I don't pretend to know about water quality in the W Bank or Gaza. I do know that water shortages exist in Israel (and throughout the region) because, ya know, it's a desert.
talks: I don't see what this poster proves. Palestinians' failed leadership I guess?
roads: this poster is misleading in the extreme. the yellow lines include all the roads *inside Israel.* why would these be accessible to non-Israelis? they aren't "accessible" to Lebanese or Egyptians either. you need an Israeli license plate to drive on Israeli roads. as for those roads within the west bank: yes, the Jewish settlements often have their own roads. it's not safe for them to drive on Palestinian roads. don't take my word for it: rent a car with Israeli plates and drive to Qalqilya. report back.
deaths: again, the death toll will always be skewed because Israel has better weapons and better protection. I suppose we could ask the Israelis not to use their superior weaponry, or to die more. that way the numbers wouldn't be so skewed. dunno.
the security barrier: Israel was wracked by terror attacks for nearly 3 yrs (the 2nd Intifada). kindergartens blown up weddings blown up. buses blown up. every day. this ended with the construction of the security barrier. argue about the route of it all you want, but you won't convince me it's not effective at saving lives. it's a testament to the impartiality of Israel's judiciary that Palestinian villagers affected by the route were able to appeal to Israel's supreme court and get it changed. those weren't even Israeli citizens; those were Palis, who by Israeli law have recourse to the Supreme Court.
I won't even try to defend admin detention.
the first one, to me, is the most important one, as it gets to the root of the conflict. it's also totally wrong and misleading, unless the white parts of the "land ownership" color scheme represent the Ottoman and British Empires. It's actually laughable how misleading those are. Palestinians "owned" all the white parts in' 22 and '48? that's absurd.
there were myriad more equitable land divisions on the table; the Arabs weren't interested in any of them. why not include all the peace proposal maps that the Arabs rejected before starting their war in 1948? (oh, and you should see the map that would have resulted had they won. hint: there's no Jewish areas.) Also, you realize there's significant Arab populations in Israel? another reason those maps are such bullshit: "white" apparently means the state of Israel, but it doesn't mean "Jewish" as Israel has a ton of non-Jews (hundreds of thousands remained in Israel after the war of independence and those populations have grown a lot).
ask me how many Jews ended up in the Arab-controlled areas after that war.
Israel is a failed state,the people that run it are merciless totalitarian criminals.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
Israel is a failed state,the people that run it are merciless totalitarian criminals.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
Israel is a failed state,the people that run it are merciless totalitarian criminals.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
I'm ignoring Kala (two abusive Holocaust references is pretty much my limit), esp. from someone with such a demonstrably limited grasp on the intricacies and history of the situation ("OMG did you know there's anti-Zionist Hassidism!!!??? I just learned this!!!")....but thanks to Bon Vivant's quote I can see what I missed...and (shocker) it's not much. More bloviating from the Israel-obsessed fever swamp.
I'm ignoring Kala (two abusive Holocaust references is pretty much my limit), esp. from someone with such a demonstrably limited grasp on the intricacies and history of the situation ("OMG did you know there's anti-Zionist Hassidism!!!??? I just learned this!!!")....but thanks to Bon Vivant's quote I can see what I missed...and it's not much.
ignore the truth for you are a brainwashed sad little automaton that swallowed everything "they" told you
edit
i don't doubt that israel has a right to exist
but at this point common sense would dictate that it's not working
as for the holocaust references : none were made in jest nor denial,nor did they diminish the atrocity in any way
it was my zionist/illuminati comment that got you mad
Israel is a failed state,the people that run it are merciless totalitarian criminals.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
Israel is a failed state,the people that run it are merciless totalitarian criminals.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
I'm ignoring Kala (two abusive Holocaust references is pretty much my limit), esp. from someone with such a demonstrably limited grasp on the intricacies and history of the situation ("OMG did you know there's anti-Zionist Hassidism!!!??? I just learned this!!!")....but thanks to Bon Vivant's quote I can see what I missed...and (shocker) it's not much. More bloviating from the Israel-obsessed fever swamp.
