Moreover, the idea that going professional is a way to fight racism is nonsense. Look at how many South Asian and East Asian professionals are out there. You think that stops us from getting shitted on in terms of anti-immigrant, anti-Asian racism?
I see what you're saying. But look... Asians have a positive stereotype going for them. Nobody in your standard exurban housing development is going to freak out because Asians moved in next door. I think the immigration thing is semi-separate... you're talking about introducing new people to "steal" jobs - I'd be willing to bet if there was a flood of Norwegians coming in "stealing" jobs that people, if they could easily identify them, would be just as pissed. Rolling it back to the 19th/early 20th century, that's precisely what happened to the Irish, and then Eastern Europeans - they got shit on because your standard white Americans thought they were out to heist their jobs.
Really though, race is just an unfortunately easy way to identify certain people.
Race is not reducible to class. If anything, if you look at the construction of class in America, race has always played a primary role in shaping how we think of class categories from the get go, especially the working class. The problem is that today, we've gotten in backwards, especially by neo-liberals who want to believe that our problems with racism have to do with class at its core. Seriously, if we eliminated class differences tomorrow, we'd still have virulent racism in the mix.
Like I said before, I think that white people will always prefer white people, and white people have most of the control of business/money in this country. But like dude said in a prior post, everyone is like that - people favor who they identify with.
I don't think equality would solve everything, because people always feel more comfortable around who they classify as "their own" - but I think it's BS to suggest that it's all about the melanin. An easy test:
Think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about blacks in the US: (ex.)
bad credit uneducated criminal lack of neighborhood maintenance untended illegimate kids
Now, think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about "white trash": (ex)
bad credit uneducated criminal lack of neighborhood maintenance untended illegimate kids
Tell me that shit isn't economics.
What's the difference? It's a lot easier for white trash to blend in with middle/upper class white folks that it is for blacks to blend in with middle/upper class white folks.
Hence the holdback.
So I'm not discounting race favoritism, but seriously, tell me the stereotypes don't come back to economics... ?
I'm totally digging this thread, damn good read so far.
Non-black people who told grafwritah to simmer down:[/b] I believe the reason racism continues on, especially in more liberal circles is becuase it is not confronted as head on as it should be. Folks think it rude or "not their place" to ask tough questions or even just curiousity questions to black people when it comes to race. This does nothing but allows the hate to go on without an exact understanding of why. Grafwritah is doing what most people should do, which is be brave enough to get the answers he needed to hear.
Grafwritah:[/b] Keep doing what your doing. As your time on this site goes on I've grown to have way more respect for you.
EdPowers:[/b] You still got the internet going nuts. keep the dialogue going
Soulman:[/b] You need to post more 80's hip-hop Phil photos. Them shits is nice.
Just to be clear, is this the kind of "father figure" voice you're talking about, Ed?
I'm just talking in a normal tone. I don't have anything to be embarassed about. I shared my take, other people have different views on it, that's cool. I don't see how it could hurt.
I can see how it could be construed that Guzzo has a "father figure" voice going on, but he seems to really just be encouraging open dialogue. Most posts of this nature break down into arguing. What's wrong with being supportive of productive conversation?
yeah, really though thats all I was doing.
I really do believe that active discussion on matters like this are very helpful, I did however fear a backlash against grafwritah for his comments and figured I'd go ahead and say what a good thing this type of talk was. Sorry if it was contrued otherwise.
No alterior motives here
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Moreover, the idea that going professional is a way to fight racism is nonsense. Look at how many South Asian and East Asian professionals are out there. You think that stops us from getting shitted on in terms of anti-immigrant, anti-Asian racism?
I see what you're saying. But look... Asians have a positive stereotype going for them. Nobody in your standard exurban housing development is going to freak out because Asians moved in next door. I think the immigration thing is semi-separate... you're talking about introducing new people to "steal" jobs - I'd be willing to bet if there was a flood of Norwegians coming in "stealing" jobs that people, if they could easily identify them, would be just as pissed. Rolling it back to the 19th/early 20th century, that's precisely what happened to the Irish, and then Eastern Europeans - they got shit on because your standard white Americans thought they were out to heist their jobs.
Really though, race is just an unfortunately easy way to identify certain people.
