and im not sure what your pop was referring to, but shit WAS going to hell in a handbasket 40 years ago. thats not a lot of time at all. human failings are always the same, but they are magnified and have impacted the world significantly due to technology.
but just cause we had slavery for 400 years doesnt mean that sweatshops are ok now
just cause the Cuyahoga River caught fire, doesnt mean that we should be content now that its only laced with PCBs
just cause we used to have debtors prisons doesnt mean that we should be content with recidivism rates
just cause segregation is illegal doesnt mean we should be content with currently segregated schools
just cause southern courts used to protect lynch mobs....
on and on
people still and always should get up in arms about this shit. individuals gotta pace themselves so they dont burn out...you still gotta live life and appreciate all the beautiful things. but im thankful for all the tireless activists who put all their time towards what they believe
Believe me, the reasons my Dad thought the country was doomed are no where near what you feel they are.
b/w
Every single example that you give above was improved upon because of new laws that were put into place
Cool, Rock, you think all of this is peachy keen...as seemingly none of it affects a by-the-books kind of citizen like you. Possibly apart from your own situation, you do take the time to consider citizens in different situations than your own...like people targetted by racism or say people that actually are activists/protestors. But it's a shame that your preferences don't account for them AT ALL.
My "preference" is that every human being on the face of the planet be honest, fair and treat everyone else with respect, generosity and kindness. And that's how I try to live my peachy keen life.
Think we can legislate something to acheive that?
And for the record, I have probably broken my fair share of laws and know what the consequences are if I'm caught. I just don't think that my computer is being monitored 24/7 or that the CIA is pointing a listening device at my home to catch me....if and when that happens you can tell me 'you told me so".
Well, they aren't doing it to you. They are doing it to other people, which is exactly why you don't give a rat's ass about it.
...like people targetted by racism or say people that actually are activists/protestors. .
yup. i have been targeted by homeland security and FBI because of work associations with someone who went on to have ties to fringe animal rights orgs. shit sucks...i get secondary inspections and hour long interrogations after every international flight. even in other countries im on every flagged list. fucking blows. if laws like NDAA go through and they dont have to wait for me to be on neutral soil (airport customs), they could and would scoop me up at my house.
yes, some animal rights groups apparently have been classified as domestic terrorists
Cool, Rock, you think all of this is peachy keen...as seemingly none of it affects a by-the-books kind of citizen like you. Possibly apart from your own situation, you do take the time to consider citizens in different situations than your own...like people targetted by racism or say people that actually are activists/protestors. But it's a shame that your preferences don't account for them AT ALL.
My "preference" is that every human being on the face of the planet be honest, fair and treat everyone else with respect, generosity and kindness. And that's how I try to live my peachy keen life.
Think we can legislate something to acheive that?
And for the record, I have probably broken my fair share of laws and know what the consequences are if I'm caught. I just don't think that my computer is being monitored 24/7 or that the CIA is pointing a listening device at my home to catch me....if and when that happens you can tell me 'you told me so".
Well, they aren't doing it to you. They are doing it to other people, which is exactly why you don't give a rat's ass about it.
No...I believe that there are some people that they SHOULD be doing it to.
As a matter of fact I have been told that there is a chance that my phone has been monitored because of conversations that I have had with my friend Phil Pealrman, the father of Adam Gadahn who is an American citizen member of the Taliban. If their actions help catch this terrorist and saves peoples lives I am all for it.
I just don't think that my computer is being monitored 24/7 or that the CIA is pointing a listening device at my home to catch me....
Why would you care if they did? It's not like you have anything to hide right?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Rockadelic said:
HarveyCanal said:
Rockadelic said:
HarveyCanal said:
Cool, Rock, you think all of this is peachy keen...as seemingly none of it affects a by-the-books kind of citizen like you. Possibly apart from your own situation, you do take the time to consider citizens in different situations than your own...like people targetted by racism or say people that actually are activists/protestors. But it's a shame that your preferences don't account for them AT ALL.
My "preference" is that every human being on the face of the planet be honest, fair and treat everyone else with respect, generosity and kindness. And that's how I try to live my peachy keen life.
Think we can legislate something to acheive that?
