RE: various suggestions to read the Hamas charter...
From wiki:
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006
RE: various suggestions to read the Hamas charter...
From wiki:
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006
so now you're explaining away Hamas's ideology.
you really wanna go down this path?
you can denounce Israel/stick up for the Gazan civilians all you want.
but you *sure* you want to start making excuses for Hamas' charter?
In the long term, I shudder to think about the souls of people who lost two, three, or 18 family members to Israeli bombs. The sobbing father who begged his child to wake up because he had brought new toys; the woman who told her sister in England to stay away and live, so that at least one of the family members would survive. I see what national trauma has done to the Jewish people more than 60 years following their darkest moments. The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible.
regardless of where you stand on the conflict, believing it to be in the long-term interests of Israel requires a fairly significant amount of hubris.
"ItÔÇÖs easy to criticize the Israeli governmentÔÇÖs response to the rockets launched from Gaza in recent weeks. ItÔÇÖs harder to offer an alternative. But honest critics have an obligation to try." - Peter Beinart
RE: various suggestions to read the Hamas charter...
From wiki:
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006
so now you're explaining away Hamas's ideology.
you really wanna go down this path?
you can denounce Israel/stick up for the Gazan civilians all you want.
but you *sure* you want to start making excuses for Hamas' charter?
really?
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
a lot of europeans secretly feel 'the jews' have it coming - theyve been making europeans feel so awkward about the holocaust for 50 years, its time someone stuck it to them.
What the fuck!? Seriously?
If we want to start making lazy generalisations, "a lot" of people think it is the thousands of American citizens who emigrate to Israel every year to help build and live in illegal settlements on the West Bank that are the main obstacle to peace in Israel.
staxwax said:
Blatant and blind hate within arab communities in the middle east and beyond for israel and jewish peoples is one of the biggest if not the biggest obstacle in the way of peace in and around israel.
No.
Approximately 450 million Arabs worldwide
Approximately 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide
Stop drinking the kool-aid.
Let's not make ceasefire the catchphrase of the day to bounce around at each other if we do not really understand or admit what the terms are on the ground.
Be very clear - this is not a war. It is the genocide of Palestinians. It is not that complicated. People can come up with all the excuses, justifications and rehearsed rebuttals they want, but the Palestinian bodycount, the blockades, the settlements, the military might, the billions in financial backing, the media bias and the impunity Israel claims and enjoys do not make this anything other than one side perpetrating mass murder while another does its best to resist.
Five pages of pick and choose politicking will not change any of this.
RE: various suggestions to read the Hamas charter...
From wiki:
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006
so now you're explaining away Hamas's ideology.
you really wanna go down this path?
you can denounce Israel/stick up for the Gazan civilians all you want.
but you *sure* you want to start making excuses for Hamas' charter?
really?
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
the pronouncements of some dude from the Carter Center notwithstanding, there's really no evidence that they've moderated. They still hate gays, wrap up women, intimidate journalists, throw political opponents from rooftops, and openly seek to replace Israel with an Islamic state. I'm happy to provide as many examples of this shit as you request.
(I know you're new to this Palestinian advocacy stuff, but here's a hint: no one really tries to defend Hamas' racist, supremacist ideology. Better to focus on Israeli brutality and Gazan civilian suffering, and to pretend that what Hamas says and does doesn't actually matter.)
and yet they insist on costly ground operations rather than simply bombing the Gaza strip to smithereens.
and they continue to allow humanitarian aid in.
and they continue to treat Palestinians in their hospitals.
and the Palestinian population continues to grow, with those living in Israel enjoying one of the highest standards of living/education in the Arab world.
if this is supposed to be genocide, they're certainly doing it wrong,
the pronouncements of some dude from the Carter Center notwithstanding, there's really no evidence that they've moderated. They still hate gays, wrap up women, intimidate journalists, throw political opponents from rooftops, and openly seek to replace Israel with an Islamic state. I'm happy to provide as many examples of this shit as you request.
