i'm actually sort of surprised that some serious record people here won't go to conventions becuase of the atmosphere, etc... i don't think i've ever walked away from show without a pile of goodness. sure there is always goign to be astrong crusty element but you can come up big time.
That's the biggest reason why I keep going. There have been conventions where I scored incredible records for next to nothing & that keeps me motivated to go back. I must admit that I am getting pretty stringent on my buying habits now as well so I might not be the best person to critique any of this.
It's also true that having these things start very early on a Saturday is a big deterrent for people with a life per se. I mean, you have to plan the whole thing in advance & make a conscious choice not to go out the night before under the pretext that you're going to a "convention" which in itself is somewhat unappealing to the average joe.
so i think the answers are pretty much all there. customers arent coming because they dont like what youre peddling and/or how youre peddling
i used to be real into shows.. and i had the energy and goofball priorities to always try to be there early as sin. i'm kinda wit h jp these days...i dont go as much.
These are great suggestions, but I feel that genuinely nothing will bring the casual record collector to a show. Nothing.
Yo A!
Just a thought (And I'm sure this idea has some big issues).
Have you ever tried to work with the people at Kensington Market for say one of the Pedestrian Sundays? I would see if they were willing to work with you and give you the tail end of the route (The end near college being better IMO). Where say, you held an outdoor record fair with 40+ dealers, but it also tied in with the whole area being just for pedestrians. Promote heavily with the regular channels and then have the walk thru traffic and street action tied into the mix. There could be a lot of good benefits IMO. The only major downside is the possible rain out. But I think if the weather worked out, it would be great.
These are great suggestions, but I feel that genuinely nothing will bring the casual record collector to a show. Nothing.
Yo A!
Just a thought (And I'm sure this idea has some big issues).
Have you ever tried to work with the people at Kensington Market for say one of the Pedestrian Sundays? I would see if they were willing to work with you and give you the tail end of the route (The end near college being better IMO). Where say, you held an outdoor record fair with 40+ dealers, but it also tied in with the whole area being just for pedestrians. Promote heavily with the regular channels and then have the walk thru traffic and street action tied into the mix. There could be a lot of good benefits IMO. The only major downside is the possible rain out. But I think if the weather worked out, it would be great.
Anyways, just throwing out random thoughts
Hope all is well with you.
That's actually a very good suggestion. The fundamentals of a record show changing.... well that just won't happen. Changing what a record show IS.... now that is really where I think success in getting new clientele could be. The Kensington idea is a great one. Thanks so very much. I'll be in contact with you about that.
It's been mentioned earlier that the successful new shows as far as getting new people out are those that reinvent the show idea altogether, what with hipster crafts, DJs and the like. I can see myself taking part in these more and more as time goes by.
Asking these dudes to recommend records and interact with the general public is kind of ignoring the problem. These are not the type of dudes that are going to have fluid, successful interactions with normal people.
Things that would make me start going to more record shows (and jesus I own a record store I *should* be going to these shows!)
First, later start time, 8am early admission on a Sunday is not going to get it done. Matter of fact, dead the tiered "early entry" bullshit. While we're at it, (try to) dead the early load-in "dealer-on-dealer" action that leaves few remaining gems for the paying customers. Food/beer is a big plus. DJs. More party, less grip. Get young, casual collectors to buy tables or team up. This brings new stock into the mix, usually the prices are way more fair, and they can sometimes even carry a conversation. Better promotion. Better venues... some of the shows do this well but others are at the same old hotel conference rooms.
If you're thinking of throwing a show, perhaps consider curating the dealers themselves. If a dude keeps bringing the same wack shit, tell them to step up or step off. Actively court guys that can bring cool stock. This, to me, is the life or death of a record fair. Selling at your local fair is not an inalienable right. Some of these dudes totally harsh the entire event and ruin it for the average customer.
A lot of good ideas were put forward in this thread. However, I think people *really* need to think about what a Record Fair looks like to the average, casual record buyer. People are not going to these record stores to leave empty handed. Everyone (dealers and collectors included) want to find records they want at prices below what they think they're worth. Whether this is for the grip or the flip, it's all the same.
Nevertheless, here is what a record fair looks like to your average person:
- Tonnes of records
- Little categorization (at the table/dealer level)
- Organization is way off (different boxes, ugly sleeves, etc.)
