All I know is that my wife is a grant administrator for a children's hospital. She is in the midst of a routine audit by the Feds because a majority of the grants are federal funds. This is still going on and it started at the beginning of August. If it takes 2 months to audit a children's hospital, how long will it take to audit the fed...checking the flow of money for say 30/40 years? So, people will just be shit outta luck for a decade or so until this is done? So how do we deal with the increase in crime and disease that this will cause? Hospitals will have to be shut down, police and fire departments will be severely cut back. Corporations will be able to go hog wild during this time polluting, ignoring labor laws, etc. I don't get why all funding has to stop while this years long process takes place.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I'm not really saying all government spending needs to freeze until the fed is not only audited but all snakes revealed by it are removed from office. I'm just saying that we shouldn't put our spending needs ahead of our morals. We've got to have a solid foundation to base our good deeds off of, thus career criminals should no longer be leading us.
I just find it odd that we are to ignore Paul's batshit leanings because his 2 decent ideas of auditing the fed and stopping the war machine but we are supposed to ignore the good the Obama administration has done to focus on drones and detention.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Ignore the good that Obama has done? I gotta see "the good" to begin with before I can move on to ignoring it.
So I guess lily Ledbetter, the ACA, bringing the troops home from Iraq, killing the tops of Al Queda, reversing the trend of losing 800,000 jobs a month, keeping the auto industry alive, cutting down the size of the buearocratic machine, slowing government spending down...yes he has done some good things. He is also the better, more intelligent choice over Mittens. The reality is the race is between Obama and Romney. Romney/Ryan scares the shit outta me. My life and the lives of my family and friends are ok under Obama, can't say they would be ok under Romney. Hence my choice.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Romney is a joke. But the illusion that Obama is any better, albeit slightly different, than Romney is just that.
Supporting either = LOSS.
But whatever, y'all already know what I think. Let's get back to music.
So I guess lily Ledbetter, the ACA, bringing the troops home from Iraq, killing the tops of Al Queda, reversing the trend of losing 800,000 jobs a month, keeping the auto industry alive, cutting down the size of the buearocratic machine, slowing government spending down...yes he has done some good things. He is also the better, more intelligent choice over Mittens. The reality is the race is between Obama and Romney. Romney/Ryan scares the shit outta me. My life and the lives of my family and friends are ok under Obama, can't say they would be ok under Romney. Hence my choice.
It boggles the mind that these are factual things that have been accomplished under this administration, things that Romney is on record as opposing vehemently, yet some are out there saying things like Obama and Romney are exactly the same, or that one is no better than the other.
Maybe these people don't think these things are "good"? They should say so, if that's the case.
But that's all you look at when it comes to Paul. You skip past the essential stuff that he's actually campaigning and acting on, just so you can dismiss him wholesale over some tiny idea of his that could never feasibly come to fruition.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
white_tea said:
HarveyCanal said:
But that's all you look at when it comes to Paul. You skip past the essential stuff that he's actually campaigning and acting on, just so you can dismiss him wholesale over some tiny idea of his that could never feasibly come to fruition.
Illegal unmanned drone attacks against civilians have not only come to fruition but have become routine.
Bailing out undeserving private enttites, both domestic and foreign, has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Taking a dump on the Constitution in order to deteriorate our civil liberties, all in the name of "protecting" us from CIA-trained "terrorists", has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Utilizing US soldiers in Afghanistan to manufacture opium for sale on the world market has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Selling guns to Mexican druglords has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
What is it again that I'm looking past in order to be bothered by such things?
Illegal unmanned drone attacks against civilians have not only come to fruition but have become routine.
Bailing out undeserving private enttites, both domestic and foreign, has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Taking a dump on the Constitution in order to deteriorate our civil liberties, all in the name of "protecting" us from CIA-trained "terrorists", has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Utilizing US soldiers in Afghanistan to manufacture opium for sale on the world market has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Selling guns to Mexican druglords has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
What is it again that I'm looking past in order to be bothered by such things?