Just like Israel's wider approach to foreign relations which all too often seems to go along the lines of "We're not listening to any of you critics because you're clearly anti- Semitic and you don't understand the history. Keep your nose out and let us get on with containing the terrorists." Keep deliberately conflating Judaism with Israel and Hamas with Palestine and we can keep this shitstorm going for years.
roads: this poster is misleading in the extreme. the yellow lines include all the roads *inside Israel.* why would these be accessible to non-Israelis? they aren't "accessible" to Lebanese or Egyptians either. you need an Israeli license plate to drive on Israeli roads. as for those roads within the west bank: yes, the Jewish settlements often have their own roads. it's not safe for them to drive on Palestinian roads. don't take my word for it: rent a car with Israeli plates and drive to Qalqilya. report back.
So Israel decides who drives where, in Israel and the West Bank & Gaza, but this is misleading.
deaths:again, the death toll will always be skewed because Israel has better weapons and better protection. I suppose we could ask the Israelis not to use their superior weaponry, or to die more. that way the numbers wouldn't be so skewed. dunno.
Wrong answer dude! The correct answer is always "Too many".
it's a testament to the impartiality of Israel's judiciary
b/w
I won't even try to defend admin detention.
LOLs.
It's actually laughable how misleading those are. Palestinians "owned" all the white parts in' 22 and '48? that's absurd.
Right, right, they didn't "own" anything, and they weren't living there, they were already waiting in their fenced-off pens.
I've never owned land or a house in my life but have still claimed "areas", for want of a better word, as my "home".
Fuck Israel. They've created Hamas and are making monsters of themselves.
So I have received a private message from somebody who shall remain anonymous. The message was basically offering some support for trying to convince Rootless that there's another side to the story, which has made me think about how my stance is perceived by Rootless.
Please Rootless, watch the vid I poasted of the soldier's testimony (this one)
and tell me it doesn't make you want to cry, as that's the effect it has on me. And it's not out of sympathy for the Palestinians. It's for that Israeli soldier. It's for others like him.
I realise this and previous rants against Israeli behaviour make me very un-popular with various members of Soulstrut.
I'm not doing it to be popular. All I can say is that I'd also have been making myself unpopular in the 1930s. If you can't see that, I'm also sorry.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
rootlesscosmo said:
tough to take a leap of faith and put your guard down with these guys in charge:
Most people would agree, I'm sure, that the two-state solution is the least worst of the possible outcomes, but it's never going to happen while Hamas are there. It's not like the destruction of Israel isn't one of their charter's stated objectives, much as those who talk about their "grievances" would like to pretend otherwise.
It's funny - if you'd asked me for my opinion around the time of the second intifada, it would have been the complete opposite of this. I've been exposed to a lot, particularly during the last few years, that's made me reconsider my position.
I don't know where this thread is going but I can say with certainty that it won't end with somebody saying "you know you have a point there, something I didn't consider before. I'm light of this argument I'm going to modify the opinion that I previously held."
I'm ignoring Kala (two abusive Holocaust references is pretty much my limit), esp. from someone with such a demonstrably limited grasp on the intricacies and history of the situation ("OMG did you know there's anti-Zionist Hassidism!!!??? I just learned this!!!")....but thanks to Bon Vivant's quote I can see what I missed...and (shocker) it's not much. More bloviating from the Israel-obsessed fever swamp.
Just like Israel's wider approach to foreign relations which all too often seems to go along the lines of "We're not listening to any of you critics because you're clearly anti- Semitic and you don't understand the history. Keep your nose out and let us get on with containing the terrorists." Keep deliberately conflating Judaism with Israel and Hamas with Palestine and we can keep this shitstorm going for years.
it's funny. I haven't accused anyone of anti-Semitism, but you and kala have each raised it preemptively.
as if proclaiming yourself not to be anti-Semitic somehow makes your remarks any more intelligent or less ridiculous.
So I have received a private message from somebody who shall remain anonymous. The message was basically offering some support for trying to convince Rootless that there's another side to the story, which has made me think about how my stance is perceived by Rootless.
Please Rootless, watch the vid I poasted of the soldier's testimony (this one)
and tell me it doesn't make you want to cry, as that's the effect it has on me. And it's not out of sympathy for the Palestinians. It's for that Israeli soldier. It's for others like him.
I realise this and previous rants against Israeli behaviour make me very un-popular with various members of Soulstrut.
I'm not doing it to be popular. All I can say is that I'd also have been making myself unpopular in the 1930s. If you can't see that, I'm also sorry.
of course I realize there's another side to this story. you can't live in Jerusalem and ignore the other side of this conflict. my posts are not meant to negate the existence of the other side of this conflict, merely to counter some of the outlandish bullshit people say about Israel.