- Wayyyyyyy too many records
- Disorienting
- Busy
- Expensive
- Overwhelming
If you want a successful record fair, you need to cater it to the average buyer. The collector is going to go to whatever they can go to; whether it's a well-curated event or a barn-yard full of moldy dealers. They will be there.
I would suggest:
- Ensure every single person leaves there thinking they've "scored" or got a great deal (this will ensure they come back)
- Ensure stock is fresh, clean, and well-priced
- Ensure people "believe" that if they don't go, they are "missing out."
- Ensure there are records for everyone, and that it's easy to find them (this is a design / layout issue)
Many of these points have been addressed by Rich, but I think the overall organization and presentation of the fairs need to be talked about:
- More space
- Less tables
- Clean sleeves on all records
- Ensure there is a social area (not a social ghetto like the two-boots carnival at FMU) where people can chat about their finds.
- Ensure records are properly marked for prices (or boxes for that matter).
- Group like-minded dealers together in blocks
- No bullshit
The goal is to get the fair to a point where a casual buyer comes in, they look around, feel comfortable, feel like they can sink their teeth in and find some records that are special to them without having to throw elbows, dig through a bunch of bullshit junk, and deal with the dreggs of humanity.
These two, combined with a good location (near or in shopping centres fi), maybe stuff to do for kids maybe, could bring casual buyers as well as couples. If the female wants to join because of clothing, you might have a good combo.
Worse combo i've seen: Records + Gothic fare. These people don't buy records, and record collectors don't dress up like that.
Why the combo?
I don't go to record conventions because the only records I need from dealers are libraries & soundtracks. I have every other base covered. People are absolutely insane with the pricing of ost's & libs. I hate to sound like a curmudgeon but I remember buying the drama suites from Academy in like 2001 for 25 bucks a piece? Finding a deal on either or these days is like mining for gold. Craigs List >>>>>
The goal is to get the fair to a point where a casual buyer comes in, they look around, feel comfortable, feel like they can sink their teeth in and find some records that are special to them without having to throw elbows, dig through a bunch of bullshit junk, and deal with the dreggs of humanity.
This is such a simple concept & it's so frustrating to see most dealers basically do the exact opposite. Shows seem to always bring out the worst mix of clueless old men with prehistoric taste & a new breed of equally troubling younger dealers. And unfortunately these are the guys who are super aggressive, buy up 4 tables, and take a huge steamy dump on every single record show. They get there at the crack of dawn with the same records they've been carting out for the past 10 years and then they mill about complaining they can't find or sell anything anymore. But they'll still be the first people to take up space at the next show. It's like a fucking cancer.
Been thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that only ONE person would want the "average" record collector coming to a Record Show.....the guy who runs the show and wants to collect as much admission $$ as possible.
I think the reason this is even debateable is because we haven't really defined who the "average" collector is.
Recently one of the HPB in the D/FW area had a special "Nine To Midnight" sale where they put out over 3,000 LP's at $0.25 each. When the clock struck 9:00 there were between 30 - 40 people there to buy records....I knew a grand total of 3 of them.
As someone who digs 4-5 times a week and have been doing so for 30 years I know every serious record collector/dealer/digger in D/FW....so who the hell were these 30 some odd folks piling up LP's @ 4 for a buck?
They were your AVERAGE RECORD COLLECTOR.
And quite frankly, I don't want these people at a Record Show where I set up.....only a fool would bring records to a show that these folks would buy. Selling only Dollar Bin records at a show will barely pay for your table fee.
I only attend one record show and that's ARC.....In my estimation there is well over $100K spent on records at every ARC.
80% of this is spent by dealers who either have shops or run mailorder/internet businesses looking for titles and genres they specialize in and have customers for.
15% is spent by serious collectors who have the time and patience to do the digging that these other store owners are doing for their customers.....these collectors are just cutting out the "middle man".
And MAYBE 5% of the money is spent by "Average Collectors"
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
Unless of course you make your money on admission fees.
I think the tougher question is how do you get good dealers to a new record show? Memphis had a show back in May and the hard thing was getting dealers to come. I approached some of the dealers I know from around the country and everyone one of them said "I'll come to buy and if it seems like a good show, I'll come set up and sell next year." Well, that really doesn't help in putting on a good show that will ensure that the dealers come next year. So the show was ok at best, but it was a situation where there were plenty of people with cash, but only a few tables set up, more money willing to be spent than records to buy...don't even know if the dealers that did come will come next year. So it is a chicken or the egg question...plenty of customers, but no records and the people with records won't come because there were not many records to buy. A conundrum.
