"While recognizing the inferior status of dhimmis under Islamic rule, Bernard Lewis holds that in most respects their position was "was very much easier than that of non-Christians or even of heretical Christians in medieval Europe."
which I acknowledged. but there was still discrimination at a level that neither you nor I would ever stand for.
do you see the irony in dude's argument?
the poster said it's wrong to distinguish between levels of discrimination (e.g. just because Arabs in Israel don't have it as bad as blacks in Apartheid RSA, doesn't make it right). to distinguish between the two levels of discrimination is bogus.
And then he goes on to do exactly that, by saying that Jews in Muslim countries never had it as bad as in Europe. Well, OK. But does that make it right that Jews were still discriminated against in these countries?
I was commenting the article you linked, which concentrates mostly on historic times starting from the 7th century. Jews living under Islamic rule were discriminated against, yes, but not any more than Christians and definitely far less than, for example, Hindus. Europe was worse for Jews in those times, which may be surprising.
with this comment you've pretty much revealed the ignorance underlying your entire argument. Israel is about 70% mizrachi, Druze, Bedouin and Arab. do your homework dog.
I love how you aggregate the groups, three of which are Arab and thus composed of second class citzens, sidestep this fact and then act as though you've presented a defeater to my argument. You've invalidated nothing. Further, while "Mizrachi" may in word have come to be understood to mean "a Zionist Jew not of European origin" (in fact, is this even how the term is used colloquially? Someone please chime in), I wonder what is the reality of the situation.
Additionally, and in reference to the Wikepedia article you cited, I want to say that I'm not going to defend nor have I ever defended Sharia law. We can go down a dead end "tu quo que" road, but I'm very much capable of recognizing cultural and religous chauvenism-- Goyim, Dhimmi, Heathen, whatever-- and if it hasn't already become obvious I think it's baseless; Which is precisely why I'm not going to write an intellectual blank check to a political movement which, no matter what diplomatic window dressing it puts on this week, has as its cornerstone a "God's Chosen People" justification.
And as far as being astoundingly offended by my envisioning Israel a resort for white people, sadly, my friend, the fact that it offended you doesn't make my characterization any less astoundingly accurate. A white person can buy a ticket to this resort merely by saying "I am a Jew," while people indigenous to the area are all too often relegated to looking in through the gates. The retort to this observation is often that I'm being racist or culturally insensitive. To whom? Wealthy white people who purport an ancient birthright to a land a thousand miles away from their ancestral homes? These same individuals are often eager to cite religious adherents of the same faith but different ethnicity to bolster their numbers and advance their claim, but significantly less willing to evenly distribute their "God given" privilege among these people. It's shameful and one of the reasons why as a Black person who is in part of West Indian Jewish heritage I would never accept the offer in the extremely unlikely event the Israeli government would even recognize me as a Jew. (This is assuming, contrary to fact, that I ever desired to live in the region or that I identfied as Jewish.) I have no reasonable cultural claim to Middle East land, and the terms under which I could live there would be so corrupt and dehumanizing to the people indigenous to the area, such a move would be despicable. And this is getting at what I was saying about Jewish Right of Return-- sorry if ROR needed clarifiying.
Oh, yeah-- I found this funny. "In a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks??? killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not "genocide", but the "brutal byproduct of war".[10] Lewis meant that it was not part of a plan to exterminate the entire Armenian race - not that it was justified or that it did not happen. Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and fined him one franc. [11][12]"
dude stop. you have no idea what you are talking about. Israel is overwhelmingly non-white. i'm sorry that this fact does not fit into your simplistic black-white dichotomy, but that's reality. now pick another argument from your post-colonial studies class because this one does not fit the situation.
No no reall, you stop. At no point in time have I said that the REGION is not overwhelmingly non-white. What I have consistently said is that those who have the largest degree of political agency in Israel are white. Now, go back to your remedial reading skills development book and develop a skill set sufficient to allow you to process what has been written. Come with a retort that addresses the issues or it's
I love this guy R Double who just decided to sign up to the board to argue about Israel.
... and mad corny at that.
And also Are Double, I find your tone in the above pieces to be infused with too many race and self-hatred issues to be objective. In my opinion, that is. No offense.
I love this guy R Double who just decided to sign up to the board to argue about Israel.
... and mad corny at that.
Dog, come off it. I signed up a little while back. Had been a reader of the board for a minute. Saw the discussion. Opened it.
Didn't realize that I had to have longtime Soul Strut cred to have an opinion. But that's okay, chief. You just lay back in the cut, observe, throw your little quip in here and there while adding nothing new to the conversation and Ima do me, OK? Uno.
" I find your tone in the above pieces to be infused with too many race and self-hatred issues to be objective."
Damn, Columbo. Where did this come from? Enquiring minds . . . Is this a "self hating Jew" retort? If so, not Jewish, but I appreciate the thoughtless copout. Again, lay back . . . .
Dude has an opinion that contrasts with the majority, be it right or wrong his argument is well-thought out and reasoned and he is clearly able to engage in calm dialogue.
For the benefit of people like Oliver, or Day, whose minds are not made up... if you guys find his posts so incredibly wrong it might be worthwhile to rebut them with arguments rather than insults.
My .02.
Today UN is calling Israel's flattening of Beirut a violation of international humanitarian law.
Yeah but as for dude, he definitely has well thought out arguements. His views differ from mine, but I'm not mad at that. I mainly pointed out the fact that his 7 posts were all up in this thread, as though he's been silently waiting for this topic to be raised. I always find that suspect, much like in the case with that Dolo Yeung and like the 2 or three other people who are on here. Nothing personal against him, nothing having to do with us having different opinions, just me making an observation (one that seems to have struck him somewhere.)As for this thread, him and Rootless can continue their "discussion" - I'm so far out of this shit it's not funny.
As for the race and self-hate issues that I picked up on, they're there, I just don't habe the time to pointg them out. Like 3 or 4 different lines here and there that are eye opening to say the least, that speak volumes. It made me totally look at what he wrote in a different light.
I feel you dog and I am out as well. But there are numerous cats who basically stay in the "NRR" section. On the low, some of these dudes don't even buy records...