I've seen Breaking the Silence speakers several times. they are an extreme minority; they represent 0.001% of the IDF. the other 99.999%? most of them aren't thrilled to be standing at a checkpoint in the sun for 12 hrs searching cars either. but they don't denounce the entire Israeli military as some brutal killing machine. they do their duty because they live in an embattled country and don't see any alternative. and most of them yearn for a future in which they don't have to.
This is quite an illuminating analysis of the differing perspectives between, on one hand, Labour MPs in the UK and, on the other, commentators in the Arab media.
Arab leaders understand Hamas in a way that most Western politicians don't.
I've seen Breaking the Silence speakers several times. they are an extreme minority; they represent 0.001% of the IDF. the other 99.999%? most of them aren't thrilled to be standing at a checkpoint in the sun for 12 hrs searching cars either. but they don't denounce the entire Israeli military as some brutal killing machine. they do their duty because they live in an embattled country and don't see any alternative. and most of them yearn for a future in which they don't have to.
Really?
Shin Bet also want an end to the killing, and support a 2 state solution:
Around the world those who decry civilian and innocent deaths within the muslim/palestinian populace dont really take to the streets - the internets over syria/isis, the taliban, egypt, libya, boko haram etc. etc. but when it comes to israel re: gaza theyre ready to bring the ruckus which includes attacking synagogues and jews in the street in other countries. Same people find it difficult to differentiate between israel/THEJEWS. Blatant and blind hate within arab communities in the middle east and beyond for israel and jewish peoples is one of the biggest if not the biggest obstacle in the way of peace in and around israel. And a lot of europeans secretly feel 'the jews' have it coming - theyve been making europeans feel so awkward about the holocaust for 50 years, its time someone stuck it to them.
Also since when are acceptable civilian and child casualties really a numbers game? Three innocent israeli teenagers murdered in cold blood or firing missiles at civilians is 'not enough' - idf incursions into gaza would be justified if the death toll on the israeli side was in the hundreds too by that reasoning. There is not a country or state in human history that came into existence without war civilian death and ethnic cleansing for that matter, including the usa. You want to take the moral high ground and point fingers? Do something about it or shut the fuck up. Vote thugs into power, raise your children to hate and let the chips fall where they fucking may anywhere in the world. Thats the real human reality.
I've seen Breaking the Silence speakers several times. they are an extreme minority; they represent 0.001% of the IDF. the other 99.999%? most of them aren't thrilled to be standing at a checkpoint in the sun for 12 hrs searching cars either. but they don't denounce the entire Israeli military as some brutal killing machine. they do their duty because they live in an embattled country and don't see any alternative. and most of them yearn for a future in which they don't have to.
Really?
Shin Bet also want an end to the killing, and support a 2 state solution:
so does a majority of the Israeli public; this has been the case for years, despite the bombings and the rockets.
how is the opinion of the former Shin Bet heads inconsistent with what I said, that the majority of Israelis serving in the IDF yearn for a time when they won't have to?
a lot of europeans secretly feel 'the jews' have it coming - theyve been making europeans feel so awkward about the holocaust for 50 years, its time someone stuck it to them.
What the fuck!? Seriously?
If we want to start making lazy generalisations, "a lot" of people think it is the thousands of American citizens who emigrate to Israel every year to help build and live in illegal settlements on the West Bank that are the main obstacle to peace in Israel.
a lot of europeans secretly feel 'the jews' have it coming - theyve been making europeans feel so awkward about the holocaust for 50 years, its time someone stuck it to them.
What the fuck!? Seriously?
If we want to start making lazy generalisations, "a lot" of people think it is the thousands of American citizens who emigrate to Israel every year to help build and live in illegal settlements on the West Bank that are the main obstacle to peace in Israel.
Yes, seriously. Read this and tell me it doesn't ring true:
Left-wing groups in affluent countries politically use the Palestinians - by identifying with them - to develop their own identities. This enables them to fulfill deeper wishes, such as their desire to fight an oppressor. For this they have to define targets: the Americans, the globalizers, the multi-nationals, Western capitalism and, of course, Israel.
In the past, when Israel and the Jews were seen as eternal victims, reminding the world about the evil done to them, left-wingers could easily identify with Israel. They claim to have higher ideals and moral values, wanting to change society, help minorities, assist oppressed people and bring social justice. But now, even in times of suicide bombers, it is still politically correct to identify with the Palestinian people as the accepted victim, even if this comes at the price of twisting the facts in the name of morality and emotions, even if this might lead to new persecution.