The fact is, now more than ever, there is no such thing as an "average collector", so trying to woo them is a waste of time. Any subset of collectors you can identify probably doesn't make up more than 15% of the record buying demographic at most.
The main problem with shows is almost entirely the shitty dealers that have been discussed above. As long as they are the norm, shows will be what they are. I've never heard of a show turning a dealer away because their records were overpriced or not up to snuff.
The other problem is that it is getting harder and harder to find the sexy records, and no amount of planning is going to change that. Filling a large space with awesome records at good prices is pretty much impossible these days. Deal.
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
But wasn't the point to just get these average guys in the door? Which might have them catch the bug and possibly turn them into more than average buyers?
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
But wasn't the point to just get these average guys in the door? Which might have them catch the bug and possibly turn them into more than average buyers?
We were talking about this at the WFMU party at my spot. You got a dude who just wants to buy Neil Young "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere" and crusty dealerdude is like, "ehhhh.... $18." Cut that price by half (or 2/3, really) and you hook a kid for life. Instead, you tell them to kick rocks and perpetuate the stereotype of this hobby being full of grumpy, grippy grandpas.
On the other hand, every time I stick a clean copy of that LP in my bins for less than $8, Euro-dealer-man is snapping it up to bring back to his bunk ass shop where it will be marked up to 19eu. And the kid just starting out thinks all I sell is $30 titles that he's never heard of.
While the label is repressing the entire catalog at $24.99 180g entry point. What a larf.
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
But wasn't the point to just get these average guys in the door? Which might have them catch the bug and possibly turn them into more than average buyers?
In my experience you don't "get the bug" at a Record Show.....you only go to a Record Show once you've caught the bug.
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
But wasn't the point to just get these average guys in the door? Which might have them catch the bug and possibly turn them into more than average buyers?
In my experience you don't "get the bug" at a Record Show.....you only go to a Record Show once you've caught the bug.
I understand that. But the idea is to get people who might never buy records or the average buyer more interested.
That's why I put out my idea to tuneup. Using a venue which could have crossover traffic that you could totally see future record collectors in.
IMO, one of the best way to gain new collectors is through friends. I've seen countless times where it's the relationship of someone who is into records and a friend catches the bug by just being around them and getting interested.
Even this weekend. The idea I said to Tuneup... I was at this thing called Pedestrian Sundays. Where they close down a part of the city and open it up to just pedestrian and IMO, it's just the type of people I could see getting into buying records. I was walking through and there is always one guy selling records. I was looking through and listening to this one guy (Who was just walking through with friends enjoying everything going on) explain to his friend about a certain record and you could just see the guy's eyes getting bigger and more interested and he asked his friend if record collecting was expensive and the dude says, not if you know what you're doing.
Is the goal to get more people interested and open up things making it better for everyone? Or just to get the few people already into it happier?
There's a little bit of talking past one another going on here.
At WFMU there are a ton of "average" record buyers. And by that I mean, not dealers, not international shopowners, not mega-grail-seeking raer collectros. Just regular folks that buy records. Could be looking for $60 soul, could be looking for $8 Sabbath. If this buyership is only 5% of the take at Austin, no wonder the show is dying.
These folks may never be persuaded to go to a 6am show on the outskirts of town, but they certainly come to the slightly-more-informal shows that have started to pop up at local pubs/spaces.
I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be courted. From behind my shop's counter, they spend as much money, cumulatively, as the great collectros/ebay dealers/shop owners (in 2011). Maybe not the way the shows are currently structured; but if the persistent problem is that it's getting harder and harder to find rare records, why not engage a customer base that is happy to buy your average Clash, Blue Cheer, Aretha, Public Enemy, and Otis Redding?
Comments
It's also true that having these things start very early on a Saturday is a big deterrent for people with a life per se. I mean, you have to plan the whole thing in advance & make a conscious choice not to go out the night before under the pretext that you're going to a "convention" which in itself is somewhat unappealing to the average joe.
It's not that you can't score. It's that it's become less and less worth it over the years.
