Is the goal to get more people interested and open up things making it better for everyone? Or just to get the few people already into it happier?
Not sure....based on the original post I think it's how to get people who are already interested, your "average collector", to come to a Record Show.
If the objective is to get more people interested and create more "average collectors" I don't think any of my ideas will work.
If I ran a record show my objective would be to make the dealers who set up at my show as much money as possible and I don't think attracting the "average" record collector would acheive that.
Of course the more money a dealer makes at a show the more likely other top dealers will want to set up there.
At one time ARC was the benchmark for Record Shows and it was because it attracted the best dealers and the most serious collectors....it appears that WFMU now holds that torch and I doubt they are trying to attract "average collectors".
There's a little bit of talking past one another going on here.
At WFMU there are a ton of "average" record buyers. And by that I mean, not dealers, not international shopowners, not mega-grail-seeking raer collectros. Just regular folks that buy records. Could be looking for $60 soul, could be looking for $8 Sabbath. If this buyership is only 5% of the take at Austin, no wonder the show is dying.
I think the main problem with the discussion is the definition of "average".
By "average" I tend to think "majority" and the majority of people who buy records would NEVER spend sixty bucks on an LP.
If my local lesson is accurate the "average" record buyer is looking for dollar records...and I'm sure there are not many of those at ARC or FMU.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Average collector isn't going to spend any more than $5 admission. But then by that time, dealers and serious collectors have already forked over for their $25 early admission and cleaned out the bins of 95% of anything good. And even if average collector did pony up for early admission, they don't really want to be competitively jockeying for records with the biggest nerds on the planet.
There were definitely the kind of people buying in Austin that I think we're talking about and they were super psyched to buy $10 Neil Young. There were cute 20 something year old girls paying $40 for Hawkwind records & shit. I was floored. There just seemed to be relatively few dealers catering to them.
it appears that WFMU now holds that torch and I doubt they are trying to attract "average collectors".
I just posted about this. That's totally incorrect. WFMU tries to, and does, attract "average collectors".
It's just our definitions of "average" are different.
Like I said earlier, it was a big eye opener for me to see 30-40 folks who I had never seen before scooping up LP's at 4 for a buck....I don't think there are that many people here in D/FW that would spend 10 bucks on an LP let alone $60.
If by "average" you're talking about a guy who will buy a stack $8 dollar records at an FMU then I agree with you 100%.
I might have a unique perspective as I ONLY sell $8.00 records @ ARC(which become $5.00 if you buy more than a few) and I can tell you that 90% of my sales are to people who are going to grip and flip.
There were definitely the kind of people buying in Austin that I think we're talking about and they were super psyched to buy $10 Neil Young. There were cute 20 something year old girls paying $40 for Hawkwind records & shit. I was floored. There just seemed to be relatively few dealers catering to them.
this is exactly what I mean.
The dealers don't clear out "everything good." They clear out "everything underpriced". And if you want to swim with the sharks, you got to get in the deep end. But in no way does that mean that the "average" dude doesn't have shit to buy. I saw people buying shit all weekend that was far too pricey for me, but not for them. That's fine.
Rockadelic said:
I think the main problem with the discussion is the definition of "average".
By "average" I tend to think "majority" and the majority of people who buy records would NEVER spend sixty bucks on an LP.
If my local lesson is accurate the "average" record buyer is looking for dollar records...and I'm sure there are not many of those at ARC or FMU.
There's a lot of distance between $1 and $60. I would define "average" as the kind of person that buys records as a hobby but doesn't base their entire life around it. I certainly have customers that I would classify as "average record buyers" who are down to spend $40 on something. So OK, take it down from $60 to $40.
Even then, the majority of record buyers might never spend $60 on an LP, but some of them will eventually graduate to that. That's the whole friggin' point. I just had a guy that buys Allman Bros and Otis Redding ask about some rare Cuban funk that was on in the store the other day. He's into it. He'll get there.
And my overarching point is that record dealers - and shows - should WANT dudes that are coming in to buy Queen and Roxy Music. Sure as hell beats trying to wring $6 out of that shit on ebay. Not to mention, as HCrink alluded to, these dudes are hip to more shit these days. Everyone knows who Can is. Everyone is up on the Pretty Things. They may not pony up $200-whatever for a UK "SF Sorrow" but they will buy the shit out of a $20 copy of Parachute. Average record buyer knows about Cymande and Fela. Not to mention dumb shit like mono Stones or whatever. Neil Young "On The Beach" for $30. Averageman is all over it.
I might have a unique perspective as I ONLY sell $8.00 records @ ARC(which become $5.00 if you buy more than a few) and I can tell you that 90% of my sales are to people who are going to grip and flip.
