I'm just curious. What do people on here think is easier to do?
Sell one $100 record that they paid $5.00 for making $95 profit
or
Selling 25 records that they paid $1.00 each for and selling them at $5.
Edit: I know it all depends on the records. But I just mean on a whole...
It's way easier to find 25 $5 records than 1 $100 record.
Agreed.
But a HELL of a lot easier to sell one $100 record than 25 @ $5.00
Is it? I've had plenty of $100 records sit around because the *right* customer has to walk in. I guess I could put them on ebay, but I don't see that as making it any easier.
$5 records sell all day, to.... you guessed it, average record buyers.
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
No question...the reason I do well @ ARC...and by well I mean we sell 50% of what we bring, is because every time it's completely new stuff...never been at a show before ever...this is a key to success for sure.
I'm just curious. What do people on here think is easier to do?
Sell one $100 record that they paid $5.00 for making $95 profit
or
Selling 25 records that they paid $1.00 each for and selling them at $5.
Edit: I know it all depends on the records. But I just mean on a whole...
It's way easier to find 25 $5 records than 1 $100 record.
Agreed.
But a HELL of a lot easier to sell one $100 record than 25 @ $5.00
Is it? I've had plenty of $100 records sit around because the *right* customer has to walk in. I guess I could put them on ebay, but I don't see that as making it any easier.
$5 records sell all day, to.... you guessed it, average record buyers.
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
No question...the reason I do well @ ARC...and by well I mean we sell 50% of what we bring, is because every time it's completely new stuff...never been at a show before ever...this is a key to success for sure.
But you're the exception and not the typical rule no? And this was what was brought up. Too many dealers won't do this. But how can you get these guys to change?
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
No question...the reason I do well @ ARC...and by well I mean we sell 50% of what we bring, is because every time it's completely new stuff...never been at a show before ever...this is a key to success for sure.
But you're the exception and not the typical rule no? And this was what was brought up. Too many dealers won't do this. But how can you get these guys to change?
Is it just the dealers that have to change? If they don't have the stock/turn-over, they just don't have it.
Maybe shows need to be less frequent and/or organizers need to stop having the same folks with the same 10 boxes of the same promo rap 12s and beat up jazz funk.
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
No question...the reason I do well @ ARC...and by well I mean we sell 50% of what we bring, is because every time it's completely new stuff...never been at a show before ever...this is a key to success for sure.
But you're the exception and not the typical rule no? And this was what was brought up. Too many dealers won't do this. But how can you get these guys to change?
Is it just the dealers that have to change? If they don't have the stock/turn-over, they just don't have it.
Maybe shows need to be less frequent and/or organizers need to stop having the same folks with the same 10 boxes of the same promo rap 12s and beat up jazz funk.
Agreed
I need at least 6 months to put together a table of new stuff and I dig more than most folks....probably too much.
I can't tell you how many dealers I've seen fade away into obscurity because they didn't turn their stock or keep up with what is selling vs. what's deader than dead stock.
Yeah, but part of that is just the economy of NYC. $7 beer, $4 tacos, $8 records, $1600 studio apartments.
It is what it is.
I think something you might be missing in your example is how HPB sets up and markets itself. They specialize in cheap records, and if they have a 4/$1 sale, everyone that *already* shops there is gonna go.
Unless the dollar sale in NYC was put on by, say, Academy, the only people that would likely know about it would be dealers/collectors/grippers.
If there was a nameless dollar bin sale in the Bay Area, same result. But if Amoeba said it was clearing out a warehouse, everyone would be there.
Not so much about the sale, but about who's putting it on/promoting it.
Can we agree that the "average" record buyer in places like NYC and L.A./S.F. are nothing like the average record buyers in the great majority of the country>?
I think this "average buyer" is very similar everywhere. They want staple records that have been considered cool for decades. The average buyer I encountered in Austin was less finicky and spent more than the average buyer in LA/SF. I don't know how the record economy of the city of Austin compares to the rest of Texas but records in general seemed a little more expensive than here in California. I had been told this was the case ahead of time but it still seemed a little odd. CA can go head to head with anywhere in terms of cheapskate sub-dollar grippers. But these people are far from normal if you ask me.
Yeah, but part of that is just the economy of NYC. $7 beer, $4 tacos, $8 records, $1600 studio apartments.
It is what it is.
I think something you might be missing in your example is how HPB sets up and markets itself. They specialize in cheap records, and if they have a 4/$1 sale, everyone that *already* shops there is gonna go.
Unless the dollar sale in NYC was put on by, say, Academy, the only people that would likely know about it would be dealers/collectors/grippers.