Race is not reducible to class. If anything, if you look at the construction of class in America, race has always played a primary role in shaping how we think of class categories from the get go, especially the working class. The problem is that today, we've gotten in backwards, especially by neo-liberals who want to believe that our problems with racism have to do with class at its core. Seriously, if we eliminated class differences tomorrow, we'd still have virulent racism in the mix.
Like I said before, I think that white people will always prefer white people, and white people have most of the control of business/money in this country. But like dude said in a prior post, everyone is like that - people favor who they identify with.
I don't think equality would solve everything, because people always feel more comfortable around who they classify as "their own" - but I think it's BS to suggest that it's all about the melanin. An easy test:
Think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about blacks in the US: (ex.)
bad credit uneducated criminal lack of neighborhood maintenance untended illegimate kids
Now, think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about "white trash": (ex)
bad credit uneducated criminal lack of neighborhood maintenance untended illegimate kids
Tell me that shit isn't economics.
What's the difference? It's a lot easier for white trash to blend in with middle/upper class white folks that it is for blacks to blend in with middle/upper class white folks.
Hence the holdback.
So I'm not discounting race favoritism, but seriously, tell me the stereotypes don't come back to economics... ?
Hey Grafwritah,
You make some interesting points, but the data on residential assimilation does not support your latter points. Despite minorities' socioeconomic gains, they STILL remain residentially segregated from Whites across the nation. Plus, the tipping point hypothesis predicts (and this has been supported in numerous studies) that White flight from neighborhoods occurs after the percentage of minority residents tops 30%. This has nothing to do with class because these new minority entrants have incomes comparable to their White counterparts. The more accurate take on this issue is that race interacts with class to fuel racism and discrimination. If anyone would like a reference list on this research, PM me and I'll hook y'all up.
stacks, it's such a good look that you are always referencing your quotes and studies etc. .... just wanted to say that. I can tell you do studies and research for a living.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
stacks, it's such a good look that you are always referencing your quotes and studies etc. .... just wanted to say that. I can tell you do studies and research for a living.
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Yo, what up my niggaz! Peep this- is it just me, or do you ever find yourself in a situation with a non-black person (especially a female) where you feel like you have to act a little bit nerdier (softer, less aggressive, whatever you want to call it) than you usually act just so that you won't come off as threatening to them? Even though I am harmless as long as I don't have that drank in me or one of my guns on my person, I feel the fear all the time. How about y'all niggaz? Let's discuss this, all four of us!
That's just the game. Shapeshifting/Master of Disguise is something your learn growing up. In NYC the level of interaction/tolerence is kinda high,which has allowed me to stay closer to my "nature". This is also reinforced by my work in the art community, who tend to embrace more "progressive" ideas than the rest of the "public". I look at it like basketball-----------------you have to make adjustments all the time. I think it goes for everybody. It's not easy being green.
I'm just talking in a normal tone. I don't have anything to be embarassed about. I shared my take, other people have different views on it, that's cool. I don't see how it could hurt.
I can see how it could be construed that Guzzo has a "father figure" voice going on, but he seems to really just be encouraging open dialogue. Most posts of this nature break down into arguing. What's wrong with being supportive of productive conversation?
I don't see anything wrong with being supportive of productive conversation. I was just trying to give Guzzo a bit of a hard time for telling people not to tell people what not to do.
You make some interesting points, but the data on residential assimilation does not support your latter points. Despite minorities' socioeconomic gains, they STILL remain residentially segregated from Whites across the nation. Plus, the tipping point hypothesis predicts (and this has been supported in numerous studies) that White flight from neighborhoods occurs after the percentage of minority residents tops 30%. This has nothing to do with class because these new minority entrants have incomes comparable to their White counterparts. The more accurate take on this issue is that race interacts with class to fuel racism and discrimination. If anyone would like a reference list on this research, PM me and I'll hook y'all up.
Yeah, I've read that stat too. But, that's currently, with people still having the stereotypical views that we're familiar with. I was saying even out the stats for blacks, then the stereotypes will start to fall. How long that would take or how or whatever is beyond the scope of my feeble mind.
And really where people live are traditionally the last places to change - I would expect public actions to change before neighborhood make-up.
Fatback wanted a reference on that 30% stat when I mentioned it a few months back but I couldn't remember where I read it, so he might like a PM with that if you've got it.
