ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:
ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
Oh, and by the way, these are for better or worse my own words and my own thoughts, hence the absence of hyperlinks and long transcripts and so on. I'm not trying to claim someone else's argument as my own, nor am I afraid of being wrong on any of the above points. In fact, I'd be happy if I turned out to be wrong about all of it.
ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:
ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
DocMcCoy said:
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
It is widely belived that muslim chechen rebels (amongst many other "freedom fighters" all over the world, including Afghani and tourist Jihadis) received financial and military support from within the USA, if not directly than from the country's security services. Israel as we already know, is bankrolled by the USA.
Does this make either Israelis', or Palestinian's positions irrelevant? Rich countries around the world will always seek to influence events around the world, and desperate people will accept help wherever it is offered. I was trying to highlight your apparent parroting of Israel's official line - I saw Mark Regev saying this almost word for word on newsnight a week or so ago - That in razing Gaza even further into the dirt, they are merely dealing with exactly the same kind of Islamic Jihadism encountered eleswhere around the world, so what's the problem? This ignores the fact that Gaza is a prison enclave under Israeli control, where Palestinians' only hope for peace is to accept the facts on the ground and resign themselves to forever living in a prison enclave.
DocMcCoy said:
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
I didn't say it was just anything, I certainly wouldn't try to lay the blame for it at the door of Israel, and your suggestion that I or anyone else in this thread who questions Israel's actions "couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered" is a hysterical strawman attack.
The kurds, a people who were being hailed as heroes for retaking areas captured by Isis on the news tonight, were slaughtered in their thousands (that's what genocide actually is) by Saddam Hussain , who had full support from the USA thoughout that time. Saddam portrayed the Kurds as terrorists. History and wikipedia seem to have portrayed them as freedom fighters with control of their own autonomous region, but of course the PKK still are regarded as a terrorist organisation, despite Ocalan's repeated calls for dialogue and an end to conflict. Maybe if they could carve out a genuinely autonomous region, the Palestinians would be regarded as oppressed people who fought for freedom
Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
staxwax said:
Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
Tangentially, whilst I have no intention of seeking out the latest bit of ISIS snuff-porn, I am assured from some of the people who've watched it that the guy who decapitated James Foley had a British accent. We're going to have to suck it up when people like him finally return to the UK, whether ISIS is defeated or not. What's needed is for someone in politics to stand up and spell it out: the current situation in Iraq is not us choosing a fight, it is a fight that has picked us, and we have no alternative but to win it. These people are fascists, straight up, and appeasing them will not work. They want to die, and they want to take as many of us with them as they can - in case this hasn't been obvious since, oh, I dunno...September 11th 2001.
In terms of the British Muslim community...well, we've either alienated or failed to integrate huge swathes of them and now jihad is many young Muslims' equivalent of punk or football hooliganism ÔÇô their fuck you to the establishment ÔÇô except it is lavishly financed, heavily armed and sanctions murder. No idea how you address that without solutions most would consider authoritarian and that would give liberals like me conniptions.
There'll be another atrocity in London eventually. Perhap that will concentrate minds.
Well the same is happening all over europe doc - a radicalised dutch turkish kurd fighting with IS was just killed by kurdish forces. He had been posing online with decapitated victims. This was a kid from the suburbs. If these guys end up in anyones backyard, anywhere in the world, there is but one answer. Post war Berlin and the horrors of Hiroshima should serve as a reminder of the ultimate consequences to those who choose to take up arms and seek the destruction of free and open societies by means of terror, intimidation or open warfare.
Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
Rightgeous indignation has moved elsewhere.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
This is not a black and white cut and dry situation where israel should just 'quit targeting civilians backed by all the money in the world.'
First of all - the ceasefire that existed has effectively ended again after hamas -bankrolled by their vile, fascist, and terrorist backers - continued firing rockets - at Israeli civilians. so once again they have initiated armed conflict in order to assume the victims role.
what else could they possibly have hoped to gain if not a continued conflict with no end in sight to the suffering (martyring) of their own people? Secondly - Hamas is a Palestinian organization, elected and supported by and consisting of palestinians - thirdly hamas operates purposefully from within civilian enclosures to ensure maximum PR damage when Israel inevitably retaliates - so how can the line between civilians and hamas not blur? it is a strategy. And lastly hamas and their ilk most definitely see this as an islamic vs. judeo-christian conflict which is effectively a never ending conflict from their own pov - until one side is 'wiped out'. But god forbid Israel should react disproportionately - which they may have very well done - they should just endure a constant fanatical terrorist threat in their backyard because, well the occupied territories. The only way forward is a complete denouncement by the palestinians of their current leadership.
Live in a concentration camp, or fight the people who put you there?
DocMcCoy said:
This piece from, of all places, Gawker's dedicated sports blog is a must-read. The writer had this to say on the militarisation of the police force;
"The worst part of outfitting our police officers as soldiers has been psychological. Give a man access to drones, tanks, and body armor, and he'll reasonably think that his job isn't simply to maintain peace, but to eradicate danger. Instead of protecting and serving, police are searching and destroying.
