Is it fair to say that people are more upset about what the record did than the record itself? Harvey's criticisms are primarily about white kids who latched onto it and almost nothing about the album itself.
Do you review a piece of work because of the ripples it caused or based on it's content? Serious question.
Didn't Screw's works cause a bunch of knucklehead white kids with computers to slow down rap songs with no understanding of how to do it in an enjoyable manner? Should he be blamed?
Does Nevermind suck because of its ripples? Don't worry, I'm not putting those two albums in the same category, but one could probably argue that Endtroducing is the nevermind of a small niche genre.
Also, the explanation of how music is only good if it is played outside of the house is interesting/amusing? I'm not really trying to pick on you Harv, but you came out swinging and then back paddled several times and said it was a good album and belongs on the list. I thoroughly enjoy your passion on this board, but don't always understand why you're so driven to dismiss certain things.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Controller_7 said:
Is it fair to say that people are more upset about what the record did than the record itself? Harvey's criticisms are primarily about white kids who latched onto it and almost nothing about the album itself.
People, including myself, saying they no longer ever listen to the album speaks volumes about the album itself. And it's not about overplaying it when it was released either. For instance, I overplayed Illmatic when it was released, yet I still listen to it regularly today.
Do you review a piece of work because of the ripples it caused or based on it's content? Serious question.
Am I reviewing the album here? Or am I reviewing how certain people make too much of a big deal over the album? It's 2 separate conversations really.
But on another hand, yes, if an album attracts an ultimately annoying audience, then that is indeed a reflection of the album IMO.
Didn't Screw's works cause a bunch of knucklehead white kids with computers to slow down rap songs with no understanding of how to do it in an enjoyable manner? Should he be blamed?
No, they should be blamed. Just like here, I'm not condemning Shadow's work as much as I'm saying that his stans need to chill the fuck out and gain some perspective already.
Does Nevermind suck because of its ripples? Don't worry, I'm not putting those two albums in the same category, but one could probably argue that Endtroducing is the nevermind of a small niche genre.
I always liked Bleach better than Nevermind.
Also, the explanation of how music is only good if it is played outside of the house is interesting/amusing? I'm not really trying to pick on you Harv, but you came out swinging and then back paddled several times and said it was a good album and belongs on the list. I thoroughly enjoy your passion on this board, but don't always understand why you're so driven to dismiss certain things.
A great hip-hop album to me gets played at home, in the ride, in the club, everywhere. I was just commenting how Endtroducing was kinda limited in that aspect...and thus maybe not what people were making it out to be. I mean, cool, you could hear it at The Gap. But wouldn't that be a knock on the album, rather than a complement? If it fit right in with Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette, is that really good for a hip-hop album to be?
And I did say it was a good album that deserves to be on the list...based on how much we've talked about Shadow on this site over the years alone. The cratedigging thing definitely factors in here. I'm just saying all along, it's not the groundbreaking goodness, ala an all-time classic that some make it out to be.
Shit, just to bring up another album that's been talked about in length on here this past week...Boxcar Sessions. I like the production on that way better than that on Endtroducing. I could actually say the same for about 100 rap albums from that same era...which leads us back to my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different (all samples, no rappers. Actually, who are we kidding? ----> DONE BY FACELESS WHITE DUDE) to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
So does discussing it at length strengthen the reasoning behind why it's on the SoulStrut Top 100, or lessen it? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
batmon said:
Boy In The Plastic Bubble Rap.
Tod Lubitch spits pure fiya. Kind of ironic because of how easily plastic melts
I think I'm going to start referring to Harv as "The Biased God".
I still enjoy Midnight, Building Steam, Changeling, and Number Song a lot. WDYSLL is great but better listened to off Premptive Strike.
Some of the stuttered drums sound dated, but I still enjoy them that way.
The independent, loner aspect of this album always spoke to me too, since I'm pretty introverted and socially anxious. It was music with soul and mood and texture and a whole bunch of other things that I couldn't imagine creating on my own. So when I heard it, and found out about how it was made, and began to deconstruct it... My appreciation for it only increased. And it sparked the idea in my mind (as I imagine it did for many people) that I could make music like this. Whoever compared it to prog or psych stuff was bang on.