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Obviously having fact is excellent, but when you're talking about potential for change or a plan of action you can't really do much but speculate.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Obviously having fact is excellent, but when you're talking about potential for change or a plan of action you can't really do much but speculate.
Hey Graf,
I'm not sure if I totally agree with that because you could speculate based on theory and corroborating past trends. For example, the realistic-group conflict theory states that White discrmination against minorities increases as the proportion of minorities increases, due to more assumed competition for valuable resources. It follows from the "competition breeds contempt" maxim. Given the current economic situation, assuming the theory is true (and a shitload of research shows that it is), you could predict more anti-minority sentiments among Whites presently. This is exactly what national survey polls show, compared to say 7-10 years ago.
Well I guess a lot of my fallback here is prior minorities have generally been assimilated. This includes those that were previously seen as threats (Irish, Eastern Europeans) are now not really distinguishable from the status quo.
Of course, with people that are immediately identifiable as an out-group this changes the dynamic a little, but ultimately it seems that with enough time that this could also be possible with blacks --> whites.
Well I guess a lot of my fallback here is prior minorities have generally been assimilated. This includes those that were previously seen as threats (Irish, Eastern Europeans) are now not really distinguishable from the status quo.
Of course, with people that are immediately identifiable as an out-group this changes the dynamic a little, but ultimately it seems that with enough time that this could also be possible with blacks --> whites.
I just don't get what rational basis there is to make such a conjecture. It goes against history, it goes against contemporary race relations, it goes against every bit of research I've ever read on race and racism (which is more than I care to remember).
The reason why European groups, once seen as threats, were able to assimilate had everything to do with the modern American construction of whiteness and setting up Blackness as a foil. In other words, the Irish "became" American through a process in which previous national tensions became subliminated under racial ones. After a certain point, it didn't matter what part of Europe you were from so long as you weren't black. It wasn't because of some melting pot. There's historical data to back this up for days by the way, it's not "conjecture."
Think about this - African Americans, and to a lesser extent, other people of color (or non-white people if Fatback's going to start complaining again) have been systematically disenfranchised for at least 400 years. The modern civil rights era as we know it has only been around the last 40-50 years. While we've made some clear progress in terms of banning outright de jure segregation, de facto segregation continues everywhere and institutional racism is still a reality for millions on a daily basis whether you're talking about in the job market, in health care, in housing, in education, in the justice system. These things become entrenched for a reason, they don't simply fade over time because people get nicer.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Well I guess a lot of my fallback here is prior minorities have generally been assimilated. This includes those that were previously seen as threats (Irish, Eastern Europeans) are now not really distinguishable from the status quo.
Of course, with people that are immediately identifiable as an out-group this changes the dynamic a little, but ultimately it seems that with enough time that this could also be possible with blacks --> whites.
I just don't get what rational basis there is to make such a conjecture. It goes against history, it goes against contemporary race relations, it goes against every bit of research I've ever read on race and racism (which is more than I care to remember).
The reason why European groups, once seen as threats, were able to assimilate had everything to do with the modern American construction of whiteness and setting up Blackness as a foil. In other words, the Irish "became" American through a process in which previous national tensions became subliminated under racial ones. After a certain point, it didn't matter what part of Europe you were from so long as you weren't black. It wasn't because of some melting pot. There's historical data to back this up for days by the way, it's not "conjecture."
Think about this - African Americans, and to a lesser extent, other people of color (or non-white people if Fatback's going to start complaining again) have been systematically disenfranchised for at least 400 years. The modern civil rights era as we know it has only been around the last 40-50 years. While we've made some clear progress in terms of banning outright de jure segregation, de facto segregation continues everywhere and institutional racism is still a reality for millions on a daily basis whether you're talking about in the job market, in health care, in housing, in education, in the justice system. These things become entrenched for a reason, they don't simply fade over time because people get nicer.
YEP!!!! For those that don't know, here are some references:
Beggs, J. J., Villemez, W. J., & Arnold, R. (1997). Black population concentration and Black-White inequality: Expanding the consideration of place and space effects. Social Forces, 76, 65-91.
Burr, J. A., Potter, L. B., Galle, O. R., & Fossett, M. A. (1992). Migration and metropolitan opportunity structures: A demographic response to racial inequality. Social Science Research, 21, 380-405.
Cohn, S., & Fossett, M. (1995). Why racial employment inequality is greater in northern labor markets: Regional differences in White-Black employment differentials. Social Forces, 74, 511-542.
