Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Yes or No
No. At least I have no rational reason to think they did.
SMH
Some dudes on here have a very touching uncritical acceptance that govts and their agencies are populated by paragons of due process and high minded morals and would never, ever do anything naughty.
Harvey may be skewed towards seeing conspiracy in every dark corner, but I find his suspicious mindset way more credible than the opposite viewpoint.
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Yes or No
No. At least I have no rational reason to think they did.
SMH
Some dudes on here have a very touching uncritical acceptance that govts and their agencies are populated by paragons of due process and high minded morals and would never, ever do anything naughty.
742 dudes in the last 6 presidencies, but to name names would get me in Gitmo,
You know, that singularity where all normal laws of due process and morals breaks down.
The first genetically modified humans have already been born.
Hitler's blood relatives are living in the U.S.
The CIA commits over 100,000 serious crimes per year.
The U.S. planned to explode an atomic bomb on the moon.
An atomic bomb was dropped on North Carolina.
The main hero of the movie Black Hawk Down is a convicted child molester.
The discoverer of HIV no longer believes the virus is the sole cause of AIDS.
Kent State wasn't the only massacre of U.S. college students during the Vietnam era.
Lincoln didn't free any slaves.
Just spent well over three minutes trawling the govt website for info on how many people they've rubbed out, but couldn't find it. So that must mean there were no instances!
Just for control purposes, did the same on th.rush version vis a vis that dude in London who ate the radiation sushi, but couldn't find him in the stats either.
So it didn't happen.
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Dude got tooken out. That's the full baked point. Maybe the engine thing isn't as significant as I first thought, but...still.
I'm not saying he wasn't...I have no idea. I'm just looking at what was presented to me as some type of evidence of an assassination (a meme that says 'luk at tha engine bro! conpurissy!') then pointing at it and laughing at it...because it was the dumbest thing I'd seen all day.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Bon Vivant said:
Thymebomb13 said:
The terrible beauty of the paranoid mindset is that being proven wrong just reinforces the demented certainty that one is right.
The circular logic of a sick mind is breathtaking, at times.
I think Harvey just said that since he doesn't understand science, he doesn't believe science.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Harvey.
Science has too many limits to be definitive. It's only based on observation and with media stories we don't have any access to actually practice science. But that doesn't stop dudes from citing it all day, like they were investigators on the scene. So beyond whether the engine was a good or bad entry point, dude got tooken out....clearly.
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Yes or No
Michael Scott Speicher
Danny Casolero
Barry Seal
?
Well here's a short list of people who were definitely NOT killed by our government. There is no proof to suggest they were and any speculation that they were is just crazy conspiracy talk.
DEAD BODYGUARDS
Maj. Gen. William Robertson,Deputy Commanding General, V Corps, Europe
Col William Densberger,V Corps Chief of Operations and Plans
Col. Robert Kelly,V Corps Chief of Intelligence
Spec. Gary Rhodes, Crew Chief
died: 2/23/93 - All were killed when their Army UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed in Wiesbaden, Germany. No cause was ever determined. - V Corps figured prominently in the US Bosnia-Serbia peacekeeping operations, along with the carrier Roosevelt. These men, and 8 others associated with Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt all died within 4 months of each other.
Steve Willis, Clinton bodyguard
Robert Williams, Clinton bodyguard
Conway LeBleu, Clinton bodyguard
Todd McKeehan, Clinton bodyguard
died: 2/28/93 - "executed" by gunfire in the Waco, Texas assault on the Branch Davidians. - All four were examined by a "private doctor" and died from nearly identical wounds to the left temple, so-called execution style. According to Linda Thompson, videotapes and other evidence indicates that none died from guns fired by Branch Davidians. In his address to employees of the Treasury Department in the Cash Room on March 18, 1993, Clinton said: "My prayers and I'm sure yours are still with the families of all four of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed in WACO -- Todd McKeehan and Conway Le Bleu of New Orleans; Steve Willis of Houston, and Robert Williams from my hometown of Little Rock. Three of those four were assigned to my security during the course of the primary or general election." However, the Little Rock, Arkansas office of the ATF confirmed that all four had at one point been bodyguards for Bill Clinton, three while he was campaigning for President, and while he had been governor of Arkansas. In the videotape by the American Justice Federation, "WACO II, the Big Lie Continues," Linda Thompson demonstrates that 15 shots were fired from six separate weapons into and out of a room into which three of the four agents had entered through a window. Four of these shots were fired from an overhead helicopter, an agent outside the window, firing an MP5 submachine gun, who also threw in a concussion grenade, fired at least two shots into the room. In the autopsies of these agents, three had virtually identical wounds to the left temple that exited through the rear of the head, execution-style. A "private physician" treated all four.
Alan G. Whicher
Oversaw Clinton's Secret Service detail. In October 1994 Whicher was transferred to the Secret Service field office in the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. Whatever warning was given to the BATF agents in that building did not reach Alan Whicher, whom died in the bomb blast of April 19th 1995.
Cpl Eric S. Fox.
Died 3/22/99. Crewman for Marine One, the Presidential Helicopter. Shot in the head, and declared a suicide.
Five Navy aviators, Clinton bodyguards/escorts
(names not determined) died: 3/26/93 - all died in a crash of an E-2C Hawkeye in Italy. The crash occurred shortly after the plane was "waved off" from a landing attempt on the Carrier Roosevelt, due to a "foul deck". - All five men had been Clinton's escorts during Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt 2 weeks prior. Three other men, who had flown Clinton to the Roosevelt for that visit also died later in a helicopter crash.
Staff Sgt. Brian Haney, Clinton bodyguard
Marine Sgt. Tim Sabel, Clinton bodyguard
Maj. William Barkley, Clinton bodyguard
Capt. Scott Reynolds, Clinton bodyguard
died: 5/19/93 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." The Marines seized a videotape made by a firefighter. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.
Aldo Franscoia, Secret Service Agent
Cpt. Kevin N. Earnest, Aircraft Commander
Cpt. Kimberly Jo Wielhouwer, Pilot
2Lt. Benjamin T. Hall, Navigator
SSgt. Michael J. SmithJr., Loadmaster
Sr. Airman Rick L. Merritt, Flight Engineer
SSgt. Michael R. York, Loadmaster
Sr. Airman Billy R. Ogston, Crew Chief
Airman Thomas A. Stevens, Loadmaster.
Killed when the C-130 carrying the Presidential Limos crashed near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. August 18, 1996. All nine people on board a White House support plane were killed late Saterday (10:48pm MDT), when it crashed into Sheep Mountain (also known as Sleeping Indian Mountain) near Jackson Hole Wyoming. The aircraft was en route from Jackson Hole to John F. Kennedy International airport. The Air Force Lockheed Martin C-130 Hurcules transport aircraft was carrying a presidential vehicle and many pieces of luggage, all related to the president's vaction (50th birthday celebration in the Grand Tetons). President Clinton said Sunday afternoon that he was told the pilot was attempting to return to the Jackson Hole airport when it crashed (CNN news report). The Air Force reported finding no evidence of an in-flight mechanical emergency after examining the flight data and flight voice recorders and could not find evidence that the pilot radioed mechanical trouble before crashing into the mountainside as reported by the White House. The victems included 8 crew members and one Secret Service agent. The aircraft and crew were stationed out of Dyess Air Force Base.