As for this thread, him and Rootless can continue their "discussion"
yeah no thanks. i think there needs to be an elementary point of departure for a real constructive conversation to take place (e.g. this issue is not black and white). otherwise it's just a pissing contest. i just don't see that departure point anywhere between me and dude. i'll try to stay out of it with him....like i said i'll try to stay out of it...
Yeah but as for dude, he definitely has well thought out arguements. His views differ from mine, but I'm not mad at that. I mainly pointed out the fact that his 7 posts were all up in this thread, as though he's been silently waiting for this topic to be raised. I always find that suspect, much like in the case with that Dolo Yeung and like the 2 or three other people who are on here. Nothing personal against him, nothing having to do with us having different opinions, just me making an observation (one that seems to have struck him somewhere.)
I dunno, mang. It struck because there wasn't any sort of indication that you thought the arguments were well thought out. Just what appeared to be ad hominems. And now it seems like you're doing a sort of about-face.
As for this thread, him and Rootless can continue their "discussion" - I'm so far out of this shit it's not funny.
You said it, I didn't. No offense, but I agree that the "fall back" option is the move to make, here.
As for the race and self-hate issues that I picked up on, they're there, I just don't habe the time to pointg them out. Like 3 or 4 different lines here and there that are eye opening to say the least, that speak volumes. It made me totally look at what he wrote in a different light.
As far as making race a significant issue of the discussion I definitely did that because I think it is one of the key issues in this debate. As far as the "self-hate" goes, I could only assume based upon what you and I had said that you were coming with the popular "self-hating Jew" quip, and, well, I'm not a Jew. . . Correct me if I missread this. . . Seriously, though-- Did you read the entire post(s) in question before you responded?
I mainly pointed out the fact that his 7 posts were all up in this thread, as though he's been silently waiting for this topic to be raised. I always find that suspect, much like in the case with that Dolo Yeung and like the 2 or three other people who are on here.
So what is suspect here? Is Cosmo saying these are aliases?
Since you decided to grace the board with your over-opinionated/ unschooled sweetly ignorant self maybe you can give us some background as to where you're coming from with your hate of this imaginary white Israel.
Have you ever been to the country, or any part of the Middle East? if so please tell me what your impression of the area, its politics and the people.
his argument is well-thought out and reasoned and he is clearly able to engage in calm dialogue.
he may be talking in a calm cool manner but i don't think he really knows what he's talking about, he clearly does not know much about south africa if he is comparing it to israel
most of what he says is pure opinion aka pulling it out of his ass
rootless my hats off to you for doing what your doing
a very good article about the history of Hezbollah
The Sunday Times July 23, 2006
God's army has plans to run the whole Middle East Hezbollah, the group at the heart of the Lebanese conflict, is the spearhead of Iran???s ambitions to be a superpower, says Iranian commentator Amir Taheri
???You are the sun of Islam, shining on the universe!??? This is how Muhammad Khatami, the mullah who was president of Iran until last year, described Hezbollah last week. It would be no exaggeration to describe Hezbollah ??? the Lebanese Shi???ite militia ??? as Tehran???s regional trump card. Each time Tehran has played it, it has won. As war rages between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, Tehran policymakers think that this time, too, they can win.
???I invite the faithful to wait for good news,??? Iran???s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said last Tuesday. ???We shall soon witness the elimination of the Zionist stain of shame.???
What are the links between Hezbollah and Iran? In 1982 Iran had almost no influence in Lebanon. The Lebanese Shi???ite bourgeoisie that had had close ties with Iran when it was ruled by the Shah was horrified by the advent of the clerics who created an Islamic republic.
Seeking a bridgehead in Lebanon, Iran asked its ambassador to Damascus, Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour, a radical mullah, to create one. Mohtashamipour decided to open a branch in Lebanon of the Iranian Hezbollah (the party of God).
After many meetings in Lebanon Mohtashamipour succeeded: in its founding statement it committed itself to the ???creation of an Islamic republic in Lebanon???. To this end hundreds of Iranian mullahs, political ???educators??? and Islamic Revolutionary Guards were dispatched to Beirut.
Within two years several radical Shi???ite groups in Lebanon, including some with Marxist backgrounds, had united under the Hezbollah name and became the main force resisting the Israeli occupation of Lebanon after the expulsion of Yasser Arafat???s Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) in 1983.
Terror has been its principal weapon. Throughout the 1980s Hezbollah kidnapped more than 200 foreign nationals in Lebanon, most of them Americans or western Europeans (including Terry Waite, the Archbishop of Canterbury???s envoy). It organised the hijacking of civilian aircraft and more or less pioneered the idea of suicide bombings against American and French targets, killing almost 1,000 people, including 241 US marines in Beirut and 58 French paratroopers.
The campaign produced results. After Hezbollah???s attacks, France reduced its support for Saddam Hussein. America went further by supplying Iran with TOW anti-tank missiles, shipped via Israel, which helped to tip the Iran-Iraq war in favour of Iran. In exchange Iran ordered Hezbollah to release French and American hostages.
Once the Iran-Iraq war was over, Tehran found other uses for its Lebanese asset. It purged and then reshaped Hezbollah to influence the broader course of regional politics while using it to wage a low-intensity war against Israel.
In 2000, when the Israelis evacuated the strip they controlled in southern Lebanon, Tehran presented the event as the ???first victory of Islam over the Zionist crusader camp??? and Hezbollah was lauded across the Arab world. Hezbollah taunted the Israelis with billboards on the border reading, ???If you return, we return???.
To prop up that myth, Tehran invested in a propaganda campaign that included television ???documentaries???, feature films and books and magazine articles. The message was simple: while secular ideologies ??? from pan-Arabism to Arab socialism ??? had failed to liberate an inch of Arab territory, Islamism, in its Iranian Khomeinist version working through Hezbollah, had achieved ???total victory??? over Israel in Lebanon.
Since 1984 Iran has created branches of Hezbollah in more than 20 countries. None has equalled the success of the Lebanese branch, which until recently enjoyed something akin to cult status among Arabs, including non-Muslims, because of the way it stood up to Israel.
