Giggling? I have yet to see a Bush or Cheney (especially Cheney) speak where he didn't have a patronizing smirk on his mug.
Damn, L##ry, you gave me a new perspective. I was real skeptical about Sheehan (in that picture, particularly) and I guess she maybe was nervous? A nervous smile perhaps.
Giggling? I have yet to see a Bush or Cheney (especially Cheney) speak where he didn't have a patronizing smirk on his mug.
Damn, L##ry, you gave me a new perspective. I was real skeptical about Sheehan (in that picture, particularly) and I guess she maybe was nervous? A nervous smile perhaps.
I've seen a fair amount of video of her on the news and she seems genuine to me. One of the problems (at least as I see it) is that a lot of what constitutes the "traditional" anti-war left these days (and has the apparatus in place to mobilize for demonstrations) contains a fringe element that carries with it the stigma of the ultra-left, as well as the kind of identity politics that has polarized this country to such an extent. It's almost impossible for the mainstream media to separate Sheehan's actions with those of the most extreme people in her current orbit. The left has been so pummelled in the last 25 years (in all it's traditional aspects) that it's going to take some time for it to regain it's once healthy "middle ground". I've been going to demonstrations since I was a kid, and I've seen the Mao-ist dreadlock window smashers, but I've also seen all kinds of grass roots social justice organizations, as well as lots of "normal" folks (i.e. not specifically politically radical) who have been moved by events they see as contradictory to the nature of what America is supposed to be like, and have come out to make their voices heard. You don't often see these people on the news, and there are a lot of them. I think Cindy Sheehan is one of them.
Giggling? I have yet to see a Bush or Cheney (especially Cheney) speak where he didn't have a patronizing smirk on his mug.
Damn, L##ry, you gave me a new perspective. I was real skeptical about Sheehan (in that picture, particularly) and I guess she maybe was nervous? A nervous smile perhaps.
I don't think her demeanor at the protest says anything bad about her motives or anything like that.
What I find so troubling is that so often (and especially recently) when there is a stand against the powers that be (for whatever issue), some of our spokespersons tend to send out an image that doesn't resonate at all with middle america or the people that we hope to convert. We aren't careful enough about how our message will be received by those whom we seek to persuade.
We need to be strategic about how we do things. Images of Howard Dean yelling all kinds of insulting language about Bush (granted, most of us probably agree with him), for example, only further alienate those people who we need in order to change things. What they see is a red faced maniac hurling insults, and in effect the message gets lost behind the image.
What we really need is.. gasp.. our own Karl Rove.
Thats not the question tho... We are talking about his choice with his life.
And who knows better what that choice was? You or his mother?
Well, from the little I've read, alot of the family says a different story. And I'm guessing that if he didn't do it for money/college he had a different reason.
I'm not here trying to debate you on someones death. I'm just trying to understand better. Since, I know if I had made a choice to join the army out of my own beliefs, I would hope my mother would not use me as a symbol of something I didn't agree with.
IMO she can fight for whatever cause she believes in tho, so if thats what she needs to do, to help her deal with her sons death. More power to her.
Keep in mind too, that there are people that have claimed to speak for her son, who apparently had little or nothing to do with him in real life (i.e. somewhat distant relatives), who were more interested in looking like "patriots" than considering the feelings of his grieving mother, not to mention Bush-boosters who'd like to assassinate her character as thoroughly as possible:
Like I said, I'm not here to debate. If this is what Cindy needs to do, to help her deal with her sons death, more power to her. All I really knew was that he had signed up before 9/11 of his own free will, hoping to help people while in uniform.
I just hope that where ever Casey is, he's at peace now.
I just wonder if she's doing more harm than good for the cause. It almoost seems as if she was planted as a divide and concur catalyst.
actually, if it there is anyone that was planted to divide and conquer, it was ANSWER.
i mean, this is a group that refused to let Rabbi Michael Lerner (colleague of Cornell West's and tireless peace activist with a devoted following) speak at their events because he supports the existence of Israel. American Jews have always been on the forefront of progressive causes and anti-war movements, and ANSWER did a lot to alienate them. Hence divide and conquer.
Also if you fish around on their website you come up with some disturbing stuff. Vitamin wasn't bullshitting: they support North Korea's dictator, supported Saddam etc.
so in my opinion they were just as if not more divisive than Sheehan.
Sheehan reminds most Americans of their neighbors, as opposed to other leaders of this movement who remind most Americans of their enemies, and with good reason.
I can honestly relate to this same statement. When I look at alot of the anti war movement, I see alot of liberal leaning political dudes bitching about the bush administration. Which I dont disagree with. But I do find it difficult to take alot of them seriously as I think they would be bitching about the bush administration no matter what was going on.
Unlike alot of them, I dont neccesarily believe an administration party swap is going to cure the country of all its evils. And honestly, that sort of political grandstanding coming from the other side is getting about as old as the lies coming from the administration.