1) The drone attacks are not against civilians. And they are not illegal. Why do you think they are?
2)It's not routine. Why do you think it is? Does someone really need to post a list of all the industries/companies that have not been bailed out in the past 250 years? And why do you want (possibly) millions of your fellow Americans to be out of work, when it's preventable, which could also cause a drag on the rest of the economy? Maybe even costing you your job? This is some serious, "I got mine, fuck you" BS.
3) I'll grant you this one.
4)I call bullshit on your Afghanistan claim.
5) It may be routine, but it's routine from private citizens in places like Arizona, and yep, Texas. Not routine for the feds, at least not unless it's part of a criminal sting operation. Why are you against that?
4 out of 5 claims you make are false.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
No, claiming that Obama has, singlehandedly or otherwise, saved the US auto industry is FALSE.
But yeah, since we are all now making more than a livable wage from newly created public works jobs where we use solar-powered light sabers as our tools, I shouldn't concern myself with Somalian babies being blown up by robots.
No, claiming that Obama has, singlehandedly or otherwise, saved the US auto industry is FALSE.
But yeah, since we are all now making more than a livable wage from newly created public works jobs where we use solar-powered light sabers as our tools, I shouldn't concern myself with Somalian babies being blown up by robots.
If you want to avoid providing support for your assertions, feel free. Fact remains, 4 out 5 of the things you listed are incorrect. You can't back them up, so you create a strawman about how Obama "didn't singlehandedly or otherwise, save the US auto industry", which no one here claims. edit- at least not the singlehandedly part.
Also, public sector jobs have decreased under Obama.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
If you don't think drones killing 50 civilians in order to take out 2 "terrorists" isn't a problem, I can't help you.
If you aren't familiar with the Obama's administration role in the Fast and Furious scandal, I can't help you.
If you see no problem with giving out trillions in no interest "loans" to unspecificed private enttites overseas, I can't help you.
If you want to dismiss reports of US soldiers actively helping along/protecting opium production in Afghanistan, I can't help you.
Also, Hook_up did cite the saving of the US auto industry by Obama in this thread.
And sorry, but the size of the federal government, while a concern of mine, doesn't fucking matter one iota if whether big or small it continues with its criminal ways.
It's appalling that the great citizens of an economic and military superpower, and supposedly the "freest country in the world", are in fact only free to have the choice between a fail and a fake.
And it is incredible that intelligent dudes like BV remain seemingly unjaded by this, and are energised enough to want to defend or support either candidate in the race.
It's appalling that the great citizens of an economic and military superpower, and supposedly the "freest country in the world", are in fact only free to have the choice between a fail and a fake.
And it is incredible that intelligent dudes like BV remain seemingly unjaded by this, and are energised enough to want to defend or support either candidate in the race.
I appreciate you calling me intelligent. Nice thing to say. Thanks.
If you don't think drones killing 50 civilians in order to take out 2 "terrorists" isn't a problem, I can't help you.
If you aren't familiar with the Obama's administration role in the Fast and Furious scandal, I can't help you.
If you see no problem with giving out trillions in no interest "loans" to unspecificed private enttites overseas, I can't help you.
If you want to dismiss reports of US soldiers actively helping along/protecting opium production in Afghanistan, I can't help you.
Also, Hook_up did cite the saving of the US auto industry by Obama in this thread.
And sorry, but the size of the federal government, while a concern of mine, doesn't fucking matter one iota if whether big or small it continues with its criminal ways.
1) That is a problem, but that's not what we are talking about. You claim that the US attacks civilians, implying that we purposefully target them. That is flat out untrue. If you have proof to the contrary, post it up.
2) I am familiar, but that doesn't mean it's routine. Name another Mexican gun running sting operation that occured under this administration. Besides, why are you against criminal sting operations? Should these Mexican drug lords be permitted to buy arms in this country for use in mass killing in Mexico? I don't think they should.
3) I think I know what you are talking about, but the entities aren't unspecified. In any event, the alternative to doing that was a catastrophic financial meltdown. I don't think that's a better option.