Foley, S., Kidder, D. L., & Powell, G. N. (2002). The perceived glass ceiling and justice perceptions: An investigation of Hispanic law associates. Journal of Management, 28, 471-496.
Green, D. P., Strolovitch, D. Z., & Wong, J. S. (1998). Defended neighborhoods, integration, and racially motivated crime. American Journal of Sociology, 104, 372-403.
Kirschenman, J., & Neckerman, K. M. (1991). ???We???d love to hire them, but??????: The meaning of race for employers. In C. Jencks & P. E. Peterson (Eds.), The urban underclass (pp. 203-232). Washington, DC: The Brookings Institution.
Logan, J. R., Alba, R. D., & Leung, S. Y. (1996). Minority access to White suburbs: A multiregional comparison. Social Forces, 74, 851-881.
Page, M. (1995). Racial and ethnic discrimination in urban housing markets: Evidence from a recent audit study. Journal of Urban Economics, 38, 183-206.
Powell, G. N., & Butterfield, D. A. (2002). Exploring the influence of decision makers??? race and gender on actual promotion to top management. Personnel Psychology, 55, 397-418.
Quillian, L. (1996). Group threat and regional change in attitudes toward African-Americans. American Journal of Sociology, 102, 816-860.
Reskin, B. F., McBrier, D. B., & Kmec, J. A. (1999). The determinants and consequences of workplace sex and race composition. Annual Review of Sociology, 25, 335-361.
Smith, R. A. (2002). Race, gender, and authority in the workplace: Theory and research. Annual Review of Sociology, 28, 509-542.
Stoll, M. A., Holzer, H. J., & Ihlanfeldt, K. R. (2000). Within cities and suburbs: Racial residential concentration and the spatial distribution of employment opportunities across sub-metropolitan areas. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, 19, 207-231.
Tang, J. (1997). The model minority thesis revisited: (Counter)evidence from the science and engineering fields. Journal of Applied Behavioral Science, 33, 291-315.
Taylor, M. C. (1998). How White attitudes vary with the racial composition of local populations: Numbers count. American Sociological Review, 63, 512-535.
If you really want to see some statistics on racial-ethnic disparities in society, go to this website Census Bureau Home Page and checkout some of their reports.
The reason why European groups, once seen as threats, were able to assimilate had everything to do with the modern American construction of whiteness and setting up Blackness as a foil. In other words, the Irish "became" American through a process in which previous national tensions became subliminated under racial ones. After a certain point, it didn't matter what part of Europe you were from so long as you weren't black. It wasn't because of some melting pot. There's historical data to back this up for days by the way, it's not "conjecture."
--> We've got Arabs now. I see them going racial AND national with the tension. New scapegoat?
---
Data will back up what you're saying, I'm sure. But it's rather narrow minded to make an assumption that what always was will always be, as if change is impossible or will be minimal if achieved. Of course, I'm not so naive as to suggest that we'll have these pesky racial issues all wrapped up in, oh, say, 20 years or so.
I know people don't like the Jewish parallel, but being a group that has been shitted on for a much larger window of time, they seem to have made some fantastic strides in the last 50 years. And you can't tell me that Jews are not readily identifiable much of the time through various methods. Of course, hey, that only took a few thousand years though.
I guess I look at what was, and what is, and what could be, and it seems that progress is most likely inevitable. Sure, you have the elimination of du jure discrimination - but that took time. Yes, something like 85% of the American population lives in a neighborhood made up of 95% or more of their own race. I just don't see why, with elimination being the common theme, it's so unfathomable that eventually de facto discrimination will go that way too.
It just seems to me that people expect things to be wrapped up in a short period of time. There's no immediate gratification in racial harmony. But, pick a realistic window of time - 100 years, maybe - and you think with the change in the last 100 that larger steps can't be made in the next?
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Obviously having fact is excellent, but when you're talking about potential for change or a plan of action you can't really do much but speculate.
