TAKE THAT SHIT TO THE-BRITS.COM

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  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts
    Yeah in the cold light of day and having read a million think pieces on it I'm sure Britain, in whatever form it takes, will survive ok. After all, it's the natural state of the Isles to be isolationist and the EU membership was more of an experimental blip than the norm.

    From a selfish point of view I'm still worried about what long term impact this will have on the life I'm living now along with a lot of my friends both here and those who settled in the UK from abroad.

    From a less selfish point of view I am genuinely scared about what this means for the general rise of isolationist and right wing politics across Europe. The pattern is repeating itself over and over again and I can't see this all ending with everyone getting along.  


  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    So do you all consider 'Europe' needs to take a message from Brexit and the rise of populist national movements, and do some thinking around 'change'?

    Because it's clear that all is not well. 

  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts
    Oh yeah absolutely. The current EU setup is a clusterfuck that does itself no favours and buries the good it does underneath all the bollocks. I hope that this is a wake up call for them about how they are perceived and they actually do something about it before the disillusionment grows any worse.

    Which is why it's even more frustrating that Britain is now going to have no direct say in changing it, or at least not in the short term.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    I think we've never been able to change it.
    And I think a Brexit type event might be the only thing that would force it to look in the mirror.
    Ive had interesting messages from India, Japan and the US today.
    Basic line was UK has often been in the vanguard of change, and this one is desperately needed.

  • JimsterJimster Twilight Zone/ Al Capone/ Rolling Stone/ Eva Perón 6,269 Posts
    I think that, for some time now, there has been a lingering feeling amongst the richer EU states that they have been subsidising the stay-a-bed, ne'er-do-well lifestyles of other er.. less industrious nations and their imaginary economies.

    In team Europe, the gesticulating workshy goalhangers have not gone un-noticed by the box-to-box-midfielder, triffic- engine-type players.  They don't like the look of the subs bench either.  Britain has just been the first to walk off the pitch in disgust.  If Klaus takes the ball home, there's not going to be anyone left to have a kick around and the Chinese and Merimans will get a bye all the way.

    I can understand the frustration, but I came to the view that petty in-squad bickering will not bestow Team Euromang with global gravitas.  That was the bigger picture.  But they listened to Joey Barton instead of Bobby Robson.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    The bigger picture means nothing in these contexts: "workers rights" to zero hours contract dude in Sunderland; "freedom of movement" to builder in Brum being undercut by gangs of eastern Euroman; "Europe is our biggest trading partner" to Swansea wasteland dweller who's job got outsourced. 

    And for Moke, you've been pissed off by 2 successive general election results and now this. How you want to stay in a country that does it all opposite to what you hold dear?
    Thats essentially the question that was asked of the U.K. And they spoke.


  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
    Do you actually believe that Brexit will change any of that? Zero hour contracts aren't a product of the EU. Eastern Europeans in Brum and elsewhere aren't going anywhere soon. And businesses will continue to out source jobs in a global economy. Most of these issues seem to have been brought on or exacerbated by the fanacial collapse caused by greedy bankers. What exactly about destabilising the economy further and Boris's Brexit is actually going to change any of these issues for the better? 

    Growing up in the 80s under successive Thatcher governments you get used to the idea that the country is full of idiots and selfish cunts. It's nothing new. The things I hold dear about this country have never really been represented by the establishment. 

    I don't hold the EU dear. I think the idea of a better managed immigration system is a good one.

    I found the Leave campaign distasteful. The murder of an MP is a sad illustration of just how dangerous a game the right wing have been playing. When the 'people' spoke did they say it's cool to fan the flames of fascism or was that just acceptable collateral damage on the road to getting what they wanted? I'm confused by which part of this you're actually in support of? 

    Causing such financial turmoil when our economy is still struggling seems like madness. I'm sure the Tories can just cut a few more billion from disabled people's benefits to give to the banks, what's a few more dead disabled people. The people spoke in the last election and said they're not important already. What are their lives compared to some nebulous ideals. 

    I still have no clue what it is Brexit is actually going to do for us? What is it exactly the 'the people' have said by voting leave? I'm pretty sure the majority of them don't know either. 

    Forget it. talking politics on the internet is fucking futile. 
    para11ax

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,255 Posts
    2 TRILLION wiped off stock markets, and Britain's credit rating lowered (or just at risk of?). Wall Street firms looking to take their business elsewhere. It's all looking so great, this freedom they've taken back.

    How about this for the face of a man who just wanted to score some political points and didn't think he'd actually win:



    The fucking idiot looks apologetic, and the tone of his "victory" speech was hardly triumphalist (unlike the racist tosspot Farrage who appears to be relishing the destruction of the union).