If there was a nameless dollar bin sale in the Bay Area, same result. But if Amoeba said it was clearing out a warehouse, everyone would be there.
Not so much about the sale, but about who's putting it on/promoting it.
Can we agree that the "average" record buyer in places like NYC and L.A./S.F. are nothing like the average record buyers in the great majority of the country>?
I think this "average buyer" is very similar everywhere. They want staple records that have been considered cool for decades. The average buyer I encountered in Austin was less finicky and spent more than the average buyer in LA/SF. I don't know how the record economy of the city of Austin compares to the rest of Texas but records in general seemed a little more expensive than here in California. I had been told this was the case ahead of time but it still seemed a little odd. CA can go head to head with anywhere in terms of cheapskate sub-dollar grippers. But these people are far from normal if you ask me.
J*ff,
What was your impression as a first time attendee to ARC?
Would you say there was a high % of "average" record collectors there?
What % of your sales were to the "average" record collectors vs. dealers / deep collectors?
In my view Austin is a very record centric city that supports more vinyl stores than most places.
A real indicator would be how many of the regular customers of those shops actually attend ARC.
I've been told by Antones that very few of their regulars attend but would love to hear from other Austin store owners who post here.
JP....Those regulars at your store who buy $5 commons, do many of them go to WFMU?
For me this is a great valuable thread. I thank all of you for sharing what you see out there.
The Eugene Show is a great show for bringing in the "average" record buyer.
I mean a person, who treats records as a commodity, like bread or a pair of socks.
This person is not going to get up early. In Eugene the room fills up in the afternoon even though it starts at 10am and the sharks are swimming before I get there at 6am.
All our average guy wants is to buy average records at average prices. In Eugene that means between $3-15.
Some of these average folks have a specialty. Blues, Grateful Dead, Ska, and are willing to go over $15 for the right record. But they mostly buy stuff that retails in the 3-15 range.
This person tends not try to talk down the price.
There is also most other kinds of buyers in the room. But the bulk are these average buyers.
The same is true, to a lesser degree at the Night Owl Record Show. The show is most crowded an hour or 2 after it starts and people still are coming in and buying in the last hour. Because they enjoy shopping for records, but are not fiending, and do not organize their life around record shows.
I have been to plenty of shows that are mostly, dealers selling to dealers and a handful of obsessive compulsive collectors. To me they are not good shows.
The fact is, now more than ever, there is no such thing as an "average collector", so trying to woo them is a waste of time. Any subset of collectors you can identify probably doesn't make up more than 15% of the record buying demographic at most.
The main problem with shows is almost entirely the shitty dealers that have been discussed above. As long as they are the norm, shows will be what they are. I've never heard of a show turning a dealer away because their records were overpriced or not up to snuff.
The other problem is that it is getting harder and harder to find the sexy records, and no amount of planning is going to change that. Filling a large space with awesome records at good prices is pretty much impossible these days. Deal.
In theory the shitty dealers should not be setting up every time. In theory their stock is overpriced/not up to snuff/unorganized/poorly displayed. But they must be doing well enough to make hauling those records around and paying table fees worthwhile.
I have resisted curating the sellers at Night Owl Record Show.
First come first serve. It's a fairness thing.
Also, you never know when crusty dude will come up.
More importantly, the guy who specializes in the biggest names in classic rock does really well. So does the guy who specializes in avant 80s rock and the guy who does soul/jazz and the guy who does 50s jazz and vocals and the guy who does country and $1 records. They do well because there are buyers for their stuff.
Who am I to say who are the best sellers?
There are a few who I try to make sure get in. I will give them a call if the tables are about to sell out and I haven't heard from them.
If I ran a record show my objective would be to make the dealers who set up at my show as much money as possible and I don't think attracting the "average" record collector would acheive that.
Of course the more money a dealer makes at a show the more likely other top dealers will want to set up there.
At one time ARC was the benchmark for Record Shows and it was because it attracted the best dealers and the most serious collectors....it appears that WFMU now holds that torch and I doubt they are trying to attract "average collectors".
It seems that you sell to 2 sets of people. Dealers who can pay $5-8 for a decent record and serious collectors who are willing to pay for obscure goodness.
As neither of these people would be average where you are, or any where else, you have no need for the AC.
The record shows I go to typically have a seller or 2 who markets the same way you do. But the majority either market to the AC or to a specific sub set. So for most dealers in these parts getting the AC in the door is important.
Every market is different. What I have seen of Tucson and Phoenix leads me to believe that there is no AC there. Just a small handful of fanatics, some who will pay $$$, most who are looking for cheapness.
Has there even been an Record show/Fair that paired up with Audio equipment?