And for the record, I have probably broken my fair share of laws and know what the consequences are if I'm caught. I just don't think that my computer is being monitored 24/7 or that the CIA is pointing a listening device at my home to catch me....if and when that happens you can tell me 'you told me so".
Well, they aren't doing it to you. They are doing it to other people, which is exactly why you don't give a rat's ass about it.
No...I believe that there are some people that they SHOULD be doing it to.
As a matter of fact I have been told that there is a chance that my phone has been monitored because of conversations that I have had with my friend Phil Pealrman, the father of Adam Gadahn who is an American citizen member of the Taliban. If their actions help catch this terrorist and saves peoples lives I am all for it.
Yes, because they are out to save lives...*eyeroll*.
Yes, because they are out to save lives...*eyeroll*.
OK...they are out to kill a terrorist who has murdered American citizens and attempted the bombing of LAX....because, you know, they just like to kill people.
Good points all around. I want to make it clear I'm not going Chicken Little "OMG WE'RE DOOMED" here. Like I said earlier, it's important to be objective with all of this. I'm just taking mainstream news stories and placing them all together to get a look at the bigger picture of what's happening.
Even if these laws were to pass it wouldn't change things for most people. We'll still have our Jersey Shore, Adam Sandler movies and our iPhones (or whatever) and life will go on. And now with the ability to record and store all your phone calls and emails, track you with GPS, come into your house without a search warrant, taze, pepper spray or shoot you with impunity and potentially lock you up indefinitely without a trial, so long as we all just shut the fuck up and go with the program we'll be fine. [/sarcasm]
If the provisions in NDAA are ever used it will be a dark day in US history.
It is never ok to detain, indefinitely, without charge, without legal counsel a US citizen.
Ever.
Even if the person being detained is a terrorist.
Those people who have fought to maintain our civil liberties, in my opinion, are not alarmist. They are heroes.
What happened to Brandon Mayfield under the Patriot Act is not half as bad as what would have happened to him under the NDAA provisions.
The people who stood up for Mayfield, (an arrested terrorist who had killed 191 people, we were told) at a time when we were all scared of the next terrorist attack, are heroes. Those who used the Patriot Act to arrest and detain him were not corrupt. They were just doing their job. The senators and representatives who passed the Patriot Act are the ones to blame. Them, and us, for not objecting.
And that is the important thing. The reason we have not yet been delivered to hell in a handbasket is that Americans have been brave enough to take to the streets and demand better from our government.
Believe me, the reasons my Dad thought the country was doomed are no where near what you feel they are.
b/w
Every single example that you give above was improved upon because of new laws that were put into place
you may have missed my point on both counts.
they were: griping 40 years ago and continuing to grip now are all justified. it is important for people to stay vigilant of those in control of political and economic power.
out of curiosity, which laws have improved recidivism rates? canceling Pell grants in prisons?
you dont have to answer that...not trying to nitpik or get too tangential, but suffice it to say i disagree with you. new laws crop up, while others get circumvented and new shit gets dumped in rivers. the beat goes on. we need regulations. we also need oversight and fine tuning.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Rockadelic said:
HarveyCanal said:
Yes, because they are out to save lives...*eyeroll*.
OK...they are out to kill a terrorist who has murdered American citizens and attempted the bombing of LAX....because, you know, they just like to kill people.
Well, that's absolutely true that they just like to kill people, period. But beyond that, all this terrorist hunting bullshit is just them killing off their double agents in order to cover their tracks.
people still and always should get up in arms about this shit. individuals gotta pace themselves so they dont burn out...you still gotta live life and appreciate all the beautiful things. but im thankful for all the tireless activists who put all their time towards what they believe
This is a lesson OWS is learning.
Here in Portland there are daily demonstrations, attempts to reestablish a camp and the daily GAs.
These are all being done by a small group of very dedicated people. People cycle in and out.
On top of that there are weekly larger events.
Stop foreclosure
Move your money
Shop local
Shut down the ports
...
People are burning out.
A more sustainable organization and infrastructure is needed.
