ummm....how are you dudes defining a "here my dear" hip-hop album again? i thought it was the: meh/average album that gets more love for the back story than the actual music.
Not sure if Pauls Boutique fits that bill, because it's pretty hard to argue that the album isn't the Beasties "Whats going on..." sonically compared to all their other stuff. Even if you hate the Beasties, its hard to not think that it is one of their best albums compared to all the rest of their catalog. Or am I just drinking the coolaid
Black Bastards seems to fit the bill a little better, but i have a feeling this thread will just devolve into dudes saying which albums are more popular than they deserve to be. Not really that the question being posed is about though right?
btw, I can't think of anything, but this is an intriguing question.
but i have a feeling this thread will just devolve into dudes saying which albums are more popular than they deserve to be. Not really that the question being posed is about though right?.
Extremely insular, commercial flop, 'disappointing' follow up, record company were pissed, disowned by band members, no hit singles ('What's Next?' didn't really fit on the album, nor did it sell well anyway), actually has strong production and superior song-writing etc.
...Here, My Dear's most unique and compelling aspect is the personal back-story...
Agreed. I can't think of any Hip Hop LP that (a)Was a parting-gift/divorce payment/'fuck you, I love you, tho' letter AND (b)was slept on but appreciated later for it's back story and music.
Someone on here said "like water for chocolate" and that could be the closest to fit my understanding of what a 'here my dear' hiphop record would be.
Kanye's trajectory seems to suggest that he will make it eventually...and that annoys me.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Guzzo said:
HarveyCanal said:
Some other candidates...
This is a joke right?
How is it a joke? Those are albums that had marginal audiences when they dropped. And since then they've come to be known as widespread classics that connoisseurs frequently cite as blueprints.
Maybe I'm missing the Here My Dear equation y'all got going, because I'm one who doesn't much care about the album's back-story. I just like its music, despite never listening to it until Three 6 and UGK sampled from it. So to me, I simply view Here My Dear as an album that was too ahead of its time when it first dropped to be appreciated at that time, only to be picked up later by those of the connoisseur variety.
And to me, Twista and Project Pat fit that mold, at least to a certain degree.
this could be it. backstory, subroc's death, casual rap listeners wouldn't know it at the time.
yeah....
Did this even come out commercially?
Wasnt it held back and bootlegged and then released?
Not commercially, no...
Doom gave me an Elektra promotional tape with track names and graphics on it that came in a generic promo tape sleeve back in 94, so I know they exist.
There was a video for What a Ni%$e Know? that never saw the light of day too.
Damn, there was a video for "What a Ni**a Know"? I just remember copping the maxi-single and lovin it. There was I believe an article in the Source around the 93-94 time frame on DOOM aka Zeb Love X about the album and what happened to his brother Subroc. He stated how he "felt like a piece of shit".
Yeah it's sits in an Elektra storage unit somewhere. The video was half the original mix and half the remix.
I remember one scene was Doom getting chased by some cops then turning around and throwing a 40oz at them.
the Wife = White Fans / Critics who adopted Rebirth of Slick
commercial failure and, to those who dumped a Grammy on them for their first album, a disappointing followup, but amongst collectors a well respected album. billboard jazzy oodle bop to powerful black nationalism.
but i have a feeling this thread will just devolve into dudes saying which albums are more popular than they deserve to be. Not really that the question being posed is about though right?.
so far thats what its become.
Why I responded the way I did.
Something boring and practical like the sheer number of releases now compared to when HMD came out means reaction time will be delayed. This growth in appreciation and being able to see a release after time and space has passed in order to appreciate it in a wider rap/historical/musical context applies to oodles of rap records imo. Even taking into consideration factors like shifts in popularity of certain regions/coasts.
batmon said:
The slept on album that gained appreciation years later. Its wasnt even a critics choice type joint.
Cats use it as a badge of "in the know" later on.
When Here, My Dear was released in the end of 1978, it was panned by consumers and critics alike, who called the album "bizarre" and "un-commercial".
I think Paul's Boutique is a good suggestion. It was a critical flop at first and deemed un-commercial. It did go gold within a few months of its release and goodness knows the nerds were all over it, but as far its initial cool reception warming to Top 'this and that' Lists, it's a good one.
but i have a feeling this thread will just devolve into dudes saying which albums are more popular than they deserve to be. Not really that the question being posed is about though right?.
so far thats what its become.
Why I responded the way I did.
