and could consume us all. Given nuclear technology this sort of back and forth is not sustainable and pragmatically the logical thing to do is get Israelis and Arabs, primarily Palestinians in a dialogue with one another, because right now they're not seeing each other as human beings, they're seeing each other as threats to their own existence and as long as that's the case there won't be peace.
BEIRUT (Reuters) - An Israeli air strike killed at least 33 farm workers in northeastern Lebanon on Friday and Hizbollah fired scores of rockets into Israel in a worsening conflict that world powers have failed to halt.
Most of the dead and 20 wounded were taken to nearby Syria after the raid near Qaa in the Bekaa Valley. At least three rockets hit a farm where workers, mostly Syrian Kurds, were loading plums and peaches on to trucks, local officials said.
And as far as being astoundingly offended by my envisioning Israel a resort for white people, sadly, my friend, the fact that it offended you doesn't make my characterization any less astoundingly accurate. A white person can buy a ticket to this resort merely by saying "I am a Jew," while people indigenous to the area are all too often relegated to looking in through the gates. The retort to this observation is often that I'm being racist or culturally insensitive.
My response is not to accuse of you racism or cultural insensitivity. Instead, I think you're extremely condescending and very likely wilfully blind. Despite your continuous characterisation of Israel as a resort for white people, my family in Israel, of various skin colours (which is apparently of utmost relevance to your analysis of the place), do not go about their lives as if they are on vacation, enjoying their stay in Club Med Israel. Israel is their home. To describe their home as a resort may be appropriate within your understanding of the world, but it does not change the fact that it's just that.
You continue to hold that Israel exists only for white people. Like rootless, I'll dispute this vehemently. Ultimately, however, I care only that a country exists for me and mine, Jews. I'm loathe to allow anti-Semitism to define my Jewish identity, but I cannot ignore that my grandmother, who's still alive and kicking, spent her late teens in Auschwitz. Little more than sixty years separate me from the gas chamber. The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go. I doubt very much that you can imagine the difference this makes in my life. To me, it's a simple pragmatism--or realpolitik, if you prefer--that trumps any post-colonial, anti-imperialist screed: Israel means I have a measure of security that my people haven't had for much of recorded history and so, at a fundamental level, I avowedly support and rely on this particular "white resort's" existance, dubious military strategy notwithstanding.
This ends up being a go nowhere argument because I keep saying that the only people in Israel with full social agency are white, in turn the people who respond to me either ignore, sidestep, or distort what I've written and then reemphasize the futility of digging up past events. The most delusional of responders insist something logically equivalent to "No Jew is white," all the while indicting my race analyisis as childish. I'm not suggesting that this is going to be your approach, but given the otherwise unchallenged trend on this board, please understand my apprehension.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers? Much of Israel's strongest political support comes in this country from Christian fundamentalists who have expressed rabid anti-Semitism in the past. Their support for Israel is because it is a necessary part of their absurd End Times philosophies. The non-religious support comes because Israel is a crucial Western foothold in the Middle East.
You continue . . .
"To me, it's a simple pragmatism--or realpolitik, if you prefer--that trumps any post-colonial, anti-imperialist screed: Israel means I have a measure of security that my people haven't had for much of recorded history"
Which gets to the heart of the matter. That measure of security, which I'd argue is also illusory, comes at the expense of people who lived on a land before they were displaced. It wasn't the Arab world that has engaged a protracted cultural resentment of Jews, relegating Jews to financial positions only to accuse them of being a userous group of people, advocating the extermination of Jews en masse, etc. Historically, that has been a uniquely European phenomenon. (And no, I'm not suggesting this is somehow biologically innate to Europeans.) Now, you accept the people who advanced these schools of thought as your defenders.
As far as the comment about "resort for white people" go, I'd make the same claim about a lot of Western (or Western-oriented, as the case may be) countries. I've said the same thing about Apartheid South Africa. It doesn't mean that the people living in these countries are automatons or don't go about their lives in many of the same ways that others "outside the walls" do.
And for people who argue that this is irrelevant to the current discussion-- Israel hasn't changed its game up in the 9th Inning. The question "Is Irael going too far?" seems to assume that if was ever engaged legitmiately in the region.
a go nowhere argument because I keep saying that the only people in Israel with full social agency are white
Yeah, I noticed you keep saying that, as if you have uncovered some painful truth no one will acknowledge, and the burden is on everyone else to prove you wrong. Please show us some documented proof of Israel's race laws going beyond simply being Jewish.
It wasn't the Arab world that has engaged a protracted cultural resentment of Jews
Ok, so in your scenario, when Israel does the right thing and packs up shop, ceases to exist, all the Jews from the various Arab countries who moved to Israel will be accepted back with open arms, no hard feelings?
a go nowhere argument because I keep saying that the only people in Israel with full social agency are white
Yeah, I noticed you keep saying that, as if you have uncovered some painful truth no one will acknowledge, and the burden is on everyone else to prove you wrong. Please show us some documented proof of Israel's race laws going beyond simply being Jewish.