Postmodernism has become identified with a progressive political outlook. This also includes giving credit to those cultures or people who have been undervalued throughout the ages. It prevents one from accusing oppressed cultures of holding unjust views. One encounters here a double standard. It is only permitted to criticize those who are in power and not the oppressed. Such an attitude lacks intellectual integrity.
Once left-wing groups had defined Palestinians as the real victim, they became a love object in certain Western European circles. Then it is not difficult to establish a hate object: Israel. Not necessarily all members of these groups are anti-Semites. The discussions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and oppression or the liberation of the territories are politically legitimate. Many anti-Semites, however, are happy with the conflict. Now they can publicly criticize Israel and the people connected to it: the Jews. Prejudice comes first and justifying it is easy. In an uncommon coalition, the extremes on the right and left, usually fighting each other, find themselves standing on the same side against the Jews.
Outbursts with anti-Semitic undertones are also connected to Europe's guilt vis-a-vis the Holocaust. If the guilty person is bad, the Jewish victim becomes good. The moment it can be shown the latter is bad too, the 'other' - that is, the European - is relieved of his guilt feelings. To claim that Israelis behave like Nazis reduces the sin of the grandparents. Then the children of the victims can no longer be the accusers. This equalizes everybody.
Some Europeans thus have to claim that Jews are capable of doing what was done to them. The Portuguese author Jose Saramago, who paralleled Ramallah and Auschwitz, did precisely this. When one calls everything Auschwitz, you deny the Holocaust. As everything becomes terrible, there is no absolute evil anymore. This is a great relief for the heirs of guilt.
btw I dont support violence or military actions causing civilian death at all. Its just so obvious what the subtext is in a lot of anti israeli rethoric on social media and in general.
Around the world those who decry civilian and innocent deaths within the muslim/palestinian populace dont really take to the streets - the internets over syria/isis, the taliban, egypt, libya, boko haram etc. etc. but when it comes to israel re: gaza theyre ready to bring the ruckus which includes attacking synagogues and jews in the street in other countries. Same people find it difficult to differentiate between israel/THEJEWS. Blatant and blind hate within arab communities in the middle east and beyond for israel and jewish peoples is one of the biggest if not the biggest obstacle in the way of peace in and around israel. And a lot of europeans secretly feel 'the jews' have it coming - theyve been making europeans feel so awkward about the holocaust for 50 years, its time someone stuck it to them.
Also since when are acceptable civilian and child casualties really a numbers game? Three innocent israeli teenagers murdered in cold blood or firing missiles at civilians is 'not enough' - idf incursions into gaza would be justified if the death toll on the israeli side was in the hundreds too by that reasoning. There is not a country or state in human history that came into existence without war civilian death and ethnic cleansing for that matter, including the usa. You want to take the moral high ground and point fingers? Do something about it or shut the fuck up. Vote thugs into power, raise your children to hate and let the chips fall where they fucking may anywhere in the world. Thats the real human reality.
Dude, the bile has interfered with your grammar. Some of your sentences make no sense, although I get the overall intention.
There's shit going on around the world all the time. The Palestine situation has been steadily getting worse since '67. It's an apartheid state, and the Palestinians live under military occupation. Of course people are going to protest against this.
The only person using the term "acceptable civilian and child casualties" is you. It's never acceptable. Highlighting the numbers was for those who seem to think this is poor widdl Israel defending itself. It's the apologists, incidentally, who use death numbers to ask how many Israel has to suffer before it's allowed to indiscriminately hit back. Collective punishment instead of trying to find those responsible, and maybe, you know, arrest them.
Nice that you feel I shouldn't be allowed to talk about any of this though.
When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.
But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.
BuzzFeed reporter Sheera Frenkel was among the first to suggest that it was unlikely that Hamas was behind the deaths of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach. Citing Palestinian sources and experts in the field, Frenkel reported that kidnapping three Israeli teens would be a foolish move for Hamas. International experts told her it was likely the work of a local group, acting without concern for the repercussions:
[Gershon Baskin] pointed out that Hamas has earlier this month signed an agreement to form a unity government with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, bridging, for the first time in seven years, the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank and Gaza.
ÔÇ£They will lose their reconciliation agreement with Abbas if they do take responsibility for [the kidnappings],ÔÇØ Baskin added.