You rarely smell your own B.O. and are always the last one to know you have it.
The best record shows are the ones where clueless dealers sell mega-raers for pennies.
Most of you will quit collecting records once you hit 40 for fear of being called "old and crusty".
i used to be real into shows.. and i had the energy and goofball priorities to always try to be there early as sin. i'm kinda wit h jp these days...i dont go as much.
Yo A!
Just a thought (And I'm sure this idea has some big issues).
Have you ever tried to work with the people at Kensington Market for say one of the Pedestrian Sundays? I would see if they were willing to work with you and give you the tail end of the route (The end near college being better IMO). Where say, you held an outdoor record fair with 40+ dealers, but it also tied in with the whole area being just for pedestrians. Promote heavily with the regular channels and then have the walk thru traffic and street action tied into the mix. There could be a lot of good benefits IMO. The only major downside is the possible rain out. But I think if the weather worked out, it would be great.
Anyways, just throwing out random thoughts
Hope all is well with you.
That's actually a very good suggestion. The fundamentals of a record show changing.... well that just won't happen. Changing what a record show IS.... now that is really where I think success in getting new clientele could be. The Kensington idea is a great one. Thanks so very much. I'll be in contact with you about that.
It's been mentioned earlier that the successful new shows as far as getting new people out are those that reinvent the show idea altogether, what with hipster crafts, DJs and the like. I can see myself taking part in these more and more as time goes by.
this.......
so if you have the funding/budget give those folks something to do while erryone else copps records.
the comic con aint about comics anymore.
- spidey
Record show killa
he's looking kindof old there. damn
i think he's pretty much banned from most shows and establishments anyway
Nevertheless, here is what a record fair looks like to your average person:
- Tonnes of records
- Little categorization (at the table/dealer level)
- Organization is way off (different boxes, ugly sleeves, etc.)
- Wayyyyyyy too many records
- Disorienting
- Busy
- Expensive
- Overwhelming
If you want a successful record fair, you need to cater it to the average buyer. The collector is going to go to whatever they can go to; whether it's a well-curated event or a barn-yard full of moldy dealers. They will be there.
I would suggest:
- Ensure every single person leaves there thinking they've "scored" or got a great deal (this will ensure they come back)
- Ensure stock is fresh, clean, and well-priced
- Ensure people "believe" that if they don't go, they are "missing out."
- Ensure there are records for everyone, and that it's easy to find them (this is a design / layout issue)
Many of these points have been addressed by Rich, but I think the overall organization and presentation of the fairs need to be talked about:
- More space
- Less tables
- Clean sleeves on all records
- Ensure there is a social area (not a social ghetto like the two-boots carnival at FMU) where people can chat about their finds.
- Ensure records are properly marked for prices (or boxes for that matter).
- Group like-minded dealers together in blocks
- No bullshit
The goal is to get the fair to a point where a casual buyer comes in, they look around, feel comfortable, feel like they can sink their teeth in and find some records that are special to them without having to throw elbows, dig through a bunch of bullshit junk, and deal with the dreggs of humanity.
- DJs indoors and outdoors
- Clothing vendors
- Free entry
- Bar
- One or two dealers consistently bring nice records
- Proximity to dope Chinese food
Worse combo i've seen: Records + Gothic fare. These people don't buy records, and record collectors don't dress up like that.
Why the combo?
This is such a simple concept & it's so frustrating to see most dealers basically do the exact opposite. Shows seem to always bring out the worst mix of clueless old men with prehistoric taste & a new breed of equally troubling younger dealers. And unfortunately these are the guys who are super aggressive, buy up 4 tables, and take a huge steamy dump on every single record show. They get there at the crack of dawn with the same records they've been carting out for the past 10 years and then they mill about complaining they can't find or sell anything anymore. But they'll still be the first people to take up space at the next show. It's like a fucking cancer.
I doubt Academy itself would sell those records for those prices in 2011. No shots at either you or Academy, I'm just saying.
Dudes hold up one great deal they got a decade ago as some paragon for the way the game should be. It's ridiculous.
I didn't find anything outrageously underpriced at this year's WFMU, but it's not like the show was therefore not worth attending.
Like turntables, mixers, speakers and shit?
I think the reason this is even debateable is because we haven't really defined who the "average" collector is.