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Midnight in a Perfect World is indeed a perfect track btw.
I'm actually a bigger fan of Rjd2's Deadringer. But yea, Endtroducing had a big influence on Deadringer as well a slew of other wannabes that followed soon after.
my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different...to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Since its release I have witnessed plenty of people (young, old, black, white, brown, whatever) get turned on this LP and really respond to it well. And they weren't record heads either. It is a good record for many reasons.
I did not partake in voting during top 100, but Endtroducing would have been a top 10 for me. The Private Press is right up there too.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
james said:
HarveyCanal said:
my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different...to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
I get what you are saying about fashion. But really, if the album still banged, it would still be banged. Period, end of story. At no point ever have I rated Endtrodcing above Boxcar Sessions nor Tops Drops. Nor have I ever felt the need to explain/convince that Boxcar and Tops were/are both amazing pieces of rap music, beyond just saying yes, of course both are brilliant. The music speaks for itself and stands the test of time. Maybe Endtroducing will come back into vogue at some point. That's fine by me. But we'll just have to wait to see if that actually ever happens, won't we?
And as far as race goes, white people are the ones still hanging onto Endtroducing as their mythical hero. I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic. It's just some of us white dudes who didn't get into hip-hop beats/production/cratedigging by way of Shadow don't feel the need to eternally lionize him for it. As far as white dudes in hip-hop from that time, I'd much rather talk about the superior greatness of Mike Dean productions. Both then and now. Better yet, I'd be even happier just listening to Mike Dean productions and letting the music speak for itself.
You guys still talking that nonsense? This is a White America/Euroman (with an Asian or two) digging in the obscure crates stylez. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Same way, I don't get 90% of the syrup-drinkin', pistol whippin, indo-smoking teenage music that harvey and others gets off on. I think the first time, dudes were sweating this was precisely around when dudes were in their late teens. Same shit. Different genre. Let it go, HarvMON. If dudes wanna praise this as one of the top 10 electronica albums in URB magazine, then it is what it is. Why yall madd?
You guys still talking that nonsense? This is a White America/Euroman (with an Asian or two) digging in the obscure crates stylez. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Same way, I don't get 90% of the syrup-drinkin', pistol whippin, indo-smoking teenage music that harvey and others gets off on. I think the first time, dudes were sweating this was precisely around when dudes were in their late teens. Same shit. Different genre. Let it go, HarvMON. If dudes wanna praise this as one of the top 10 electronica albums in URB magazine, then it is what it is. Why yall madd?
So your admitting that it has made an impression on a certain demographic and isnt canonized by another, whether its by age or cultural background.
The Pistol Whippin demographic isnt seein this shit the way your "OMG I cant find the time do my laundry" Brown sneaker wearin' cats.
I'd play this shit at house parties and ladies would be on some WTF shit.
Do You Party?
Its not that hard to understand that as great & influential this album was it wasnt touching certain demographics.
And get my entire shit right.....
I enjoy PPress here and there. Its got some joints on there, but Endtro was a game shifter.
PP has actually "aged" better. I tried listening to Endtro recently and it was hard to get through
I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic.
I don't think this is true.
This archetype you're talking about--the white dude holding up DJ Shadow as the end-all be-all--might have been for real in the first several years after Endtroducing, back when white rap nerds were more desperate and more information-poor, but we are now are in post-internet, post-random-rap-vogue, post-regional-rap-vogue, post-ego-trip, post-Cocaine-Blunts, post-Fader, post-Pitchfork, post-everything days and times, we are information-saturated to the gills, the obscure has become commonplace, and that archetype hasn't had any real currency for at least five years, maybe closer to ten.
I mean, really--which sounds more like a white music nerd trying to get cool points in 2013:
"DJ Shadow is the king of crate-digging, man! Best that ever did it! Endtroducing is a masterpiece!"
or
"Pfft--fuck DJ Shadow, man. I actually prefer the work of the criminally slept-upon Mike Dean."
?
I of course support your right to dislike and be unimpressed by Endtroducing, but your contextual justifications for doing so are sounding awfully mechanical here. And trying to cast yourself as some kind of rebel for disliking what is such an unfashionable record is kind of a weird look, and makes it seem as if your perspective has less to do with the record and more to do with the image you have of yourself as Not The Kind Of Guy Who Likes Endtroducing.