Four Marine Pilots, Marine One Presidential Helicopter pilots.
(names not determined) died: 4/8/00 - all died (with 15 others) in a crash of a V-22 Osprey near Tucson. Witnesses reported the craft burst into flames in mid-air, then crashed.
DEAD FUNDRAISERS
C. Victor Raiser II, National Finance Co-Chairman, Clinton for President Campaign
Montgomery Raiser. Son of C. Victor Raiser II
died: 7/30/92 - Both men died in a private plane crash in Alaska, en route to a fishing expedition. The crash was blamed on the pilot, who survived. Five others not connected to Clinton died in the crash. - DeeDee Meyers described Raiser as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. Victor raiser was also chairman of Mobile Telecomm Technologies Corp., whose subsidiary, SkyTel Corp. is an international paging company used by federal police agencies such as the FBI.
Victor Raiser was a Washington lawyer and he was counsel to the Washington law firm of Jones Day Reavis & Pogue until 1991. At his death, he was the national finance co-chairman of the Clinton for President campaign. The campaign's press secretary, Dee Myers, described him as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. He and his wife had been friends of the Clintons for ten years. He was the past national finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He served on the boards of the Democratic Business Council and the Center for National Policy and the board of advisers of the Democratic Leadership Council.
On May 29, 1993, President Clinton announced that he had selected Raiser's widow, Molly Raiser, 50, former Democratic co-chair of the Women's Campaign Fund, to be his protocol chief and stated that he planned to nominate her for confirmation as an ambassador.
Paul Tully, Democratic National Committee Political Director
died: 9/24/92 - Found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock Arkansas of "unknown causes." No autopsy allowed. - Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor. Tully authored several key strategies for Clinton and the party. Paul Tully, 48, Democratic National Committee political director and architect of a strategy to make the party competitive again in presidential elections, was found dead in his hotel room on September 24, 1992, in Little Rock, Arkansas of unknown causes. Authorities speculated his death was from a heart attack or stroke. In a press release, then-presidential candidate Clinton called Mr. Tully "a dear friend and trusted adviser." He said he was "deeply saddened by the loss." Tully devised a strategy of targeting states based on their value in the Electoral College, and coordinating the presidential campaign with state and congressional races.
Ed Willey, Real Estate Attorney, Clinton Fund Raiser
died: 11/30/93 - Died of a shotgun blast to the head. Body found in deep woods in Virginia. Ruled a suicide, no note was found. Died on the same day his wife was sexually assaulted in the White House by Bill Clinton. - Intimately involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
Hershell Friday, Attorney and Clinton fund raiser.
died: 3/1/94 - Killed when his plane exploded. Cause unknown.
Duane Garrett, Radio Host and Al Gore fund raiser.
died: 7/26/95 - A lawyer and a talk show host for KGO-AM in San Francisco, Duane was the campaign finance chairman for Diane Fienstein's run for the senate, and was a friend and fundraiser for Al Gore.
According to Garrett's lawyer, Garrett was under investigation for defrauding investors in Garrett's failed sports memorabilia venture. There was talk of a deal to evade prosecution. On July 26th, Garrett canceled an afternoon meeting with his lawyer because he had to meet some people at the San Francisco airport.
Three hours later he was found floating in the bay under the Golden Gate Bridge.
Daniel A. Dutko, C-chairman of Leadership 2000
died: 7/26/99 - Daniel A. Dutko, 54, was the co-chairman of Leadership 2000, the Democratic National Committee's main fund-raising effort. He held many other high-level political positions, including vice chairman of finance for Clinton-Gore in 1995; finance chairman of the 53rd inaugural ball; and vice chairman of finance for the DNC in 1996 (when the Chinese money poured in). Attributed to a bicycle accident in which it's claimed he struck his head on the concretetwice.
DEAD WITNESSES
Luther Parks, Head of Clinton's Gubernatorial security team in Little Rock.
died: 9/26/93 - Gunned down in his car at the intersection of Chenal Parkway and Cantrell Road, near Little Rock. Parks was shot through the rear window of his car. The assailant then pulled around to the driver's side of Park's car and shot him three more times with a 9mm pistol.
His family reported that shortly before his death, unknown persons were following them, and their home had been broken into (despite a top quality alarm system). Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen.
When news of the discovery of Vincent Foster's body came over the news, Parks is reported to have said, "Bill Clinton is cleaning house".
James Bunch, Influential Texan
died: ??? - Died from a gunshot suicide, similar to Vince Foster. - Was discovered to have a "little black book" containing the names of many influential persons in Texas and Arkansas who visited certain prostitutes.
John Wilson, Former Washington DC Council member
died: 5/18/93 - Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide. Claimed to have info on Whitewater and was threatening to talk.
Bill Shelton, Arkansas state trooper and fianc??e of Kathy Ferguson
died: 6/94 - allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at the grave site of his fianc??e - Officer Shelton was the fianc??e of Kathy Ferguson, who was the ex-wife of Trooper Danny Ferguson. Kathy Ferguson also committed "suicide" 6/94 when she shot herself in her living room. Oddly, next to the body were her packed bags, as if she was expecting to be going somewhere. Danny Ferguson is a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in Paula Corbin Jones's sexual harassment suit. His ex-wife was reported as a corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.
Kathy Furguson, Ex-wife of Trooper Danny Furguson
died: circa 5/94 - Died of a supposed gunshot suicide in her living room. There was a suicide note found by the body. However, friends were surprise at having noticed nothing wrong previously. And even more curious, found nearby were several packed suitcases, as if she expected she was going somewhere. She was the former wife (since changed her name) of Trooper Danny Ferguson, who is the Arkansas State Trooper alleged to have escorted Paula Corbin Jones to the hotel room for her alleged episode of sexual harassment by then-Governor Clinton. Ferguson's wife was reported as a possible corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.
Gandy Baugh, Attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct.
died: 1/8/94 - Died in an alleged suicide by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. - Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things. Baugh's law partner was "suicided" one month later on 2/9/94
Dr. Ronald Rogers, Dentist from Arkansas
Killed in plane crash as he was on his way to an interview with a "London Sunday Telegraph" reporter to reveal some Clinton dirt.
Stanley Huggins, Partner in Memphis law firm
Investigating Madison Guaranty. Reported to have succumbed to viral pneumonia (See attack on Russel Welch). His 300-page report has never been released. Stanley had been at a Cotton Carnival Party on a Friday night. He was supposed to escort his wife all week during the 7 day event, but told her he couldn't as something important was going down. He has recently left the law firm in Little Rock where Hillary C worked and set up a small office in Memphis. On that Friday night I saw Stan and spoke to him briefly. He seemed extreemly nervous & about to jump out of his skin. The word circulated throughout the party that he had been involved in some secretive issue that was under the microscope. Soon after that we were told by his wife that he had flown up to a NE University to give a speech on a Saturday. He checked into the provided dorm room, by the university employees that said he looked fine. When they called up to his room later in the day he didn't answer the phone, so they went to check on him and found him dead. His wife has tried to get the hospital records, but they were sealed by JAnet Reno under presidential orders of Clinton. Over that weekend his Memphis office was broken into and the only noticable thing taken were his files.