As a matter of fact I have been told that there is a chance that my phone has been monitored because of conversations that I have had with my friend Phil Pealrman, the father of Adam Gadahn who is an American citizen member of the Taliban. If their actions help catch this terrorist and saves peoples lives I am all for it.
This sums up pretty much everything.
If you are of the belief that giving up your rights and privacy is cool in the event you might be fighting the battle against the bad guys, that's your prerogative. But you, or the police or even Hollywood shouldn't have the right to put that ability on everyone.
Believe me, the reasons my Dad thought the country was doomed are no where near what you feel they are.
b/w
Every single example that you give above was improved upon because of new laws that were put into place
you may have missed my point on both counts.
they were: griping 40 years ago and continuing to grip now are all justified. it is important for people to stay vigilant of those in control of political and economic power.
out of curiosity, which laws have improved recidivism rates? canceling Pell grants in prisons?
you dont have to answer that...not trying to nitpik or get too tangential, but suffice it to say i disagree with you. new laws crop up, while others get circumvented and new shit gets dumped in rivers. the beat goes on. we need regulations. we also need oversight and fine tuning.
1) My Dad thought the country was going to hell because of the damn hippies like myself who were protesting the war and smoking dope.
2) We outlawed debtor's prisons in the 1830's....my point was that each of your "used to be" problems were solved by the passing of laws...and they were.
As a matter of fact I have been told that there is a chance that my phone has been monitored because of conversations that I have had with my friend Phil Pealrman, the father of Adam Gadahn who is an American citizen member of the Taliban. If their actions help catch this terrorist and saves peoples lives I am all for it.
This sums up pretty much everything.
And like I said earlier, if you don't trust the goverment and think they have nothing but evil intent, like some of you seem to, I understand why you feel the way you do.
1) My Dad thought the country was going to hell because of the damn hippies like myself who were protesting the war and smoking dope.
2) We outlawed debtor's prisons in the 1830's....my point was that each of your "used to be" problems were solved by the passing of laws...and they were.
1. so kids rebelled then and they still do now....even worse cause of technology (sexting!). so pops still has a right to gripe, just like i do about environmental degradation and civil rights infringements
2.i follow you, but new laws shouldnt sacrifice constitutional protected rights imo
@ Bon Vivant This goes way beyond OWS (how did this thread get diverted back to that convo anyway?). To briefly touch on the subject of militarizing the police, does this somehow circumvent The Posse Comitatas Act by giving local cops the same tools without actually having the military enforce the law? Here's another link for good measure http://www.businessinsider.com/program-1033-military-equipment-police-2011-12
I've been thinking about this a lot lately and if you step back and look at it from a larger perspective, some frightening, unprecedented shit is taking place right now. The SOPA Act trying to censor the internet, The National Defense Authorization Act completely undermining due process and the right to a trial - which was the point of this thread, The Wall Street Journal and Wikileaks dropping hundreds of docs on global surveillance, even down to a local level in SF where they disabled cell phone service to prevent a protest (http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-12-02/bay-area/30470664_1_san-francisco-stations-bart-board-lynette-sweet). I could go on and on and on.
That said, it's important to maintain an opinion grounded in reality and not speculate on some "conspiracy theory" shit - which has become the go-to label for someone who questions what's going on, unfortunately - and keep things fact based as best we can. I believe we all have a right to question what is happening here and abroad. And while it might not affect you now, who's to say it won't in days to come? When you've had enough and want to stand up to what's slowly becoming a monolithic power grab on your rights? On your kids and our future generation's rights? This isn't some fantasy plot from a bad movie, this is real and it's happening now. Right in front of all of us.
Thanks for the links, day. I check them out when I get home from work. You make some good points, particularly about The Posse Comitatus Act, which is threatened by repeal now.
That said, it's important to maintain an opinion grounded in reality and not speculate on some "conspiracy theory" shit - which has become the go-to label for someone who questions what's going on, unfortunately - and keep things fact based as best we can. I believe we all have a right to question what is happening here and abroad. And while it might not affect you now, who's to say it won't in days to come? When you've had enough and want to stand up to what's slowly becoming a monolithic power grab on your rights? On your kids and our future generation's rights? This isn't some fantasy plot from a bad movie, this is real and it's happening now. Right in front of all of us.