And as far as race goes, white people are the ones still hanging onto Endtroducing as their mythical hero. I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic. .
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
Not sure why you've posted liner notes from Entroducing to justify the idea that The Outsider is trying to appeal to the hood? Different albums, mang.
LOL Harvey is white? Man I thought I had the whole white librul guilt thing down pat, but it looks like I need to step my game up!
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
The key thing about Endtroducing is this; it isn't rap music. Therefore it makes little sense to claim that it doesn't stand up against Boxcar Sessions or Somethin' Serious or whatever as rap music - why should it? If Endtroducing succeeds, it does so on its own terms; informed by hip-hop (obviously), very clearly the product of one rap super-nerd's singular obsession, and ultimately just as individual an expression as any rapper's lyrics.
I have my theories about why both the non-specialist music media and audiences beyond the usual demographic for rap music were so enthusiastic in their embrace of "trip-hop", but I'm not going to spend any time on them here. I will say, though, that holding an artist responsible for who or what their audience happens to be is for mugs. It's snobbish and elitist, and it has nothing to do with the music on any meaningful level. As far as I can see, Shadow made the record he wanted to make - quite possibly the exact record he wanted to make - for no-one but himself, and the fact it ended up as hip stoner muzak or a soundtrack to help sell chinos and pocket tees or whatever is no fault of his. It's like Kurt Cobain bitching about how infuriated he was once he realised that Nevermind was selling to precisely the sort of people who used to beat him up in high school, and how it wasn't made for people like them. Well, too bad - once it's out there, where it lands and who embraces it are things completely beyond your control. You can make music with a certain audience in mind, or you can try, but attempting to second-guess the market is a risky business. For every copy of Endtroducing that hasn't been played in years by somebody on here, there are hundreds of albums that shamelessly aped its aesthetic which have probably languished unplayed for a fucksight longer. Those that didn't end up as landfill, that is.
Another flaw with some of the counter-arguments here is the idea that classic status and broad appeal (and, it seems, a very rigid idea of what those things mean at that) go hand-in-hand. I don't know that this is the case, nor even that it matters. I've no particular enthusiasm for making an "Endtroducing = Certified Classic" argument, but I don't think it'd be difficult. Much easier to assert, as well as harder to argue against, is that it is/was a very significant record - it made an impact in a way that broadly similar records hadn't previously managed to do, and its enduring influence is probably most easily detected in genres other than hip-hop (this is equally true of Nation Of Millions, btw). Certainly, it opened up certain areas of music to people whose awareness of them might previously have been somewhat limited. These are important, worthwhile functions for music to perform, and Endtroducing performs them well enough to be judged on those terms, equally as much as how well it satisfies some arbitrary definition of "classic".
Entroducing got a double whammy what with it being the first diggers record to hit the mainstream b/w being released on Mo Wax when it was briefly the hippest label on the planet. Shadow probably did more for the perception of the DJ as original musician than any other artist in that decade and totally deserves a top spot on the Soulstrut GOAT list That said, I've always wanted to like this more but generally it just makes me reach for my Muro mixtapes.
I mean, really--which sounds more like a white music nerd trying to get cool points in 2013:
"DJ Shadow is the king of crate-digging, man! Best that ever did it! Endtroducing is a masterpiece!"
or
"Pfft--fuck DJ Shadow, man. I actually prefer the work of the criminally slept-upon Mike Dean."
?
I of course support your right to dislike and be unimpressed by Endtroducing, but your contextual justifications for doing so are sounding awfully mechanical here. And trying to cast yourself as some kind of rebel for disliking what is such an unfashionable record is kind of a weird look, and makes it seem as if your perspective has less to do with the record and more to do with the image you have of yourself as Not The Kind Of Guy Who Likes Endtroducing.
The whole "white nerd"-argument holds very little water for the reasons you mentioned. If someone doesn't like the album, fine - explain why on terms of its content....you know, talk about the music.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
james said:
HarveyCanal said:
I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic.
I don't think this is true.