It has not even cost Iran very much. Hezbollah was launched with just ??13m. After that, according to best estimates, Iran spent ??32m to ??54m a year on its Lebanese assets. Even if we add the cost of training Hezbollah fighters and equipping them with hardware, Hezbollah (the strongest fighting force in the Middle East after Iran and Israel) has not cost Iran more than ??1.3 billion over two decades.
According to Naim Kassem, Hezbollah???s number two, the party has an annual budget of ??279m, much of which comes from businesses set up by the movement. These include a bank, a mortgage co-operative, an insurance company, a travel agency specialising in pilgrimages to Muslim holy places, several hotels, a chain of supermarkets and a number of urban bus and taxi companies.
In its power base in southern Lebanon, particularly south Beirut and the Bekaa valley, it is possible for a visitor to spend a whole week without stepping outside a Hezbollah business unit: the hotel he checks into, the restaurant he eats in, the taxi that takes him around, the guide who shows him the sights and the shop where he buys souvenirs all belong to the party.
Hezbollah is a state within the Lebanese state. It controls some 25% of the national territory. Almost 400,000 of Lebanon???s estimated 4m inhabitants live under its control. It collects its own taxes with a 20% levy, known as ???khoms???, on all incomes. It runs its own schools, where a syllabus produced in Iran is taught at all levels. It also runs clinics, hospitals, social welfare networks and centres for orphans and widows.
The party controls the elected municipal councils and appoints local officials, who in theory should be selected by the central government in Beirut. To complete its status as a virtual state, the party maintains a number of unofficial ???embassies???: the one in Tehran is bigger and has a larger number of staff than that of Lebanon itself.
Hezbollah also has its own media including a satellite television channel, Al-Manar (the lighthouse), which is watched all over the Arab world, four radio stations, newspapers and magazines plus a book publishing venture. The party has its own system of justice based on sharia and operates its own police force, courts and prisons. Hezbollah runs youth clubs, several football teams and a number of matrimonial agencies.
Its relationship with the rest of Lebanon is complex; it occupies 14 seats in the 128-seat national assembly and holds two portfolios in the council of ministers. But it still describes itself as ???a people-based movement fighting on behalf of the Muslim world???.
The backbone of all that is Hezbollah???s militia, a fighting force of about 8,000 men, trained and armed with the latest weapons by Iran and Syria. Of these about 2,000 men represent an elite force under the direct command of the party???s secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah, a former pupil of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the man who founded Iran???s Islamic republic. But the party also claims more than 30,000 reservists.
Arab and western experts concur that Hezbollah???s militia is a stronger fighting force than the Lebanese army that is supposed to disarm it under United Nations resolution 1559. Also, most soldiers in the official Lebanese army are Shi???ites who would balk at fighting their own.
Accounts concerning Hezb
ollah???s arsenal of weapons vary. The militia is said to be armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles and an Iranian rapid-fire gun initially modelled on the Israeli Uzi. The party???s crown jewels, however, are an estimated 14,000 rockets and missiles shipped in from Iran over the past six years. Most of these are modified versions of the Soviet-designed Katyusha. The party also has some Chinese-made Silkworm missiles for special use in naval warfare.
???The Israelis would be foolish to think they are dealing with nothing but a bunch of mad fanatics,??? says a former Iranian diplomat now in exile. ???Hezbollah in Lebanon is a state in all but name: it has its territory, army, civil service and economic and educational systems.???
A few minutes??? drive south from central Beirut takes you into what appears to be a different country. Beirut itself has European-style architecture, shops, hotels and cafes with men and women mostly wearing western clothes.
Once you enter Hezbollah land, the scene changes. You feel as if you are in Qom, the Iranian holy city, with men sporting bushy beards and women covered by mandatory hijab, milling around in noisy narrow streets fronted by nondescript shops. Billboards that advertise global bands in Beirut are used in Hezbollah land for pasting giant portraits of Khomeini and the Iranian ???supreme guide??? Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Not surprisingly Hezbollah describes its territory as ???Dar al-Iman??? (House of Faith).
When it took over southern Lebanon, Hezbollah found a territory devastated by years of domination by the Palestinian al-Fatah (the area had once been called Fatahland) and the Israeli invasion of 1982. There were almost no schools, no hospitals, few jobs and certainly no security.
Hezbollah provided all that. At the same time the movement imposed a strict religious code that gave the poor Shi???ites a sense of moral superiority over other Lebanese who aspired after western lifestyles. A generation of Shi???ites in southern Lebanon has grown up in a world shaped by Hezbollah???s radical ideology.
Over the years the Lebanese branch has been woven into Iran???s body politic. Many Hezbollah militants and officials have married into Iranian religious families, often connected to influential ayatollahs. Dozens of Lebanese Shi???ites have worked and continue to work in the Iranian administration, especially in the ministries of security, information and culture. Since the mid-1980s, most of the Lebanese Shi???ite clerics have undertaken training in Iran.
In exchange, thousands of Iranian security officers and members of the Revolutionary Guards have lived and worked in Lebanon. As Ali Yunesi, Iran???s former intelligence minister, said: ???Iran is Hezbollah and Hezbollah is Iran.???
Support for Hezbollah cuts across the political divides within the Iranian ruling establishment. Whether ???reformist??? or ???hardliner???, Iran???s ruling mullahs and their political associates look to Hezbollah as a reflection of their own revolutionary youth. Last week parliamentary members of the Islamic Majlis in Tehran set aside their disputes to unite in their demand to go and fight alongside Hezbollah in Lebanon if Sheikh Nasrallah called them.
Why has Tehran decided to play its Lebanese card now? Part of the answer lies in Washington???s decision last May to reverse its policy towards Iran by offering large concessions on its nuclear programme. Tehran interpreted that as a sign of weakness. Ahmadinejad believes that his strategy to drive the ???infidel??? out of the Islamic heartland cannot succeed unless Arabs accept Iran???s leadership.
The problem is that since the Iranian regime is Shi???ite it would not be easy to sell it to most Arabs, who are Sunni. To overcome that hurdle, it is necessary to persuade the Arabs that only Iran is sincere in its desire and capacity to wipe Israel off the map. Once that claim is sold to the Arabs, so Ahmadinejad hopes, they would rally behind his vision of the Middle East instead of the ???American vision???.