All of these dudes are fucking reptiles. I swear to god. Having a spokesperson that was not already a pundit for one side of the political spectrum before the war might actually get people to listen to reason instead of refusing to hear it (and who can blame them) because of who its coming from.
ANd I dont really mean fuck iraq, but I do not see anything beneficial coming from our continued involvement there. It does seem to me that they have no taste for the sort of non religious democrasy that we are trying to forcefully impose on them.
and they do keep blowing eachother up. And i dont see how they are continually surprised that each massive religious demonstration is subsequently attacked. The largest single day death toll since the beggining of the war happened on the same day as katrina and it was from demonstrators trampling eachother because of a car bomb scare.
I do not clearly understand either sides motives. If the insurgency wants us out of the country, and then they will stop blowing up their own people, then we should probably fucking leave. I dont see how a shitload of americans with guns and tanks is supposed to STOP some kind of war. Thats not what we do. At best it seems like we are trying to kill them before they can kill eachother. So whats the fucking point?
Look man, all I'm saying is that it's a damn shame that it's her. Civil disobediance is most definitely a time honored tradition of protest. But it don't help when it looks like you're having the time of your life. A parapalegic soldier being carried off by police, for example, probably would have been a bit more moving.
I hear what you are saying, but a large part of what IS effective here is that it's a middle-aged mom, as sad as this sounds people don't want to SEE parapalegic soldiers, they can't relate, won't relate to that. Plus, there is always some right-wing-host talking trash about lefty opprtunism when photo ops like that are paraded.
I am not hopping on her bandwago, but I am really starting to see her value to the current push to get shit wrapped up in Iraq. The Bush camp has been seriously damaged by Sheehan's campaign no matter who likes her or how she is portrayed, and that's the facts. This is now part of the news daily, and if Katrina hasn't pushed it aside, it's here to stay for a while. And I am glad.
Comments
noted. my bad.
I told you I shoulda stayed out of this thread
I've seen a fair amount of video of her on the news and she seems genuine to me. One of the problems (at least as I see it) is that a lot of what constitutes the "traditional" anti-war left these days (and has the apparatus in place to mobilize for demonstrations) contains a fringe element that carries with it the stigma of the ultra-left, as well as the kind of identity politics that has polarized this country to such an extent. It's almost impossible for the mainstream media to separate Sheehan's actions with those of the most extreme people in her current orbit.
The left has been so pummelled in the last 25 years (in all it's traditional aspects) that it's going to take some time for it to regain it's once healthy "middle ground". I've been going to demonstrations since I was a kid, and I've seen the Mao-ist dreadlock window smashers, but I've also seen all kinds of grass roots social justice organizations, as well as lots of "normal" folks (i.e. not specifically politically radical) who have been moved by events they see as contradictory to the nature of what America is supposed to be like, and have come out to make their voices heard. You don't often see these people on the news, and there are a lot of them. I think Cindy Sheehan is one of them.
I don't think her demeanor at the protest says anything bad about her motives or anything like that.
What I find so troubling is that so often (and especially recently) when there is a stand against the powers that be (for whatever issue), some of our spokespersons tend to send out an image that doesn't resonate at all with middle america or the people that we hope to convert. We aren't careful enough about how our message will be received by those whom we seek to persuade.
We need to be strategic about how we do things. Images of Howard Dean yelling all kinds of insulting language about Bush (granted, most of us probably agree with him), for example, only further alienate those people who we need in order to change things. What they see is a red faced maniac hurling insults, and in effect the message gets lost behind the image.
What we really need is.. gasp.. our own Karl Rove.
Like I said, I'm not here to debate. If this is what Cindy needs to do, to help her deal with her sons death, more power to her. All I really knew was that he had signed up before 9/11 of his own free will, hoping to help people while in uniform.
I just hope that where ever Casey is, he's at peace now.
actually, if it there is anyone that was planted to divide and conquer, it was ANSWER.
i mean, this is a group that refused to let Rabbi Michael Lerner (colleague of Cornell West's and tireless peace activist with a devoted following) speak at their events because he supports the existence of Israel. American Jews have always been on the forefront of progressive causes and anti-war movements, and ANSWER did a lot to alienate them. Hence divide and conquer.
Also if you fish around on their website you come up with some disturbing stuff. Vitamin wasn't bullshitting: they support North Korea's dictator, supported Saddam etc.
so in my opinion they were just as if not more divisive than Sheehan.
I hear what you are saying, but a large part of what IS effective here is that it's a middle-aged mom, as sad as this sounds people don't want to SEE parapalegic soldiers, they can't relate, won't relate to that. Plus, there is always some right-wing-host talking trash about lefty opprtunism when photo ops like that are paraded.
I am not hopping on her bandwago, but I am really starting to see her value to the current push to get shit wrapped up in Iraq. The Bush camp has been seriously damaged by Sheehan's campaign no matter who likes her or how she is portrayed, and that's the facts. This is now part of the news daily, and if Katrina hasn't pushed it aside, it's here to stay for a while. And I am glad.