This archetype you're talking about--the white dude holding up DJ Shadow as the end-all be-all--might have been for real in the first several years after Endtroducing, back when white rap nerds were more desperate and more information-poor, but we are now are in post-internet, post-random-rap-vogue, post-regional-rap-vogue, post-ego-trip, post-Cocaine-Blunts, post-Fader, post-Pitchfork, post-everything days and times, we are information-saturated to the gills, the obscure has become commonplace, and that archetype hasn't had any real currency for at least five years, maybe closer to ten.
I mean, really--which sounds more like a white music nerd trying to get cool points in 2013:
"DJ Shadow is the king of crate-digging, man! Best that ever did it! Endtroducing is a masterpiece!"
or
"Pfft--fuck DJ Shadow, man. I actually prefer the work of the criminally slept-upon Mike Dean."
?
I of course support your right to dislike and be unimpressed by Endtroducing, but your contextual justifications for doing so are sounding awfully mechanical here. And trying to cast yourself as some kind of rebel for disliking what is such an unfashionable record is kind of a weird look, and makes it seem as if your perspective has less to do with the record and more to do with the image you have of yourself as Not The Kind Of Guy Who Likes Endtroducing.
Average white dude I know still loves DJ Shadow and wouldn't know Mike Dean from a hole in the wall.
Maybe among critics, or members of the digging "community" or whatever, Shadow has gone out of favor. But for causal listener and historical fan of A Tribe Called Quest and the Pharcyde and all the other typical whatnot from those days, Endtroducing is welcomed as ever.
I'm constantly amazed going out on boats on Lake Travis here in Austin during the summer and hearing how that generic breaks, cross-breed of acid jazz and trip-hop styled, sometimes-rap music is still championed like the water itself. You literally can't go 15 minutes without hearing Charlie 2na, I swear.
I don't really put too much stock in what the internet is saying in comparison to real life. My bad, I guess.
I still think the number song and midnight in a perfect world are rockin' as well as a lot of preemptive strike and various singles and tracks on his other albums.
I also agree with whoever said that dude's career trajectory was in reverse and it's really only been downhill from endroducing with brainfreeze and product placement being the exceptions.
I don't look at this stuff as "traditional hip hop"[whatever that means] and lumping it in with anything but steinski's lessons is kind of unrealistic and short sighted.I remember the goth crowd embracing shadow because of the dark vibes.
As for it being"hood" or "black enough" for Harvey,who really gives a fuck what he or anyone else thinks,the choice is yours and yours alone.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
As far as the music itself, I don't care that it's not catered to the hood or whatever. I was going nuts to an old REM tape in my truck this morning. The whole idea that I'm coming from a stance of deliberately trying to make myself look hip with my opinions is false. I'm too old for that bs.
The album is just kinda boring...which is why you no longer ever listen to it.
Comments
Do you review a piece of work because of the ripples it caused or based on it's content? Serious question.
Didn't Screw's works cause a bunch of knucklehead white kids with computers to slow down rap songs with no understanding of how to do it in an enjoyable manner? Should he be blamed?
Does Nevermind suck because of its ripples? Don't worry, I'm not putting those two albums in the same category, but one could probably argue that Endtroducing is the nevermind of a small niche genre.
Also, the explanation of how music is only good if it is played outside of the house is interesting/amusing? I'm not really trying to pick on you Harv, but you came out swinging and then back paddled several times and said it was a good album and belongs on the list. I thoroughly enjoy your passion on this board, but don't always understand why you're so driven to dismiss certain things.
People, including myself, saying they no longer ever listen to the album speaks volumes about the album itself. And it's not about overplaying it when it was released either. For instance, I overplayed Illmatic when it was released, yet I still listen to it regularly today.
Am I reviewing the album here? Or am I reviewing how certain people make too much of a big deal over the album? It's 2 separate conversations really.
But on another hand, yes, if an album attracts an ultimately annoying audience, then that is indeed a reflection of the album IMO.
No, they should be blamed. Just like here, I'm not condemning Shadow's work as much as I'm saying that his stans need to chill the fuck out and gain some perspective already.
I always liked Bleach better than Nevermind.
A great hip-hop album to me gets played at home, in the ride, in the club, everywhere. I was just commenting how Endtroducing was kinda limited in that aspect...and thus maybe not what people were making it out to be. I mean, cool, you could hear it at The Gap. But wouldn't that be a knock on the album, rather than a complement? If it fit right in with Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette, is that really good for a hip-hop album to be?