Recently one of the HPB in the D/FW area had a special "Nine To Midnight" sale where they put out over 3,000 LP's at $0.25 each. When the clock struck 9:00 there were between 30 - 40 people there to buy records....I knew a grand total of 3 of them.
As someone who digs 4-5 times a week and have been doing so for 30 years I know every serious record collector/dealer/digger in D/FW....so who the hell were these 30 some odd folks piling up LP's @ 4 for a buck?
They were your AVERAGE RECORD COLLECTOR.
And quite frankly, I don't want these people at a Record Show where I set up.....only a fool would bring records to a show that these folks would buy. Selling only Dollar Bin records at a show will barely pay for your table fee.
I only attend one record show and that's ARC.....In my estimation there is well over $100K spent on records at every ARC.
80% of this is spent by dealers who either have shops or run mailorder/internet businesses looking for titles and genres they specialize in and have customers for.
15% is spent by serious collectors who have the time and patience to do the digging that these other store owners are doing for their customers.....these collectors are just cutting out the "middle man".
And MAYBE 5% of the money is spent by "Average Collectors"
The question shouldn't be how do you get more "Average" collectors through the door...it should be how do I get more dealers and "Serious" collectors through the door.
Unless of course you make your money on admission fees.
The main problem with shows is almost entirely the shitty dealers that have been discussed above. As long as they are the norm, shows will be what they are. I've never heard of a show turning a dealer away because their records were overpriced or not up to snuff.
The other problem is that it is getting harder and harder to find the sexy records, and no amount of planning is going to change that. Filling a large space with awesome records at good prices is pretty much impossible these days. Deal.
But wasn't the point to just get these average guys in the door? Which might have them catch the bug and possibly turn them into more than average buyers?
But I bought Eddie Fisher & The Next 100 Years at your shop for $13 in '98! :balla:
We were talking about this at the WFMU party at my spot. You got a dude who just wants to buy Neil Young "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere" and crusty dealerdude is like, "ehhhh.... $18." Cut that price by half (or 2/3, really) and you hook a kid for life. Instead, you tell them to kick rocks and perpetuate the stereotype of this hobby being full of grumpy, grippy grandpas.
On the other hand, every time I stick a clean copy of that LP in my bins for less than $8, Euro-dealer-man is snapping it up to bring back to his bunk ass shop where it will be marked up to 19eu. And the kid just starting out thinks all I sell is $30 titles that he's never heard of.
While the label is repressing the entire catalog at $24.99 180g entry point. What a larf.
Game's all fucked up.
In my experience you don't "get the bug" at a Record Show.....you only go to a Record Show once you've caught the bug.
I understand that. But the idea is to get people who might never buy records or the average buyer more interested.
That's why I put out my idea to tuneup. Using a venue which could have crossover traffic that you could totally see future record collectors in.
IMO, one of the best way to gain new collectors is through friends. I've seen countless times where it's the relationship of someone who is into records and a friend catches the bug by just being around them and getting interested.
Even this weekend. The idea I said to Tuneup... I was at this thing called Pedestrian Sundays. Where they close down a part of the city and open it up to just pedestrian and IMO, it's just the type of people I could see getting into buying records. I was walking through and there is always one guy selling records. I was looking through and listening to this one guy (Who was just walking through with friends enjoying everything going on) explain to his friend about a certain record and you could just see the guy's eyes getting bigger and more interested and he asked his friend if record collecting was expensive and the dude says, not if you know what you're doing.
Is the goal to get more people interested and open up things making it better for everyone? Or just to get the few people already into it happier?
At WFMU there are a ton of "average" record buyers. And by that I mean, not dealers, not international shopowners, not mega-grail-seeking raer collectros. Just regular folks that buy records. Could be looking for $60 soul, could be looking for $8 Sabbath. If this buyership is only 5% of the take at Austin, no wonder the show is dying.
These folks may never be persuaded to go to a 6am show on the outskirts of town, but they certainly come to the slightly-more-informal shows that have started to pop up at local pubs/spaces.
I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be courted. From behind my shop's counter, they spend as much money, cumulatively, as the great collectros/ebay dealers/shop owners (in 2011). Maybe not the way the shows are currently structured; but if the persistent problem is that it's getting harder and harder to find rare records, why not engage a customer base that is happy to buy your average Clash, Blue Cheer, Aretha, Public Enemy, and Otis Redding?