(I know you're new to this Palestinian advocacy stuff, but here's a hint: no one really tries to defend Hamas' racist, supremacist ideology. Better to focus on Israeli brutality and Gazan civilian suffering.)
Well, the first 4 examples could apply to numerous countries that aren't labelled terrorists. I'm not even sure they hold the monopoly on the last one either. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and make them moderate? The IRA went from firing rockets, bombs, kidnapping, and assassinations, slaughtering many innocents in the process, to having peace talks and implementing a ceasefire. Things aren't perfect in NI, but they're a lot better than they have been.
and yet they insist on costly ground operations rather than simply bombing the Gaza strip to smithereens.
and they continue to allow humanitarian aid in.
and they continue to treat Palestinians in their hospitals.
and the Palestinian population continues to grow, with those living in Israel enjoying one of the highest standards of living/education in the Arab world.
if this is supposed to be genocide, they're certainly doing it wrong,
and yet they insist on costly ground operations rather than simply bombing the Gaza strip to smithereens.
and they continue to allow humanitarian aid in.
and they continue to treat Palestinians in their hospitals.
and the Palestinian population continues to grow, with those living in Israel enjoying one of the highest standards of living/education in the Arab world.
if this is supposed to be genocide, they're certainly doing it wrong,
No, they are just doing it slowly.
slowly as in...in reverse?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Duderonomy said:
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran? Have read differing opinions on whether that's still happening.
If Hamas is the elected party, Israel has to try and make them moderate. This violence only fuels rabid support for them. The admission that they knew Hamas weren't responsible for the deaths of the 3 teenagers calls into question whether Israel wants peace. Netenyahu's statement today that they won't stop until mission accomplished isn't particularly good news on that front.
In the long term, I shudder to think about the souls of people who lost two, three, or 18 family members to Israeli bombs. The sobbing father who begged his child to wake up because he had brought new toys; the woman who told her sister in England to stay away and live, so that at least one of the family members would survive. I see what national trauma has done to the Jewish people more than 60 years following their darkest moments. The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible.
regardless of where you stand on the conflict, believing it to be in the long-term interests of Israel requires a fairly significant amount of hubris.
"ItÔÇÖs easy to criticize the Israeli governmentÔÇÖs response to the rockets launched from Gaza in recent weeks. ItÔÇÖs harder to offer an alternative. But honest critics have an obligation to try." - Peter Beinart
that assumes that Israel's default posture is "kill babies". "well, in absence of a better solution, we have to do this..." I don't agree. Israel has known for a long time that it can defend itself adequately against all military threats from suicide bombing to national armies. The "no nation would tolerate this" logic ignores the very real responsibilities that Israel has in both creating and stoking the conflict. Israel and its supporters seem to believe they have none. I think that position is not in Israel's own best interest.
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran? Have read differing opinions on whether that's still happening.
If Hamas is the elected party, Israel has to try and make them moderate. This violence only fuels rabid support for them. The admission that they knew Hamas weren't responsible for the deaths of the 3 teenagers calls into question whether Israel wants peace. Netenyahu's statement today that they won't stop until mission accomplished isn't particularly good news on that front.
The destruction of the tunnels leading into Israeli civilian communities is good news for everyone except Hamas.
Wouldn't it make more sense to try and make them moderate?
Yes.
Engagement is an effective path to moderation and mutual understanding.
Extremists in both countries will respond violently.
In the past both countries have given in to extremists.
The current fighting is tragic.
I hope it ends soon.
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
Not sure what you mean by saying Israel has to try to make Hamas "moderate." Look, I totally condemn Israel's missile attacks and ground incursions and the scores of civilian deaths that have resulted, but I can't believe that you and others actually believe that Hamas are only acting in "defense' of their people. Their strategy has always been, and will continue to be, to lure Israel into killing their own people by launching rockets from civilian infrastructure such as schools, houses and hospitals. That's undisputed. Their goal is to win the public relations war at the expense of their people. And I guess you can throw any sense of moderation out the window when they continue to disregard efforts for ceasefires.