Florence Martin, Accountant subcontracting to CIA
Related to the Barry Seal case. Dead of three gunshot wounds to the head. At the time of her death she had the account numbers and PIN for a bank account in the Cayman's in the name of Barry Seal which held 1.4 million dollars. Immediately followi9ng her death, the money was moved to someplace in the Virgin Islands.
Calvin Walraven
24 year on Walraven was a key witness in Jocelyn Elder's son's drug case. Ten days after Elder's son was convicted of trafficking in cocaine, Walraven was found dead in his apartment with a gunshot blast to the head. Tim Hover, a Little Rock police spokesman says no foul play is suspected.
Neil Moody
Died Aug. 25, 1996
Following Vincent Foster's murder, Lisa Foster married James Moody, a judge in Arkansas, on Jan 1, 1996.
Near the time Susan McDougal first went to jail for contempt, Judge Moody's son, Neil died in a car crash. There were other reports that Neil Moody had discovered something very unsettling among his stepmother's private papers and was threatening to go public with it just prior to the beginning of the Democratic National Convention. He was alleged to have been talking to Bob Woodward of the Washington Post about a blockbuster story. Witnesses said they saw Neil Moody sitting in his car arguing with another person just prior to HIS CAR SUDDENLY SPEEDING OFF OUT OF CONTROL AND HITTING A BRICK WALL.
Johnny Franklin Lawhon, Jr.
Died March 29, 1998
In the spring of 1997, a tornado ripped through some junked cars at Johnny's transmission and opened up the trunk of a car that proved to have a box of Whitewater records in it, including a copy of a $27,000 cashiers check drawn on Madison and payable to Bill Clinton. Johnny Franklin Lawhon, Sr. realized what he was looking at and turned the box of documents over to the FBI.
According to police, Lawhon Jr. (the son) and a friend hit a telephone pole at a high rate of speed after their car had become airborne and left the road. They had driven less than 1/4 of a mile at the time of the accident.
This manner of death is similar to the single vehicle accidents that killed Paula Grober, and Neil Moody.
Col. James Sabow
Died 1991
Supposedly about to blow the whistle on drug running activity taking place on the naval base where he was stationed, Col. James Sabow was found by his wife in the backyard of their home with his head blown off with a shotgun. The Navy ruled it a suicide. In all, more than 40 deaths by individuals concerned with drug traffic on military bases have been declared as suicides despite evidence that murder was involved.
Eric Butera
An informant who came forward offering information regarding the murder of White House intern Mary Mahoney. He was then sent into a known crack house to make an undercover buy for the police and was beaten to death.
Maynard Webb
Owned a small aircraft repair business, and had stumbled on several aircraft whose tail numbers were being changed on a regular basis. Was about to go public when he walked headfirst into a spinning propeller.
Caetano Carani.
Witness to a shooting near the White House. Suffered an unknown infection just before he was to tesify. Death attributed to "apparent" food poisoning.
Click for full scan of article
Terrance Yeakey.
First police officer to arrive at the Murrah Building following the OK City bombing. One year later, his patrol car was found abandoned along a dirt road, the front seat covered with blood. Officer Yeakey himself was found a short distance away, with cut wounds on both arms and his throat, plus a gunshot through the head. No gun was ever found, and the death was ruled a suicide. He had collected together a vast amount of hard data on the bombing of the Murrah building. That material was never found following his death. His life had been threatened.
DEAD WOMEN
Suzanne Coleman
Had affair with Clinton when he was attorney general. Died of "suicide" with gunshot wound to the back of her head. No autopsy allowed. Was 7 months pregnant at time of her death. She had told friends it was Bill Clinton's child. (See Danny Williams). She was 26 at the time of her death.
Paula Grober, Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf.
died: 12/9/92
Died in a one-car accident with no known witnesses. Her body was thrown 33 feet from the car, indicating a very high speed. A very attractive women, Paula traveled extensively with Clinton from 1978 until her death. Clinton, through a spokesman, called Grober's death "a great personal loss." He also said, "Hillary and I extend our sincere sympathy to Paula's family. I had the privilege of working with her over many years."
Judy Gibbs, Penthouse model, and call girl
died: 1986
Judy Gibbs (along with her sister Sharon) appeared in the December 1979 issue of Penthouse, and later worked at a bordello near Mena, Arkansas which also ran a blackmail operation with photos taken of the customers with their girls. According to the Gibbs family, Bill Clinton was a regular customer of Judy. While cooperating with law enforcement in a drug investigation, Judy was burned alive when her house burned down. In a sworn statement, Clinton bodyguard Barry Spivey related how he had been with the governor when the governor's plane had flown over Judy Gibb's house and Clinton had shown Judy's penthouse photos on the plane and pointed out the house.
DEAD INVESTIGATORS
Paul Wilcher, Washington attorney investigating gun running out of Mena, Arkansas.
died: 6/22/93 - Found dead on a toilet in his Washington apartment. No cause of death was ever reported by the coroner.
At the time of his death, he was investigating connections between the "October surprise" during the 1980 federal election campaign and drug and gunrunning out of Mena, Arkansas, as well as the BATF assault on the Waco, Texas Branch Davidians. Was planning on producing a television documentary on his findings. He had delivered a 105-page affidavit to Janet Reno detailing the evidence he had collected regarding the drug operation at Mena, just three weeks before his death.
Jon Parnell Walker, RTC investigator
Mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony. The same apartment which was alleged to have been a secret getaway which Foster may have visited.
DEAD COMMERCE DEPARTMENT DEATHS
Ron Brown, Former Chairman, DNC; Commerce Secretary
died: 5/3/96 - Ron Brown died along with 39 other people when the T-43 (a converted 737 used by the Air Force) carrying the group on a trip to Bosnia crashed while approaching the Dubrovnik airport. On the verge of being indicted and having stated publicly his willingness to make a deal with prosecutors, Ron Brown's death brought to an end his ability to testify.
As of this writing, Judicial Watch has petitioned for the investigation into on Brown's dealings to be expanded to include his death. (NOTE: Also belongs under dead fundraisers)
Barbara Wise, Commerce Department Staffer
died: 11/29/96 - As the scandals continued to swirl around the John Huang, one of Huang's associates, Barbara Wise, was found dead in her locked office on the fourth floor of the Department of Commerce, partially nude (by one report completely nude) and covered with bruises. No cause of death has ever been announced even though an autopsy was conducted (prior to next of kin being notified). Calls to the D.C. autopsist, Dr. Jaardemal have gotten an assurance that the bruises were not from being beaten but nothing else. Despite claims of ongoing illness, no record of a hospital visit in the months leading up to her death has surfaced. Oddly enough, following the discovery of her body, Bill Clinton made an unscheduled return to the White House from Camp David, claiming he needed a book of poetry in order to complete his inauguration speech.
Charles Meissner, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for International Economic Policy.
John Huang was placed on a Commerce Department contract that allowed him to retain his security clearance by Charles Meissner. Charles Meissner died on the plane with Ron Brown.