I think that has a lot to do with how you curate it though.
I don't know how ARC works - is there dealer/early admission, and if so, is that when you open your table?
Obviously you have a core group of customers that come to your table.
But you also stock - by your own definition - obscure records and weird/private shit. Averageman is confused and turned off by that. But he will spend $100 at another table that has more easily-identifiable titles.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Jonny_Paycheck said:
The dealers don't clear out "everything good." They clear out "everything underpriced".
The dealers don't clear out "everything good." They clear out "everything underpriced".
Same difference.
Meh. I disagree. There were plenty of tables bustling with activity after the dealers had literally left the building. Not everyone shows up to these joints with tables full of bad decisions. Some dudes know what they're doing and price effectively. Will some stuff move quickly? Of course, it always does. There are records that don't survive three hours in my shop. But I can tell you it's not because I underprice them.
I mean, I don't have to tell you of all people that the interests of bigshot record dealers are in no way the barometer of what is "good" or even "worth buying".
[ Not to mention dumb shit like mono Stones or whatever. Neil Young On The Beach for $30. Averageman is all over it.
We could argue this all day but for every collector that would spend $30 on a Neil Young LP there are 20 that wouldn't spend more than a buck.
So if the "below average" collector is in the majority I think that makes your bar for "average" set pretty high.
We are jaded...we're at the top end of the "game"....looking down we see the $8.00 a pop guy....looking up from our knees in the $0.50 bin the view is different.....But I also saw a guy drop 2 grand on an LP @ ARC and was not shocked.
The average collector sees that as some two house payment insanity.
Well, the TX and NY economies of price are certainly different, and $30 on a record in this town ain't all that much.... but I maintain that the "average collector" that we are talking about here is happy to spend upwards of $50 (cumulatively) on records that every dealer should be happy as a pig in shit to sell, and this is in no way a bad thing for record shows and to get back to the original question, these shows should be courting that customer.
I might have a unique perspective as I ONLY sell $8.00 records @ ARC(which become $5.00 if you buy more than a few) and I can tell you that 90% of my sales are to people who are going to grip and flip.
I think that has a lot to do with how you curate it though.
I don't know how ARC works - is there dealer/early admission, and if so, is that when you open your table?
Obviously you have a core group of customers that come to your table.
But you also stock - by your own definition - obscure records and weird/private shit. Averageman is confused and turned off by that. But he will spend $100 at another table that has more easily-identifiable titles.
If your definition of the "average" collector is a guy that spends $50 - $100 at a Record Show then we agree on this entire topic 100%
You sound disconnected with the average record buyer.
Most of these dudes come in with a $100 budget. They just want 8-15 records for it.
That's not ridiculous. It's totally average.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
As an average collector, I've gone to enough shows at early entry even to know what I'm up against. Maybe if I was still a beginning average collector, I'd be happy with the scraps left after the initial rush. But as someone who has long had his most basic wantlist filled, I find it hard to find any records I'd like to buy during a show's normal operating hours. I mean, I still do find some things here and there, but it's hardly what it used to be. Pretty much nowadays, it's gotta be some new-to-the-show dude selling his collection that's been on ice for x number of years...or it's practically bust.
I think it's easy for people on this forum to lose sight of what "average" or beginning collectors are looking for. Most of us already have fairly complete collections of the classic rock and or soul canons (as we set them), but 20 year old kids are amazed by those records. I know it because I see it every time I show my collection to my younger relatives they freak out over those records, They wouldn't know East Of Underground from Mitch Miller, but show them a Hendrix or Gang Of Four album and they get super excited. If you can find a way to get to those people and make it easy for them to find those types of records without having to dig thru box after box of obscurities I bet you they will buy, and for more than they would spend on ebay too.
You sound incredibly disconnected with the average record buyer.
Most of these dudes come in with a $100 budget. They just want 8-15 records for it.
That's not ridiculous. It's totally average.
Dude.....I contend it's YOU that is disconnected.
You're describing a customer at FMU as "average" when in reality just the fact that they know of and attend a show like that makes him way above average.
What part of the MAJORITY of record buyers are dollar bin fiends are you not getting.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan how many non-dealer folks who do not attend WFMU would be there?
In a Boutique Record Shop 8 bucks may be average....at the Thrift Stores, HPB, etc. it is not.
I know for a fact that the main HPB here in D/FW sells 10x more $0.50 vinyl than they do all other prices combined.
Who are all those people buying that cheap stuff....they're "average" record collectors.