That strategy pushed Israel to the top of Tehran???s agenda. This is why, in May, Tehran became the first country to grant the Hamas government in the occupied territories an emergency grant of ??27m to cope with a freeze imposed by European Union aid and other international donations. As moderate Arab countries have distanced themselves from Hamas, Iran along with Syria has stepped in.
The pincer war launched by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel is also related to domestic politics. In the occupied territories, Hamas needs to marginalise Mahmoud Abbas???s PLO and establish itself as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. In Lebanon, Hezbollah wants to prevent the consolidation of power in the hands of a new pro-American coalition government led by Fouad Siniora, the prime minister, and Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader.
(Shi???ites make up about 40% of the population, Christians 39% and Sunnis, Druze and others the remainder.) If the pincer war against Israel is won, Iran would be able to expand its zone of influence, already taking shape in Iraq and assured in Syria, to take in Lebanon and Gaza. This would be the first time since the 7th century that Persian power has extended so far to the west.
The strategy is high risk. If the Israelis manage to crush Hamas and destroy Hezbollah???s military machine, Iran???s influence will diminish massively. Defeat could revive an internal Hezbollah debate between those who continue to support a total and exclusive alliance with Iran until the infidel, led by America, is driven out of the Middle East and those who want Hezbollah to distance itself from Tehran and emphasise its Lebanese identity. One reason why Hezbollah has found such little support among Arabs in Egypt and Saudi Arabia this time is the perception that it is fighting Israel on behalf of Iran, a Persian Shi???ite power that has been regarded by the majority of Arab Sunnis as an ancestral enemy.
In Lebanon, for the first time in two generations, a consensus is emerging among the country???s different ethnic and religious communities that the only way they can live together in peace is by developing a sense of Lebaneseness.
This means that Arab Sunnis must abandon their pan-Arab aspirations while Christians must stop looking to France as their ???original motherland???. In that context Hezbollah???s Iranian ideology cannot but antagonise the Sunnis, the Druze and the Christians, many of whom are angry at the destruction of their country that Hezbollah has brought about by once again antagonising Israel.
The mini war that is taking place between Israel and Hezbollah is, in fact, a proxy war in which Iran???s vision for the Middle East clashes with the administration in Washington. What is at stake is not the exchange of kidnapped Israeli soldiers with Arab prisoners in Israel. Such exchanges have happened routinely over five decades. The real issue is who will set the agenda for the Middle East: Iran or America?
his argument is well-thought out and reasoned and he is clearly able to engage in calm dialogue.
he may be talking in a calm cool manner but i don't think he really knows what he's talking about, he clearly does not know much about south africa if he is comparing it to israel
most of what he says is pure opinion aka pulling it out of his ass
I agree with your first statement and disagree with your second; unfortunately his argument is a popular one that needs to be rebutted.
Viewing the middle east in terms of Black and white, moreover in terms of race (as opposed to ethnic and tribal lineage) is an exercise in gross oversimplification.
I would imagine any one of you can successfully surround yourselves with people who agree with you; the entire point of this thread was exploring the issue for the benefit of people who don't know how to interpret these events. If you refuse to address a popular argument like the one advanced by AreDouble, no matter how misinformed or misguided, it is you that look over-opinionated.
his argument is well-thought out and reasoned and he is clearly able to engage in calm dialogue.
he may be talking in a calm cool manner but i don't think he really knows what he's talking about, he clearly does not know much about south africa if he is comparing it to israel
most of what he says is pure opinion aka pulling it out of his ass
I agree with your first statement and disagree with your second; unfortunately his argument is a popular one that needs to be rebutted.
Viewing the middle east in terms of Black and white, moreover in terms of race (as opposed to ethnic and tribal lineage) is an exercise in gross oversimplification.
I would imagine any one of you can successfully surround yourselves with people who agree with you; the entire point of this thread was exploring the issue for the benefit of people who don't know how to interpret these events. If you refuse to address a popular argument like the one advanced by AreDouble, no matter how misinformed or misguided, it is you that look over-opinionated.
Yes, hats off to Rootless for bringing interesting facts and opinions into the later pages of this thread, because frankly, the rest of the pro-Israel side got sonned and totally lost focus. The moral high ground crumbled and they got caught up in relativisms. There's a few who are clearly out of their depth. I'm not saying I'm not, but people need to recognize when to just read and shut up instead of being vindictive and making your side look bad. Guzzo, Cosmo. I'm out. Yes I've been to Haifa. Not Eilat.
I would imagine any one of you can successfully surround yourselves with people who agree with you;
its not always that easy, most of the people i surround myself with either don't give a shit, don't have any historical reference to this, or base their judgments on either their feelings about jews or muslims
the entire point of this thread was exploring the issue for the benefit of people who don't know how to interpret these events.
and i think that vitamin and rootless have done a good job a presenting facts about what has happened and what is happening while folks like aredouble are giving opinions and feelings and trying to present them as facts
most folks are swimming in a sea of misinformation about this topic, many because they never took the time to read about the history of the area and the conflict and so people go with their emotions about what they see in the news and media right now, and right now the palestinians and hezbollah are winning the pr war, it may have something to do with the fact that anymore people usually see the poorer or non industrialized side of any conflict as always being in the right. i was in my car most of last friday listening to npr and all the reports i heard on the conflict were done about the civilian causalities in lebanon, people crying and yelling about their young relatives being killed by israeli forces, many saying they were trying to escape when they were killed, they never mentioned that hezbollah is pretty much southern lebanon, that the group in ingrained in that area, they are the brothers and fathers of the woman and children of that area, i never heard one interview with israelis about what they are going through, the only interview with any israeli i heard in those 8 hours was a soldier who said something along the lines of "we are gonna get you", i don't know if this is bias or maybe npr didn't want to do interviews in bomb shelters and not one report on how hezbollah is intentionally trying to go for civilian casualties and using buck shot and shrapnel in their rockets
If you refuse to address a popular argument like the one advanced by AreDouble, no matter how misinformed or misguided, it is you that look over-opinionated.