THE HENRY - IVES DEATHS, A.K.A. THE "TRAIN DEATHS"
Kevin Ives & Don Henry
Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon part of the Mena drug operation, specifically a drop site in the area of Bauxite and Alexander, Arkansas.
Keith Coney
Keith had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident in July 1988 while being chased by a car. Ruled a traffic accident.
Keith McKaskle
McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death in November 1988. He had told his family someone was out to kill him and told tem "good bye".
Gregory Collins
Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot blast to the face in January 1989. Declared a suicide.
Paul Olson
A Federal witness in investigations to drug money corruption in Chicago politics, Paul had just finished 2 days of FBI interviews when his plane ride home crashed, killing Paul and 130 others on Sept 8 1994. The Sept. 15, 1994 Tempe Tribune newspaper reported that the FBI suspected that a bomb had brought down the airplane.
Jeff Rhodes
He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, specifically that his hands and feet had been partially sawn off, leading to the speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. The body was then burned.
James Milam
Milam was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes, claiming that the victim's small dog had eaten the head, which was later recovered from a trash bin several blocks away.
Richard Winters
Winters were a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry, and had offered to cooperate. He was killed by a shotgun blast to the face during a "robbery" in July 1989, which was subsequently proven to be a setup.
Dan Harmon, the Prosecutor who Winters reportedly made the offer to, has since been implicated in the Kevin/Ives deaths and is now in jail for running his office as a racket.
Jordan Kettleson
Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990.
Barry Seal
Now known to have been a drug runner for the CIA, operating out of the Mena airport, Barry Seal had reportedly kept in contact with Bill Clinton's head of security at the governor's mansion, Raymond "Buddy" Young, the ex rodeo clown who is now the number 2 man at FEMA.
Following his fall from CIA grace, Barry was sentenced to live at a Salvation Army Housing Complex by a judge who also prohibited Barry Seal to either have any guns or to employ any bodyguards. Corruption doesn't become any more obvious than this. Barry was gunned down with machine gun fire in the parking lot of the Salvation Army Housing Complex.
In violation of the court order, Barry had hired bodyguards who worked a rotation schedule. But the bodyguard who was to be there when Barry was killed never showed up. That bodyguard, according to video producer Daniel Hopsicker, was a former associate (meaning drug pilot) of Barry's named William "Bear" Bottoms. Bottoms continues to this very day to prowl the internet insisting that there never was any drug running operation at Mena, Arkansas.
Anonymous
Barry Seal's aircraft mechanic at Mena (name unknown as of this time) died March 21, 1995 of an "overdose of mouthwash". Regarded by local authorities as an obvious homicide.
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Yes or No
American Citizens have been killed by the last 6 Administrations. There is no doubt about that.
Were they killed to protect sensitive and possibly damaging information? I don't know.
If by "Administration", you mean did the president directly order people killed to keep secrets? I would say, No. That doesn't mean lower level operatives didn't. But, I just don't know.
If by "Administration", you mean did the president directly order people killed to keep secrets? I would say, No. That doesn't mean lower level operatives didn't. But, I just don't know.
I don't know about governments, but I do know that in organized crime the top guys always try to distance themselves from the actual crimes their underlings commit.
742 dudes in the last 6 presidencies, but to name names would get me in Gitmo,
You know, that singularity where all normal laws of due process and morals breaks down.
If by "Administration", you mean did the president directly order people killed to keep secrets? I would say, No. That doesn't mean lower level operatives didn't. But, I just don't know.
I don't know about governments, but I do know that in organized crime the top guys always try to distance themselves from the actual crimes their underlings commit.
With all those people you listed as being mysteriously deaded, especially Clinton guys, it's surprising that the GOP Congress during the Clinton years didn't investigate ANY one of those mysteries. Unless, they were in on it...Muuhahahahahahahaha!
Does that mean your theory is false, of course not. It just an observation. Politics were nearly as partisan and polarizing under Clinton as they are now. Let's not forget that Clinton was impeached for lying about cheating on his wife. I find it hard to believe that the GOP Congress of that era would not have done thorough investigation in to credible murder allegations, especially when the alleged murdered are military guys.
If by "Administration", you mean did the president directly order people killed to keep secrets? I would say, No. That doesn't mean lower level operatives didn't. But, I just don't know.
I don't know about governments, but I do know that in organized crime the top guys always try to distance themselves from the actual crimes their underlings commit.
With all those people you listed as being mysteriously deaded, especially Clinton guys, it's surprising that the GOP Congress during the Clinton years didn't investigate ANY one of those mysteries. Unless, they were in on it...Muuhahahahahahahaha!
Does that mean your theory is false, of course not. It just an observation. Politics were nearly as partisan and polarizing under Clinton as they are now. Let's not forget that Clinton was impeached for lying about cheating on his wife. I find it hard to believe that the GOP Congress of that era would not have done thorough investigation in to credible murder allegations, especially when the alleged murdered are military guys.
Go figure.
My theory?
You obviously did not read my opening sentence.
Well here's a short list of people who were definitely NOT killed by our government. There is no proof to suggest they were and any speculation that they were is just crazy conspiracy talk.
Well here's a short list of people who were definitely NOT killed by our government. There is no proof to suggest they were and any speculation that they were is just crazy conspiracy talk.
Conspiracy theory: govt plants covert agents like BV and LMJ TB to supply anti-conspiracy propaganda into the discussion.
Rational theory: govt relies on intelligent and articulate dudes like BV and TB as a natural part of the demographic to supply that view without reward or coercion.
Irrational theory: same sane intelligent and articulate dudes truly believe that this govt, contrary to millenia's worth of historical experience, do not eliminate certain elements undesirable to them.
Irrational theory: same sane intelligent and articulate dudes truly believe that this govt, contrary to millenia's worth of historical experience, do not eliminate certain elements undesirable to them.
Our government hasn't been around for a millenia. Our government ( I mean the Unitted States), also isn't a "them", it's an "us".
This sentence piqued my curiosity, because I can't figure out what you meant by it.
Without limits, nothing can be definitive. Every single thing we experience is defined by its limits, which makes the above sentence appear paradoxical.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining your perspective?
Conspiracy theory: govt plants covert agents like BV and LMJ TB to supply anti-conspiracy propaganda into the discussion.
(My personal) Rational theory: [del]govt relies on intelligent and articulate dudes like BV and TB as a natural part of the demographic to supply that view without reward or coercion.[/del] Avoids sweeping generalizations like all three presented in this quote and takes things on a logical case by case basis where arguments with legitimate/well-supported facts/points are generally accepted but completely open to being altered when/if further evidence/points presents itself/themselves.
Irrational theory: same sane intelligent and articulate dudes truly believe that this govt, contrary to millenia's worth of historical experience, do not eliminate certain elements undesirable to them.
I spoke to my dad the other day about this and his perspective was kind of funny. He said I went to Vietnam and was told I was fighting against the dangers of communism, spent 20 years around the world with the USAF during the cold war protecting America from communism, and now Snowden, who is an American hero for what he's doing, has to seek refuge from America(!) in Communist China - this country is fucked.
He then had the cheek to immediately ask if I'd reconsidered moving over there :lol:
So the latest is that the US is filing criminal charges of espionage against Snowden. Anyway somebody can carve facepalms onto the Rushmore national monument?