As someone who has a very specific wantlist, I find it hard to find any records I want at a record show. I mean, I still do find some things here and there, but they're nice-to-have records - aka stuff I am not willing to pay more than $20 or so for. I've been average long enough to be where I am willing to spend $60+ for a record, but only if it's on my want list.
Without a doubt, this has A LOT to do with my location. The soul LPs and 45s I want are just not sitting around in people's collections/sell boxes up here.
You're describing a customer at FMU as "average" when in reality just the fact that they know of and attend a show like that makes him way above average.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan how many non-dealer folks who do not attend WFMU would be there?
I think if you came to WFMU you would be pleasantly surprised.
At peak hours during WFMU it is hard to walk around. $1 bin fiends to big time ballers, they're all there. WFMU advertises pretty heavily. Not sure what ARC does, but to everyone I know that attends both shows, there's no comparison. So yes, I contend that plenty of "average" record buyers go to WFMU.
I would actually contend that the crusties combing fleas and thrifts for $1 bin shit are not "average" at all. We don't have HPB... I can't speak to that. But in NYC I think an "average" record buyer wants to go into a shop and buy an average record for the same price a used CD or - at most - a new release might run them. Then they want to go about their lives. I think it's real easy to lose sight of that, as Astro said. David Bowie "Let's Dance" for $3. Fine. Forget the price for a minute. Focus on the behavior.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan, the *only* people that would show up would be dealers. Who do you think goes to estate sales, to (most) record shows, to shop close-outs? Average record buyers would be at dinner, sleeping in, having a drink, at work, etc. To most people it is not that serious. That's why Saturday is so much more active than Friday at WFMU. There are more "average record collectors" that can't be bothered to waste their Friday night on this shit.
I'm just curious. What do people on here think is easier to do?
Sell one $100 record that they paid $5.00 for making $95 profit
or
Selling 25 records that they paid $1.00 each for and selling them at $5.
Edit: I know it all depends on the records. But I just mean on a whole...
It's way easier to find 25 $5 records than 1 $100 record.
Agreed.
But a HELL of a lot easier to sell one $100 record than 25 @ $5.00
Is it? I've had plenty of $100 records sit around because the *right* customer has to walk in. I guess I could put them on ebay, but I don't see that as making it any easier.
$5 records sell all day, to.... you guessed it, average record buyers.
You're describing a customer at FMU as "average" when in reality just the fact that they know of and attend a show like that makes him way above average.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan how many non-dealer folks who do not attend WFMU would be there?
I think if you came to WFMU you would be pleasantly surprised.
At peak hours during WFMU it is hard to walk around. $1 bin fiends to big time ballers, they're all there. WFMU advertises pretty heavily. Not sure what ARC does, but to everyone I know that attends both shows, there's no comparison. So yes, I contend that plenty of "average" record buyers go to WFMU.
I would actually contend that the crusties combing fleas and thrifts for $1 bin shit are not "average" at all. We don't have HPB... I can't speak to that. But in NYC I think an "average" record buyer wants to go into a shop and buy an average record for the same price a used CD or - at most - a new release might run them. Then they want to go about their lives. I think it's real easy to lose sight of that, as Astro said. David Bowie "Let's Dance" for $3. Fine. Forget the price for a minute. Focus on the behavior.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan, the *only* people that would show up would be dealers. Who do you think goes to estate sales, to (most) record shows, to shop close-outs? Average record buyers would be at dinner, sleeping in, having a drink, at work, etc. To most people it is not that serious. That's why Saturday is so much more active than Friday at WFMU. There are more "average record collectors" that can't be bothered to waste their Friday night on this shit.
There is no doubt that the record collector scene in NYC and L.A. is a lot different than the rest of the country.
Your comment about only dealers being at the Dollar Blow-Out says a lot....that would not be the case here. or in most cities I've been to.
That many dealers in one place could certainly turn a Dollar Bin staple into a common $8.00 record.
Yeah, but part of that is just the economy of NYC. $7 beer, $4 tacos, $8 records, $1600 studio apartments.
It is what it is.
I think something you might be missing in your example is how HPB sets up and markets itself. They specialize in cheap records, and if they have a 4/$1 sale, everyone that *already* shops there is gonna go.
Unless the dollar sale in NYC was put on by, say, Academy, the only people that would likely know about it would be dealers/collectors/grippers.
If there was a nameless dollar bin sale in the Bay Area, same result. But if Amoeba said it was clearing out a warehouse, everyone would be there.
Not so much about the sale, but about who's putting it on/promoting it.
I'm just curious. What do people on here think is easier to do?
Sell one $100 record that they paid $5.00 for making $95 profit
or
Selling 25 records that they paid $1.00 each for and selling them at $5.