And I did say it was a good album that deserves to be on the list...based on how much we've talked about Shadow on this site over the years alone. The cratedigging thing definitely factors in here. I'm just saying all along, it's not the groundbreaking goodness, ala an all-time classic that some make it out to be.
Shit, just to bring up another album that's been talked about in length on here this past week...Boxcar Sessions. I like the production on that way better than that on Endtroducing. I could actually say the same for about 100 rap albums from that same era...which leads us back to my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different (all samples, no rappers. Actually, who are we kidding? ----> DONE BY FACELESS WHITE DUDE) to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
Now, deal with it.
speaking with your vote > lengthy explanations
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
Boy In The Plastic Bubble Rap.
So does discussing it at length strengthen the reasoning behind why it's on the SoulStrut Top 100, or lessen it? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
Tod Lubitch spits pure fiya. Kind of ironic because of how easily plastic melts
I still enjoy Midnight, Building Steam, Changeling, and Number Song a lot. WDYSLL is great but better listened to off Premptive Strike.
Some of the stuttered drums sound dated, but I still enjoy them that way.
The independent, loner aspect of this album always spoke to me too, since I'm pretty introverted and socially anxious. It was music with soul and mood and texture and a whole bunch of other things that I couldn't imagine creating on my own. So when I heard it, and found out about how it was made, and began to deconstruct it... My appreciation for it only increased. And it sparked the idea in my mind (as I imagine it did for many people) that I could make music like this. Whoever compared it to prog or psych stuff was bang on.
But I'm slso white. So... I guess I'm a Stan?
Its not as huge as your Private Mind Gardens make it out to be.
Midnight in a Perfect World is indeed a perfect track btw.
I'm actually a bigger fan of Rjd2's Deadringer. But yea, Endtroducing had a big influence on Deadringer as well a slew of other wannabes that followed soon after.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
i'll try to revisit it
you gotta love the cover!
I did not partake in voting during top 100, but Endtroducing would have been a top 10 for me. The Private Press is right up there too.
I get what you are saying about fashion. But really, if the album still banged, it would still be banged. Period, end of story. At no point ever have I rated Endtrodcing above Boxcar Sessions nor Tops Drops. Nor have I ever felt the need to explain/convince that Boxcar and Tops were/are both amazing pieces of rap music, beyond just saying yes, of course both are brilliant. The music speaks for itself and stands the test of time. Maybe Endtroducing will come back into vogue at some point. That's fine by me. But we'll just have to wait to see if that actually ever happens, won't we?
And as far as race goes, white people are the ones still hanging onto Endtroducing as their mythical hero. I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic. It's just some of us white dudes who didn't get into hip-hop beats/production/cratedigging by way of Shadow don't feel the need to eternally lionize him for it. As far as white dudes in hip-hop from that time, I'd much rather talk about the superior greatness of Mike Dean productions. Both then and now. Better yet, I'd be even happier just listening to Mike Dean productions and letting the music speak for itself.
You right. Definitely not on some Whitney Houston type "permeating the hood". LOL
Batmon, quoted as saying "Endtro was a game shifter". Is this a win for Team Josh?
So your admitting that it has made an impression on a certain demographic and isnt canonized by another, whether its by age or cultural background.
The Pistol Whippin demographic isnt seein this shit the way your "OMG I cant find the time do my laundry" Brown sneaker wearin' cats.
I'd play this shit at house parties and ladies would be on some WTF shit.
Do You Party?
Its not that hard to understand that as great & influential this album was it wasnt touching certain demographics.
And get my entire shit right.....
This archetype you're talking about--the white dude holding up DJ Shadow as the end-all be-all--might have been for real in the first several years after Endtroducing, back when white rap nerds were more desperate and more information-poor, but we are now are in post-internet, post-random-rap-vogue, post-regional-rap-vogue, post-ego-trip, post-Cocaine-Blunts, post-Fader, post-Pitchfork, post-everything days and times, we are information-saturated to the gills, the obscure has become commonplace, and that archetype hasn't had any real currency for at least five years, maybe closer to ten.