So the latest is that the US is filing criminal charges of espionage against Snowden. Anyway somebody can carve facepalms onto the Rushmore national monument?
the party that took office on the political platform of America needing MORE whistleblowers has filed high crime charges against its first and most important.
I even like maple syrup!
Yeah, on the verge of paying-off the last of my student-debt and currently live in a madhouse with an alcoholic real-life version of this character
plus a jobless piano-playing child-man and a guy legally classed as mentally ill (although he's the sanest of the bunch). Not much holding me here really :lol:
Back on topic, the only positive side to all this is that it is/was inevitable that the internet would be misused at some point. America has the chance to fix this, and if they do you'd imagine that they'd extend some kind of "fair practice" policy around the world and other countries could also benefit.
and now Snowden, who is an American hero for what he's doing, has to seek refuge from America(!) in Communist China - this country is fucked
And now Russia!
This story just gets better and better.
Yes, I'm tempted to call my dad just to see his reaction to this latest development.
As a story, I'm thinking Teh US of A was once known as Anakin Skywalker. Snowden might as well be seeking protection from Jabba the Hut though as I assume there will be strings attached.
Britain's GCHQ have also been snooping & the Germans are not amused.
Will anything actually happen? Seems that governments often play the tactic of letting revelation after revelation come out knowing that the public gets fatigued over certain stories after a while...
Comments
Do you believe that any of the last 6 Administrations had even one American Citizen murdered for the sole purpose of keeping them from revealing sensitive and possibly damaging information.
Yes or No
SMH
Some dudes on here have a very touching uncritical acceptance that govts and their agencies are populated by paragons of due process and high minded morals and would never, ever do anything naughty.
Harvey may be skewed towards seeing conspiracy in every dark corner, but I find his suspicious mindset way more credible than the opposite viewpoint.
I'll bite - which ones did they kill?
You know, that singularity where all normal laws of due process and morals breaks down.
Absence of proof does not equal proof of absence
Just for control purposes, did the same on th.rush version vis a vis that dude in London who ate the radiation sushi, but couldn't find him in the stats either.
So it didn't happen.
Cyrillic is a bastard btw.
Michael Scott Speicher
Danny Casolero
Barry Seal
?
There is another choice than picking one of the two extremes...be a rational person.
I'm not saying he wasn't...I have no idea. I'm just looking at what was presented to me as some type of evidence of an assassination (a meme that says 'luk at tha engine bro! conpurissy!') then pointing at it and laughing at it...because it was the dumbest thing I'd seen all day.
Science has too many limits to be definitive. It's only based on observation and with media stories we don't have any access to actually practice science. But that doesn't stop dudes from citing it all day, like they were investigators on the scene. So beyond whether the engine was a good or bad entry point, dude got tooken out....clearly.
Well here's a short list of people who were definitely NOT killed by our government. There is no proof to suggest they were and any speculation that they were is just crazy conspiracy talk.
DEAD BODYGUARDS
Maj. Gen. William Robertson,Deputy Commanding General, V Corps, Europe
Col William Densberger,V Corps Chief of Operations and Plans
Col. Robert Kelly,V Corps Chief of Intelligence
Spec. Gary Rhodes, Crew Chief
died: 2/23/93 - All were killed when their Army UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crashed in Wiesbaden, Germany. No cause was ever determined. - V Corps figured prominently in the US Bosnia-Serbia peacekeeping operations, along with the carrier Roosevelt. These men, and 8 others associated with Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt all died within 4 months of each other.
Steve Willis, Clinton bodyguard
Robert Williams, Clinton bodyguard
Conway LeBleu, Clinton bodyguard
Todd McKeehan, Clinton bodyguard
died: 2/28/93 - "executed" by gunfire in the Waco, Texas assault on the Branch Davidians. - All four were examined by a "private doctor" and died from nearly identical wounds to the left temple, so-called execution style. According to Linda Thompson, videotapes and other evidence indicates that none died from guns fired by Branch Davidians. In his address to employees of the Treasury Department in the Cash Room on March 18, 1993, Clinton said: "My prayers and I'm sure yours are still with the families of all four of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed in WACO -- Todd McKeehan and Conway Le Bleu of New Orleans; Steve Willis of Houston, and Robert Williams from my hometown of Little Rock. Three of those four were assigned to my security during the course of the primary or general election." However, the Little Rock, Arkansas office of the ATF confirmed that all four had at one point been bodyguards for Bill Clinton, three while he was campaigning for President, and while he had been governor of Arkansas. In the videotape by the American Justice Federation, "WACO II, the Big Lie Continues," Linda Thompson demonstrates that 15 shots were fired from six separate weapons into and out of a room into which three of the four agents had entered through a window. Four of these shots were fired from an overhead helicopter, an agent outside the window, firing an MP5 submachine gun, who also threw in a concussion grenade, fired at least two shots into the room. In the autopsies of these agents, three had virtually identical wounds to the left temple that exited through the rear of the head, execution-style. A "private physician" treated all four.
Alan G. Whicher
Oversaw Clinton's Secret Service detail. In October 1994 Whicher was transferred to the Secret Service field office in the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. Whatever warning was given to the BATF agents in that building did not reach Alan Whicher, whom died in the bomb blast of April 19th 1995.
Cpl Eric S. Fox.
Died 3/22/99. Crewman for Marine One, the Presidential Helicopter. Shot in the head, and declared a suicide.
Five Navy aviators, Clinton bodyguards/escorts
(names not determined) died: 3/26/93 - all died in a crash of an E-2C Hawkeye in Italy. The crash occurred shortly after the plane was "waved off" from a landing attempt on the Carrier Roosevelt, due to a "foul deck". - All five men had been Clinton's escorts during Clinton's visit to the Roosevelt 2 weeks prior. Three other men, who had flown Clinton to the Roosevelt for that visit also died later in a helicopter crash.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Staff Sgt. Brian Haney, Clinton bodyguard
Marine Sgt. Tim Sabel, Clinton bodyguard
Maj. William Barkley, Clinton bodyguard
Capt. Scott Reynolds, Clinton bodyguard
died: 5/19/93 - All four men died when their helicopter crashed in the woods near Quantico, Va. - Reporters were barred from the site, and the head of the fire department responding to the crash described it by saying, "Security was tight," with "lots of Marines with guns." The Marines seized a videotape made by a firefighter. All four men had escorted Clinton on his flight to the carrier Roosevelt shortly before their deaths.
Aldo Franscoia, Secret Service Agent
Cpt. Kevin N. Earnest, Aircraft Commander
Cpt. Kimberly Jo Wielhouwer, Pilot
2Lt. Benjamin T. Hall, Navigator
SSgt. Michael J. SmithJr., Loadmaster
Sr. Airman Rick L. Merritt, Flight Engineer
SSgt. Michael R. York, Loadmaster
Sr. Airman Billy R. Ogston, Crew Chief
Airman Thomas A. Stevens, Loadmaster.