This^^^
Seriously this is some sci-fi dis-topian future we are slowly approaching. This reminds me of what people said about the PATRIOT act, that it would not be used against ordinary citizens (Or in this case, not so smart teenagers... still: http://www.pbs.org/pov/betterthisworld/)Anyone who thinks this power grab is justified or reasonable should be ashamed. But until friends of yours are beaten and teargassed by police for peacefully expressing their political opinions (from 2008 RNC, OWS and other events) here is why:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin (source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin)
"By a declaration of rights, I mean one which shall stipulate freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce against monopolies, trial by juries in all cases, no suspensions of the habeas corpus, no standing armies. These are fetters against doing evil which no honest government should decline." -Thomas Jefferson (source: http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a7s12.html)
And now with the ability to record and store all your phone calls and emails, track you with GPS, come into your house without a search warrant, taze, pepper spray or shoot you with impunity and potentially lock you up indefinitely without a trial, so long as we all just shut the fuck up and go with the program we'll be fine. [/sarcasm]
Day....as usual enjoying the exchange.....
I know if I truly believed that what you state above is a real possibility I would not use a cell phone(I don't have one), email or any other device that could put me or my family's life or safety in danger.
Just like if I truly believed that the government was poisoning us with chemtrails I'd take precautions to make sure my family and I were protected from breathing them.
Can you see yourself ever taking those measures to avoid what you feel is a real threat as described above?
And now with the ability to record and store all your phone calls and emails, track you with GPS, come into your house without a search warrant, taze, pepper spray or shoot you with impunity and potentially lock you up indefinitely without a trial, so long as we all just shut the fuck up and go with the program we'll be fine. [/sarcasm]
Day....as usual enjoying the exchange.....
I know if I truly believed that what you state above is a real possibility I would not use a cell phone(I don't have one), email or any other device that could put me or my family's life or safety in danger.
Just like if I truly believed that the government was poisoning us with chemtrails I'd take precautions to make sure my family and I were protected from breathing them.
Can you see yourself ever taking those measures to avoid what you feel is a real threat as described above?
Same here, Rock. It's good to have a conversation where people can have differing viewpoints without resorting to talking shit.
I don't believe those things pose a direct threat to me at this point in time. I DO believe making those things legal and leaving it up to law enforcement to use at their discretion is a terrifying thing. I don't want my kids growing up under the spectre of 24 hour surveillance and the constant fear that you could be taken away at any moment. Do you? The point isn't "if" it could happen the point is that it would be legal if it did. That in and of itself should be enough for any sane person to oppose all of the things I mentioned above.
The biggest issue is that all of this goes against the constitution and what this country is about. I'm not naive to what has happened in the past (and present). There are many, manymany examples I could give, but the bottom line is that we, as a people, should be yelling at the top of our lungs whenever things like this arise. Giving up basic fundamental rights for the safety of a big "what if" has already been shown to do virtually nothing against "terrorists". And there is a very real chance I just put myself on the radar for googling the patriot act, cia abuses, and US human rights violations in succession.
I could go on, but really man, all of this is just fucked up.
Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they're fighting a "war," and the consequences are predictable. These policies have taken a toll. Among the victims of increasingly aggressive and militaristic police tactics: Cheye Calvo, the mayor of Berwyn Heights, Md., whose dogs were killed when Prince George's County police mistakenly raided his home; 92-year-old Katherine Johnston, who was gunned down by narcotics cops in Atlanta in 2006; 11-year-old Alberto Sepulveda, who was killed by Modesto, Calif., police during a drug raid in September 2000; 80-year-old Isaac Singletary, who was shot by undercover narcotics police in 2007 who were attempting to sell drugs from his yard; Jonathan Ayers, a Georgia pastor shot as he tried to flee a gang of narcotics cops who jumped him at a gas station in 2009; Clayton Helriggle, a 23-year-old college student killed during a marijuana raid in Ohio in 2002; and Alberta Spruill, who died of a heart attack after police deployed a flash grenade during a mistaken raid on her Harlem apartment in 2003. Most recently, voting rights activist Barbara Arnwine was raided by a SWAT team in Prince George's County, Md., on Nov. 21. Police were looking for Arnwine's nephew, a suspect in an armed robbery.