Hey Graf,
I'm not sure if I totally agree with that because you could speculate based on theory and corroborating past trends. For example, the realistic-group conflict theory states that White discrmination against minorities increases as the proportion of minorities increases, due to more assumed competition for valuable resources. It follows from the "competition breeds contempt" maxim. Given the current economic situation, assuming the theory is true (and a shitload of research shows that it is), you could predict more anti-minority sentiments among Whites presently. [/b] This is exactly what national survey polls show, compared to say 7-10 years ago.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Fast-forward 3 1/2 years later and this sentence is now of particular interest. I'd be really curious to see a study that somehow measures whether racist attitudes have been on a rise proportional to the recent economic meltdown.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Obviously having fact is excellent, but when you're talking about potential for change or a plan of action you can't really do much but speculate.
Hey Graf,
I'm not sure if I totally agree with that because you could speculate based on theory and corroborating past trends. For example, the realistic-group conflict theory states that White discrmination against minorities increases as the proportion of minorities increases, due to more assumed competition for valuable resources. It follows from the "competition breeds contempt" maxim. Given the current economic situation, assuming the theory is true (and a shitload of research shows that it is), you could predict more anti-minority sentiments among Whites presently. [/b] This is exactly what national survey polls show, compared to say 7-10 years ago.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Fast-forward 3 1/2 years later and this sentence is now of particular interest. I'd be really curious to see a study that somehow measures whether racist attitudes have been on a rise proportional to the recent economic meltdown.
Hey Willie,
Excellent observation on your part, and given prior theory and research, I predict that you'll see a spike in anti-minority sentiments among Whites compared to just a few years ago. Also, there were reports of anti-minority violence, perpetrated by angry Whites, shortly after Obama's election win, which corroborates group position theory (Blumer, 1958; Bobo, 1999). In this theory, members of high-status groups are predicted to become more hostile in response to perceived threats to their privileged status position in society. To some, President-Elect Obama personifies this form of threat. It will be interesting to see the implications that the economy and relevant events have for race relations in the near future.
References:
Blumer, H. (1958). Race prejudice as a sense of group position. Pacific Sociological Review, 1, 3-7.
Bobo, L. D. (1999). Prejudice as group position: Microfoundations of a sociological approach to racism and race relations. Journal of Social Issues, 55, 445-473.
I hate on everybody - blacks, whites, arabs, country bumpkins, you name it - but especially the pc oh that is so offensive types. fuck outta here - and the most uptight people when it comes to race issues have got to be americans - sooooo uptight.
my most important race issue is making whoopee with all the flavors - i even humped a german girl.
oh and deaf people - what the fuck is up with your look?
Comments
I see what you're saying. But look... Asians have a positive stereotype going for them. Nobody in your standard exurban housing development is going to freak out because Asians moved in next door. I think the immigration thing is semi-separate... you're talking about introducing new people to "steal" jobs - I'd be willing to bet if there was a flood of Norwegians coming in "stealing" jobs that people, if they could easily identify them, would be just as pissed. Rolling it back to the 19th/early 20th century, that's precisely what happened to the Irish, and then Eastern Europeans - they got shit on because your standard white Americans thought they were out to heist their jobs.
Really though, race is just an unfortunately easy way to identify certain people.
Like I said before, I think that white people will always prefer white people, and white people have most of the control of business/money in this country. But like dude said in a prior post, everyone is like that - people favor who they identify with.
I don't think equality would solve everything, because people always feel more comfortable around who they classify as "their own" - but I think it's BS to suggest that it's all about the melanin. An easy test:
Think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about blacks in the US: (ex.)
bad credit
uneducated
criminal
lack of neighborhood maintenance
untended illegimate kids
Now, think of all the general stereotypes that come to mind about "white trash": (ex)
bad credit
uneducated
criminal
lack of neighborhood maintenance
untended illegimate kids
Tell me that shit isn't economics.
What's the difference? It's a lot easier for white trash to blend in with middle/upper class white folks that it is for blacks to blend in with middle/upper class white folks.
Hence the holdback.
So I'm not discounting race favoritism, but seriously, tell me the stereotypes don't come back to economics... ?
yeah, really though thats all I was doing.
I really do believe that active discussion on matters like this are very helpful, I did however fear a backlash against grafwritah for his comments and figured I'd go ahead and say what a good thing this type of talk was. Sorry if it was contrued otherwise.