4) Care to cite to these reports? That's plural now, so no fair citing to one, or to many that describe the same incident.
5) Obama does deserve credit for the auto bailout. Not all of it, but a lot of it, in my view. Presidents get credit for things maybe they shouldn't, and blame for things maybe they shouldn't. That's how it works. Anyway, this issue blows your premise that neither candidate is better than the other out of the water. Rmoney was against the bailout. He should be better than Obama, according to you, at least on this issue.
I hear you on the size of government thing, Harvey. Let's not forget that reasonable minds can differ.
4) Care to cite to these reports? That's plural now, so no fair citing to one, or to many that describe the same incident.
It's true. The US built a base in Afganistan prior to, and during the Gulf War. They withdrew after the war was over.
I've seen photo's, and google earth images, as recent as last year, of the poppy fields being grown on the abandon military base.
It's appalling that the great citizens of an economic and military superpower, and supposedly the "freest country in the world", are in fact only free to have the choice between a fail and a fake.
And it is incredible that intelligent dudes like BV remain seemingly unjaded by this, and are energised enough to want to defend or support either candidate in the race.
Well you don't have to live outside our borders to make that remark however obvious it is. Trust me I think that deep down every American knows that. Too often it is the "lesser evil" that one casts a vote for here. Healthcare reform, Social Security Reform, 'Insert Blank' Reform, what we really need is Presidential & Congressional Reform. No lobbyists. Secular Government. Secular President. Our future presidents should be from the intelligentsia. Atheist. People versed in the accumulated knowledge of mankind. Things that can be referenced and affirmed from quantifiable real-word evidence. Beyond dispute. Only then can we move forward. Sadly no American president can win the election unless he is a believer. At least in our lifetime.
The bipolar political divide is so vicious here in America that politics are almost never discussed unless you and your interlocutor are of the same stripe. Otherwise things get very heated very fast. One thing without dispute is the media bias and the gloating over Obama. It's sickening even if you support him. I and others find the most telling (and reputable) journalist reports from abroad. Generally there is subtle to no bias. And it's amazing to read about an event that is covered with a few paragraphs in an article here, but when read in an overseas newspaper the same report can cover multiple pages and surprisingly at least initially (now I know better) is far more in depth and informative than anything you will read over here. The Internet and the resultant explosion of the information age is the death knell to popular ignorance and unforced mediocrity and the lame and lazy state of American Journalism.
Please I urge Americans to read foreign newspapers available on the Internet. It is refreshing. That have little stake in the game (biased reporting to sell more to some agreeable people). Mostly British news organizations but some are good from Australia and New Zealand.
Journalistic Integrity. This Century's Pervasive Oxymoron.
Please I urge Americans to read foreign newspapers available on the Internet. It is refreshing. .
Foreign newspapers on the Internet is a strange place to recommend as a news source, IMO.
TV. Before that, radio and newspaper. There is always word of mouth. Media is something I know very little about. What I do know I want to be able to apply to my life and I want to find out about from the point where the action is influencing my life. In other words, I don't like the people who report the news (reporters) I like the people who make it (citizens).
Please I urge Americans to read foreign newspapers available on the Internet. It is refreshing. .
Foreign newspapers on the Internet is a strange place to recommend as a news source, IMO.
TV. Before that, radio and newspaper. There is always word of mouth. Media is something I know very little about. What I do know I want to be able to apply to my life and I want to find out about from the point where the action is influencing my life. In other words, I don't like the people who report the news (reporters) I like the people who make it (citizens).
My point was that they are less inclined toward bias and spin because they are outsiders. American news source, not so much.
Please I urge Americans to read foreign newspapers available on the Internet. It is refreshing. .
Foreign newspapers on the Internet is a strange place to recommend as a news source, IMO.
TV. Before that, radio and newspaper. There is always word of mouth. Media is something I know very little about. What I do know I want to be able to apply to my life and I want to find out about from the point where the action is influencing my life. In other words, I don't like the people who report the news (reporters) I like the people who make it (citizens).