Killed when the C-130 carrying the Presidential Limos crashed near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. August 18, 1996. All nine people on board a White House support plane were killed late Saterday (10:48pm MDT), when it crashed into Sheep Mountain (also known as Sleeping Indian Mountain) near Jackson Hole Wyoming. The aircraft was en route from Jackson Hole to John F. Kennedy International airport. The Air Force Lockheed Martin C-130 Hurcules transport aircraft was carrying a presidential vehicle and many pieces of luggage, all related to the president's vaction (50th birthday celebration in the Grand Tetons). President Clinton said Sunday afternoon that he was told the pilot was attempting to return to the Jackson Hole airport when it crashed (CNN news report). The Air Force reported finding no evidence of an in-flight mechanical emergency after examining the flight data and flight voice recorders and could not find evidence that the pilot radioed mechanical trouble before crashing into the mountainside as reported by the White House. The victems included 8 crew members and one Secret Service agent. The aircraft and crew were stationed out of Dyess Air Force Base.
Four Marine Pilots, Marine One Presidential Helicopter pilots.
(names not determined) died: 4/8/00 - all died (with 15 others) in a crash of a V-22 Osprey near Tucson. Witnesses reported the craft burst into flames in mid-air, then crashed.
DEAD FUNDRAISERS
C. Victor Raiser II, National Finance Co-Chairman, Clinton for President Campaign
Montgomery Raiser. Son of C. Victor Raiser II
died: 7/30/92 - Both men died in a private plane crash in Alaska, en route to a fishing expedition. The crash was blamed on the pilot, who survived. Five others not connected to Clinton died in the crash. - DeeDee Meyers described Raiser as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. Victor raiser was also chairman of Mobile Telecomm Technologies Corp., whose subsidiary, SkyTel Corp. is an international paging company used by federal police agencies such as the FBI.
Victor Raiser was a Washington lawyer and he was counsel to the Washington law firm of Jones Day Reavis & Pogue until 1991. At his death, he was the national finance co-chairman of the Clinton for President campaign. The campaign's press secretary, Dee Myers, described him as a "major player" in the Clinton organization. He and his wife had been friends of the Clintons for ten years. He was the past national finance chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He served on the boards of the Democratic Business Council and the Center for National Policy and the board of advisers of the Democratic Leadership Council.
On May 29, 1993, President Clinton announced that he had selected Raiser's widow, Molly Raiser, 50, former Democratic co-chair of the Women's Campaign Fund, to be his protocol chief and stated that he planned to nominate her for confirmation as an ambassador.
Paul Tully, Democratic National Committee Political Director
died: 9/24/92 - Found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock Arkansas of "unknown causes." No autopsy allowed. - Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor. Tully authored several key strategies for Clinton and the party. Paul Tully, 48, Democratic National Committee political director and architect of a strategy to make the party competitive again in presidential elections, was found dead in his hotel room on September 24, 1992, in Little Rock, Arkansas of unknown causes. Authorities speculated his death was from a heart attack or stroke. In a press release, then-presidential candidate Clinton called Mr. Tully "a dear friend and trusted adviser." He said he was "deeply saddened by the loss." Tully devised a strategy of targeting states based on their value in the Electoral College, and coordinating the presidential campaign with state and congressional races.
Ed Willey, Real Estate Attorney, Clinton Fund Raiser
died: 11/30/93 - Died of a shotgun blast to the head. Body found in deep woods in Virginia. Ruled a suicide, no note was found. Died on the same day his wife was sexually assaulted in the White House by Bill Clinton. - Intimately involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
Hershell Friday, Attorney and Clinton fund raiser.
died: 3/1/94 - Killed when his plane exploded. Cause unknown.
Duane Garrett, Radio Host and Al Gore fund raiser.
died: 7/26/95 - A lawyer and a talk show host for KGO-AM in San Francisco, Duane was the campaign finance chairman for Diane Fienstein's run for the senate, and was a friend and fundraiser for Al Gore.
According to Garrett's lawyer, Garrett was under investigation for defrauding investors in Garrett's failed sports memorabilia venture. There was talk of a deal to evade prosecution. On July 26th, Garrett canceled an afternoon meeting with his lawyer because he had to meet some people at the San Francisco airport.
Three hours later he was found floating in the bay under the Golden Gate Bridge.
Daniel A. Dutko, C-chairman of Leadership 2000
died: 7/26/99 - Daniel A. Dutko, 54, was the co-chairman of Leadership 2000, the Democratic National Committee's main fund-raising effort. He held many other high-level political positions, including vice chairman of finance for Clinton-Gore in 1995; finance chairman of the 53rd inaugural ball; and vice chairman of finance for the DNC in 1996 (when the Chinese money poured in). Attributed to a bicycle accident in which it's claimed he struck his head on the concretetwice.
DEAD WITNESSES
Luther Parks, Head of Clinton's Gubernatorial security team in Little Rock.
died: 9/26/93 - Gunned down in his car at the intersection of Chenal Parkway and Cantrell Road, near Little Rock. Parks was shot through the rear window of his car. The assailant then pulled around to the driver's side of Park's car and shot him three more times with a 9mm pistol.
His family reported that shortly before his death, unknown persons were following them, and their home had been broken into (despite a top quality alarm system). Parks had been compiling a dossier on Clinton's illicit activities. The dossier was stolen.
When news of the discovery of Vincent Foster's body came over the news, Parks is reported to have said, "Bill Clinton is cleaning house".
James Bunch, Influential Texan
died: ??? - Died from a gunshot suicide, similar to Vince Foster. - Was discovered to have a "little black book" containing the names of many influential persons in Texas and Arkansas who visited certain prostitutes.
John Wilson, Former Washington DC Council member
died: 5/18/93 - Found dead from an apparent hanging suicide. Claimed to have info on Whitewater and was threatening to talk.
Bill Shelton, Arkansas state trooper and fianc??e of Kathy Ferguson
died: 6/94 - allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at the grave site of his fianc??e - Officer Shelton was the fianc??e of Kathy Ferguson, who was the ex-wife of Trooper Danny Ferguson. Kathy Ferguson also committed "suicide" 6/94 when she shot herself in her living room. Oddly, next to the body were her packed bags, as if she was expecting to be going somewhere. Danny Ferguson is a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in Paula Corbin Jones's sexual harassment suit. His ex-wife was reported as a corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.
Kathy Furguson, Ex-wife of Trooper Danny Furguson
died: circa 5/94 - Died of a supposed gunshot suicide in her living room. There was a suicide note found by the body. However, friends were surprise at having noticed nothing wrong previously. And even more curious, found nearby were several packed suitcases, as if she expected she was going somewhere. She was the former wife (since changed her name) of Trooper Danny Ferguson, who is the Arkansas State Trooper alleged to have escorted Paula Corbin Jones to the hotel room for her alleged episode of sexual harassment by then-Governor Clinton. Ferguson's wife was reported as a possible corroborating witness for Ms. Jones.
Gandy Baugh, Attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct.
died: 1/8/94 - Died in an alleged suicide by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. - Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things. Baugh's law partner was "suicided" one month later on 2/9/94
Dr. Ronald Rogers, Dentist from Arkansas
Killed in plane crash as he was on his way to an interview with a "London Sunday Telegraph" reporter to reveal some Clinton dirt.