I mean, really--which sounds more like a white music nerd trying to get cool points in 2013:
"DJ Shadow is the king of crate-digging, man! Best that ever did it! Endtroducing is a masterpiece!"
or
"Pfft--fuck DJ Shadow, man. I actually prefer the work of the criminally slept-upon Mike Dean."
?
I of course support your right to dislike and be unimpressed by Endtroducing, but your contextual justifications for doing so are sounding awfully mechanical here. And trying to cast yourself as some kind of rebel for disliking what is such an unfashionable record is kind of a weird look, and makes it seem as if your perspective has less to do with the record and more to do with the image you have of yourself as Not The Kind Of Guy Who Likes Endtroducing.
"The lady doth protest too much methinks"
Not sure why you've posted liner notes from Entroducing to justify the idea that The Outsider is trying to appeal to the hood? Different albums, mang.
I have my theories about why both the non-specialist music media and audiences beyond the usual demographic for rap music were so enthusiastic in their embrace of "trip-hop", but I'm not going to spend any time on them here. I will say, though, that holding an artist responsible for who or what their audience happens to be is for mugs. It's snobbish and elitist, and it has nothing to do with the music on any meaningful level. As far as I can see, Shadow made the record he wanted to make - quite possibly the exact record he wanted to make - for no-one but himself, and the fact it ended up as hip stoner muzak or a soundtrack to help sell chinos and pocket tees or whatever is no fault of his. It's like Kurt Cobain bitching about how infuriated he was once he realised that Nevermind was selling to precisely the sort of people who used to beat him up in high school, and how it wasn't made for people like them. Well, too bad - once it's out there, where it lands and who embraces it are things completely beyond your control. You can make music with a certain audience in mind, or you can try, but attempting to second-guess the market is a risky business. For every copy of Endtroducing that hasn't been played in years by somebody on here, there are hundreds of albums that shamelessly aped its aesthetic which have probably languished unplayed for a fucksight longer. Those that didn't end up as landfill, that is.
Another flaw with some of the counter-arguments here is the idea that classic status and broad appeal (and, it seems, a very rigid idea of what those things mean at that) go hand-in-hand. I don't know that this is the case, nor even that it matters. I've no particular enthusiasm for making an "Endtroducing = Certified Classic" argument, but I don't think it'd be difficult. Much easier to assert, as well as harder to argue against, is that it is/was a very significant record - it made an impact in a way that broadly similar records hadn't previously managed to do, and its enduring influence is probably most easily detected in genres other than hip-hop (this is equally true of Nation Of Millions, btw). Certainly, it opened up certain areas of music to people whose awareness of them might previously have been somewhat limited. These are important, worthwhile functions for music to perform, and Endtroducing performs them well enough to be judged on those terms, equally as much as how well it satisfies some arbitrary definition of "classic".
The whole "white nerd"-argument holds very little water for the reasons you mentioned. If someone doesn't like the album, fine - explain why on terms of its content....you know, talk about the music.
Average white dude I know still loves DJ Shadow and wouldn't know Mike Dean from a hole in the wall.
Maybe among critics, or members of the digging "community" or whatever, Shadow has gone out of favor. But for causal listener and historical fan of A Tribe Called Quest and the Pharcyde and all the other typical whatnot from those days, Endtroducing is welcomed as ever.
I'm constantly amazed going out on boats on Lake Travis here in Austin during the summer and hearing how that generic breaks, cross-breed of acid jazz and trip-hop styled, sometimes-rap music is still championed like the water itself. You literally can't go 15 minutes without hearing Charlie 2na, I swear.
I don't really put too much stock in what the internet is saying in comparison to real life. My bad, I guess.
I also agree with whoever said that dude's career trajectory was in reverse and it's really only been downhill from endroducing with brainfreeze and product placement being the exceptions.
I don't look at this stuff as "traditional hip hop"[whatever that means] and lumping it in with anything but steinski's lessons is kind of unrealistic and short sighted.I remember the goth crowd embracing shadow because of the dark vibes.
As for it being"hood" or "black enough" for Harvey,who really gives a fuck what he or anyone else thinks,the choice is yours and yours alone.
The album is just kinda boring...which is why you no longer ever listen to it.