If officers are soldiers, it follows that the neighborhoods they patrol are battlefields. And if they're working battlefields, it follows that the population is the enemy. And because of correlations, rooted in historical injustice, between crime and income and income and race, the enemy population will consist largely of people of color, and especially of black men. Throughout the country, police officers are capturing, imprisoning, and killing black males at a ridiculous clip, waging a very literal war on people like Michael Brown."
Change the location and who is doing what to whom...
To paraphrase Chris Rock "Shot with a gun? That must be nice"
The only way forward is a complete denouncement by the palestinians of their current leadership.
Live in a concentration camp, or fight the people who put you there?
No - renounce your destructive and suicidal leadership, give up 'the fight' aka the quest for martyrdom - and try to move forward towards a peaceful democratic co-existence - if need be under Israeli -or some other authority.
Or go on fighting a hell bent holy war aimed at eradicating Israel and all jews etc. etc. - purposefully aiming to sacrifice you and yours, and lose, completely and horribly.
These insinuations of a genocidal agenda or strategy being perpetuated by Israel are ridiculous and nutty. When the allied forces bombed Berlin during WW2, countless civilians and children died. Was that a genocidal act? No - was it terrible and disproportionate? Arguably. But it did contribute towards ending Nazi rule.
Hamas is operating under a mandate from the palestinians / civilians of gaza. Hamas just broke the ceasefire and reignited the whole clusterfuck. They want this to continue.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
staxwax said:
No - renounce your destructive and suicidal leadership, give up 'the fight' aka the quest for martyrdom - and try to move forward towards a peaceful democratic co-existence - if need be under Israeli -or some other authority.
So full surrender to Israel? That's your recommendation?
Possibly. But a complete non violent submission would without any doubt be the fastest way towards peace stability and prosperity for the civilians and children in gaza right now. And the surest way to a very strong moral position in any future negotiations. Do you think continuing a pointless and unwinnable holy war against a very unforgiving opponent is the better option? Well thats exactly whats happening.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
staxwax said:
Do you think continuing a pointless and unwinnable holy war against a very unforgiving opponent is the better option? Well thats exactly whats happening.
Israel might be killing more people and doing more damage to Palestinian infrastructure, etc.
But IMO Israel is definitely losing the war in the process.
Comments
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
Oh, and by the way, these are for better or worse my own words and my own thoughts, hence the absence of hyperlinks and long transcripts and so on. I'm not trying to claim someone else's argument as my own, nor am I afraid of being wrong on any of the above points. In fact, I'd be happy if I turned out to be wrong about all of it.
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist:
"Dubious sources feed national-security reporter Eli Lake a fraudulent story for political purposes ÔÇö once again"
http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/anatomy-of-an-al-qaeda-conference-call/
"Send It To Lake Right Away!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/-send-it-to-lake-right-away/193982/
"How Eli Lake Blundered His Daily Beast Benghazi Report"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/07/how-eli-lake-blundered-his-daily-beast-benghazi/196778
"Neoconservatives hype a new Cold War"
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/neoconservatives_hype_a_new_cold_war/
Fucking well put. I would add "infamous first person First Nation freestyle rappeur"
And also apparently: Hot Lover
It is widely belived that muslim chechen rebels (amongst many other "freedom fighters" all over the world, including Afghani and tourist Jihadis) received financial and military support from within the USA, if not directly than from the country's security services. Israel as we already know, is bankrolled by the USA.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-civil-society-and-cia-financing-of-chechen-and-other-caucasus-regional-terrorists/5333359
Does this make either Israelis', or Palestinian's positions irrelevant? Rich countries around the world will always seek to influence events around the world, and desperate people will accept help wherever it is offered. I was trying to highlight your apparent parroting of Israel's official line - I saw Mark Regev saying this almost word for word on newsnight a week or so ago - That in razing Gaza even further into the dirt, they are merely dealing with exactly the same kind of Islamic Jihadism encountered eleswhere around the world, so what's the problem? This ignores the fact that Gaza is a prison enclave under Israeli control, where Palestinians' only hope for peace is to accept the facts on the ground and resign themselves to forever living in a prison enclave.
I didn't say it was just anything, I certainly wouldn't try to lay the blame for it at the door of Israel, and your suggestion that I or anyone else in this thread who questions Israel's actions "couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered" is a hysterical strawman attack.
The kurds, a people who were being hailed as heroes for retaking areas captured by Isis on the news tonight, were slaughtered in their thousands (that's what genocide actually is) by Saddam Hussain , who had full support from the USA thoughout that time. Saddam portrayed the Kurds as terrorists. History and wikipedia seem to have portrayed them as freedom fighters with control of their own autonomous region, but of course the PKK still are regarded as a terrorist organisation, despite Ocalan's repeated calls for dialogue and an end to conflict. Maybe if they could carve out a genuinely autonomous region, the Palestinians would be regarded as oppressed people who fought for freedom
Threads like this...
http://www.soulstrut.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/4099/P0/
That kinda bullshit is what got us the world we are in today. And they don't care. The worse it gets, the better it is for them to continue that crap.
+1. See also men, women and kids being being buried alive or torn apart between cars for refusing to convert or for being the wrong sort of Muslim.