On my offtime, I could find some articles regarding deportations, social doublestandards, etc. if that's what you'd like. The extent to which the laws are codified was acknowledged several posts back by someone else.
[qoute]
It wasn't the Arab world that has engaged a protracted cultural resentment of Jews
Ok, so in your scenario, when Israel does the right thing and packs up shop, ceases to exist, all the Jews from the various Arab countries who moved to Israel will be accepted back with open arms, no hard feelings? Sadly, as I suspect we both know, the resolution would be complicated. Far less so than to continue down the current path, however. On break right now, but I'll respond more in-depth if this isn't just a rhetorical.
Israel implemented an automatic disposal of blood donations given by Black Ethiopian Falasha Jews living in Israel. That seems based in racist thinking. I don't really want to get into this discussion though whether Israel is racist as a state or not, because I don't know for sure, so I'll step back out again. XO T.N.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers?
ah yes that old chestnut. Us Jews are not only beholden to the Nazi's for our extermination we are incredibly thankful that they made all this possible. God bless the nazi's for helping us out when we were lost and continuing to help us out (apparently under the guise of Christianity)for giving us this beautiful "white resort".
Now that I think about it most instituted segregation/ prejudicial racism wasn't really all that bad and those so-called oppressed people should actually be thankful to those that did what they did. Cause once they stopped they reaped some serious benefits.
Next time I talk to a black man about oppression I'll ask him if he's taken the time to thank white people for stopping slavery and letting them enjoy the resort-like life and subsequent freedoms that come with being an American.
Lets not forget the Native Americans who were blessed with the gifts of reservation life. not a single Indian should go a day without thanking european based Americans for creating these utopian areas for them and allowing them the pleasures of life we all so love.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers?
ah yes that old chestnut. Us Jews are not only beholden to the Nazi's for our extermination we are incredibly thankful that they made all this possible. God bless the nazi's for helping us out when we were lost and continuing to help us out (apparently under the guise of Christianity)for giving us this beautiful "white resort".
Now that I think about it most instituted segregation/ prejudicial racism wasn't really all that bad and those so-called oppressed people should actually be thankful to those that did what they did. Cause once they stopped they reaped some serious benefits.
Next time I talk to a black man about oppression I'll ask him if he's taken the time to thank white people for stopping slavery and letting them enjoy the resort-like life and subsequent freedoms that come with being an American.
Lets not forget the Native Americans who were blessed with the gifts of reservation life. not a single Indian should go a day without thanking european based Americans for creating these utopian areas for them and allowing them the pleasures of life we all so love.
like Ben-Gurion said, Israel was established in spite of the Holocaust, not because of it.
Israel was once trumpeted as the greatest military power in the region. It destroyed its Arab enemies in every war it fought. It defeated an overhwelming force in the Six Day War, but has been fighting the consequences for the last 30 years.
Ever since those conventional wars however, the Israeli Defense Forces have proven to be ineffective. They are stuck on using conventional strategy and overwhelming force against insurgent/guerrilla organizations. They believe that they can defeat them on the battlefield and deter them from terrorist attacks as it defeated its Arab neighboring states. This reminds me about an exchange between two colonels, one American and one Vietnamese, in Saigon, Vietnam in 1975. The American said that the communist Vietnamese had never defeated America on the battlefield in Vietnam. The Vietnamese colonel thought about it and said that was true, but completely irrelevant to victory. Israel, like that American colonel, is overlooking the fact that these are not states they are fighting. Insurgents cannot be militarily defeated and deterred by conventional means. Where the war will be won and lost will be on the political field.
The gung-ho/knee jerk reaction is that Israel has to strike back when attacked, but these kinds of responses usually make the situation worse. Israel marched into Lebanon believing that it could use bombing and small raids to degrade Hezbollah and force the Lebanese govt to crack down on them, but neither has happened. Israel can blow up shit all they want, but the fighters and weapons can be replaced. Hezbollah's prestige has grown throughout the Arab world even though they are minority Shiites, and they have proven to be harder fighters, better organized and better armed than Israel expected. Not only that, but Israel's image has been damaged once again in the international community. Public opinion will eventually force them into some kind of compromise and cease-fire and Hezbollah will claim it as a victory because they fought Israel to a standstill.