Edit: I know it all depends on the records. But I just mean on a whole...
It's way easier to find 25 $5 records than 1 $100 record.
Agreed.
But a HELL of a lot easier to sell one $100 record than 25 @ $5.00
Is it? I've had plenty of $100 records sit around because the *right* customer has to walk in. I guess I could put them on ebay, but I don't see that as making it any easier.
$5 records sell all day, to.... you guessed it, average record buyers.
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
Yeah, but part of that is just the economy of NYC. $7 beer, $4 tacos, $8 records, $1600 studio apartments.
It is what it is.
I think something you might be missing in your example is how HPB sets up and markets itself. They specialize in cheap records, and if they have a 4/$1 sale, everyone that *already* shops there is gonna go.
Unless the dollar sale in NYC was put on by, say, Academy, the only people that would likely know about it would be dealers/collectors/grippers.
If there was a nameless dollar bin sale in the Bay Area, same result. But if Amoeba said it was clearing out a warehouse, everyone would be there.
Not so much about the sale, but about who's putting it on/promoting it.
Can we agree that the "average" record buyer in places like NYC and L.A./S.F. are nothing like the average record buyers in the great majority of the country>?
Comments
Not sure....based on the original post I think it's how to get people who are already interested, your "average collector", to come to a Record Show.
If the objective is to get more people interested and create more "average collectors" I don't think any of my ideas will work.
If I ran a record show my objective would be to make the dealers who set up at my show as much money as possible and I don't think attracting the "average" record collector would acheive that.
Of course the more money a dealer makes at a show the more likely other top dealers will want to set up there.
At one time ARC was the benchmark for Record Shows and it was because it attracted the best dealers and the most serious collectors....it appears that WFMU now holds that torch and I doubt they are trying to attract "average collectors".
I just posted about this. That's totally incorrect. WFMU tries to, and does, attract "average collectors".
I think the main problem with the discussion is the definition of "average".
By "average" I tend to think "majority" and the majority of people who buy records would NEVER spend sixty bucks on an LP.
If my local lesson is accurate the "average" record buyer is looking for dollar records...and I'm sure there are not many of those at ARC or FMU.
It's just our definitions of "average" are different.
Like I said earlier, it was a big eye opener for me to see 30-40 folks who I had never seen before scooping up LP's at 4 for a buck....I don't think there are that many people here in D/FW that would spend 10 bucks on an LP let alone $60.
If by "average" you're talking about a guy who will buy a stack $8 dollar records at an FMU then I agree with you 100%.
I might have a unique perspective as I ONLY sell $8.00 records @ ARC(which become $5.00 if you buy more than a few) and I can tell you that 90% of my sales are to people who are going to grip and flip.
this is exactly what I mean.
The dealers don't clear out "everything good." They clear out "everything underpriced". And if you want to swim with the sharks, you got to get in the deep end. But in no way does that mean that the "average" dude doesn't have shit to buy. I saw people buying shit all weekend that was far too pricey for me, but not for them. That's fine.
There's a lot of distance between $1 and $60. I would define "average" as the kind of person that buys records as a hobby but doesn't base their entire life around it. I certainly have customers that I would classify as "average record buyers" who are down to spend $40 on something. So OK, take it down from $60 to $40.
Even then, the majority of record buyers might never spend $60 on an LP, but some of them will eventually graduate to that. That's the whole friggin' point. I just had a guy that buys Allman Bros and Otis Redding ask about some rare Cuban funk that was on in the store the other day. He's into it. He'll get there.
And my overarching point is that record dealers - and shows - should WANT dudes that are coming in to buy Queen and Roxy Music. Sure as hell beats trying to wring $6 out of that shit on ebay. Not to mention, as HCrink alluded to, these dudes are hip to more shit these days. Everyone knows who Can is. Everyone is up on the Pretty Things. They may not pony up $200-whatever for a UK "SF Sorrow" but they will buy the shit out of a $20 copy of Parachute. Average record buyer knows about Cymande and Fela. Not to mention dumb shit like mono Stones or whatever. Neil Young "On The Beach" for $30. Averageman is all over it.
I think that has a lot to do with how you curate it though.
I don't know how ARC works - is there dealer/early admission, and if so, is that when you open your table?
Obviously you have a core group of customers that come to your table.
But you also stock - by your own definition - obscure records and weird/private shit. Averageman is confused and turned off by that. But he will spend $100 at another table that has more easily-identifiable titles.
Same difference.
Meh. I disagree. There were plenty of tables bustling with activity after the dealers had literally left the building. Not everyone shows up to these joints with tables full of bad decisions. Some dudes know what they're doing and price effectively. Will some stuff move quickly? Of course, it always does. There are records that don't survive three hours in my shop. But I can tell you it's not because I underprice them.