After Israel's top leadership exhaustively blamed Hamas for kidnap of 3 teens, they've now admitted killers were acting as "lone cell."
4:40 PM - 25 Jul 2014
Order of events: 3 teens kidnapped->100s of Palestns in WB arrested->revenge attacks on Palestinians->violence along Gaza/Israel border->war
Repeated inconsistencies in Israeli descriptions of the situation have sparked debate over whether Israel wanted to provoke Hamas into a confrontation. Israeli intelligence is also said to have known that the boys were dead shortly after they disappeared, but to have maintained public optimism about their safe return to beef up support from the Jewish diaspora. Writing for Al Jazeera, Musa al-Gharbi argued that Israel was deliberately provoking Hamas:
All the illegal and immoral actions related to Operation BrotherÔÇÖs Keeper were justified under the premise of finding and saving the missing teens whom the Israeli government knew to be dead ÔÇö cynically exploiting the tragedy to whip up public outcry in order to provoke and then confront Hamas. This pattern of deception continues under the ongoing military offensive in Gaza. For example, last week in collaboration with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi and Abbas, in its efforts to alienate Hamas, Israel announced a bad-faith cease-fire proposal, which Hamas was not consulted on and never agreed to but whose violation supposedly justified IsraelÔÇÖs expansion and intensification of the military campaign into Gaza.
Despite continued negotiations, the violence shows no signs of letting up, and after Thursday night's massive protests in the West Bank, there is still no ceasefire agreement. On Friday, it became clear that U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's attempts to broker a seven-day truce were rejected by Israeli officials. Instead, Israel will apparently widen its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, despite international outcry about the civilian death toll. According to unnamed officials, the proposed truce was too generous to Hamas's demands.
Hamas, meanwhile, still hasn't weighed in on the agreement, whose details are being kept secret, but continued to launch rockets into Israel. International peace talks are set to resume in France this weekend, and we're keeping our fingers crossed.
Updated, Sat. 11:44 a.m.: This claim was also reported by BBC's Jon Donnison, who spoked to Israel Police Foreign Press Spokesman Micky Rosenfeld:
Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership1/2
1:28 PM - 25 Jul 2014
Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government. 2/2
1:29 PM - 25 Jul 2014
Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld also said if kidnapping had been ordered by Hamas leadership, they'd have known about it in advance.
5:56 PM - 25 Jul 2014
Mickey Rosenfeld said lone cells much harder to track. Said they would find whoever was now protecting the two suspects.
5:57 PM - 25 Jul 2014
Yes, seriously. Read this and tell me it doesn't ring true:
Left-wing groups in affluent countries politically use the Palestinians - by identifying with them - to develop their own identities. This enables them to fulfill deeper wishes, such as their desire to fight an oppressor. For this they have to define targets: the Americans, the globalizers, the multi-nationals, Western capitalism and, of course, Israel.
In the past, when Israel and the Jews were seen as eternal victims, reminding the world about the evil done to them, left-wingers could easily identify with Israel. They claim to have higher ideals and moral values, wanting to change society, help minorities, assist oppressed people and bring social justice. But now, even in times of suicide bombers, it is still politically correct to identify with the Palestinian people as the accepted victim, even if this comes at the price of twisting the facts in the name of morality and emotions, even if this might lead to new persecution.
Postmodernism has become identified with a progressive political outlook. This also includes giving credit to those cultures or people who have been undervalued throughout the ages. It prevents one from accusing oppressed cultures of holding unjust views. One encounters here a double standard. It is only permitted to criticize those who are in power and not the oppressed. Such an attitude lacks intellectual integrity.
Once left-wing groups had defined Palestinians as the real victim, they became a love object in certain Western European circles. Then it is not difficult to establish a hate object: Israel. Not necessarily all members of these groups are anti-Semites. The discussions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and oppression or the liberation of the territories are politically legitimate. Many anti-Semites, however, are happy with the conflict. Now they can publicly criticize Israel and the people connected to it: the Jews. Prejudice comes first and justifying it is easy. In an uncommon coalition, the extremes on the right and left, usually fighting each other, find themselves standing on the same side against the Jews.
Outbursts with anti-Semitic undertones are also connected to Europe's guilt vis-a-vis the Holocaust. If the guilty person is bad, the Jewish victim becomes good. The moment it can be shown the latter is bad too, the 'other' - that is, the European - is relieved of his guilt feelings. To claim that Israelis behave like Nazis reduces the sin of the grandparents. Then the children of the victims can no longer be the accusers. This equalizes everybody.