  • JimsterJimster Twilight Zone/ Al Capone/ Rolling Stone/ Eva Perón 6,269 Posts
    skel said:
    The bigger picture means nothing in these contexts: "workers rights" to zero hours contract dude in Sunderland; "freedom of movement" to builder in Brum being undercut by gangs of eastern Euroman; "Europe is our biggest trading partner" to Swansea wasteland dweller who's job got outsourced.
    Eastern euromang is living somewhere cheap and making his money where the work pays best.  It's what people are going to have to do.  Unfortunately it's not realistic to expect there to be jobs for everyone on their doorstep anymore.  Hence I had to move 100 miles away and currently have to do a 120 mile round-trip to earn decent money. It's not going back to the old days, regardless of who is in charge.

    Maybe I am being naive in expecting everyone to have the same level of drive but I personally didn't want to stay on my Widnes council estate with f*ck all.  I don't expect something for nothing.  It breaks my heart as my folks are in their twighlight years and I wish I was there to help them on the daily, but there is no work there and no prospect for my kids.



  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    It's pitiful that a certain section of the populace think no-one other than themselves can make a decision, because of course only they are the enlightened elite.


  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    2 TRILLION wiped off stock markets, and Britain's credit rating lowered (or just at risk of?). Wall Street firms looking to take their business elsewhere. It's all looking so great, this freedom they've taken back.

    Leo, do you have a portfolio of stocks, or started working for a hedge fund, or have a big pension pot, or accumulated units in investment trusts?
    If not, why do you care if trillions are wiped off of stock market valuations?
    These things only really impact wealthy investors (who I believe you have railed against in the past), the older generation (I.e. those who most voted Brexit) and big corporation CEOs, the fat cats who you have spoken against before.
    I must be missing something here.
    I guessed you might be cheering that stock markets fall.
    As for UK credit rating, again, how will it affect you? Do you have a £ mortgage or other chunky loan?
    Or do you own UK government bonds, or a credit default swap?

    And probably the first short term casualty of Brexit is London financial services jobs - those overpaid nonces who caused the austerity crises of recent years.
    Isnt this a deserved payback?
    What say you?


  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    Jimster said:
    skel said:
    The bigger picture means nothing in these contexts: "workers rights" to zero hours contract dude in Sunderland; "freedom of movement" to builder in Brum being undercut by gangs of eastern Euroman; "Europe is our biggest trading partner" to Swansea wasteland dweller who's job got outsourced.
    Eastern euromang is living somewhere cheap and making his money where the work pays best.  It's what people are going to have to do.  Unfortunately it's not realistic to expect there to be jobs for everyone on their doorstep anymore.  Hence I had to move 100 miles away and currently have to do a 120 mile round-trip to earn decent money. It's not going back to the old days, regardless of who is in charge.

    Maybe I am being naive in expecting everyone to have the same level of drive but I personally didn't want to stay on my Widnes council estate with f*ck all.  I don't expect something for nothing.  It breaks my heart as my folks are in their twighlight years and I wish I was there to help them on the daily, but there is no work there and no prospect for my kids.


    And you think this message is a vote winner? The biggest worry for Remain should be that they have failed to learn from the big lesson that the British electorate has just taught them; i.e it was sanctimonious, contemptuous and arrogant attitudes that were the main reason that they lost this vote in the first place. Funnily enough, patronising people and calling them thick (or fascists) doesn't turn out to be an effective way of winning people over to your arguments....who'd have thought it, eh?
    soulcitizen

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    And for the avoidance of doubt, I didn't vote Leave.

    I kind of wish I had done now, after seeing the disgusting reaction of generation entitled hissy fit drama princess, the arrogance of Euro leaders, the metropolitan elite, the out of touch politicos talmbout access to the single market, skilled incoming workers....smfh.
    Seeing how far they are away from daily reality it is no wonder the voters saw through the bullshit. They saw who wins in a Remain future, and guess what: it wasn't you Jim, or you Leo, or indeed them.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    Okem said:
    Do you actually believe that Brexit will change any of that? Zero hour contracts aren't a product of the EU. Eastern Europeans in Brum and elsewhere aren't going anywhere soon. And businesses will continue to out source jobs in a global economy. Most of these issues seem to have been brought on or exacerbated by the fanacial collapse caused by greedy bankers. What exactly about destabilising the economy further and Boris's Brexit is actually going to change any of these issues for the better? 

    Growing up in the 80s under successive Thatcher governments you get used to the idea that the country is full of idiots and selfish cunts. It's nothing new. The things I hold dear about this country have never really been represented by the establishment. 

    I don't hold the EU dear. I think the idea of a better managed immigration system is a good one.

    I found the Leave campaign distasteful. The murder of an MP is a sad illustration of just how dangerous a game the right wing have been playing. When the 'people' spoke did they say it's cool to fan the flames of fascism or was that just acceptable collateral damage on the road to getting what they wanted? I'm confused by which part of this you're actually in support of? 