I mean, I don't have to tell you of all people that the interests of bigshot record dealers are in no way the barometer of what is "good" or even "worth buying".
We could argue this all day but for every collector that would spend $30 on a Neil Young LP there are 20 that wouldn't spend more than a buck.
So if the "below average" collector is in the majority I think that makes your bar for "average" set pretty high.
We are jaded...we're at the top end of the "game"....looking down we see the $8.00 a pop guy....looking up from our knees in the $0.50 bin the view is different.....But I also saw a guy drop 2 grand on an LP @ ARC and was not shocked.
The average collector sees that as some two house payment insanity.
If your definition of the "average" collector is a guy that spends $50 - $100 at a Record Show then we agree on this entire topic 100%
Most of these dudes come in with a $100 budget. They just want 8-15 records for it.
That's not ridiculous. It's totally average.
Sell one $100 record that they paid $5.00 for making $95 profit
or
Selling 25 records that they paid $1.00 each for and selling them at $5.
Edit: I know it all depends on the records. But I just mean on a whole...
It's way easier to find 25 $5 records than 1 $100 record.
Dude.....I contend it's YOU that is disconnected.
You're describing a customer at FMU as "average" when in reality just the fact that they know of and attend a show like that makes him way above average.
What part of the MAJORITY of record buyers are dollar bin fiends are you not getting.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan how many non-dealer folks who do not attend WFMU would be there?
In a Boutique Record Shop 8 bucks may be average....at the Thrift Stores, HPB, etc. it is not.
I know for a fact that the main HPB here in D/FW sells 10x more $0.50 vinyl than they do all other prices combined.
Who are all those people buying that cheap stuff....they're "average" record collectors.
Without a doubt, this has A LOT to do with my location. The soul LPs and 45s I want are just not sitting around in people's collections/sell boxes up here.
They are both relatively easy if you know what you're doing.
Agreed.
But a HELL of a lot easier to sell one $100 record than 25 @ $5.00
I think if you came to WFMU you would be pleasantly surprised.
At peak hours during WFMU it is hard to walk around. $1 bin fiends to big time ballers, they're all there. WFMU advertises pretty heavily. Not sure what ARC does, but to everyone I know that attends both shows, there's no comparison. So yes, I contend that plenty of "average" record buyers go to WFMU.
I would actually contend that the crusties combing fleas and thrifts for $1 bin shit are not "average" at all. We don't have HPB... I can't speak to that. But in NYC I think an "average" record buyer wants to go into a shop and buy an average record for the same price a used CD or - at most - a new release might run them. Then they want to go about their lives. I think it's real easy to lose sight of that, as Astro said. David Bowie "Let's Dance" for $3. Fine. Forget the price for a minute. Focus on the behavior.
If there was a Dollar Blow-Out Sale in Manhattan, the *only* people that would show up would be dealers. Who do you think goes to estate sales, to (most) record shows, to shop close-outs? Average record buyers would be at dinner, sleeping in, having a drink, at work, etc. To most people it is not that serious. That's why Saturday is so much more active than Friday at WFMU. There are more "average record collectors" that can't be bothered to waste their Friday night on this shit.
Is it? I've had plenty of $100 records sit around because the *right* customer has to walk in. I guess I could put them on ebay, but I don't see that as making it any easier.
$5 records sell all day, to.... you guessed it, average record buyers.
There is no doubt that the record collector scene in NYC and L.A. is a lot different than the rest of the country.
Your comment about only dealers being at the Dollar Blow-Out says a lot....that would not be the case here. or in most cities I've been to.
That many dealers in one place could certainly turn a Dollar Bin staple into a common $8.00 record.
It is what it is.
I think something you might be missing in your example is how HPB sets up and markets itself. They specialize in cheap records, and if they have a 4/$1 sale, everyone that *already* shops there is gonna go.
Unless the dollar sale in NYC was put on by, say, Academy, the only people that would likely know about it would be dealers/collectors/grippers.
If there was a nameless dollar bin sale in the Bay Area, same result. But if Amoeba said it was clearing out a warehouse, everyone would be there.
Not so much about the sale, but about who's putting it on/promoting it.
And this has been one of the things brought up. Don't most people hate looking though dealers to see the same records over and over? Maybe it's just because you and I have a store selling mentality tho... Where having stock turn over in many cases, can be just as important as having high priced pieces. Over time, people will stop checking you out if you have the same shit every time they check you out.
Can we agree that the "average" record buyer in places like NYC and L.A./S.F. are nothing like the average record buyers in the great majority of the country>?