I understand the humanitarian crisis and state of apartheid that the Palestinian people continue to live under, but you're not going to address that by persisting in calling for the death of the Israel state. That's not moderation.
Israel is deliberately committing calculated and slow genocide - theres no blatant hatred for jews within arabic communities around the world and hamas is just an understandable by-product of palestinian victimization by the murderous israelis. Good luck with protesting sunni versus shia massacres and taliban bombings in peshawar as im sure youre vehemently and indignantly protesting those as well, as your fair and balanced and bile free obsession with the israeli-palestinian conflict is completely balanced. Because after all, lets be honest, Israel really shouldnt exist, should it? The middle east will be completely fine once it is wiped of the earth, as the amazing human rights and fair governance track record of the region suggests. Thank you and goodnight!
So Northern Ireland was a different kettle of fish, but one of the things that killed support for extremism was prosperity. When the Catholics were being treated like shit by the Brits and the Protestant Northern Irish, the IRA had strong support. In the nineties peace lasted long enough for foreign business to risk investment, and life got a little bit more comfortable. Sure, it wasn't the only thing that changed things, but it definitely helped.
The other thing of course was America going from a backer of the IRA to forcing them into talks. Interestingly they are in a similar position now but don't seem to want to lean on Israel.
Their strategy has always been, and will continue to be, to lure Israel into killing their own people by launching rockets from civilian infrastructure such as schools, houses and hospitals. That's undisputed. Their goal is to win the public relations war at the expense of their people. And I guess you can throw any sense of moderation out the window when they continue to disregard efforts for ceasefires.
How did this recent shit start? Israeli teenagers killed. Israel apparently knew it wasn't Hamas, but raided 200 homes, a kid was set on fire... who's goading who? Both sides are equally culpable. One is a democracy, the other under military occupation. This is where the criticism lies.
Their strategy has always been, and will continue to be, to lure Israel into killing their own people by launching rockets from civilian infrastructure such as schools, houses and hospitals. That's undisputed. Their goal is to win the public relations war at the expense of their people. And I guess you can throw any sense of moderation out the window when they continue to disregard efforts for ceasefires.
How did this recent shit start? Israeli teenagers killed. Israel apparently knew it wasn't Hamas, but raided 200 homes, a kid was set on fire... who's goading who? Both sides are equally culpable. One is a democracy, the other under military occupation. This is where the criticism lies.
also, as you posted above, they re-arrested a number of Hamas members who were just released in a prisoner swap
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
pretty sure he was referring to Qatar.
World Cup Qatar? Fuck, this ought to be fun...
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
bassie said:
Duderonomy said:
DocMcCoy said:
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
Qatar, on the other hand...
The hand that's left?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Duderonomy said:
DocMcCoy said:
bassie said:
Duderonomy said:
DocMcCoy said:
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran?
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
Comments
From wiki:
so now you're explaining away Hamas's ideology.
you really wanna go down this path?
you can denounce Israel/stick up for the Gazan civilians all you want.
but you *sure* you want to start making excuses for Hamas' charter?
really?
"ItÔÇÖs easy to criticize the Israeli governmentÔÇÖs response to the rockets launched from Gaza in recent weeks. ItÔÇÖs harder to offer an alternative. But honest critics have an obligation to try." - Peter Beinart
It suggests that once they became a legitimate political party they dropped some of their extremism... probably because they were aware of how it looked to the rest of the world. Of course if they're never given the chance to become moderate, they won't.
No.
Approximately 450 million Arabs worldwide
Approximately 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide
Stop drinking the kool-aid.
Let's not make ceasefire the catchphrase of the day to bounce around at each other if we do not really understand or admit what the terms are on the ground.
Be very clear - this is not a war. It is the genocide of Palestinians. It is not that complicated. People can come up with all the excuses, justifications and rehearsed rebuttals they want, but the Palestinian bodycount, the blockades, the settlements, the military might, the billions in financial backing, the media bias and the impunity Israel claims and enjoys do not make this anything other than one side perpetrating mass murder while another does its best to resist.