People say you can't negotiate with terrorists or their sponsors, but Israel has worked out prisoner exchanges with Palestinians before, the U.S. worked with Syria in the Gulf War and shortly after 9/11, etc. It will take a lot longer, and might be seen as weakness by some, but Israel has to be engaged politically to find a lasting solution to this problem. Hezbollah has greatly mediated its stance in Lebanon over the years. They were originally started as a revolutionary organization based upon Iran, but they no longer seek to create an Islamic state in all of Lebanon. They have cut deals with their once arch rivals the Christians in the Lebanese parliament. They don't enforce women to wear face veils in southern Lebanon. That doesn't mean they aren't terrorists and don't kill people, but it does show that they have and are capable of change. Just relying on force is a dead end, and other means need to be explored.
People say you can't negotiate with terrorists or their sponsors,
It's not necessarily a matter of "negotiating with terrorists" per se, but rather negotiating with an organization that clearly, openly and admittedly seeks to wipe your nation and peoples off the face of the map.
but Israel has worked out prisoner exchanges with Palestinians before
And this whole entire current conflict is a direct result of just where this has gotten Israel since their prisoner-swapping appeasement. If Israel gives in and initiates yet another swap, what's stopping Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. from doing this shit all over again in another month? Not a damn thing. The quick-fix / short-term solution is definitely and has yet proven to be successful.
People say you can't negotiate with terrorists or their sponsors,
It's not necessarily a matter of "negotiating with terrorists" per se, but rather negotiating with an organization that clearly, openly and admittedly seeks to wipe your nation and peoples off the face of the map.
And yet Israel ended up negotating with the PLO and continues to talk with the Palestinian Authority. Taking an absolutist policy in these situations rarely works. I'm not saying its going to end this situation right now, but it's really probably the only thing that's going to work in the long-term. And like I said, Hezbollah has definitely moderated within Lebanon, so the possibility for it to change itself is at least there.
And yet Israel ended up negotating with the PLO and continues to talk with the Palestinian Authority. Taking an absolutist policy in these situations rarely works.
And look where negotiating has gotten Israel thus far!
Interesting that you would say that. And since we're on the subject of absolutes here, until Hezbollah absolutely[/b] withdraws their policy for the absolute elimination of Israel, I don't see how any negotiating is possible. Do you? Seriously, how do you negotiate with someone who refuses to even recognize you - let alone calls for your destruction? Negotiations and concessions have gotten Israel absolutely nothing but missles and bombs in return, while the rest of the world watched in absolute contemptible silence.
I'm not saying its going to end this situation right now, but it's really probably the only thing that's going to work in the long-term.
Again, until these ultra radical, Islamo-fascist groups begin to even recognize Israel, how do you figure that any long-term solution is possible?
And like I said, Hezbollah has definitely moderated within Lebanon, so the possibility for it to change itself is at least there.
That's really very nice, but Lebanon is not Israel. (and please to define "moderated")
And yet Israel ended up negotating with the PLO and continues to talk with the Palestinian Authority. Taking an absolutist policy in these situations rarely works.
And look where negotiating has gotten Israel thus far!
Interesting that you would say that. And since we're on the subject of absolutes here, until Hezbollah absolutely[/b] withdraws their policy for the absolute elimination of Israel, I don't see how any negotiating is possible. Do you? Seriously, how do you negotiate with someone who refuses to even recognize you - let alone calls for your destruction? Negotiations and concessions have gotten Israel absolutely nothing but missles and bombs in return, while the rest of the world watched in absolute contemptible silence.
I'm not saying its going to end this situation right now, but it's really probably the only thing that's going to work in the long-term.
Again, until these ultra radical, Islamo-fascist groups begin to even recognize Israel, how do you figure that any long-term solution is possible?
And like I said, Hezbollah has definitely moderated within Lebanon, so the possibility for it to change itself is at least there.
That's really very nice, but Lebanon is not Israel. (and please to define "moderated") Look, you've got to start somewhere, and you don't even have to start with public negotiations. You can always use secret negotiations or use third parties. Israel was having discussions with Syria not that long ago even though its the most obstinant Arab government in the region.
As for how Hezbollah has moderated see above, they do not advocate an Islamic revolution in Lebanon anymore, they participated in elections and are adapting to parliamentary politics, they've worked and cut deals with their former enemies the Christians, they do not enforce strict Islamic law in Southern Lebabnon and Southern Beruit like some Islamic groups have. Women do not have to cover their faces for example. I've seen Lebanese Shiite women interviewed on TV in full western dress with jeans and t-shirts with not even a head cover talk about how they are fully behind Hezbollah. Who would have thought any of that was even possible a couple years ago.
And for all the talk about how negotiations have gotten them no where, bombs and guns haven't either.