No alterior motives here
Hey Grafwritah,
You make some interesting points, but the data on residential assimilation does not support your latter points. Despite minorities' socioeconomic gains, they STILL remain residentially segregated from Whites across the nation. Plus, the tipping point hypothesis predicts (and this has been supported in numerous studies) that White flight from neighborhoods occurs after the percentage of minority residents tops 30%. This has nothing to do with class because these new minority entrants have incomes comparable to their White counterparts. The more accurate take on this issue is that race interacts with class to fuel racism and discrimination. If anyone would like a reference list on this research, PM me and I'll hook y'all up.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Thank, T***a. I prefer to let the facts do the talking versus injecting uninformed opinion. That statement is not directed at anyone, just a general pet-peeve of mine. I can't stand discussing issues with dogmatic, uninformed people (e.g., major divide between myself and mom-dukes). They FEEL instead of know. "I revolve around science..."
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
That's just the game. Shapeshifting/Master of Disguise is something your learn growing up. In NYC the level of interaction/tolerence is kinda high,which has allowed me to stay closer to my "nature". This is also reinforced by my work in the art community, who tend to embrace more "progressive" ideas than the rest of the "public".
I look at it like basketball-----------------you have to make adjustments all the time. I think it goes for everybody. It's not easy being green.
I don't see anything wrong with being supportive of productive conversation. I was just trying to give Guzzo a bit of a hard time for telling people not to tell people what not to do.
Yeah, I've read that stat too. But, that's currently, with people still having the stereotypical views that we're familiar with. I was saying even out the stats for blacks, then the stereotypes will start to fall. How long that would take or how or whatever is beyond the scope of my feeble mind.
And really where people live are traditionally the last places to change - I would expect public actions to change before neighborhood make-up.
Fatback wanted a reference on that 30% stat when I mentioned it a few months back but I couldn't remember where I read it, so he might like a PM with that if you've got it.
Obviously having fact is excellent, but when you're talking about potential for change or a plan of action you can't really do much but speculate.
Hey Graf,
I'm not sure if I totally agree with that because you could speculate based on theory and corroborating past trends. For example, the realistic-group conflict theory states that White discrmination against minorities increases as the proportion of minorities increases, due to more assumed competition for valuable resources. It follows from the "competition breeds contempt" maxim. Given the current economic situation, assuming the theory is true (and a shitload of research shows that it is), you could predict more anti-minority sentiments among Whites presently. This is exactly what national survey polls show, compared to say 7-10 years ago.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Of course, with people that are immediately identifiable as an out-group this changes the dynamic a little, but ultimately it seems that with enough time that this could also be possible with blacks --> whites.
I just don't get what rational basis there is to make such a conjecture. It goes against history, it goes against contemporary race relations, it goes against every bit of research I've ever read on race and racism (which is more than I care to remember).
The reason why European groups, once seen as threats, were able to assimilate had everything to do with the modern American construction of whiteness and setting up Blackness as a foil. In other words, the Irish "became" American through a process in which previous national tensions became subliminated under racial ones. After a certain point, it didn't matter what part of Europe you were from so long as you weren't black. It wasn't because of some melting pot. There's historical data to back this up for days by the way, it's not "conjecture."
Think about this - African Americans, and to a lesser extent, other people of color (or non-white people if Fatback's going to start complaining again) have been systematically disenfranchised for at least 400 years. The modern civil rights era as we know it has only been around the last 40-50 years. While we've made some clear progress in terms of banning outright de jure segregation, de facto segregation continues everywhere and institutional racism is still a reality for millions on a daily basis whether you're talking about in the job market, in health care, in housing, in education, in the justice system. These things become entrenched for a reason, they don't simply fade over time because people get nicer.
YEP!!!! For those that don't know, here are some references:
Beggs, J. J., Villemez, W. J., & Arnold, R. (1997). Black population concentration and Black-White inequality: Expanding the consideration of place and space effects. Social Forces, 76, 65-91.
Burr, J. A., Potter, L. B., Galle, O. R., & Fossett, M. A. (1992). Migration and metropolitan opportunity structures: A demographic response to racial inequality. Social Science Research, 21, 380-405.
Cohn, S., & Fossett, M. (1995). Why racial employment inequality is greater in northern labor markets: Regional differences in White-Black employment differentials. Social Forces, 74, 511-542.
Foley, S., Kidder, D. L., & Powell, G. N. (2002). The perceived glass ceiling and justice perceptions: An investigation of Hispanic law associates. Journal of Management, 28, 471-496.
Green, D. P., Strolovitch, D. Z., & Wong, J. S. (1998). Defended neighborhoods, integration, and racially motivated crime. American Journal of Sociology, 104, 372-403.