My point was that they are less inclined toward bias and spin because they are outsiders. American news source, not so much.
Ok. The thing that gets me with that point is the address. If you have to go to a different site to get facts that are unavailable elsewhere, then I agree 100%. However on the bases of bias, it may be more 'sustainable' to tolerate a bias (maybe even enjoy it) from a site that you, yourself, can be apart of. Example: ads.
More people should be seeking a perspective from outside the normal American news cycles. Main stream 'journalism' in North America tends to sensationalize and polarize issues that will ultimately generate more ad revenue. Outside/foreign media aren't usually concerned with how their reports and articles would be perceived by Americans, so you get much less of the spin, propaganda, and bullshit that exists in American media.
America needs a healthy does of self reflection and skepticism on it's core principles and values. And not the ones that politicians pretty-up and talk about during elections. I mean the actual effects, at home and abroad, of the fiscal, political, and social policies of the United States. Will never happen until there's an intelligent, secular government in place that isn't in the pocket of banks and big business. Which ain't gonna happen any time soon, sadly.
Comments
Supporting either = LOSS.
But whatever, y'all already know what I think. Let's get back to music.
We haven't heard Bill Clinton's sax in quite some time.
Condoleeza Rice has a background in classical piano.
Jon Huntsman was apparently keyboardist in a prog-rock band at some point.
I don't know of any other current political figures' musical talents.
It boggles the mind that these are factual things that have been accomplished under this administration, things that Romney is on record as opposing vehemently, yet some are out there saying things like Obama and Romney are exactly the same, or that one is no better than the other.
Maybe these people don't think these things are "good"? They should say so, if that's the case.
Mike Huckabee plays the shit of of the bass. :shreddin_it:
Illegal unmanned drone attacks against civilians have not only come to fruition but have become routine.
Bailing out undeserving private enttites, both domestic and foreign, has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Taking a dump on the Constitution in order to deteriorate our civil liberties, all in the name of "protecting" us from CIA-trained "terrorists", has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Utilizing US soldiers in Afghanistan to manufacture opium for sale on the world market has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
Selling guns to Mexican druglords has not only come to fruition but has become routine.
What is it again that I'm looking past in order to be bothered by such things?
1) The drone attacks are not against civilians. And they are not illegal. Why do you think they are?
2)It's not routine. Why do you think it is? Does someone really need to post a list of all the industries/companies that have not been bailed out in the past 250 years? And why do you want (possibly) millions of your fellow Americans to be out of work, when it's preventable, which could also cause a drag on the rest of the economy? Maybe even costing you your job? This is some serious, "I got mine, fuck you" BS.
3) I'll grant you this one.
4)I call bullshit on your Afghanistan claim.
5) It may be routine, but it's routine from private citizens in places like Arizona, and yep, Texas. Not routine for the feds, at least not unless it's part of a criminal sting operation. Why are you against that?
4 out of 5 claims you make are false.
But yeah, since we are all now making more than a livable wage from newly created public works jobs where we use solar-powered light sabers as our tools, I shouldn't concern myself with Somalian babies being blown up by robots.
If you want to avoid providing support for your assertions, feel free. Fact remains, 4 out 5 of the things you listed are incorrect. You can't back them up, so you create a strawman about how Obama "didn't singlehandedly or otherwise, save the US auto industry", which no one here claims. edit- at least not the singlehandedly part.
Also, public sector jobs have decreased under Obama.
If you aren't familiar with the Obama's administration role in the Fast and Furious scandal, I can't help you.
If you see no problem with giving out trillions in no interest "loans" to unspecificed private enttites overseas, I can't help you.
If you want to dismiss reports of US soldiers actively helping along/protecting opium production in Afghanistan, I can't help you.
Also, Hook_up did cite the saving of the US auto industry by Obama in this thread.
And sorry, but the size of the federal government, while a concern of mine, doesn't fucking matter one iota if whether big or small it continues with its criminal ways.
And it is incredible that intelligent dudes like BV remain seemingly unjaded by this, and are energised enough to want to defend or support either candidate in the race.