i think rootless and vitamin did a fine job and i think they did prove aredouble wrong, the comments like "get the hell out of here with that shit" i think are coming out of frustration that dude is not being reasonable and keeps going with his ideas and comparisons even when proven wrong
and i also agree with ai these dudes that come out of hiding when its time to talk about this are a little
and you may notice which side they usually fall on
most folks are swimming in a sea of misinformation
especially Americans.
i was in my car most of last friday listening to npr and all the reports i heard on the conflict...in those 8 hours was ...
dude. NPR does not run for 8 hours. what are you talking about? morning edition? news and notes? all things considered? the world? marketplace? (the last two are PRI) also, there are very short NPR news updates throughout the day that many stations pick up and often repeat 3-4 times.
and i also agree with ai these dudes that come out of hiding when its time to talk about this are a little
thinking there is some secret nazi lurker force on soulstrut is plain silly.
most folks are swimming in a sea of misinformation
especially Americans.
i hope you are including yourself in this cause you def did not seem to know what is going on in the beginning of this thread
i was in my car most of last friday listening to npr and all the reports i heard on the conflict...in those 8 hours was ...
dude. NPR does not run for 8 hours. what are you talking about? morning edition? news and notes? all things considered? the world? marketplace? (the last two are PRI) also, there are very short NPR news updates throughout the day that many stations pick up and often repeat 3-4 times.
that is what iam talking about the news breaks (they were not repeated) and all things considered, world have its say is one of the funniest shows on radio, it proves that america does not have the market cornered on stupidity
and i also agree with ai these dudes that come out of hiding when its time to talk about this are a little
thinking there is some secret nazi lurker force on soulstrut is plain silly.
most folks are swimming in a sea of misinformation
especially Americans.
i hope you are including yourself in this cause you def did not seem to know what is going on in the beginning of this thread
i was in my car most of last friday listening to npr and all the reports i heard on the conflict...in those 8 hours was ...
dude. NPR does not run for 8 hours. what are you talking about? morning edition? news and notes? all things considered? the world? marketplace? (the last two are PRI) also, there are very short NPR news updates throughout the day that many stations pick up and often repeat 3-4 times.
that is what iam talking about the news breaks (they were not repeated) and all things considered, world have its say is one of the funniest shows on radio, it proves that america does not have the market cornered on stupidity
and i also agree with ai these dudes that come out of hiding when its time to talk about this are a little
thinking there is some secret nazi lurker force on soulstrut is plain silly.
yeah why cant they just be open about it like you
about the middle part. your response doesn't make sense.
Comments
I was commenting the article you linked, which concentrates mostly on historic times starting from the 7th century. Jews living under Islamic rule were discriminated against, yes, but not any more than Christians and definitely far less than, for example, Hindus. Europe was worse for Jews in those times, which may be surprising.
I love how you aggregate the groups, three of which are Arab and thus composed of second class citzens, sidestep this fact and then act as though you've presented a defeater to my argument. You've invalidated nothing. Further, while "Mizrachi" may in word have come to be understood to mean "a Zionist Jew not of European origin" (in fact, is this even how the term is used colloquially? Someone please chime in), I wonder what is the reality of the situation.
Additionally, and in reference to the Wikepedia article you cited, I want to say that I'm not going to defend nor have I ever defended Sharia law. We can go down a dead end "tu quo que" road, but I'm very much capable of recognizing cultural and religous chauvenism-- Goyim, Dhimmi, Heathen, whatever-- and if it hasn't already become obvious I think it's baseless; Which is precisely why I'm not going to write an intellectual blank check to a political movement which, no matter what diplomatic window dressing it puts on this week, has as its cornerstone a "God's Chosen People" justification.
And as far as being astoundingly offended by my envisioning Israel a resort for white people, sadly, my friend, the fact that it offended you doesn't make my characterization any less astoundingly accurate. A white person can buy a ticket to this resort merely by saying "I am a Jew," while people indigenous to the area are all too often relegated to looking in through the gates. The retort to this observation is often that I'm being racist or culturally insensitive. To whom? Wealthy white people who purport an ancient birthright to a land a thousand miles away from their ancestral homes? These same individuals are often eager to cite religious adherents of the same faith but different ethnicity to bolster their numbers and advance their claim, but significantly less willing to evenly distribute their "God given" privilege among these people. It's shameful and one of the reasons why as a Black person who is in part of West Indian Jewish heritage I would never accept the offer in the extremely unlikely event the Israeli government would even recognize me as a Jew. (This is assuming, contrary to fact, that I ever desired to live in the region or that I identfied as Jewish.) I have no reasonable cultural claim to Middle East land, and the terms under which I could live there would be so corrupt and dehumanizing to the people indigenous to the area, such a move would be despicable. And this is getting at what I was saying about Jewish Right of Return-- sorry if ROR needed clarifiying.
Oh, yeah-- I found this funny. "In a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks??? killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not "genocide", but the "brutal byproduct of war".[10] Lewis meant that it was not part of a plan to exterminate the entire Armenian race - not that it was justified or that it did not happen. Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and fined him one franc. [11][12]"
dude stop. you have no idea what you are talking about. Israel is overwhelmingly non-white. i'm sorry that this fact does not fit into your simplistic black-white dichotomy, but that's reality. now pick another argument from your post-colonial studies class because this one does not fit the situation.
... and mad corny at that.
And also Are Double, I find your tone in the above pieces to be infused with too many race and self-hatred issues to be objective. In my opinion, that is. No offense.
Dog, come off it. I signed up a little while back. Had been a reader of the board for a minute. Saw the discussion. Opened it.
Didn't realize that I had to have longtime Soul Strut cred to have an opinion. But that's okay, chief. You just lay back in the cut, observe, throw your little quip in here and there while adding nothing new to the conversation and Ima do me, OK? Uno.
- Are
Damn, Columbo. Where did this come from? Enquiring minds . . . Is this a "self hating Jew" retort? If so, not Jewish, but I appreciate the thoughtless copout. Again, lay back . . . .
For the benefit of people like Oliver, or Day, whose minds are not made up... if you guys find his posts so incredibly wrong it might be worthwhile to rebut them with arguments rather than insults.