Tangentially, whilst I have no intention of seeking out the latest bit of ISIS snuff-porn, I am assured from some of the people who've watched it that the guy who decapitated James Foley had a British accent. We're going to have to suck it up when people like him finally return to the UK, whether ISIS is defeated or not. What's needed is for someone in politics to stand up and spell it out: the current situation in Iraq is not us choosing a fight, it is a fight that has picked us, and we have no alternative but to win it. These people are fascists, straight up, and appeasing them will not work. They want to die, and they want to take as many of us with them as they can - in case this hasn't been obvious since, oh, I dunno...September 11th 2001.
In terms of the British Muslim community...well, we've either alienated or failed to integrate huge swathes of them and now jihad is many young Muslims' equivalent of punk or football hooliganism ÔÇô their fuck you to the establishment ÔÇô except it is lavishly financed, heavily armed and sanctions murder. No idea how you address that without solutions most would consider authoritarian and that would give liberals like me conniptions.
There'll be another atrocity in London eventually. Perhap that will concentrate minds.
Rightgeous indignation has moved elsewhere.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
+1
Well said, Harvey.
*maybe* you'd be taken seriously on this topic if you directed this admonition at both parties to this conflict.
again, still a big *maybe* considering your past pronouncements on related topics.
though I admire your restraint in not (yet?) injecting international Jewish banking conspiracies into the debate.
(on 2nd thought maybe you already have, and I'm merely giving your "all the money in the world" remark a misplaced benefit of the doubt?)
can't think of a coherent humanitarian argument for destroying Hamas?
you lack imagination.
seriously
you are a fucking fascist pig moron with head buried deep in bloody sand
how's the view asshole?
Taken seriously?
Your voice has shithole Satanic money fuck behind it.
My voice merely has bass aka soil to it.
You lose. Even if you have no idea.
P.S. I don't hate you, but you really need to stop...homie.
This is not a black and white cut and dry situation where israel should just 'quit targeting civilians backed by all the money in the world.'
First of all - the ceasefire that existed has effectively ended again after hamas -bankrolled by their vile, fascist, and terrorist backers - continued firing rockets - at Israeli civilians. so once again they have initiated armed conflict in order to assume the victims role.
what else could they possibly have hoped to gain if not a continued conflict with no end in sight to the suffering (martyring) of their own people? Secondly - Hamas is a Palestinian organization, elected and supported by and consisting of palestinians - thirdly hamas operates purposefully from within civilian enclosures to ensure maximum PR damage when Israel inevitably retaliates - so how can the line between civilians and hamas not blur? it is a strategy. And lastly hamas and their ilk most definitely see this as an islamic vs. judeo-christian conflict which is effectively a never ending conflict from their own pov - until one side is 'wiped out'. But god forbid Israel should react disproportionately - which they may have very well done - they should just endure a constant fanatical terrorist threat in their backyard because, well the occupied territories. The only way forward is a complete denouncement by the palestinians of their current leadership.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html
https://www.facebook.com/MFeiglin/posts/695450140534104
Live in a concentration camp, or fight the people who put you there?
Change the location and who is doing what to whom...
To paraphrase Chris Rock "Shot with a gun? That must be nice"
No - renounce your destructive and suicidal leadership, give up 'the fight' aka the quest for martyrdom - and try to move forward towards a peaceful democratic co-existence - if need be under Israeli -or some other authority.
Or go on fighting a hell bent holy war aimed at eradicating Israel and all jews etc. etc. - purposefully aiming to sacrifice you and yours, and lose, completely and horribly.
These insinuations of a genocidal agenda or strategy being perpetuated by Israel are ridiculous and nutty. When the allied forces bombed Berlin during WW2, countless civilians and children died. Was that a genocidal act? No - was it terrible and disproportionate? Arguably. But it did contribute towards ending Nazi rule.
Hamas is operating under a mandate from the palestinians / civilians of gaza. Hamas just broke the ceasefire and reignited the whole clusterfuck. They want this to continue.
So full surrender to Israel? That's your recommendation?
You are either an idiot or an asshole or both.
Israel might be killing more people and doing more damage to Palestinian infrastructure, etc.
But IMO Israel is definitely losing the war in the process.
On August 11th, the normally Israel-averse Foreign Press Association in Israel conceded what those closely following the war coverage already knew: That Hamas has been intimidating foreign reporters. In a harsh statement, it condemned the terrorist group for ÔÇ£the blatant, incessant, forceful and unorthodox methods employed by the Hamas authorities and their representatives against visiting international journalists in Gaza over the past month.ÔÇØ
http://bit.ly/1rI5ZnS
Some more on Hamas media manipulation:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100283063/hamas-manipulated-and-intimidated-the-media-in-gaza-why-was-that-kept-from-us/
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/08/12/hamas-lies-about-the-gaza-civilian-death-toll-and-the-media-bought-it
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2014/08/21/the-media-intifada-bad-math-ugly-truths-about-new-york-times-in-israel-hamas-war/
who cares though, right? time to put our heads in the sand until Israel starts firing again I guess.
in other news:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-steals-gazas-offshore-natural-gas-15-billion-deal-with-jordan/5399736