"Nearly a month after the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the deaths of eight more in a border raid by Hezbollah on July 12, Israel's military response has failed to secure any of the war aims set out that day." SF Chronicle 8/7/06
After several weeks of this nuttiness, I come back to the thoughts I had in the late 1980s during the first intifadah: There is only one solution to the problems in Israel/Palestine, a negotiated solution which creates a palenstinian state. Obviously this is not news to anyone but it bears remembering that nothing can be accomplished in this region without this simple truth coming to pass. Which brings me to the saddest of all thoughts. It seems like there is simply no one to sign an agreement with on the Palestinian side of the table. This does not mean that there won't be in the future, but as it stands, it just doesn't seem feasible at this time. Thus, one can only conclude that the region will continue to play out this painful and wasteful theater for many more years to come, when finally the parties will find it in their interests to grow up, recognize their mutuality and get on with their lives.
After several weeks of this nuttiness, I come back to the thoughts I had in the late 1980s during the first intifadah: There is only one solution to the problems in Israel/Palestine, a negotiated solution which creates a palenstinian state. Obviously this is not news to anyone but it bears remembering that nothing can be accomplished in this region without this simple truth coming to pass. Which brings me to the saddest of all thoughts. It seems like there is simply no one to sign an agreement with on the Palestinian side of the table. This does not mean that there won't be in the future, but as it stands, it just doesn't seem feasible at this time. Thus, one can only conclude that the region will continue to play out this painful and wasteful theater for many more years to come, when finally the parties will find it in their interests to grow up, recognize their mutuality and get on with their lives.
I've been working 14+ hours and I'm still on the job so pardon me if this comes off a little non-sensical or harsh. The American/ Western train of thought on this is that there is a solution. the truth is there simply isn't...at least not one in the short term. There are generations of Arabs in the area who don't beleive Jews have a right to exist. On the flip there are generations of Jews who see Arabs/ Muslims as their biggest threat and will never trust one.
We are talking deep deep hate that gets taught by family, neighbors, and even in the classroom (beleive me I know).
Giving land to Palestinians (which they have BTW) does nothing but give people this hardcore hate a base to set up ways to push an agenda of destruction on Jews. I say this as an avid supporter of an intergrated Israel/ Palestine and as an observer of middle east politics. It's happened in Gaza, it happened with the IDF pulling out of southern Lebanon. The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
I've been reading a lot about best and worst practices in counterinsurgency operations.
What Israel is conducting right now is an anti-insurgent policy where the point is to try to kill as many Hezbollah fighters as possible. The problem with that is that those fighters can all be replaced and anti-insurgent campaigns have never been successful.
In counterinsurgency campaigns the point is to undercut support of the insurgents with the population. In successful counterinsurgency campaigns conducted in the past force is the last resort, not the first. When it's used it needs to be used minimally instead of overwhelmingly so that the resulting damage will not alienate the population and push them towards the insurgents.
Israel is using the first tactic and leading to the last point, increasing support for Hezbollah rather than lessoning it. Israel is also trying to use overhwleming force as a kind of strong arm tactic with the Lebanese government, believing that if it destroys enough of the country's infrastructure the government will suddenly stand up to Hezbollah. Shiites are 40-50% of the population and there are a similar number in the Lebanese army. Expecting the government to militarily face Hezbollah, especially after years of civil war, at the point of an Israeli gun seems pretty blantantly stupid to me.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I ain't trying to sell you on it.
Life doesn't always have solutions, much less logical answers to its problems.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers?
ah yes that old chestnut. Us Jews are not only beholden to the Nazi's for our extermination we are incredibly thankful that they made all this possible. God bless the nazi's for helping us out when we were lost and continuing to help us out (apparently under the guise of Christianity)for giving us this beautiful "white resort".
Now that I think about it most instituted segregation/ prejudicial racism wasn't really all that bad and those so-called oppressed people should actually be thankful to those that did what they did. Cause once they stopped they reaped some serious benefits.
Next time I talk to a black man about oppression I'll ask him if he's taken the time to thank white people for stopping slavery and letting them enjoy the resort-like life and subsequent freedoms that come with being an American.
Lets not forget the Native Americans who were blessed with the gifts of reservation life. not a single Indian should go a day without thanking european based Americans for creating these utopian areas for them and allowing them the pleasures of life we all so love.
Wow, you've really managed to misonstrue what the word "beholden" means, haven't you. Great job at burning down a straw man argument. My statement is that Israel is locked to vocal anti-Semites. Much of its biggest political support comes from people who don't like Jews and are vocal about it.
Wow, you've really managed to misonstrue what the word "beholden" means, haven't you. Great job at burning down a straw man argument. My statement is that Israel is locked to vocal anti-Semites. Much of its biggest political support comes from people who don't like Jews and are vocal about it.
Whats your point? The people who agree with you are just as vocal. So lots of people hate jews, stop the presses. Talk about a straw man argument. You ever going to actually answer my question from before or are you just going to say its "complicated" and go back to playing gotcha for israeli hypocrisy?