My .02.
Today UN is calling Israel's flattening of Beirut a violation of international humanitarian law.
And in response to AI-- the concept of objectivity in one's assesment of the situation is mythical.
And yeah,
... about time. Not that the UN has any real power though.
TALKING TO YOU SON WHAT
Son you do not want it.
Yo, I just saw Raw Power in the supermarket.
I be seeing people out in the world.
I'll see you SILLY.
Yeah but as for dude, he definitely has well thought out arguements. His views differ from mine, but I'm not mad at that. I mainly pointed out the fact that his 7 posts were all up in this thread, as though he's been silently waiting for this topic to be raised. I always find that suspect, much like in the case with that Dolo Yeung and like the 2 or three other people who are on here. Nothing personal against him, nothing having to do with us having different opinions, just me making an observation (one that seems to have struck him somewhere.)As for this thread, him and Rootless can continue their "discussion" - I'm so far out of this shit it's not funny.
As for the race and self-hate issues that I picked up on, they're there, I just don't habe the time to pointg them out. Like 3 or 4 different lines here and there that are eye opening to say the least, that speak volumes. It made me totally look at what he wrote in a different light.
As for me, I'm out to the hooterville section.
yeah no thanks. i think there needs to be an elementary point of departure for a real constructive conversation to take place (e.g. this issue is not black and white). otherwise it's just a pissing contest. i just don't see that departure point anywhere between me and dude. i'll try to stay out of it with him....like i said i'll try to stay out of it...
I dunno, mang. It struck because there wasn't any sort of indication that you thought the arguments were well thought out. Just what appeared to be ad hominems. And now it seems like you're doing a sort of about-face.
You said it, I didn't. No offense, but I agree that the "fall back" option is the move to make, here.
As far as making race a significant issue of the discussion I definitely did that because I think it is one of the key issues in this debate. As far as the "self-hate" goes, I could only assume based upon what you and I had said that you were coming with the popular "self-hating Jew" quip, and, well, I'm not a Jew. . . Correct me if I missread this. . . Seriously, though-- Did you read the entire post(s) in question before you responded?
So what is suspect here? Is Cosmo saying these are aliases?
big fucking shock there.
Since you decided to grace the board with your over-opinionated/ unschooled sweetly ignorant self maybe you can give us some background as to where you're coming from with your hate of this imaginary white Israel.
Have you ever been to the country, or any part of the Middle East? if so please tell me what your impression of the area, its politics and the people.
inquiring Jews wanna know
We could keep that as an open question to anyone on this thread.
(A good starting point for most Americans is being able to even locate Israel on a map.)
he may be talking in a calm cool manner but i don't think he really knows what he's talking about, he clearly does not know much about south africa if he is comparing it to israel
most of what he says is pure opinion aka pulling it out of his ass
rootless my hats off to you for doing what your doing
a very good article about the history of Hezbollah
The Sunday Times July 23, 2006
God's army has plans to run the whole Middle East
Hezbollah, the group at the heart of the Lebanese conflict, is the spearhead of Iran???s ambitions to be a superpower, says Iranian commentator Amir Taheri
???You are the sun of Islam, shining on the universe!??? This is how Muhammad Khatami, the mullah who was president of Iran until last year, described Hezbollah last week. It would be no exaggeration to describe Hezbollah ??? the Lebanese Shi???ite militia ??? as Tehran???s regional trump card. Each time Tehran has played it, it has won. As war rages between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, Tehran policymakers think that this time, too, they can win.
???I invite the faithful to wait for good news,??? Iran???s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said last Tuesday. ???We shall soon witness the elimination of the Zionist stain of shame.???
What are the links between Hezbollah and Iran? In 1982 Iran had almost no influence in Lebanon. The Lebanese Shi???ite bourgeoisie that had had close ties with Iran when it was ruled by the Shah was horrified by the advent of the clerics who created an Islamic republic.
Seeking a bridgehead in Lebanon, Iran asked its ambassador to Damascus, Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour, a radical mullah, to create one. Mohtashamipour decided to open a branch in Lebanon of the Iranian Hezbollah (the party of God).
After many meetings in Lebanon Mohtashamipour succeeded: in its founding statement it committed itself to the ???creation of an Islamic republic in Lebanon???. To this end hundreds of Iranian mullahs, political ???educators??? and Islamic Revolutionary Guards were dispatched to Beirut.
Within two years several radical Shi???ite groups in Lebanon, including some with Marxist backgrounds, had united under the Hezbollah name and became the main force resisting the Israeli occupation of Lebanon after the expulsion of Yasser Arafat???s Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) in 1983.
Terror has been its principal weapon. Throughout the 1980s Hezbollah kidnapped more than 200 foreign nationals in Lebanon, most of them Americans or western Europeans (including Terry Waite, the Archbishop of Canterbury???s envoy). It organised the hijacking of civilian aircraft and more or less pioneered the idea of suicide bombings against American and French targets, killing almost 1,000 people, including 241 US marines in Beirut and 58 French paratroopers.
The campaign produced results. After Hezbollah???s attacks, France reduced its support for Saddam Hussein. America went further by supplying Iran with TOW anti-tank missiles, shipped via Israel, which helped to tip the Iran-Iraq war in favour of Iran. In exchange Iran ordered Hezbollah to release French and American hostages.
Once the Iran-Iraq war was over, Tehran found other uses for its Lebanese asset. It purged and then reshaped Hezbollah to influence the broader course of regional politics while using it to wage a low-intensity war against Israel.
In 2000, when the Israelis evacuated the strip they controlled in southern Lebanon, Tehran presented the event as the ???first victory of Islam over the Zionist crusader camp??? and Hezbollah was lauded across the Arab world. Hezbollah taunted the Israelis with billboards on the border reading, ???If you return, we return???.
To prop up that myth, Tehran invested in a propaganda campaign that included television ???documentaries???, feature films and books and magazine articles. The message was simple: while secular ideologies ??? from pan-Arabism to Arab socialism ??? had failed to liberate an inch of Arab territory, Islamism, in its Iranian Khomeinist version working through Hezbollah, had achieved ???total victory??? over Israel in Lebanon.