I mean, irrespective of whatever, I don't know of another journalist out there doing god's work on prohibition, and the tragedy that is the War On Drugs, like that man.
And now with the ability to record and store all your phone calls and emails, track you with GPS, come into your house without a search warrant, taze, pepper spray or shoot you with impunity and potentially lock you up indefinitely without a trial, so long as we all just shut the fuck up and go with the program we'll be fine. [/sarcasm]
Day....as usual enjoying the exchange.....
I know if I truly believed that what you state above is a real possibility I would not use a cell phone(I don't have one), email or any other device that could put me or my family's life or safety in danger.
Just like if I truly believed that the government was poisoning us with chemtrails I'd take precautions to make sure my family and I were protected from breathing them.
Can you see yourself ever taking those measures to avoid what you feel is a real threat as described above?
Same here, Rock. It's good to have a conversation where people can have differing viewpoints without resorting to talking shit.
I don't believe those things pose a direct threat to me at this point in time. I DO believe making those things legal and leaving it up to law enforcement to use at their discretion is a terrifying thing. I don't want my kids growing up under the spectre of 24 hour surveillance and the constant fear that you could be taken away at any moment. Do you? The point isn't "if" it could happen the point is that it would be legal if it did. That in and of itself should be enough for any sane person to oppose all of the things I mentioned above.
The biggest issue is that all of this goes against the constitution and what this country is about. I'm not naive to what has happened in the past (and present). There are many, manymany examples I could give, but the bottom line is that we, as a people, should be yelling at the top of our lungs whenever things like this arise. Giving up basic fundamental rights for the safety of a big "what if" has already been shown to do virtually nothing against "terrorists". And there is a very real chance I just put myself on the radar for googling the patriot act, cia abuses, and US human rights violations in succession.
I could go on, but really man, all of this is just fucked up.
Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they're fighting a "war," and the consequences are predictable. These policies have taken a toll. Among the victims of increasingly aggressive and militaristic police tactics: Cheye Calvo, the mayor of Berwyn Heights, Md., whose dogs were killed when Prince George's County police mistakenly raided his home; 92-year-old Katherine Johnston, who was gunned down by narcotics cops in Atlanta in 2006; 11-year-old Alberto Sepulveda, who was killed by Modesto, Calif., police during a drug raid in September 2000; 80-year-old Isaac Singletary, who was shot by undercover narcotics police in 2007 who were attempting to sell drugs from his yard; Jonathan Ayers, a Georgia pastor shot as he tried to flee a gang of narcotics cops who jumped him at a gas station in 2009; Clayton Helriggle, a 23-year-old college student killed during a marijuana raid in Ohio in 2002; and Alberta Spruill, who died of a heart attack after police deployed a flash grenade during a mistaken raid on her Harlem apartment in 2003. Most recently, voting rights activist Barbara Arnwine was raided by a SWAT team in Prince George's County, Md., on Nov. 21. Police were looking for Arnwine's nephew, a suspect in an armed robbery.
Thanks Day. I agree with everything you said.
That last article is great.
Details how cash strapped local police dept, through federal grants, have been able to militarize their police forces.
Details how this equipment is used against citizens on a daily bases across the country.
There is no new reporting in the story, it is all information that anyone who reads a daily paper and takes the time to connect the dots already knows.
Some people don't read daily papers and dot connecting is important work.
Here are some pics of the gear that Occupy Portland protesters have been seeing.
Have you checked out your local Joint Terrorism Task Force?
This is a program where your local police teams up with the FBI to do terrorism surveillance.
There is no local civilian oversight of JTTF.
That means that your local cops are not reporting to their superior.
Nor are they reporting to the police chief or the mayor or the superintendent.
Sounds like a good idea. Don't want another 9/11.
But as tripdub has pointed out, radical animal rights activists are listed as terrorists.
Which other political activists are also listed as terrorists we wont know until the feds chooses to tell us.