Wow, you've really managed to misonstrue what the word "beholden" means, haven't you. Great job at burning down a straw man argument. My statement is that Israel is locked to vocal anti-Semites. Much of its biggest political support comes from people who don't like Jews and are vocal about it.
Whats your point? The people who agree with you are just as vocal. So lots of people hate jews, stop the presses. Talk about a straw man argument. You ever going to actually answer my question from before or are you just going to say its "complicated" and go back to playing gotcha for israeli hypocrisy?
My friend,
Slow down and read. What I posted above was a direct response to someone taking "beholden" out of context (as per quote).
I'm on the net infrequently, so I suspect you're referencing my earlier comments about Israeli immigration and citizenship policy. I'll make a point to get back on here this evening and try to link some articles.
As a sidenote, there's an intereting piece about Israeli hip hop in the new issue of Swindle-- and no, I haven't based my entire political outlook on that . . .i can hear that quip right now. Anyway, they interview a dude born in Israel, his parents are Black Americans from a popular Black Jewish Sect who immigrated there in the 70s, I believe. The Israeli state doesn't recognize their Judaism and so his family has been threatened with deportation. This is not inconsistant at all with Israeli immigration policy. Conversely, a person can be of European descent, have been raised culturally Jewish but be an atheist and never face such scares. This is common and it suggests that race plays no small part in Israeli social agency. Again, this doesn't even touch the fact that Palestinian lives are commonly treated by the Israeli gov't as being worth dirt.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
sad but true. for further proof check into the majority political party, Hamas refusal to recognize Israel (AKA the Jewish state) and their sponsoring of suicide bombings within Israels borders.
Hezbollah is really no different, you can gain some info on it right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Position_on_Israel . Jews have been subject to Inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts and various other forms of destruction and anti-semitism for centuries and to this day it continues. So, even if you don't want to believe it, There are many-a-powerful political group seeking the destruction of Israel and its Jewish people.
Comments
Thanks for this, this guy made a lot of good points, especially about Israel's strategy not working. He made a great point about Hezbollah making demands they know Israel will not meet and offering a ceasefire if they are met, basically PR strategy.
Johnny, I think pragmatically, you're right. But I can't see moral equivilance here. Assuming that one accepts Israels right to exist, and doesn't resort to knee jerk "this is all over two soldiers," I see this largely as Israel defending itself. I can definitely agree that they've done things that show serious disregard for life, but the fact is, Israel is using a standing army with the stated goal of defending itself, as opposed to Hezbollah, who's stated goal is the destruction of an entire country (or people?) and whose fighters hide amongst civilian populations. This is a loose-loose for Israel, they hold back, look weak and Hezbollah declares victory. They attempt to root out Hezbollah, and they end up with pictures of dead civilians and children on TV's accross the world. Am I wrong that Hezbollah gets a pass because their missles are less effective, or am I to believe that Hezbollah wouldn't blow up houses full of Israeli children given the chance? As a strong opponent of the Iraq war, it causes me pause to hear myself using some of the same justifications, and I can concede that Israel has shown some serious disregard for civilians, but this is war. In the past, Israel has made concessions, and continues to be attacked. Simply, they are being held to a different standard. Not to single out Johnny, to anyone who does think Israel has gone too far, what are a country's options when facing an enemy who calls for your country's destruction, lobs missles over the border, and hides amongst the civilian population who elected them? I agree that attempting to win over the population through bombing is almost certainly futile, but again, I think Israel sees this as a fight for survival, and I haven't heard any credible alternatives. I am not counting "Israel should chill out" or "Israel is a resort for white people, who should go home"...
Unheard-
Hesbollah will agree to a ceasefire if there's a prisoner swap. I think that's the way to go. Surely it'll look like a defeat for Israel but, in my opinion one has to measure that against the potential for a regional war (Syria has stated if Israel enters witihin 12 miles of Damascus they'll intervene, Iran could follow, attacks on America in Iraq,etc....) politically and image wise it's not a good look for Israel, but neither is Qana. a prisoner swap is the most pragmatic decision.
Bottom line, and some may see this as an idealistic, distant reality (which at the moment it is), but dialogue is the only way forward.
And dialogue is, of course, the only way forward.
It also means that in the future Israel could look forward to more kidnappings and murders from Hezbollah, Hamas, and any other group that has an issue with Israel in order to get their way. Unfortunately this is not an issue in which straight westernized diplomacy will work, there is a different mentality here one which sees compromise as weakness and will mostly likely try to expose and re-expose that weakness again and again.