Something boring and practical like the sheer number of releases now compared to when HMD came out means reaction time will be delayed. This growth in appreciation and being able to see a release after time and space has passed in order to appreciate it in a wider rap/historical/musical context applies to oodles of rap records imo. Even taking into consideration factors like shifts in popularity of certain regions/coasts.
batmon said:
The slept on album that gained appreciation years later. Its wasnt even a critics choice type joint.
Cats use it as a badge of "in the know" later on.
When Here, My Dear was released in the end of 1978, it was panned by consumers and critics alike, who called the album "bizarre" and "un-commercial".
I think Paul's Boutique is a good suggestion. It was a critical flop at first and deemed un-commercial. It did go gold within a few months of its release and goodness knows the nerds were all over it, but as far its initial cool reception warming to Top 'this and that' Lists, it's a good one.
I dunno...The Beastie Boys has so much heat on them at the time, that cats still copped that album after Licensed To Ill.
Shit...I heard the album first through a Rockist frat brother.
It didnt burn up the late night Hip Hop mix shows though, the way other albums were.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Hey Ladies was too big a single. And then it only took like a year and a half for PB to be rediscovered and embraced by fratboys all across the land.
the Wife = White Fans / Critics who adopted Rebirth of Slick
Fucking gold.
Having a metaphor for 'the wife' kinda opens it up a bit.
Could we consider De La Soul "Stakes is High" and 'the wife' would = Prince Paul? I'm not aware that bad blood had anything to do with "Stakes Is" being the first De La LP to NOT be produced by Prince Paul, but it was the first one without him, I think.
Regarding popularity...I can't recall how it was initially received amongst the sheeple. I always dug the shit out of it...it was truly my 'listening pleasure while [I was] doin [my] chores" BITD...sorry, I'll see myself out on that one.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
To me, an artist having a Here, My Dear in their catalog necessitates them first having a What's Going On. So I don't know about Big L and some of the others in this thread.
I'd disagree with Stakes Is High, because it's not cool to like that record. "Birth of complaint-rap" and all that shit. I'm still a crank, so I still ride for it, but I think it is, ironically (if predictably), on the outs with much of the same rap cognoscenti that it helped birth.
What's interesting/"interesting" to me is that, the way things operate these days (e.g. internet kids skipping the bedrock and heading straight to the Advanced D&D shit), I'm certain there's a considerable slice of folks coming up for whom Here, My Dear will represent their first serious engagement with Marvin. Crazy.
the Wife = White Fans / Critics who adopted Rebirth of Slick
Fucking gold.
Having a metaphor for 'the wife' kinda opens it up a bit.
Could we consider De La Soul "Stakes is High" and 'the wife' would = Prince Paul? I'm not aware that bad blood had anything to do with "Stakes Is" being the first De La LP to NOT be produced by Prince Paul, but it was the first one without him, I think.
Regarding popularity...I can't recall how it was initially received amongst the sheeple. I always dug the shit out of it...it was truly my 'listening pleasure while [I was] doin [my] chores" BITD...sorry, I'll see myself out on that one.
Right on.
See to reduce HMD to "a record that wasn't popular when it came out but was then discovered" is blaspheme. Aside from being a masterpiece, that record was literally thrown in his wife's face. It is more than a revenge record, it's a "here you want something? Take this muthafucka!" Of epic proportions. Any pick in this thread should at least be operating on a secondary level like that. Most, if not all of the records listed in this thread aspired to be good and then didn't hit the mark commercially, or never garnered commercial respect in the first place like Marvin PreHMD did. HMD aspired to be a dagger in the neck of a lady, a record company, maybe even his own career. I get the sense from the biographies I read that at that moment he truly did not give a fusk.
I feel that Blowout Comb brilliantly/disastrously alienated the sector of fans that built the group. and it was done on purpose.
To me, an artist having a Here, My Dear in their catalog necessitates them first having a What's Goin On. So I don't know about Big L and some of the others in this thread.
True indeed.
Here another "throw it out there" joint....
I wouldn't consider The Scheme Team album as some What's Goin On but doesnt Spirals have some cult heat?
And would u say dude was on some "other/next" shit before dudes were "expanding & exploring" other genres?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I found that the same people who liked Digable's first ALBUM, and not just the single alone, liked Blowout Combs as well.
And I don't think it's really been rediscovered in any significant way since then.
But that's not to completely shoot down your assertions either.
I think J Beez Wit The Remedy is more of a "we've done way too many drugs to have perspective" record more than an Eff You record.