Some Europeans thus have to claim that Jews are capable of doing what was done to them. The Portuguese author Jose Saramago, who paralleled Ramallah and Auschwitz, did precisely this. When one calls everything Auschwitz, you deny the Holocaust. As everything becomes terrible, there is no absolute evil anymore. This is a great relief for the heirs of guilt.
btw I dont support violence or military actions causing civilian death at all. Its just so obvious what the subtext is in a lot of anti israeli rethoric on social media and in general.
Quite apart from anything else, there was no sin of my grandparents against Jews, the only guilt I feel is a collective shame that it could've happened at all, the same shame that makes me want to speak against what is happening now. But I should shut the fuck up or turn to violence. Gotcha.
Duderonomy i never adressed you personally - i take it you identified with my bit about taking the moral high ground and pointing fingers.
I should shut the fuck up or turn to violence. Gotcha.
'Do something about it' does not imply turning to violence. although my advice to stfu was admittedly ill tempered and definitely triggered by dissatisfaction with the quality of online dialogue regarding the israel-palestine debacle.
Duderonomy i never adressed you personally - i take it you identified with my bit about taking the moral high ground and pointing fingers.
I should shut the fuck up or turn to violence. Gotcha.
'Do something about it' does not imply turning to violence. although my advice to stfu was admittedly ill tempered and definitely triggered by dissatisfaction with the quality of online dialogue regarding the israel-palestine debacle.
Voting thugs into power suggests people who will follow a policy of violence. Raising hate-filled children isn't particularly constructive either.
Article below has hyperlinks to sources if you go to the HuffPo site;
You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".
Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.
Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.
This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."
So, in a Moynihanian spirit, here are fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to the 11 main myths, half-truths and self-serving 'talking points' that are repeatedly pushed by various Israeli spokespersons, both on the airwaves and on social media:
1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel
Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."
2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't
Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."
The Guardian: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."
4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel
Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes." Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."
5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'
Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."
6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."
7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel
Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."
8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers
Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."
9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip
US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."
10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution
Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"
11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict
Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."
And here's a brilliant example of the way events can be twisted to represent a scenario of choice.
Now you can watch this video, and follow the narrator's take on the pictures. Evidence of Hamas using civilians as human shields.
What I see is a video that shows that civilians have tried protecting their homes from bombing by standing on the roofs. Hamas have encouraged this as they say it has worked - ie, it has put Israeli fighter jets off bombing a house with civilians on it.
In the video you had a scene of a bombed house. The narrator tries saying that civilians have flooded there to act as human shields. It looked like a video of people trying to save lives to me - they were trying to dig people out of the rubble, but if this gets in the way of the Israeli military killing people, then they're human shields. Bollocks.
Was that Chinese bloke in Tianamen square a human shield for terrorists, or a guy trying to appeal to the good nature of the tank driver by placing himself in it's path? He was trying to stop a massacre. So are the Palestinian civilians from what that video tells me.
In the long term, I shudder to think about the souls of people who lost two, three, or 18 family members to Israeli bombs. The sobbing father who begged his child to wake up because he had brought new toys; the woman who told her sister in England to stay away and live, so that at least one of the family members would survive. I see what national trauma has done to the Jewish people more than 60 years following their darkest moments. The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible.
regardless of where you stand on the conflict, believing it to be in the long-term interests of Israel requires a fairly significant amount of hubris.
Comments
I don't pretend to know about water quality in the W Bank or Gaza. I do know that water shortages exist in Israel (and throughout the region) because, ya know, it's a desert.
talks: I don't see what this poster proves. Palestinians' failed leadership I guess?
roads: this poster is misleading in the extreme. the yellow lines include all the roads *inside Israel.* why would these be accessible to non-Israelis? they aren't "accessible" to Lebanese or Egyptians either. you need an Israeli license plate to drive on Israeli roads. as for those roads within the west bank: yes, the Jewish settlements often have their own roads. it's not safe for them to drive on Palestinian roads. don't take my word for it: rent a car with Israeli plates and drive to Qalqilya. report back.
deaths: again, the death toll will always be skewed because Israel has better weapons and better protection. I suppose we could ask the Israelis not to use their superior weaponry, or to die more. that way the numbers wouldn't be so skewed. dunno.
the security barrier: Israel was wracked by terror attacks for nearly 3 yrs (the 2nd Intifada). kindergartens blown up weddings blown up. buses blown up. every day. this ended with the construction of the security barrier. argue about the route of it all you want, but you won't convince me it's not effective at saving lives. it's a testament to the impartiality of Israel's judiciary that Palestinian villagers affected by the route were able to appeal to Israel's supreme court and get it changed. those weren't even Israeli citizens; those were Palis, who by Israeli law have recourse to the Supreme Court.