If I came in your house killed off a couple of your family members and took some others hostage for the umpteenth time and my reasoning behind this is my belief that your family doesnt have the right to exist do you think dialogue would really create a solution? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm truly curious as to whether you think its a logical reaction to such an everyday threat
This is sad but true. And within this same logic, IMO, is basically the reason why there are hundreds (?) of thousands of radicalized and desperate Palestinians who just don't care anymore. Severe unequality and racial segregation, huge unemployment rates, bad education, no hope of a better future, the "safety" wall, getting fucked over by the British, the UN, the US, neighbouring Arab countries, Israel and their own, often corrupt, government time and time again, etc. I can understand the hatred on both sides. But right now it is Israel who is shooting itself in the leg - and Hezbollah has already won.
like I said on day one of the war Israel is fucked either way. They can't look good in this no matter what the outcome.
Hezbollah really has nothing to lose accept maybe their identity as a major S.Lebanese organization, but even if that is broken up I'm sure in a few years another group will come along and take its place.
If you're asking what a logical reaction is, it depends on what sort of logic you're refering to. Emotionally, no, I wouldn't want any dialogue. But violence begets violence. The logic of violence spreads like wildfire and could consume us all. Given nuclear technology this sort of back and forth is not sustainable and pragmatically the logical thing to do is get Israelis and Arabs, primarily Palestinians in a dialogue with one another, because right now they're not seeing each other as human beings, they're seeing each other as threats to their own existence and as long as that's the case there won't be peace.
Most of the dead and 20 wounded were taken to nearby Syria after the raid near Qaa in the Bekaa Valley. At least three rockets hit a farm where workers, mostly Syrian Kurds, were loading plums and peaches on to trucks, local officials said.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING???
going too far?
This ends up being a go nowhere argument because I keep saying that the only people in Israel with full social agency are white, in turn the people who respond to me either ignore, sidestep, or distort what I've written and then reemphasize the futility of digging up past events. The most delusional of responders insist something logically equivalent to "No Jew is white," all the while indicting my race analyisis as childish. I'm not suggesting that this is going to be your approach, but given the otherwise unchallenged trend on this board, please understand my apprehension.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers? Much of Israel's strongest political support comes in this country from Christian fundamentalists who have expressed rabid anti-Semitism in the past. Their support for Israel is because it is a necessary part of their absurd End Times philosophies. The non-religious support comes because Israel is a crucial Western foothold in the Middle East.
You continue . . .
"To me, it's a simple pragmatism--or realpolitik, if you prefer--that trumps any post-colonial, anti-imperialist screed: Israel means I have a measure of security that my people haven't had for much of recorded history"
Which gets to the heart of the matter. That measure of security, which I'd argue is also illusory, comes at the expense of people who lived on a land before they were displaced. It wasn't the Arab world that has engaged a protracted cultural resentment of Jews, relegating Jews to financial positions only to accuse them of being a userous group of people, advocating the extermination of Jews en masse, etc. Historically, that has been a uniquely European phenomenon. (And no, I'm not suggesting this is somehow biologically innate to Europeans.) Now, you accept the people who advanced these schools of thought as your defenders.
As far as the comment about "resort for white people" go, I'd make the same claim about a lot of Western (or Western-oriented, as the case may be) countries. I've said the same thing about Apartheid South Africa. It doesn't mean that the people living in these countries are automatons or don't go about their lives in many of the same ways that others "outside the walls" do.
And for people who argue that this is irrelevant to the current discussion-- Israel hasn't changed its game up in the 9th Inning. The question "Is Irael going too far?" seems to assume that if was ever engaged legitmiately in the region.
Yeah, I noticed you keep saying that, as if you have uncovered some painful truth no one will acknowledge, and the burden is on everyone else to prove you wrong. Please show us some documented proof of Israel's race laws going beyond simply being Jewish.
Ok, so in your scenario, when Israel does the right thing and packs up shop, ceases to exist, all the Jews from the various Arab countries who moved to Israel will be accepted back with open arms, no hard feelings?
On my offtime, I could find some articles regarding deportations, social doublestandards, etc. if that's what you'd like. The extent to which the laws are codified was acknowledged several posts back by someone else.
[qoute]
Ok, so in your scenario, when Israel does the right thing and packs up shop, ceases to exist, all the Jews from the various Arab countries who moved to Israel will be accepted back with open arms, no hard feelings?
Sadly, as I suspect we both know, the resolution would be complicated. Far less so than to continue down the current path, however. On break right now, but I'll respond more in-depth if this isn't just a rhetorical.
XO
T.N.
ah yes that old chestnut. Us Jews are not only beholden to the Nazi's for our extermination we are incredibly thankful that they made all this possible. God bless the nazi's for helping us out when we were lost and continuing to help us out (apparently under the guise of Christianity)for giving us this beautiful "white resort".
Now that I think about it most instituted segregation/ prejudicial racism wasn't really all that bad and those so-called oppressed people should actually be thankful to those that did what they did. Cause once they stopped they reaped some serious benefits.