In general I don't think hip-hop artists make classic Eff You records like HMD or Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music because deep down most hip hoppers want to make money and sell records. The only rappers who really don't care about selling records don't make records worth caring about.
I think J Beez Wit The Remedy is more of a "we've done way too many drugs to have perspective" record more than an Eff You record.
this
also, JBWTR isn't actually, like, a record. It's some of the Crazy Wisdom Masters project, where like some of the people were fired or walked off the project, others came in, Bill Laswell, and uh, drugs.
The story I think is that WB wanted the JBs to go in a new direction, more aggressive/hardcore, and they weren't trying to do that (although there were some experiments to that end, I guess) but they didn't instead make the record they made as a "fuck you", it was just the shit they were on.
Either way, JBWTR and CWM are both fucking messes.
I think J Beez Wit The Remedy is more of a "we've done way too many drugs to have perspective" record more than an Eff You record.
this
also, JBWTR isn't actually, like, a record. It's some of the Crazy Wisdom Masters project, where like some of the people were fired or walked off the project, others came in, Bill Laswell, and uh, drugs.
The story I think is that WB wanted the JBs to go in a new direction, more aggressive/hardcore, and they weren't trying to do that (although there were some experiments to that end, I guess) but they didn't instead make the record they made as a "fuck you", it was just the shit they were on.
Either way, JBWTR and CWM are both fucking messes.
I'm sure you guys are right. I was speaking more from my response to it as a listener than from any of the factual circumstances of its creation. Which I realize is perhaps not helping this thread at all. Like my man said, I was just throwing it out there.
(In a side note, the younger, triller james would have replaced the above's "Like my man said" with "Like your moms with her phone number".)
(In a side-side note: If there's not some shitty mix cd-r of MJ/Dirty South blends entitled Triller, there certainly should be.)
as far as actual "fuck you" records go, what about Gravediggaz' 1st? (has this already been mentioned? I haven't been following the thread closely enough)
Young Scrap just mentioned My Beautiful Veiny Dark Twisted Fantasy as well.
Comments
Not sure if Pauls Boutique fits that bill, because it's pretty hard to argue that the album isn't the Beasties "Whats going on..." sonically compared to all their other stuff. Even if you hate the Beasties, its hard to not think that it is one of their best albums compared to all the rest of their catalog. Or am I just drinking the coolaid
Black Bastards seems to fit the bill a little better, but i have a feeling this thread will just devolve into dudes saying which albums are more popular than they deserve to be. Not really that the question being posed is about though right?
btw, I can't think of anything, but this is an intriguing question.
so far thats what its become.
This is a joke right?
?
Extremely insular, commercial flop, 'disappointing' follow up, record company were pissed, disowned by band members, no hit singles ('What's Next?' didn't really fit on the album, nor did it sell well anyway), actually has strong production and superior song-writing etc.
Agreed. I can't think of any Hip Hop LP that (a)Was a parting-gift/divorce payment/'fuck you, I love you, tho' letter AND (b)was slept on but appreciated later for it's back story and music.
Someone on here said "like water for chocolate" and that could be the closest to fit my understanding of what a 'here my dear' hiphop record would be.
Kanye's trajectory seems to suggest that he will make it eventually...and that annoys me.
How is it a joke? Those are albums that had marginal audiences when they dropped. And since then they've come to be known as widespread classics that connoisseurs frequently cite as blueprints.
Maybe I'm missing the Here My Dear equation y'all got going, because I'm one who doesn't much care about the album's back-story. I just like its music, despite never listening to it until Three 6 and UGK sampled from it. So to me, I simply view Here My Dear as an album that was too ahead of its time when it first dropped to be appreciated at that time, only to be picked up later by those of the connoisseur variety.
And to me, Twista and Project Pat fit that mold, at least to a certain degree.
Yeah it's sits in an Elektra storage unit somewhere. The video was half the original mix and half the remix.
I remember one scene was Doom getting chased by some cops then turning around and throwing a 40oz at them.
the Wife = White Fans / Critics who adopted Rebirth of Slick
commercial failure and, to those who dumped a Grammy on them for their first album, a disappointing followup, but amongst collectors a well respected album. billboard jazzy oodle bop to powerful black nationalism.
I was more attracted to the slept-on/rediscovery factor.
That Twista joint was sort of a re-emergence for him. I think he was on the sidelines for a while before that.
Why I responded the way I did.