Stanley Huggins, Partner in Memphis law firm
Investigating Madison Guaranty. Reported to have succumbed to viral pneumonia (See attack on Russel Welch). His 300-page report has never been released. Stanley had been at a Cotton Carnival Party on a Friday night. He was supposed to escort his wife all week during the 7 day event, but told her he couldn't as something important was going down. He has recently left the law firm in Little Rock where Hillary C worked and set up a small office in Memphis. On that Friday night I saw Stan and spoke to him briefly. He seemed extreemly nervous & about to jump out of his skin. The word circulated throughout the party that he had been involved in some secretive issue that was under the microscope. Soon after that we were told by his wife that he had flown up to a NE University to give a speech on a Saturday. He checked into the provided dorm room, by the university employees that said he looked fine. When they called up to his room later in the day he didn't answer the phone, so they went to check on him and found him dead. His wife has tried to get the hospital records, but they were sealed by JAnet Reno under presidential orders of Clinton. Over that weekend his Memphis office was broken into and the only noticable thing taken were his files.
Florence Martin, Accountant subcontracting to CIA
Related to the Barry Seal case. Dead of three gunshot wounds to the head. At the time of her death she had the account numbers and PIN for a bank account in the Cayman's in the name of Barry Seal which held 1.4 million dollars. Immediately followi9ng her death, the money was moved to someplace in the Virgin Islands.
Calvin Walraven
24 year on Walraven was a key witness in Jocelyn Elder's son's drug case. Ten days after Elder's son was convicted of trafficking in cocaine, Walraven was found dead in his apartment with a gunshot blast to the head. Tim Hover, a Little Rock police spokesman says no foul play is suspected.
Neil Moody
Died Aug. 25, 1996
Following Vincent Foster's murder, Lisa Foster married James Moody, a judge in Arkansas, on Jan 1, 1996.
Near the time Susan McDougal first went to jail for contempt, Judge Moody's son, Neil died in a car crash. There were other reports that Neil Moody had discovered something very unsettling among his stepmother's private papers and was threatening to go public with it just prior to the beginning of the Democratic National Convention. He was alleged to have been talking to Bob Woodward of the Washington Post about a blockbuster story. Witnesses said they saw Neil Moody sitting in his car arguing with another person just prior to HIS CAR SUDDENLY SPEEDING OFF OUT OF CONTROL AND HITTING A BRICK WALL.
Johnny Franklin Lawhon, Jr.
Died March 29, 1998
In the spring of 1997, a tornado ripped through some junked cars at Johnny's transmission and opened up the trunk of a car that proved to have a box of Whitewater records in it, including a copy of a $27,000 cashiers check drawn on Madison and payable to Bill Clinton. Johnny Franklin Lawhon, Sr. realized what he was looking at and turned the box of documents over to the FBI.
According to police, Lawhon Jr. (the son) and a friend hit a telephone pole at a high rate of speed after their car had become airborne and left the road. They had driven less than 1/4 of a mile at the time of the accident.
This manner of death is similar to the single vehicle accidents that killed Paula Grober, and Neil Moody.
Col. James Sabow
Died 1991
Supposedly about to blow the whistle on drug running activity taking place on the naval base where he was stationed, Col. James Sabow was found by his wife in the backyard of their home with his head blown off with a shotgun. The Navy ruled it a suicide. In all, more than 40 deaths by individuals concerned with drug traffic on military bases have been declared as suicides despite evidence that murder was involved.
Eric Butera
An informant who came forward offering information regarding the murder of White House intern Mary Mahoney. He was then sent into a known crack house to make an undercover buy for the police and was beaten to death.
Maynard Webb
Owned a small aircraft repair business, and had stumbled on several aircraft whose tail numbers were being changed on a regular basis. Was about to go public when he walked headfirst into a spinning propeller.
Caetano Carani.
Witness to a shooting near the White House. Suffered an unknown infection just before he was to tesify. Death attributed to "apparent" food poisoning.
Click for full scan of article
Terrance Yeakey.
First police officer to arrive at the Murrah Building following the OK City bombing. One year later, his patrol car was found abandoned along a dirt road, the front seat covered with blood. Officer Yeakey himself was found a short distance away, with cut wounds on both arms and his throat, plus a gunshot through the head. No gun was ever found, and the death was ruled a suicide. He had collected together a vast amount of hard data on the bombing of the Murrah building. That material was never found following his death. His life had been threatened.
DEAD WOMEN
Suzanne Coleman
Had affair with Clinton when he was attorney general. Died of "suicide" with gunshot wound to the back of her head. No autopsy allowed. Was 7 months pregnant at time of her death. She had told friends it was Bill Clinton's child. (See Danny Williams). She was 26 at the time of her death.
Paula Grober, Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf.
died: 12/9/92
Died in a one-car accident with no known witnesses. Her body was thrown 33 feet from the car, indicating a very high speed. A very attractive women, Paula traveled extensively with Clinton from 1978 until her death. Clinton, through a spokesman, called Grober's death "a great personal loss." He also said, "Hillary and I extend our sincere sympathy to Paula's family. I had the privilege of working with her over many years."
Judy Gibbs, Penthouse model, and call girl
died: 1986
Judy Gibbs (along with her sister Sharon) appeared in the December 1979 issue of Penthouse, and later worked at a bordello near Mena, Arkansas which also ran a blackmail operation with photos taken of the customers with their girls. According to the Gibbs family, Bill Clinton was a regular customer of Judy. While cooperating with law enforcement in a drug investigation, Judy was burned alive when her house burned down. In a sworn statement, Clinton bodyguard Barry Spivey related how he had been with the governor when the governor's plane had flown over Judy Gibb's house and Clinton had shown Judy's penthouse photos on the plane and pointed out the house.
DEAD INVESTIGATORS
Paul Wilcher, Washington attorney investigating gun running out of Mena, Arkansas.
died: 6/22/93 - Found dead on a toilet in his Washington apartment. No cause of death was ever reported by the coroner.
At the time of his death, he was investigating connections between the "October surprise" during the 1980 federal election campaign and drug and gunrunning out of Mena, Arkansas, as well as the BATF assault on the Waco, Texas Branch Davidians. Was planning on producing a television documentary on his findings. He had delivered a 105-page affidavit to Janet Reno detailing the evidence he had collected regarding the drug operation at Mena, just three weeks before his death.
Jon Parnell Walker, RTC investigator
Mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony. The same apartment which was alleged to have been a secret getaway which Foster may have visited.
DEAD COMMERCE DEPARTMENT DEATHS
Ron Brown, Former Chairman, DNC; Commerce Secretary
died: 5/3/96 - Ron Brown died along with 39 other people when the T-43 (a converted 737 used by the Air Force) carrying the group on a trip to Bosnia crashed while approaching the Dubrovnik airport. On the verge of being indicted and having stated publicly his willingness to make a deal with prosecutors, Ron Brown's death brought to an end his ability to testify.