Like turntables, mixers, speakers and shit?
People have suggested that I pair with the antique phonograph people. (no thanks)
Others have suggested I pair with the audiophile club.
Is this a good idea? What I know of these people is that when it comes to records they are unbelievably finicky and cheap. These are the people who are reading the liner notes of every Fantasy jazz 2fer while you are waiting to get in the bin. Tell me if I am wrong.
If I ran a record show my objective would be to make the dealers who set up at my show as much money as possible and I don't think attracting the "average" record collector would acheive that.
Of course the more money a dealer makes at a show the more likely other top dealers will want to set up there.
At one time ARC was the benchmark for Record Shows and it was because it attracted the best dealers and the most serious collectors....it appears that WFMU now holds that torch and I doubt they are trying to attract "average collectors".
It seems that you sell to 2 sets of people. Dealers who can pay $5-8 for a decent record and serious collectors who are willing to pay for obscure goodness.
As neither of these people would be average where you are, or any where else, you have no need for the AC.
The record shows I go to typically have a seller or 2 who markets the same way you do. But the majority either market to the AC or to a specific sub set. So for most dealers in these parts getting the AC in the door is important.
Every market is different. What I have seen of Tucson and Phoenix leads me to believe that there is no AC there. Just a small handful of fanatics, some who will pay $$$, most who are looking for cheapness.
Seems that every place is different.
Back when we had local Dallas shows I would bring records for the AC....3-5 buck classic rock either sealed or in shrink.....Sabbath, Foriegner, Journey....and I did OK......not great........ In a town where we have 17 HPB that all have fifty cent and dollar bins the AC doesn't need to spend five bucks admission to buy that stuff. hence, the shows died here and the few attempts to resurrect them have failed.
I admit that everyplace is unique....being good friends with Craig Green for many years I know you have a very unique scene as well. The record co-op caters to the AC and you have more Record Stores in a square block area than in all of Dallas.
I travel and dig a lot.....one of the reasons I can do this is that records throughout most of the country are cheap. A record that sells in "Boutique" Store in NYC for $5.00 - $8.00 only fetches $1.00 - $3.00 in places like Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Alabama, etc., etc.
Even though it's recognized that more people are buying used vinyl now than almost anytime in the past, most of the Record Shows have died. I know there are a lot of reasons for this with one of the big ones is that your average AC's would rather buy 5 LP's for a buck a piece than pay admission.
Places like NY, Cali and even Portland are unique when it comes to record collecting.....IMO.
It's a shame to hear that ARC is dying. I had not heard that until today.
I think each cities record scene is an expression of the local record stores. I have seen cities with just a few high priced stores. They tend to have few of the kind of AC we have here. The thrifts tend to be stripped in those places because shopping at the record stores would be stupid. But they also, I think, have few people interested in records.
Other cities like Dallas (and Minneapolis back in the 90s) where large stores have records cheap, tend to have lots of people interested in records.
Portland we have the perfect storm, a long tradition of used record stores, lots of young hipsters, lots of quality record stores, fairly priced records.
I would actually contend that the crusties combing fleas and thrifts for $1 bin shit are not "average" at all. We don't have HPB... I can't speak to that. But in NYC I think an "average" record buyer wants to go into a shop and buy an average record for the same price a used CD or - at most - a new release might run them. Then they want to go about their lives.
Exactly. The average record buyer is an ex-average CD buyer who has graduated to the next level of collecting and expects to pay $10 for a decent LP.
Records are never at my table for more than 3-4 shows. Ones that don't sell get discounted 30-50% and put back for the next show. Anything that didn't sell for $3-4 goes to the Dollar Bin. Anything left in the Dollar bin after the show gets donated. All records are 1/2 price of marked during the last 2 hours of the show. A lot of the other sellers come to my table during the 1/2 price sale to buy good deals. I get a lot of the average collectors because I've got $1-15 known dylan, psych, marvin gaye, smiths, talking heads, stones, etc.
It keeps me happy because I get a lot of turnover, and the customers are happy and returning to my table because they are getting good deals on fresh stock.
I had some rare jazz last show that I was really leery about bringing. The average collector doesn't give a crap about $20-200 jazz. I was shocked because I sold almost all of it.
We???re talking about the average record buyer???who is average seller at this point?
The shows I go to, I get the feeling that only about half of them do this for a living (let???s say like Rock and Jonny do) - they are out there constantly buying and refreshing/replenishing.
But there are a whole bunch of people who show up with the same boxes every show because they are trying to make a bit of money off shit they are trying to clean off their shelves. I know, because I have been that person. But I was too embarrassed to show up after the second time in as many years with basically the same records. It???s like a DJ playing the same set/predictable 20 songs at their night.