I appreciate you calling me intelligent. Nice thing to say. Thanks.
:real_headz:
1) That is a problem, but that's not what we are talking about. You claim that the US attacks civilians, implying that we purposefully target them. That is flat out untrue. If you have proof to the contrary, post it up.
2) I am familiar, but that doesn't mean it's routine. Name another Mexican gun running sting operation that occured under this administration. Besides, why are you against criminal sting operations? Should these Mexican drug lords be permitted to buy arms in this country for use in mass killing in Mexico? I don't think they should.
3) I think I know what you are talking about, but the entities aren't unspecified. In any event, the alternative to doing that was a catastrophic financial meltdown. I don't think that's a better option.
4) Care to cite to these reports? That's plural now, so no fair citing to one, or to many that describe the same incident.
5) Obama does deserve credit for the auto bailout. Not all of it, but a lot of it, in my view. Presidents get credit for things maybe they shouldn't, and blame for things maybe they shouldn't. That's how it works. Anyway, this issue blows your premise that neither candidate is better than the other out of the water. Rmoney was against the bailout. He should be better than Obama, according to you, at least on this issue.
I hear you on the size of government thing, Harvey. Let's not forget that reasonable minds can differ.
It's true. The US built a base in Afganistan prior to, and during the Gulf War. They withdrew after the war was over.
I've seen photo's, and google earth images, as recent as last year, of the poppy fields being grown on the abandon military base.
Well you don't have to live outside our borders to make that remark however obvious it is. Trust me I think that deep down every American knows that. Too often it is the "lesser evil" that one casts a vote for here. Healthcare reform, Social Security Reform, 'Insert Blank' Reform, what we really need is Presidential & Congressional Reform. No lobbyists. Secular Government. Secular President. Our future presidents should be from the intelligentsia. Atheist. People versed in the accumulated knowledge of mankind. Things that can be referenced and affirmed from quantifiable real-word evidence. Beyond dispute. Only then can we move forward. Sadly no American president can win the election unless he is a believer. At least in our lifetime.
The bipolar political divide is so vicious here in America that politics are almost never discussed unless you and your interlocutor are of the same stripe. Otherwise things get very heated very fast. One thing without dispute is the media bias and the gloating over Obama. It's sickening even if you support him. I and others find the most telling (and reputable) journalist reports from abroad. Generally there is subtle to no bias. And it's amazing to read about an event that is covered with a few paragraphs in an article here, but when read in an overseas newspaper the same report can cover multiple pages and surprisingly at least initially (now I know better) is far more in depth and informative than anything you will read over here. The Internet and the resultant explosion of the information age is the death knell to popular ignorance and unforced mediocrity and the lame and lazy state of American Journalism.
Please I urge Americans to read foreign newspapers available on the Internet. It is refreshing. That have little stake in the game (biased reporting to sell more to some agreeable people). Mostly British news organizations but some are good from Australia and New Zealand.
Journalistic Integrity. This Century's Pervasive Oxymoron.
Foreign newspapers on the Internet is a strange place to recommend as a news source, IMO.
TV. Before that, radio and newspaper. There is always word of mouth. Media is something I know very little about. What I do know I want to be able to apply to my life and I want to find out about from the point where the action is influencing my life. In other words, I don't like the people who report the news (reporters) I like the people who make it (citizens).
My point was that they are less inclined toward bias and spin because they are outsiders. American news source, not so much.
Ok. The thing that gets me with that point is the address. If you have to go to a different site to get facts that are unavailable elsewhere, then I agree 100%. However on the bases of bias, it may be more 'sustainable' to tolerate a bias (maybe even enjoy it) from a site that you, yourself, can be apart of. Example: ads.
America needs a healthy does of self reflection and skepticism on it's core principles and values. And not the ones that politicians pretty-up and talk about during elections. I mean the actual effects, at home and abroad, of the fiscal, political, and social policies of the United States. Will never happen until there's an intelligent, secular government in place that isn't in the pocket of banks and big business. Which ain't gonna happen any time soon, sadly.