Next time I talk to a black man about oppression I'll ask him if he's taken the time to thank white people for stopping slavery and letting them enjoy the resort-like life and subsequent freedoms that come with being an American.
Lets not forget the Native Americans who were blessed with the gifts of reservation life. not a single Indian should go a day without thanking european based Americans for creating these utopian areas for them and allowing them the pleasures of life we all so love.
like Ben-Gurion said, Israel was established in spite of the Holocaust, not because of it.
And completely failing as well.
Israel was once trumpeted as the greatest military power in the region. It destroyed its Arab enemies in every war it fought. It defeated an overhwelming force in the Six Day War, but has been fighting the consequences for the last 30 years.
Ever since those conventional wars however, the Israeli Defense Forces have proven to be ineffective. They are stuck on using conventional strategy and overwhelming force against insurgent/guerrilla organizations. They believe that they can defeat them on the battlefield and deter them from terrorist attacks as it defeated its Arab neighboring states. This reminds me about an exchange between two colonels, one American and one Vietnamese, in Saigon, Vietnam in 1975. The American said that the communist Vietnamese had never defeated America on the battlefield in Vietnam. The Vietnamese colonel thought about it and said that was true, but completely irrelevant to victory. Israel, like that American colonel, is overlooking the fact that these are not states they are fighting. Insurgents cannot be militarily defeated and deterred by conventional means. Where the war will be won and lost will be on the political field.
The gung-ho/knee jerk reaction is that Israel has to strike back when attacked, but these kinds of responses usually make the situation worse. Israel marched into Lebanon believing that it could use bombing and small raids to degrade Hezbollah and force the Lebanese govt to crack down on them, but neither has happened. Israel can blow up shit all they want, but the fighters and weapons can be replaced. Hezbollah's prestige has grown throughout the Arab world even though they are minority Shiites, and they have proven to be harder fighters, better organized and better armed than Israel expected. Not only that, but Israel's image has been damaged once again in the international community. Public opinion will eventually force them into some kind of compromise and cease-fire and Hezbollah will claim it as a victory because they fought Israel to a standstill.
People say you can't negotiate with terrorists or their sponsors, but Israel has worked out prisoner exchanges with Palestinians before, the U.S. worked with Syria in the Gulf War and shortly after 9/11, etc. It will take a lot longer, and might be seen as weakness by some, but Israel has to be engaged politically to find a lasting solution to this problem. Hezbollah has greatly mediated its stance in Lebanon over the years. They were originally started as a revolutionary organization based upon Iran, but they no longer seek to create an Islamic state in all of Lebanon. They have cut deals with their once arch rivals the Christians in the Lebanese parliament. They don't enforce women to wear face veils in southern Lebanon. That doesn't mean they aren't terrorists and don't kill people, but it does show that they have and are capable of change. Just relying on force is a dead end, and other means need to be explored.
It's not necessarily a matter of "negotiating with terrorists" per se, but rather negotiating with an organization that clearly, openly and admittedly seeks to wipe your nation and peoples off the face of the map.
And this whole entire current conflict is a direct result of just where this has gotten Israel since their prisoner-swapping appeasement.
If Israel gives in and initiates yet another swap, what's stopping Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. from doing this shit all over again in another month?
Not a damn thing.
The quick-fix / short-term solution is definitely
And yet Israel ended up negotating with the PLO and continues to talk with the Palestinian Authority. Taking an absolutist policy in these situations rarely works. I'm not saying its going to end this situation right now, but it's really probably the only thing that's going to work in the long-term. And like I said, Hezbollah has definitely moderated within Lebanon, so the possibility for it to change itself is at least there.
And look where negotiating has gotten Israel thus far!
Interesting that you would say that.
And since we're on the subject of absolutes here, until Hezbollah absolutely[/b] withdraws their policy for the absolute elimination of Israel, I don't see how any negotiating is possible. Do you?
Seriously, how do you negotiate with someone who refuses to even recognize you - let alone calls for your destruction?
Negotiations and concessions have gotten Israel absolutely nothing but missles and bombs in return, while the rest of the world watched in absolute contemptible silence.
I'm not saying its going to end this situation right now, but it's really probably the only thing that's going to work in the long-term.
Again, until these ultra radical, Islamo-fascist groups begin to even recognize Israel, how do you figure that any long-term solution is possible?
And like I said, Hezbollah has definitely moderated within Lebanon, so the possibility for it to change itself is at least there.
That's really very nice, but Lebanon is not Israel.
(and please to define "moderated")
Again, until these ultra radical, Islamo-fascist groups begin to even recognize Israel, how do you figure that any long-term solution is possible?
That's really very nice, but Lebanon is not Israel.