Whether or not average people are interested in record swaps, apparently someone at the Gap thinks average people are interested in dressing their kids like someone who is interested in record swaps.
Fortunately they don't know that in real life that person is more likely to look like this:
Since this thread originally appeared, now it seems like vinyl is the big retro item of the moment, with CDs becoming semi-forgotten. Some of the observations here have dated, but that's what makes this conversation interesting. Wonder if Laser Wolf or anyone else still here still feel the same way they did four years ago.
This is a great thread. Shows have changed but the suggestions observations here are still mostly true.
For this thread, today, I would describe the Average Buyer as the type of person who will pay $15-20 for Fleetwood Mac.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Not that this thread had anything to do with it, but I can't even tell you the number of times that I've had free beer at record stores the past few years. Best idea ever!
Comments
No question...the reason I do well @ ARC...and by well I mean we sell 50% of what we bring, is because every time it's completely new stuff...never been at a show before ever...this is a key to success for sure.
But you're the exception and not the typical rule no? And this was what was brought up. Too many dealers won't do this. But how can you get these guys to change?
Is it just the dealers that have to change? If they don't have the stock/turn-over, they just don't have it.
Maybe shows need to be less frequent and/or organizers need to stop having the same folks with the same 10 boxes of the same promo rap 12s and beat up jazz funk.
Agreed
I need at least 6 months to put together a table of new stuff and I dig more than most folks....probably too much.
I can't tell you how many dealers I've seen fade away into obscurity because they didn't turn their stock or keep up with what is selling vs. what's deader than dead stock.
I think this "average buyer" is very similar everywhere. They want staple records that have been considered cool for decades. The average buyer I encountered in Austin was less finicky and spent more than the average buyer in LA/SF. I don't know how the record economy of the city of Austin compares to the rest of Texas but records in general seemed a little more expensive than here in California. I had been told this was the case ahead of time but it still seemed a little odd. CA can go head to head with anywhere in terms of cheapskate sub-dollar grippers. But these people are far from normal if you ask me.
J*ff,
What was your impression as a first time attendee to ARC?
Would you say there was a high % of "average" record collectors there?
What % of your sales were to the "average" record collectors vs. dealers / deep collectors?
In my view Austin is a very record centric city that supports more vinyl stores than most places.
A real indicator would be how many of the regular customers of those shops actually attend ARC.
I've been told by Antones that very few of their regulars attend but would love to hear from other Austin store owners who post here.
JP....Those regulars at your store who buy $5 commons, do many of them go to WFMU?
The Eugene Show is a great show for bringing in the "average" record buyer.
I mean a person, who treats records as a commodity, like bread or a pair of socks.
This person is not going to get up early. In Eugene the room fills up in the afternoon even though it starts at 10am and the sharks are swimming before I get there at 6am.
All our average guy wants is to buy average records at average prices. In Eugene that means between $3-15.
Some of these average folks have a specialty. Blues, Grateful Dead, Ska, and are willing to go over $15 for the right record. But they mostly buy stuff that retails in the 3-15 range.
This person tends not try to talk down the price.
There is also most other kinds of buyers in the room. But the bulk are these average buyers.
The same is true, to a lesser degree at the Night Owl Record Show. The show is most crowded an hour or 2 after it starts and people still are coming in and buying in the last hour. Because they enjoy shopping for records, but are not fiending, and do not organize their life around record shows.
I have been to plenty of shows that are mostly, dealers selling to dealers and a handful of obsessive compulsive collectors. To me they are not good shows.
In theory the shitty dealers should not be setting up every time. In theory their stock is overpriced/not up to snuff/unorganized/poorly displayed. But they must be doing well enough to make hauling those records around and paying table fees worthwhile.
I have resisted curating the sellers at Night Owl Record Show.
First come first serve. It's a fairness thing.
Also, you never know when crusty dude will come up.
More importantly, the guy who specializes in the biggest names in classic rock does really well. So does the guy who specializes in avant 80s rock and the guy who does soul/jazz and the guy who does 50s jazz and vocals and the guy who does country and $1 records. They do well because there are buyers for their stuff.
Who am I to say who are the best sellers?
There are a few who I try to make sure get in. I will give them a call if the tables are about to sell out and I haven't heard from them.
It seems that you sell to 2 sets of people. Dealers who can pay $5-8 for a decent record and serious collectors who are willing to pay for obscure goodness.
As neither of these people would be average where you are, or any where else, you have no need for the AC.
The record shows I go to typically have a seller or 2 who markets the same way you do. But the majority either market to the AC or to a specific sub set. So for most dealers in these parts getting the AC in the door is important.