Since 1984 Iran has created branches of Hezbollah in more than 20 countries. None has equalled the success of the Lebanese branch, which until recently enjoyed something akin to cult status among Arabs, including non-Muslims, because of the way it stood up to Israel.
It has not even cost Iran very much. Hezbollah was launched with just ??13m. After that, according to best estimates, Iran spent ??32m to ??54m a year on its Lebanese assets. Even if we add the cost of training Hezbollah fighters and equipping them with hardware, Hezbollah (the strongest fighting force in the Middle East after Iran and Israel) has not cost Iran more than ??1.3 billion over two decades.
According to Naim Kassem, Hezbollah???s number two, the party has an annual budget of ??279m, much of which comes from businesses set up by the movement. These include a bank, a mortgage co-operative, an insurance company, a travel agency specialising in pilgrimages to Muslim holy places, several hotels, a chain of supermarkets and a number of urban bus and taxi companies.
In its power base in southern Lebanon, particularly south Beirut and the Bekaa valley, it is possible for a visitor to spend a whole week without stepping outside a Hezbollah business unit: the hotel he checks into, the restaurant he eats in, the taxi that takes him around, the guide who shows him the sights and the shop where he buys souvenirs all belong to the party.
Hezbollah is a state within the Lebanese state. It controls some 25% of the national territory. Almost 400,000 of Lebanon???s estimated 4m inhabitants live under its control. It collects its own taxes with a 20% levy, known as ???khoms???, on all incomes. It runs its own schools, where a syllabus produced in Iran is taught at all levels. It also runs clinics, hospitals, social welfare networks and centres for orphans and widows.
The party controls the elected municipal councils and appoints local officials, who in theory should be selected by the central government in Beirut. To complete its status as a virtual state, the party maintains a number of unofficial ???embassies???: the one in Tehran is bigger and has a larger number of staff than that of Lebanon itself.
Hezbollah also has its own media including a satellite television channel, Al-Manar (the lighthouse), which is watched all over the Arab world, four radio stations, newspapers and magazines plus a book publishing venture. The party has its own system of justice based on sharia and operates its own police force, courts and prisons. Hezbollah runs youth clubs, several football teams and a number of matrimonial agencies.
Its relationship with the rest of Lebanon is complex; it occupies 14 seats in the 128-seat national assembly and holds two portfolios in the council of ministers. But it still describes itself as ???a people-based movement fighting on behalf of the Muslim world???.
The backbone of all that is Hezbollah???s militia, a fighting force of about 8,000 men, trained and armed with the latest weapons by Iran and Syria. Of these about 2,000 men represent an elite force under the direct command of the party???s secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah, a former pupil of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the man who founded Iran???s Islamic republic. But the party also claims more than 30,000 reservists.
Arab and western experts concur that Hezbollah???s militia is a stronger fighting force than the Lebanese army that is supposed to disarm it under United Nations resolution 1559. Also, most soldiers in the official Lebanese army are Shi???ites who would balk at fighting their own.
Accounts concerning Hezb ollah???s arsenal of weapons vary. The militia is said to be armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles and an Iranian rapid-fire gun initially modelled on the Israeli Uzi. The party???s crown jewels, however, are an estimated 14,000 rockets and missiles shipped in from Iran over the past six years. Most of these are modified versions of the Soviet-designed Katyusha. The party also has some Chinese-made Silkworm missiles for special use in naval warfare.
???The Israelis would be foolish to think they are dealing with nothing but a bunch of mad fanatics,??? says a former Iranian diplomat now in exile. ???Hezbollah in Lebanon is a state in all but name: it has its territory, army, civil service and economic and educational systems.???
A few minutes??? drive south from central Beirut takes you into what appears to be a different country. Beirut itself has European-style architecture, shops, hotels and cafes with men and women mostly wearing western clothes.
Once you enter Hezbollah land, the scene changes. You feel as if you are in Qom, the Iranian holy city, with men sporting bushy beards and women covered by mandatory hijab, milling around in noisy narrow streets fronted by nondescript shops. Billboards that advertise global bands in Beirut are used in Hezbollah land for pasting giant portraits of Khomeini and the Iranian ???supreme guide??? Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Not surprisingly Hezbollah describes its territory as ???Dar al-Iman??? (House of Faith).
When it took over southern Lebanon, Hezbollah found a territory devastated by years of domination by the Palestinian al-Fatah (the area had once been called Fatahland) and the Israeli invasion of 1982. There were almost no schools, no hospitals, few jobs and certainly no security.
Hezbollah provided all that. At the same time the movement imposed a strict religious code that gave the poor Shi???ites a sense of moral superiority over other Lebanese who aspired after western lifestyles. A generation of Shi???ites in southern Lebanon has grown up in a world shaped by Hezbollah???s radical ideology.
Over the years the Lebanese branch has been woven into Iran???s body politic. Many Hezbollah militants and officials have married into Iranian religious families, often connected to influential ayatollahs. Dozens of Lebanese Shi???ites have worked and continue to work in the Iranian administration, especially in the ministries of security, information and culture. Since the mid-1980s, most of the Lebanese Shi???ite clerics have undertaken training in Iran.
In exchange, thousands of Iranian security officers and members of the Revolutionary Guards have lived and worked in Lebanon. As Ali Yunesi, Iran???s former intelligence minister, said: ???Iran is Hezbollah and Hezbollah is Iran.???
Support for Hezbollah cuts across the political divides within the Iranian ruling establishment. Whether ???reformist??? or ???hardliner???, Iran???s ruling mullahs and their political associates look to Hezbollah as a reflection of their own revolutionary youth. Last week parliamentary members of the Islamic Majlis in Tehran set aside their disputes to unite in their demand to go and fight alongside Hezbollah in Lebanon if Sheikh Nasrallah called them.
Why has Tehran decided to play its Lebanese card now? Part of the answer lies in Washington???s decision last May to reverse its policy towards Iran by offering large concessions on its nuclear programme. Tehran interpreted that as a sign of weakness. Ahmadinejad believes that his strategy to drive the ???infidel??? out of the Islamic heartland cannot succeed unless Arabs accept Iran???s leadership.