    Causing such financial turmoil when our economy is still struggling seems like madness. I'm sure the Tories can just cut a few more billion from disabled people's benefits to give to the banks, what's a few more dead disabled people. The people spoke in the last election and said they're not important already. What are their lives compared to some nebulous ideals. 

    I still have no clue what it is Brexit is actually going to do for us? What is it exactly the 'the people' have said by voting leave? I'm pretty sure the majority of them don't know either. 

    Forget it. talking politics on the internet is fucking futile. 
    I get it. You didn't like the way a democratic vote panned out. Perhaps you'd prefer a system where our betters decide for us, eh?

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    And for all dudes who can say exactly what the future looks like, there are many ways to make a fortune out of that knowledge.
    Send me some cash, we'll split profits 90/10 your favour; if u wrong, losses are yours.
    Or maybe you have just as much clue as I do.

    FWIW, I'm betting on developments that lead us to remain, with a confidence level of 55%.

  • Big_StacksBig_Stacks "I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
    Hey,

    For what it's worth, I appreciate the recent line of discussion in this thread about the U.K. leaving the EU.  I don't think thoughtful discourse gets sufficient credit on the 'Strut.  I thank you guys for the insightful look into the events, which do have me a bit concerned (financially, anyway).  In typical Libran fashion, I can see both sides of the issue, and I think the optimal state is somewhere between the Brexit versus remain extremes.  Nonetheless, I can see the bigger industrial nations being unfairly pressed into subsidizing less financially solvent ones.  However, I see trade agreements between nations as a means, if managed properly, of perpetuating economic stability across nations, which isn't a bad thing.  It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

    Peace,

    Big Stacks from Kakalak

  • ketanketan Warmly booming riffs 2,430 Posts
    This is worth reading if you're puzzled by the logic of Leave'rs:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-britons-who-voted-to-leave-the-eu

    (But Skel lays out some wisdom too...)

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,255 Posts
    No, I have no investments/stocks etc, but one of Leave's messages and major gripes (obviously a distant second or third to immigration) was that the EU was costing the UK too much, and Leave was campaigning on a message of being better off (financially).
    Whether or not I agree with it, trickle-down economics is the model the UK is running on, and the country has been reliant on The City since Maggy gutted our industry and turned us into a service economy... and if there's one thing we've all learnt from 2008, it's that the super rich never pay for their losses - the poor do, so those kind of hits are going to hurt the working class in some shape or form. You'd be naive to think otherwise.

    Reading retarded comments from people on social media you'd think the EU is to blame for austerity, no jobs, crumbling infrastructure, shit weather, global warming, or problem X, from people with literally no idea nor interest in the good that came from membership. The older-younger voting disparity is quite sickening too, but that's no surprise when the older generation want their property prices to rise, their pensions to remain stable, and foreigners they've never met to stay out.

    I didn't vote as I think it would've been hypocritical of me to tell people in the UK what they have to live with. As it turns out, turning my back on the UK has just become that much easier.

    Also, thread will need re-titling. Take that sh*t to the English&Welsh.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    Hey,

    For what it's worth, I appreciate the recent line of discussion in this thread about the U.K. leaving the EU.  I don't think thoughtful discourse gets sufficient credit on the 'Strut.  I thank you guys for the insightful look into the events, which do have me a bit concerned (financially, anyway).  In typical Libran fashion, I can see both sides of the issue, and I think the optimal state is somewhere between the Brexit versus remain extremes.  Nonetheless, I can see the bigger industrial nations being unfairly pressed into subsidizing less financially solvent ones.  However, I see trade agreements between nations as a means, if managed properly, of perpetuating economic stability across nations, which isn't a bad thing.  It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

    Peace,

    Big Stacks from Kakalak
    Hi Stacks

    i recall that you left S. Carolina to pursue a better future.
    Jimster likewise, Duder, McCoy and Junior too.
    I'll bet in all cases there were doom-mongers, and no doubt you faced varying degrees of trepidation; and, no doubt, went through periods of regret.
    But looking back, you all mostly in a better place and you made things turn out alright in the end.
    And so will the UK.

    Ultimately, Europe in its current form is unsustainable in the medium and long term. The currency is built on quicksand. The varying cultures won't be homogenised. The rich will not continue subsidising the poor indefinitely. The U.K. has always had an uneasy relationship with it. We have many opt-outs, wouldn't join the Euro and plenty of other areas of dis-harmony. These could not continue ad infinitum.

    We may well see the break up of the U.K. now.
    That is also an ultimately unsustainable Union along mini EU lines. 

    Some will be filled with fear, some with liberation. But we've come through millennia of setbacks. We have a track record of bouncing back. Of innovation, of venturing out, of being bold.
    Embrace the future, Britpeoples of Soul Strut!

    And until further notice, I will be avoiding Euroman lager and wine. Just saying.