Comments
Believe me, the reasons my Dad thought the country was doomed are no where near what you feel they are.
b/w
Every single example that you give above was improved upon because of new laws that were put into place
Surly looks out for one guy. Surly!
yup. i have been targeted by homeland security and FBI because of work associations with someone who went on to have ties to fringe animal rights orgs. shit sucks...i get secondary inspections and hour long interrogations after every international flight. even in other countries im on every flagged list. fucking blows. if laws like NDAA go through and they dont have to wait for me to be on neutral soil (airport customs), they could and would scoop me up at my house.
yes, some animal rights groups apparently have been classified as domestic terrorists
No...I believe that there are some people that they SHOULD be doing it to.
As a matter of fact I have been told that there is a chance that my phone has been monitored because of conversations that I have had with my friend Phil Pealrman, the father of Adam Gadahn who is an American citizen member of the Taliban. If their actions help catch this terrorist and saves peoples lives I am all for it.
Why would you care if they did? It's not like you have anything to hide right?
Yes, because they are out to save lives...*eyeroll*.
Did you really not read the sentence just prior to the one above.....really?
OK...they are out to kill a terrorist who has murdered American citizens and attempted the bombing of LAX....because, you know, they just like to kill people.
Good points all around. I want to make it clear I'm not going Chicken Little "OMG WE'RE DOOMED" here. Like I said earlier, it's important to be objective with all of this. I'm just taking mainstream news stories and placing them all together to get a look at the bigger picture of what's happening.
Even if these laws were to pass it wouldn't change things for most people. We'll still have our Jersey Shore, Adam Sandler movies and our iPhones (or whatever) and life will go on. And now with the ability to record and store all your phone calls and emails, track you with GPS, come into your house without a search warrant, taze, pepper spray or shoot you with impunity and potentially lock you up indefinitely without a trial, so long as we all just shut the fuck up and go with the program we'll be fine. [/sarcasm]
It is never ok to detain, indefinitely, without charge, without legal counsel a US citizen.
Ever.
Even if the person being detained is a terrorist.
Those people who have fought to maintain our civil liberties, in my opinion, are not alarmist. They are heroes.
What happened to Brandon Mayfield under the Patriot Act is not half as bad as what would have happened to him under the NDAA provisions.
The people who stood up for Mayfield, (an arrested terrorist who had killed 191 people, we were told) at a time when we were all scared of the next terrorist attack, are heroes. Those who used the Patriot Act to arrest and detain him were not corrupt. They were just doing their job. The senators and representatives who passed the Patriot Act are the ones to blame. Them, and us, for not objecting.
And that is the important thing. The reason we have not yet been delivered to hell in a handbasket is that Americans have been brave enough to take to the streets and demand better from our government.
you may have missed my point on both counts.
they were: griping 40 years ago and continuing to grip now are all justified. it is important for people to stay vigilant of those in control of political and economic power.
out of curiosity, which laws have improved recidivism rates? canceling Pell grants in prisons?
you dont have to answer that...not trying to nitpik or get too tangential, but suffice it to say i disagree with you. new laws crop up, while others get circumvented and new shit gets dumped in rivers. the beat goes on. we need regulations. we also need oversight and fine tuning.
Well, that's absolutely true that they just like to kill people, period. But beyond that, all this terrorist hunting bullshit is just them killing off their double agents in order to cover their tracks.
Your computer is being monitored 24/7 and under the Patriot Act if the government wants access to that info they can get it.
This is a lesson OWS is learning.
Here in Portland there are daily demonstrations, attempts to reestablish a camp and the daily GAs.
These are all being done by a small group of very dedicated people. People cycle in and out.
On top of that there are weekly larger events.
Stop foreclosure
Move your money
Shop local
Shut down the ports
...
People are burning out.
A more sustainable organization and infrastructure is needed.
Yours too....I'm not concerned....are you?
If so, why are you still posting?
This sums up pretty much everything.
If you are of the belief that giving up your rights and privacy is cool in the event you might be fighting the battle against the bad guys, that's your prerogative. But you, or the police or even Hollywood shouldn't have the right to put that ability on everyone.
1) My Dad thought the country was going to hell because of the damn hippies like myself who were protesting the war and smoking dope.
2) We outlawed debtor's prisons in the 1830's....my point was that each of your "used to be" problems were solved by the passing of laws...and they were.