I won't even try to defend admin detention.
the first one, to me, is the most important one, as it gets to the root of the conflict. it's also totally wrong and misleading, unless the white parts of the "land ownership" color scheme represent the Ottoman and British Empires. It's actually laughable how misleading those are. Palestinians "owned" all the white parts in' 22 and '48? that's absurd.
there were myriad more equitable land divisions on the table; the Arabs weren't interested in any of them. why not include all the peace proposal maps that the Arabs rejected before starting their war in 1948? (oh, and you should see the map that would have resulted had they won. hint: there's no Jewish areas.) Also, you realize there's significant Arab populations in Israel? another reason those maps are such bullshit: "white" apparently means the state of Israel, but it doesn't mean "Jewish" as Israel has a ton of non-Jews (hundreds of thousands remained in Israel after the war of independence and those populations have grown a lot).
ask me how many Jews ended up in the Arab-controlled areas after that war.
hey cosmo if you are such a fanboy why don't you move over there and join the army and help with the ethnic cleansing?
Don't see you fighting in Gaza with Hamas.
as a US citizen i would be deemed a "terrorist"
but the inverse is quite legal
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/israeli-military-americans/
ignore the truth for you are a brainwashed sad little automaton that swallowed everything "they" told you
edit
i don't doubt that israel has a right to exist
but at this point common sense would dictate that it's not working
as for the holocaust references : none were made in jest nor denial,nor did they diminish the atrocity in any way
it was my zionist/illuminati comment that got you mad
So, you want someone else to do something that you aren't willing to do yourself?
That's lame.
Also, that guy has dual citizenship, so it's likely not the same as RC joining IDF.
Cosmo is Jewish though so he could have a vested interest in doing that. Bon Vivant isn't Palestinian.
Just like Israel's wider approach to foreign relations which all too often seems to go along the lines of "We're not listening to any of you critics because you're clearly anti- Semitic and you don't understand the history. Keep your nose out and let us get on with containing the terrorists." Keep deliberately conflating Judaism with Israel and Hamas with Palestine and we can keep this shitstorm going for years.
So Israel decides who drives where, in Israel and the West Bank & Gaza, but this is misleading.
Wrong answer dude! The correct answer is always "Too many".
b/w
LOLs.
Right, right, they didn't "own" anything, and they weren't living there, they were already waiting in their fenced-off pens.
I've never owned land or a house in my life but have still claimed "areas", for want of a better word, as my "home".
Fuck Israel. They've created Hamas and are making monsters of themselves.
Argue with this guy if you think otherwise
Please Rootless, watch the vid I poasted of the soldier's testimony (this one)
and tell me it doesn't make you want to cry, as that's the effect it has on me. And it's not out of sympathy for the Palestinians. It's for that Israeli soldier. It's for others like him.
I realise this and previous rants against Israeli behaviour make me very un-popular with various members of Soulstrut.
I'm not doing it to be popular. All I can say is that I'd also have been making myself unpopular in the 1930s. If you can't see that, I'm also sorry.
Most people would agree, I'm sure, that the two-state solution is the least worst of the possible outcomes, but it's never going to happen while Hamas are there. It's not like the destruction of Israel isn't one of their charter's stated objectives, much as those who talk about their "grievances" would like to pretend otherwise.
It's funny - if you'd asked me for my opinion around the time of the second intifada, it would have been the complete opposite of this. I've been exposed to a lot, particularly during the last few years, that's made me reconsider my position.
Hamas (in violation of the ceasefire) fire rockets.
The demonstration is forced to disperse.
Pretty good metaphor for the state of the Israeli left. Hamas sure doesn't help their cause.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Thousands-gather-in-Tel-Aviv-to-protest-19-day-offensive-in-Gaza-369002
it's funny. I haven't accused anyone of anti-Semitism, but you and kala have each raised it preemptively.
as if proclaiming yourself not to be anti-Semitic somehow makes your remarks any more intelligent or less ridiculous.
of course I realize there's another side to this story. you can't live in Jerusalem and ignore the other side of this conflict. my posts are not meant to negate the existence of the other side of this conflict, merely to counter some of the outlandish bullshit people say about Israel.