(and please to define "moderated")
Look, you've got to start somewhere, and you don't even have to start with public negotiations. You can always use secret negotiations or use third parties. Israel was having discussions with Syria not that long ago even though its the most obstinant Arab government in the region.
As for how Hezbollah has moderated see above, they do not advocate an Islamic revolution in Lebanon anymore, they participated in elections and are adapting to parliamentary politics, they've worked and cut deals with their former enemies the Christians, they do not enforce strict Islamic law in Southern Lebabnon and Southern Beruit like some Islamic groups have. Women do not have to cover their faces for example. I've seen Lebanese Shiite women interviewed on TV in full western dress with jeans and t-shirts with not even a head cover talk about how they are fully behind Hezbollah. Who would have thought any of that was even possible a couple years ago.
And for all the talk about how negotiations have gotten them no where, bombs and guns haven't either.
"Nearly a month after the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the deaths of eight more in a border raid by Hezbollah on July 12, Israel's military response has failed to secure any of the war aims set out that day." SF Chronicle 8/7/06
I've been working 14+ hours and I'm still on the job so pardon me if this comes off a little non-sensical or harsh. The American/ Western train of thought on this is that there is a solution. the truth is there simply isn't...at least not one in the short term. There are generations of Arabs in the area who don't beleive Jews have a right to exist. On the flip there are generations of Jews who see Arabs/ Muslims as their biggest threat and will never trust one.
We are talking deep deep hate that gets taught by family, neighbors, and even in the classroom (beleive me I know).
Giving land to Palestinians (which they have BTW) does nothing but give people this hardcore hate a base to set up ways to push an agenda of destruction on Jews. I say this as an avid supporter of an intergrated Israel/ Palestine and as an observer of middle east politics. It's happened in Gaza, it happened with the IDF pulling out of southern Lebanon. The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
What Israel is conducting right now is an anti-insurgent policy where the point is to try to kill as many Hezbollah fighters as possible. The problem with that is that those fighters can all be replaced and anti-insurgent campaigns have never been successful.
In counterinsurgency campaigns the point is to undercut support of the insurgents with the population. In successful counterinsurgency campaigns conducted in the past force is the last resort, not the first. When it's used it needs to be used minimally instead of overwhelmingly so that the resulting damage will not alienate the population and push them towards the insurgents.
Israel is using the first tactic and leading to the last point, increasing support for Hezbollah rather than lessoning it. Israel is also trying to use overhwleming force as a kind of strong arm tactic with the Lebanese government, believing that if it destroys enough of the country's infrastructure the government will suddenly stand up to Hezbollah. Shiites are 40-50% of the population and there are a similar number in the Lebanese army. Expecting the government to militarily face Hezbollah, especially after years of civil war, at the point of an Israeli gun seems pretty blantantly stupid to me.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I ain't trying to sell you on it.
Life doesn't always have solutions, much less logical answers to its problems.
Wow, you've really managed to misonstrue what the word "beholden" means, haven't you. Great job at burning down a straw man argument. My statement is that Israel is locked to vocal anti-Semites. Much of its biggest political support comes from people who don't like Jews and are vocal about it.
Whats your point? The people who agree with you are just as vocal. So lots of people hate jews, stop the presses. Talk about a straw man argument. You ever going to actually answer my question from before or are you just going to say its "complicated" and go back to playing gotcha for israeli hypocrisy?
My friend,
Slow down and read. What I posted above was a direct response to someone taking "beholden" out of context (as per quote).
I'm on the net infrequently, so I suspect you're referencing my earlier comments about Israeli immigration and citizenship policy. I'll make a point to get back on here this evening and try to link some articles.
As a sidenote, there's an intereting piece about Israeli hip hop in the new issue of Swindle-- and no, I haven't based my entire political outlook on that . . .i can hear that quip right now. Anyway, they interview a dude born in Israel, his parents are Black Americans from a popular Black Jewish Sect who immigrated there in the 70s, I believe. The Israeli state doesn't recognize their Judaism and so his family has been threatened with deportation. This is not inconsistant at all with Israeli immigration policy. Conversely, a person can be of European descent, have been raised culturally Jewish but be an atheist and never face such scares. This is common and it suggests that race plays no small part in Israeli social agency. Again, this doesn't even touch the fact that Palestinian lives are commonly treated by the Israeli gov't as being worth dirt.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
sad but true. for further proof check into the majority political party, Hamas refusal to recognize Israel (AKA the Jewish state) and their sponsoring of suicide bombings within Israels borders.
Hezbollah is really no different, you can gain some info on it right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Position_on_Israel . Jews have been subject to Inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts and various other forms of destruction and anti-semitism for centuries and to this day it continues. So, even if you don't want to believe it, There are many-a-powerful political group seeking the destruction of Israel and its Jewish people.