The problem is that since the Iranian regime is Shi???ite it would not be easy to sell it to most Arabs, who are Sunni. To overcome that hurdle, it is necessary to persuade the Arabs that only Iran is sincere in its desire and capacity to wipe Israel off the map. Once that claim is sold to the Arabs, so Ahmadinejad hopes, they would rally behind his vision of the Middle East instead of the ???American vision???.
That strategy pushed Israel to the top of Tehran???s agenda. This is why, in May, Tehran became the first country to grant the Hamas government in the occupied territories an emergency grant of ??27m to cope with a freeze imposed by European Union aid and other international donations. As moderate Arab countries have distanced themselves from Hamas, Iran along with Syria has stepped in.
The pincer war launched by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel is also related to domestic politics. In the occupied territories, Hamas needs to marginalise Mahmoud Abbas???s PLO and establish itself as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. In Lebanon, Hezbollah wants to prevent the consolidation of power in the hands of a new pro-American coalition government led by Fouad Siniora, the prime minister, and Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader.
(Shi???ites make up about 40% of the population, Christians 39% and Sunnis, Druze and others the remainder.) If the pincer war against Israel is won, Iran would be able to expand its zone of influence, already taking shape in Iraq and assured in Syria, to take in Lebanon and Gaza. This would be the first time since the 7th century that Persian power has extended so far to the west.
The strategy is high risk. If the Israelis manage to crush Hamas and destroy Hezbollah???s military machine, Iran???s influence will diminish massively. Defeat could revive an internal Hezbollah debate between those who continue to support a total and exclusive alliance with Iran until the infidel, led by America, is driven out of the Middle East and those who want Hezbollah to distance itself from Tehran and emphasise its Lebanese identity. One reason why Hezbollah has found such little support among Arabs in Egypt and Saudi Arabia this time is the perception that it is fighting Israel on behalf of Iran, a Persian Shi???ite power that has been regarded by the majority of Arab Sunnis as an ancestral enemy.
In Lebanon, for the first time in two generations, a consensus is emerging among the country???s different ethnic and religious communities that the only way they can live together in peace is by developing a sense of Lebaneseness.
This means that Arab Sunnis must abandon their pan-Arab aspirations while Christians must stop looking to France as their ???original motherland???. In that context Hezbollah???s Iranian ideology cannot but antagonise the Sunnis, the Druze and the Christians, many of whom are angry at the destruction of their country that Hezbollah has brought about by once again antagonising Israel.
The mini war that is taking place between Israel and Hezbollah is, in fact, a proxy war in which Iran???s vision for the Middle East clashes with the administration in Washington. What is at stake is not the exchange of kidnapped Israeli soldiers with Arab prisoners in Israel. Such exchanges have happened routinely over five decades. The real issue is who will set the agenda for the Middle East: Iran or America?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2281184_1,00.html
I agree with your first statement and disagree with your second; unfortunately his argument is a popular one that needs to be rebutted.
Viewing the middle east in terms of Black and white, moreover in terms of race (as opposed to ethnic and tribal lineage) is an exercise in gross oversimplification.
I would imagine any one of you can successfully surround yourselves with people who agree with you; the entire point of this thread was exploring the issue for the benefit of people who don't know how to interpret these events. If you refuse to address a popular argument like the one advanced by AreDouble, no matter how misinformed or misguided, it is you that look over-opinionated.
Yes, hats off to Rootless for bringing interesting facts and opinions into the later pages of this thread, because frankly, the rest of the pro-Israel side got sonned and totally lost focus. The moral high ground crumbled and they got caught up in relativisms. There's a few who are clearly out of their depth. I'm not saying I'm not, but people need to recognize when to just read and shut up instead of being vindictive and making your side look bad. Guzzo, Cosmo. I'm out. Yes I've been to Haifa. Not Eilat.
its not always that easy, most of the people i surround myself with either don't give a shit, don't have any historical reference to this, or base their judgments on either their feelings about jews or muslims
and i think that vitamin and rootless have done a good job a presenting facts about what has happened and what is happening while folks like aredouble are giving opinions and feelings and trying to present them as facts
most folks are swimming in a sea of misinformation about this topic, many because they never took the time to read about the history of the area and the conflict and so people go with their emotions about what they see in the news and media right now, and right now the palestinians and hezbollah are winning the pr war, it may have something to do with the fact that anymore people usually see the poorer or non industrialized side of any conflict as always being in the right. i was in my car most of last friday listening to npr and all the reports i heard on the conflict were done about the civilian causalities in lebanon, people crying and yelling about their young relatives being killed by israeli forces, many saying they were trying to escape when they were killed, they never mentioned that hezbollah is pretty much southern lebanon, that the group in ingrained in that area, they are the brothers and fathers of the woman and children of that area, i never heard one interview with israelis about what they are going through, the only interview with any israeli i heard in those 8 hours was a soldier who said something along the lines of "we are gonna get you", i don't know if this is bias or maybe npr didn't want to do interviews in bomb shelters and not one report on how hezbollah is intentionally trying to go for civilian casualties and using buck shot and shrapnel in their rockets
i think rootless and vitamin did a fine job and i think they did prove aredouble wrong, the comments like "get the hell out of here with that shit" i think are coming out of frustration that dude is not being reasonable and keeps going with his ideas and comparisons even when proven wrong
and i also agree with ai these dudes that come out of hiding when its time to talk about this are a little
and you may notice which side they usually fall on
dude. NPR does not run for 8 hours. what are you talking about? morning edition? news and notes? all things considered? the world? marketplace? (the last two are PRI) also, there are very short NPR news updates throughout the day that many stations pick up and often repeat 3-4 times.
thinking there is some secret nazi lurker force on soulstrut is plain silly.
i hope you are including yourself in this cause you def did not seem to know what is going on in the beginning of this thread
that is what iam talking about the news breaks (they were not repeated) and all things considered, world have its say is one of the funniest shows on radio, it proves that america does not have the market cornered on stupidity
yeah why cant they just be open about it like you
none of that was personal towards you. and you come back with two personal swipes at me. the last saying you think i'm a nazi.
take a break.
about the middle part. your response doesn't make sense.