Something boring and practical like the sheer number of releases now compared to when HMD came out means reaction time will be delayed. This growth in appreciation and being able to see a release after time and space has passed in order to appreciate it in a wider rap/historical/musical context applies to oodles of rap records imo. Even taking into consideration factors like shifts in popularity of certain regions/coasts.
I think Paul's Boutique is a good suggestion. It was a critical flop at first and deemed un-commercial. It did go gold within a few months of its release and goodness knows the nerds were all over it, but as far its initial cool reception warming to Top 'this and that' Lists, it's a good one.
I dunno...The Beastie Boys has so much heat on them at the time, that cats still copped that album after Licensed To Ill.
Shit...I heard the album first through a Rockist frat brother.
It didnt burn up the late night Hip Hop mix shows though, the way other albums were.
There's def some truth to that.
I dont recall folks eating this album up when it dropped. There were no dominant singles. And overall its a shaky album.
But I dont think this has become some "cool" record to rep, yet Big L is on the list of dudes that got paid more attention to after passing.
Just thrown it out there.
Fucking gold.
Having a metaphor for 'the wife' kinda opens it up a bit.
Could we consider De La Soul "Stakes is High" and 'the wife' would = Prince Paul? I'm not aware that bad blood had anything to do with "Stakes Is" being the first De La LP to NOT be produced by Prince Paul, but it was the first one without him, I think.
Regarding popularity...I can't recall how it was initially received amongst the sheeple. I always dug the shit out of it...it was truly my 'listening pleasure while [I was] doin [my] chores" BITD...sorry, I'll see myself out on that one.
I'd disagree with Stakes Is High, because it's not cool to like that record. "Birth of complaint-rap" and all that shit. I'm still a crank, so I still ride for it, but I think it is, ironically (if predictably), on the outs with much of the same rap cognoscenti that it helped birth.
What's interesting/"interesting" to me is that, the way things operate these days (e.g. internet kids skipping the bedrock and heading straight to the Advanced D&D shit), I'm certain there's a considerable slice of folks coming up for whom Here, My Dear will represent their first serious engagement with Marvin. Crazy.
Right on.
See to reduce HMD to "a record that wasn't popular when it came out but was then discovered" is blaspheme. Aside from being a masterpiece, that record was literally thrown in his wife's face. It is more than a revenge record, it's a "here you want something? Take this muthafucka!" Of epic proportions. Any pick in this thread should at least be operating on a secondary level like that. Most, if not all of the records listed in this thread aspired to be good and then didn't hit the mark commercially, or never garnered commercial respect in the first place like Marvin PreHMD did. HMD aspired to be a dagger in the neck of a lady, a record company, maybe even his own career. I get the sense from the biographies I read that at that moment he truly did not give a fusk.
I feel that Blowout Comb brilliantly/disastrously alienated the sector of fans that built the group. and it was done on purpose.
True indeed.
Here another "throw it out there" joint....
I wouldn't consider The Scheme Team album as some What's Goin On but doesnt Spirals have some cult heat?
And would u say dude was on some "other/next" shit before dudes were "expanding & exploring" other genres?
And I don't think it's really been rediscovered in any significant way since then.
But that's not to completely shoot down your assertions either.
Yes! Much of the abstractness of that album was a big eff you to the record label, correct?
I think J Beez Wit The Remedy is more of a "we've done way too many drugs to have perspective" record more than an Eff You record.
In general I don't think hip-hop artists make classic Eff You records like HMD or Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music because deep down most hip hoppers want to make money and sell records. The only rappers who really don't care about selling records don't make records worth caring about.
Jaylib or Lootpack's Da Antidote.
Both of those LPs, espically Jaylib, didn't do very well till after the fact.
this
also, JBWTR isn't actually, like, a record. It's some of the Crazy Wisdom Masters project, where like some of the people were fired or walked off the project, others came in, Bill Laswell, and uh, drugs.
The story I think is that WB wanted the JBs to go in a new direction, more aggressive/hardcore, and they weren't trying to do that (although there were some experiments to that end, I guess) but they didn't instead make the record they made as a "fuck you", it was just the shit they were on.
Either way, JBWTR and CWM are both fucking messes.
(In a side note, the younger, triller james would have replaced the above's "Like my man said" with "Like your moms with her phone number".)
(In a side-side note: If there's not some shitty mix cd-r of MJ/Dirty South blends entitled Triller, there certainly should be.)
Young Scrap just mentioned My Beautiful Veiny Dark Twisted Fantasy as well.