  • JimsterJimster Twilight Zone/ Al Capone/ Rolling Stone/ Eva Perón 6,269 Posts
    skel said:And you think this message is a vote winner?
    Telling people they can't get something for nothing? No.  But I am not running for office.

    You win by telling them what they want to hear.  Less tax.  Free money.  Everyone on 200K a year for stacking shelves.  No more muslims.  Horseshit like Trump.

    Don't you think the elephant in the room is, that for the average man, the UK is fucked as everything can be done cheaper elsewhere?  I want to hear how that will be fixed, so I can pay off my yard and see my kids have a life.  Will leaving the EU stop the captains of industry outsourcing IT or moving their manufacturing to China?  If the UK economy crashes like Greece did, I would want the bailout from the EU like Greece did.

    That is no longer an option.

    Better get our hustles on.







  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
    skel said:
    I get it. You didn't like the way a democratic vote panned out. Perhaps you'd prefer a system where our betters decide for us, eh?
    Where I live Labour barely even field a candidate, so a vote for them is utterly pointless. Democracy in action. 

    Skel, if I wanted to invest my life savings who would I be better off giving my money to, an expert with years of experience in the field or an electrician who occasionally reads the financial section of the Daily Mail? I thought the whole idea behind democracy was that we elected (hopefully) knowledgeable people into a position to make informed decisions for us the people (who are generally busy with other stuff).

    The result of the general election had a direct and negative effect on my life, as it it did many others. My sister has a disabled son and her local UKIP candidate, when asked about disability benefits, said 'on the farm we solve that problem with a hammer at birth'. Bury your head in the sand if you want but these are the kind of people at the vanguard of this 'people's movement'. This is not purely partisan whining or some nebulous ideals we're discussing here and it's not only theoretical working men from forgotten industrial towns with genuine gripes or worries. 

    Cornwall is one of the poorest areas in the country. It's been mostly ignored by successive UK governments and it wasn't until it qualified for EU grants that it started getting more appropriate financial aid. But it voted overwhelmingly in favour of Leave. Yes politicians are disconnected from the people, but the people are also completely disconnected from politics. They are too often ill informed (to the point of being wholly ignorant when it comes to the EU) partially because there is but always has been that disconnect, but it's compounded by a biased press that encourages a climate of fear and ignorance. This isn't some slight on the Right or the common man, this is the sad truth of it across the board https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3742/The-Perils-of-Perception-and-the-EU.aspx
    To take a poorly informed, disconnected, disenfranchised populace and manipulate them with a bunch of lies and false promises is an utter failing of democracy. That's what is unsettling, not some 'my side lost princess hissyfit' bullshit. 

    And I've still yet to hear anything beyond empty rhetoric on how Brexit is actually going to change anything for the better. They're not going halt globalisation, they simply want a different flavour of it. Boris & Gove aren't any more connected to the people than Dave & Gideon pretended to be. The same Tories that brought us austerity and zero hour contracts are still in power. EU migrants living in Brum or wherever aren't leaving so competition for labour will stay the same. Immigration under Brexit is in fact forecast to go up in order to meet economic needs. The disappearance of EU funding will make the poorest areas worse off. The economic downturn caused by Brexit will exacerbate most economic issues, leading to further hardship for everybody who's suffered over the last 8 years. Cameron stepping down has handed a poisoned chalice to whoever takes over, leaving a divided party and making a difficult job one none of them really want to take on.
    Where is this bright future coming from exactly?

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,255 Posts
    Great match between France & Ireland btw.

  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
    Ireland voted Brexit. 


  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts


    If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

    Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

    With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

    How?

    Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

    And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

    The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

    The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

    Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

    Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

    If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

    The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

    When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

    All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.




  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    Being in the EU never stopped any of those bad things tho, eh? Plenty recessions, crises, even wars.
    And so its point is what, exactly?

  • FlomotionFlomotion 2,386 Posts
    That's like saying we still have crime, so what's the use of the old bill? And when was the last war in Europe that involved EU member states? 

  • OkemOkem 4,617 Posts
    skel said:
    Being in the EU never stopped any of those bad things tho, eh? Plenty recessions, crises, even wars.
    And so its point is what, exactly?
    That's not the point and you know it. Brexit was sold to the people as a solution to these issues. You have justified it as a response to these issues. But as far as i can tell no solutions are actually being offered, it's just empty rhetoric aimed to win the populist vote without any real thought on the actual consequences. 

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,028 Posts
    Falklands? Iraq, Kuwait, Balkans? Afghanistan?
    Im no historian, but they looked like wars to me and we are a member state.

    And Moke, was the EU not instrumental in cutting the Cornish fishing industry by two thirds? By allowing other EU states to fish your waters?
    And replaced it with what? 60m quids worth of education centres?

    These aren't good trades.

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