They were mitigated.
Which is why, as citizens, it is our duty to stay vigilante and make sure that past abuses are not repeated and laws are not circumvented.
Which is why we have this thread opposing the NDAA.
I am concerned.
Are concerned about terrorist attacks?
Then why do you go to public places?
And like I said earlier, if you don't trust the goverment and think they have nothing but evil intent, like some of you seem to, I understand why you feel the way you do.
And I never confuse the exception for the rule.
If I thought terrorists were monitoring a specific place, no, I wouldn't go there.
1. so kids rebelled then and they still do now....even worse cause of technology (sexting!). so pops still has a right to gripe, just like i do about environmental degradation and civil rights infringements
2.i follow you, but new laws shouldnt sacrifice constitutional protected rights imo
Thanks for the links, day. I check them out when I get home from work. You make some good points, particularly about The Posse Comitatus Act, which is threatened by repeal now.
haha! No worries.
Seriously this is some sci-fi dis-topian future we are slowly approaching. This reminds me of what people said about the PATRIOT act, that it would not be used against ordinary citizens (Or in this case, not so smart teenagers... still: http://www.pbs.org/pov/betterthisworld/)Anyone who thinks this power grab is justified or reasonable should be ashamed. But until friends of yours are beaten and teargassed by police for peacefully expressing their political opinions (from 2008 RNC, OWS and other events) here is why:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin (source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin)
"By a declaration of rights, I mean one which shall stipulate freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce against monopolies, trial by juries in all cases, no suspensions of the habeas corpus, no standing armies. These are fetters against doing evil which no honest government should decline." -Thomas Jefferson (source: http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a7s12.html)
Day....as usual enjoying the exchange.....
I know if I truly believed that what you state above is a real possibility I would not use a cell phone(I don't have one), email or any other device that could put me or my family's life or safety in danger.
Just like if I truly believed that the government was poisoning us with chemtrails I'd take precautions to make sure my family and I were protected from breathing them.
Can you see yourself ever taking those measures to avoid what you feel is a real threat as described above?
Same here, Rock. It's good to have a conversation where people can have differing viewpoints without resorting to talking shit.
I don't believe those things pose a direct threat to me at this point in time. I DO believe making those things legal and leaving it up to law enforcement to use at their discretion is a terrifying thing. I don't want my kids growing up under the spectre of 24 hour surveillance and the constant fear that you could be taken away at any moment. Do you? The point isn't "if" it could happen the point is that it would be legal if it did. That in and of itself should be enough for any sane person to oppose all of the things I mentioned above.
The biggest issue is that all of this goes against the constitution and what this country is about. I'm not naive to what has happened in the past (and present). There are many, many many examples I could give, but the bottom line is that we, as a people, should be yelling at the top of our lungs whenever things like this arise. Giving up basic fundamental rights for the safety of a big "what if" has already been shown to do virtually nothing against "terrorists". And there is a very real chance I just put myself on the radar for googling the patriot act, cia abuses, and US human rights violations in succession.
I could go on, but really man, all of this is just fucked up.
Everyone should read this.
I mean, irrespective of whatever, I don't know of another journalist out there doing god's work on prohibition, and the tragedy that is the War On Drugs, like that man.
Thanks Day. I agree with everything you said.
That last article is great.
Details how cash strapped local police dept, through federal grants, have been able to militarize their police forces.
Details how this equipment is used against citizens on a daily bases across the country.
There is no new reporting in the story, it is all information that anyone who reads a daily paper and takes the time to connect the dots already knows.
Some people don't read daily papers and dot connecting is important work.
Here are some pics of the gear that Occupy Portland protesters have been seeing.
Have you checked out your local Joint Terrorism Task Force?
This is a program where your local police teams up with the FBI to do terrorism surveillance.
There is no local civilian oversight of JTTF.
That means that your local cops are not reporting to their superior.
Nor are they reporting to the police chief or the mayor or the superintendent.
Sounds like a good idea. Don't want another 9/11.
But as tripdub has pointed out, radical animal rights activists are listed as terrorists.
Which other political activists are also listed as terrorists we wont know until the feds chooses to tell us.