Five pages of pick and choose politicking will not change any of this.
the pronouncements of some dude from the Carter Center notwithstanding, there's really no evidence that they've moderated. They still hate gays, wrap up women, intimidate journalists, throw political opponents from rooftops, and openly seek to replace Israel with an Islamic state. I'm happy to provide as many examples of this shit as you request.
(I know you're new to this Palestinian advocacy stuff, but here's a hint: no one really tries to defend Hamas' racist, supremacist ideology. Better to focus on Israeli brutality and Gazan civilian suffering, and to pretend that what Hamas says and does doesn't actually matter.)
and yet they insist on costly ground operations rather than simply bombing the Gaza strip to smithereens.
and they continue to allow humanitarian aid in.
and they continue to treat Palestinians in their hospitals.
and the Palestinian population continues to grow, with those living in Israel enjoying one of the highest standards of living/education in the Arab world.
if this is supposed to be genocide, they're certainly doing it wrong,
Well, the first 4 examples could apply to numerous countries that aren't labelled terrorists. I'm not even sure they hold the monopoly on the last one either. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and make them moderate? The IRA went from firing rockets, bombs, kidnapping, and assassinations, slaughtering many innocents in the process, to having peace talks and implementing a ceasefire. Things aren't perfect in NI, but they're a lot better than they have been.
No, they are just doing it slowly.
What heroes!
I'll leave the rest to you all to hammer out.
slowly as in...in reverse?
The fact that Hamas is bankrolled by a country that some believe has the long-term objective of propagating Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond - something that represents a serious threat to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, imho, as evidenced by the recent jihadi tourism in Syria - suggests at least the possibility that it may not be Israel hindering any attempts at becoming moderate.
Iran? Have read differing opinions on whether that's still happening.
If Hamas is the elected party, Israel has to try and make them moderate. This violence only fuels rabid support for them. The admission that they knew Hamas weren't responsible for the deaths of the 3 teenagers calls into question whether Israel wants peace. Netenyahu's statement today that they won't stop until mission accomplished isn't particularly good news on that front.
that assumes that Israel's default posture is "kill babies". "well, in absence of a better solution, we have to do this..." I don't agree. Israel has known for a long time that it can defend itself adequately against all military threats from suicide bombing to national armies. The "no nation would tolerate this" logic ignores the very real responsibilities that Israel has in both creating and stoking the conflict. Israel and its supporters seem to believe they have none. I think that position is not in Israel's own best interest.
The destruction of the tunnels leading into Israeli civilian communities is good news for everyone except Hamas.
Yes.
Engagement is an effective path to moderation and mutual understanding.
Extremists in both countries will respond violently.
In the past both countries have given in to extremists.
The current fighting is tragic.
I hope it ends soon.
Wahhabism is banned there, as in they'll arrest and torture practitioners/"promoters".
I understand the humanitarian crisis and state of apartheid that the Palestinian people continue to live under, but you're not going to address that by persisting in calling for the death of the Israel state. That's not moderation.
So Northern Ireland was a different kettle of fish, but one of the things that killed support for extremism was prosperity. When the Catholics were being treated like shit by the Brits and the Protestant Northern Irish, the IRA had strong support. In the nineties peace lasted long enough for foreign business to risk investment, and life got a little bit more comfortable. Sure, it wasn't the only thing that changed things, but it definitely helped.
The other thing of course was America going from a backer of the IRA to forcing them into talks. Interestingly they are in a similar position now but don't seem to want to lean on Israel.
How did this recent shit start? Israeli teenagers killed. Israel apparently knew it wasn't Hamas, but raided 200 homes, a kid was set on fire... who's goading who? Both sides are equally culpable. One is a democracy, the other under military occupation. This is where the criticism lies.
orly
also, as you posted above, they re-arrested a number of Hamas members who were just released in a prisoner swap
pretty sure he was referring to Qatar.
World Cup Qatar? Fuck, this ought to be fun...
Qatar, on the other hand...
The hand that's left?
Strikes me as very much a right hand, personally.
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-agreement-11-billion-dollars-arms-sale-qatar/1957568.html