I've seen Breaking the Silence speakers several times. they are an extreme minority; they represent 0.001% of the IDF. the other 99.999%? most of them aren't thrilled to be standing at a checkpoint in the sun for 12 hrs searching cars either. but they don't denounce the entire Israeli military as some brutal killing machine. they do their duty because they live in an embattled country and don't see any alternative. and most of them yearn for a future in which they don't have to.
Arab leaders understand Hamas in a way that most Western politicians don't.
So does this guy:
Really?
Shin Bet also want an end to the killing, and support a 2 state solution:
Also since when are acceptable civilian and child casualties really a numbers game? Three innocent israeli teenagers murdered in cold blood or firing missiles at civilians is 'not enough' - idf incursions into gaza would be justified if the death toll on the israeli side was in the hundreds too by that reasoning. There is not a country or state in human history that came into existence without war civilian death and ethnic cleansing for that matter, including the usa. You want to take the moral high ground and point fingers? Do something about it or shut the fuck up. Vote thugs into power, raise your children to hate and let the chips fall where they fucking may anywhere in the world. Thats the real human reality.
so does a majority of the Israeli public; this has been the case for years, despite the bombings and the rockets.
how is the opinion of the former Shin Bet heads inconsistent with what I said, that the majority of Israelis serving in the IDF yearn for a time when they won't have to?
What the fuck!? Seriously?
If we want to start making lazy generalisations, "a lot" of people think it is the thousands of American citizens who emigrate to Israel every year to help build and live in illegal settlements on the West Bank that are the main obstacle to peace in Israel.
Yes, seriously. Read this and tell me it doesn't ring true:
btw I dont support violence or military actions causing civilian death at all. Its just so obvious what the subtext is in a lot of anti israeli rethoric on social media and in general.
Dude, the bile has interfered with your grammar. Some of your sentences make no sense, although I get the overall intention.
There's shit going on around the world all the time. The Palestine situation has been steadily getting worse since '67. It's an apartheid state, and the Palestinians live under military occupation. Of course people are going to protest against this.
The only person using the term "acceptable civilian and child casualties" is you. It's never acceptable. Highlighting the numbers was for those who seem to think this is poor widdl Israel defending itself. It's the apologists, incidentally, who use death numbers to ask how many Israel has to suffer before it's allowed to indiscriminately hit back. Collective punishment instead of trying to find those responsible, and maybe, you know, arrest them.
Nice that you feel I shouldn't be allowed to talk about any of this though.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
What a load of bullshit. Who the fuck wrote that? I'm guessing the same guys who wrote the how-to-brainwash-Americans handbook
http://www.stopdebezetting.com/documents/pdf/090713Hasbara handboek_tip_report.pdf
Quite apart from anything else, there was no sin of my grandparents against Jews, the only guilt I feel is a collective shame that it could've happened at all, the same shame that makes me want to speak against what is happening now. But I should shut the fuck up or turn to violence. Gotcha.
'Do something about it' does not imply turning to violence. although my advice to stfu was admittedly ill tempered and definitely triggered by dissatisfaction with the quality of online dialogue regarding the israel-palestine debacle.
Voting thugs into power suggests people who will follow a policy of violence. Raising hate-filled children isn't particularly constructive either.
Article below has hyperlinks to sources if you go to the HuffPo site;
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html
Now you can watch this video, and follow the narrator's take on the pictures. Evidence of Hamas using civilians as human shields.
What I see is a video that shows that civilians have tried protecting their homes from bombing by standing on the roofs. Hamas have encouraged this as they say it has worked - ie, it has put Israeli fighter jets off bombing a house with civilians on it.
In the video you had a scene of a bombed house. The narrator tries saying that civilians have flooded there to act as human shields. It looked like a video of people trying to save lives to me - they were trying to dig people out of the rubble, but if this gets in the way of the Israeli military killing people, then they're human shields. Bollocks.
Was that Chinese bloke in Tianamen square a human shield for terrorists, or a guy trying to appeal to the good nature of the tank driver by placing himself in it's path? He was trying to stop a massacre. So are the Palestinian civilians from what that video tells me.
http://972mag.com/how-can-you-possibly-oppose-this-war/93924/
regardless of where you stand on the conflict, believing it to be in the long-term interests of Israel requires a fairly significant amount of hubris.