Kirschenman, J., & Neckerman, K. M. (1991). ???We???d love to hire them, but??????: The meaning of race for employers. In C. Jencks & P. E. Peterson (Eds.), The urban underclass (pp. 203-232). Washington, DC: The Brookings Institution.
Logan, J. R., Alba, R. D., & Leung, S. Y. (1996). Minority access to White suburbs: A multiregional comparison. Social Forces, 74, 851-881.
Page, M. (1995). Racial and ethnic discrimination in urban housing markets: Evidence from a recent audit study. Journal of Urban Economics, 38, 183-206.
Powell, G. N., & Butterfield, D. A. (2002). Exploring the influence of decision makers??? race and gender on actual promotion to top management. Personnel Psychology, 55, 397-418.
Quillian, L. (1996). Group threat and regional change in attitudes toward African-Americans. American Journal of Sociology, 102, 816-860.
Reskin, B. F., McBrier, D. B., & Kmec, J. A. (1999). The determinants and consequences of workplace sex and race composition. Annual Review of Sociology, 25, 335-361.
Smith, R. A. (2002). Race, gender, and authority in the workplace: Theory and research. Annual Review of Sociology, 28, 509-542.
Stoll, M. A., Holzer, H. J., & Ihlanfeldt, K. R. (2000). Within cities and suburbs: Racial residential concentration and the spatial distribution of employment opportunities across sub-metropolitan areas. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, 19, 207-231.
Tang, J. (1997). The model minority thesis revisited: (Counter)evidence from the science and engineering fields. Journal of Applied Behavioral Science, 33, 291-315.
Taylor, M. C. (1998). How White attitudes vary with the racial composition of local populations: Numbers count. American Sociological Review, 63, 512-535.
If you really want to see some statistics on racial-ethnic disparities in society, go to this website Census Bureau Home Page and checkout some of their reports.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
--> We've got Arabs now. I see them going racial AND national with the tension. New scapegoat?
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Data will back up what you're saying, I'm sure. But it's rather narrow minded to make an assumption that what always was will always be, as if change is impossible or will be minimal if achieved. Of course, I'm not so naive as to suggest that we'll have these pesky racial issues all wrapped up in, oh, say, 20 years or so.
I know people don't like the Jewish parallel, but being a group that has been shitted on for a much larger window of time, they seem to have made some fantastic strides in the last 50 years. And you can't tell me that Jews are not readily identifiable much of the time through various methods. Of course, hey, that only took a few thousand years though.
I guess I look at what was, and what is, and what could be, and it seems that progress is most likely inevitable. Sure, you have the elimination of du jure discrimination - but that took time. Yes, something like 85% of the American population lives in a neighborhood made up of 95% or more of their own race. I just don't see why, with elimination being the common theme, it's so unfathomable that eventually de facto discrimination will go that way too.
It just seems to me that people expect things to be wrapped up in a short period of time. There's no immediate gratification in racial harmony. But, pick a realistic window of time - 100 years, maybe - and you think with the change in the last 100 that larger steps can't be made in the next?
But, of course, I'm speculating.
Fast-forward 3 1/2 years later and this sentence is now of particular interest. I'd be really curious to see a study that somehow measures whether racist attitudes have been on a rise proportional to the recent economic meltdown.
Hey Willie,
Excellent observation on your part, and given prior theory and research, I predict that you'll see a spike in anti-minority sentiments among Whites compared to just a few years ago. Also, there were reports of anti-minority violence, perpetrated by angry Whites, shortly after Obama's election win, which corroborates group position theory (Blumer, 1958; Bobo, 1999). In this theory, members of high-status groups are predicted to become more hostile in response to perceived threats to their privileged status position in society. To some, President-Elect Obama personifies this form of threat. It will be interesting to see the implications that the economy and relevant events have for race relations in the near future.
References:
Blumer, H. (1958). Race prejudice as a sense of group position. Pacific Sociological Review, 1, 3-7.
Bobo, L. D. (1999). Prejudice as group position: Microfoundations of a sociological approach to racism and race relations. Journal of Social Issues, 55, 445-473.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
my most important race issue is making whoopee with all the flavors - i even humped a german girl.
oh and deaf people - what the fuck is up with your look?
deaf people can't dress for shit. srsly