Every market is different. What I have seen of Tucson and Phoenix leads me to believe that there is no AC there. Just a small handful of fanatics, some who will pay $$$, most who are looking for cheapness.
Seems that every place is different.
People have suggested that I pair with the antique phonograph people. (no thanks)
Others have suggested I pair with the audiophile club.
Is this a good idea? What I know of these people is that when it comes to records they are unbelievably finicky and cheap. These are the people who are reading the liner notes of every Fantasy jazz 2fer while you are waiting to get in the bin. Tell me if I am wrong.
Back when we had local Dallas shows I would bring records for the AC....3-5 buck classic rock either sealed or in shrink.....Sabbath, Foriegner, Journey....and I did OK......not great........ In a town where we have 17 HPB that all have fifty cent and dollar bins the AC doesn't need to spend five bucks admission to buy that stuff. hence, the shows died here and the few attempts to resurrect them have failed.
I admit that everyplace is unique....being good friends with Craig Green for many years I know you have a very unique scene as well. The record co-op caters to the AC and you have more Record Stores in a square block area than in all of Dallas.
I travel and dig a lot.....one of the reasons I can do this is that records throughout most of the country are cheap. A record that sells in "Boutique" Store in NYC for $5.00 - $8.00 only fetches $1.00 - $3.00 in places like Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Alabama, etc., etc.
Even though it's recognized that more people are buying used vinyl now than almost anytime in the past, most of the Record Shows have died. I know there are a lot of reasons for this with one of the big ones is that your average AC's would rather buy 5 LP's for a buck a piece than pay admission.
Places like NY, Cali and even Portland are unique when it comes to record collecting.....IMO.
I think each cities record scene is an expression of the local record stores. I have seen cities with just a few high priced stores. They tend to have few of the kind of AC we have here. The thrifts tend to be stripped in those places because shopping at the record stores would be stupid. But they also, I think, have few people interested in records.
Other cities like Dallas (and Minneapolis back in the 90s) where large stores have records cheap, tend to have lots of people interested in records.
Portland we have the perfect storm, a long tradition of used record stores, lots of young hipsters, lots of quality record stores, fairly priced records.
ARC has been dying for a while and I've posted that here....if you want to go you better go now before it is no more.
He claims there is no other show like it anywhere or at anytime
Even ARC in it's prime was not as crowded and hectic.
He confirmed that a lot of the customers were AC looking for 10-15 dollar records.
He also said I was spoiled because those $10-$15 records were dollar bin commons down here.
Exactly. The average record buyer is an ex-average CD buyer who has graduated to the next level of collecting and expects to pay $10 for a decent LP.
Records are never at my table for more than 3-4 shows. Ones that don't sell get discounted 30-50% and put back for the next show. Anything that didn't sell for $3-4 goes to the Dollar Bin. Anything left in the Dollar bin after the show gets donated. All records are 1/2 price of marked during the last 2 hours of the show. A lot of the other sellers come to my table during the 1/2 price sale to buy good deals. I get a lot of the average collectors because I've got $1-15 known dylan, psych, marvin gaye, smiths, talking heads, stones, etc.
It keeps me happy because I get a lot of turnover, and the customers are happy and returning to my table because they are getting good deals on fresh stock.
I had some rare jazz last show that I was really leery about bringing. The average collector doesn't give a crap about $20-200 jazz. I was shocked because I sold almost all of it.
The shows I go to, I get the feeling that only about half of them do this for a living (let???s say like Rock and Jonny do) - they are out there constantly buying and refreshing/replenishing.
But there are a whole bunch of people who show up with the same boxes every show because they are trying to make a bit of money off shit they are trying to clean off their shelves. I know, because I have been that person. But I was too embarrassed to show up after the second time in as many years with basically the same records. It???s like a DJ playing the same set/predictable 20 songs at their night.
Woah....I do NOT do this for a living....just have a terrible addiction.......... but I hold down a regular and pretty serious 9-5 gig.
(you get my drift though...)
S'cool....I can't imagine doing this for a living....gotta be tough and I admire those who do it well.
what is ARC? some kind of welding tool?
Yo RAJ, whats the story on this dude?
Austin Record Convention.
Whether or not average people are interested in record swaps, apparently someone at the Gap thinks average people are interested in dressing their kids like someone who is interested in record swaps.
Fortunately they don't know that in real life that person is more likely to look like this:
I still feel
This is a great thread. Shows have changed but the suggestions observations here are still mostly true.
For this thread, today, I would describe the Average Buyer as the type of person who will pay $15-20 for Fleetwood Mac.