As of this writing, Judicial Watch has petitioned for the investigation into on Brown's dealings to be expanded to include his death. (NOTE: Also belongs under dead fundraisers)
Barbara Wise, Commerce Department Staffer
died: 11/29/96 - As the scandals continued to swirl around the John Huang, one of Huang's associates, Barbara Wise, was found dead in her locked office on the fourth floor of the Department of Commerce, partially nude (by one report completely nude) and covered with bruises. No cause of death has ever been announced even though an autopsy was conducted (prior to next of kin being notified). Calls to the D.C. autopsist, Dr. Jaardemal have gotten an assurance that the bruises were not from being beaten but nothing else. Despite claims of ongoing illness, no record of a hospital visit in the months leading up to her death has surfaced. Oddly enough, following the discovery of her body, Bill Clinton made an unscheduled return to the White House from Camp David, claiming he needed a book of poetry in order to complete his inauguration speech.
Charles Meissner, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for International Economic Policy.
John Huang was placed on a Commerce Department contract that allowed him to retain his security clearance by Charles Meissner. Charles Meissner died on the plane with Ron Brown.
THE HENRY - IVES DEATHS, A.K.A. THE "TRAIN DEATHS"
Kevin Ives & Don Henry
Initial cause of death was reported to be the result of falling asleep on a railroad track in Arkansas on August 23, 1987. This ruling was reported by the State medical examiner Fahmy Malak. Later it was determined that Kevin died from a crushed skull prior to being placed on the tracks. Don had been stabbed in the back. Rumors indicate that they might have stumbled upon part of the Mena drug operation, specifically a drop site in the area of Bauxite and Alexander, Arkansas.
Keith Coney
Keith had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident in July 1988 while being chased by a car. Ruled a traffic accident.
Keith McKaskle
McKaskle has information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He was stabbed to death in November 1988. He had told his family someone was out to kill him and told tem "good bye".
Gregory Collins
Greg had information on the Ives/Henry deaths. He died from a gunshot blast to the face in January 1989. Declared a suicide.
Paul Olson
A Federal witness in investigations to drug money corruption in Chicago politics, Paul had just finished 2 days of FBI interviews when his plane ride home crashed, killing Paul and 130 others on Sept 8 1994. The Sept. 15, 1994 Tempe Tribune newspaper reported that the FBI suspected that a bomb had brought down the airplane.
Jeff Rhodes
He had information on the deaths of Ives, Henry & McKaskle. His burned body was found in a trash dump in April 1989. He died of a gunshot wound to the head and there was some body mutilation, specifically that his hands and feet had been partially sawn off, leading to the speculation that he was tortured prior to being killed. The body was then burned.
James Milam
Milam was decapitated. The state Medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, initially ruled death due to natural causes, claiming that the victim's small dog had eaten the head, which was later recovered from a trash bin several blocks away.
Richard Winters
Winters were a suspect in the deaths of Ives & Henry, and had offered to cooperate. He was killed by a shotgun blast to the face during a "robbery" in July 1989, which was subsequently proven to be a setup.
Dan Harmon, the Prosecutor who Winters reportedly made the offer to, has since been implicated in the Kevin/Ives deaths and is now in jail for running his office as a racket.
Jordan Kettleson
Kettleson had information on the Ives & Henry deaths. He was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup in June 1990.
Barry Seal
Now known to have been a drug runner for the CIA, operating out of the Mena airport, Barry Seal had reportedly kept in contact with Bill Clinton's head of security at the governor's mansion, Raymond "Buddy" Young, the ex rodeo clown who is now the number 2 man at FEMA.
Following his fall from CIA grace, Barry was sentenced to live at a Salvation Army Housing Complex by a judge who also prohibited Barry Seal to either have any guns or to employ any bodyguards. Corruption doesn't become any more obvious than this. Barry was gunned down with machine gun fire in the parking lot of the Salvation Army Housing Complex.
In violation of the court order, Barry had hired bodyguards who worked a rotation schedule. But the bodyguard who was to be there when Barry was killed never showed up. That bodyguard, according to video producer Daniel Hopsicker, was a former associate (meaning drug pilot) of Barry's named William "Bear" Bottoms. Bottoms continues to this very day to prowl the internet insisting that there never was any drug running operation at Mena, Arkansas.
Anonymous
Barry Seal's aircraft mechanic at Mena (name unknown as of this time) died March 21, 1995 of an "overdose of mouthwash". Regarded by local authorities as an obvious homicide.
American Citizens have been killed by the last 6 Administrations. There is no doubt about that.
Were they killed to protect sensitive and possibly damaging information? I don't know.
If by "Administration", you mean did the president directly order people killed to keep secrets? I would say, No. That doesn't mean lower level operatives didn't. But, I just don't know.
I don't know about governments, but I do know that in organized crime the top guys always try to distance themselves from the actual crimes their underlings commit.
That's a very precise number.
Amazing.
With all those people you listed as being mysteriously deaded, especially Clinton guys, it's surprising that the GOP Congress during the Clinton years didn't investigate ANY one of those mysteries. Unless, they were in on it...Muuhahahahahahahaha!
Does that mean your theory is false, of course not. It just an observation. Politics were nearly as partisan and polarizing under Clinton as they are now. Let's not forget that Clinton was impeached for lying about cheating on his wife. I find it hard to believe that the GOP Congress of that era would not have done thorough investigation in to credible murder allegations, especially when the alleged murdered are military guys.
Go figure.
My theory?
You obviously did not read my opening sentence.
Well here's a short list of people who were definitely NOT killed by our government. There is no proof to suggest they were and any speculation that they were is just crazy conspiracy talk.
My bad. I took that as tongue in cheek.
Rational theory: govt relies on intelligent and articulate dudes like BV and TB as a natural part of the demographic to supply that view without reward or coercion.
Irrational theory: same sane intelligent and articulate dudes truly believe that this govt, contrary to millenia's worth of historical experience, do not eliminate certain elements undesirable to them.
You should be getting a knock on your door soon.
Our government hasn't been around for a millenia. Our government ( I mean the Unitted States), also isn't a "them", it's an "us".
Without limits, nothing can be definitive. Every single thing we experience is defined by its limits, which makes the above sentence appear paradoxical.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining your perspective?
To each their own...
He then had the cheek to immediately ask if I'd reconsidered moving over there :lol:
So the latest is that the US is filing criminal charges of espionage against Snowden. Anyway somebody can carve facepalms onto the Rushmore national monument?
the party that took office on the political platform of America needing MORE whistleblowers has filed high crime charges against its first and most important.
plenty a room here in canadia duder.
pukes in mouth >>>>
I even like maple syrup!
Yeah, on the verge of paying-off the last of my student-debt and currently live in a madhouse with an alcoholic real-life version of this character
plus a jobless piano-playing child-man and a guy legally classed as mentally ill (although he's the sanest of the bunch). Not much holding me here really :lol:
Back on topic, the only positive side to all this is that it is/was inevitable that the internet would be misused at some point. America has the chance to fix this, and if they do you'd imagine that they'd extend some kind of "fair practice" policy around the world and other countries could also benefit.
And now Russia!
This story just gets better and better.
Yes, I'm tempted to call my dad just to see his reaction to this latest development.
As a story, I'm thinking Teh US of A was once known as Anakin Skywalker. Snowden might as well be seeking protection from Jabba the Hut though as I assume there will be strings attached.
Britain's GCHQ have also been snooping & the Germans are not amused.
Will anything actually happen? Seems that governments often play the tactic of letting revelation after revelation come out knowing that the public gets fatigued over certain stories after a while...