Does Slick Rick have citizenship yet? It's not about nationality, it is _sort of_ about race.
But if you are a white dude making rap in the 21st century, you are locating your art form in the same evolutionary branch as ICP. ICP is not just some quirk of probability that came into existence in a vacuum. It's also very minstrelsy. If you are serious about your art, that should inspire you to create something different.
Weird Al Yankovic has done more for Rap music than any 4 Elements whiteboy with a NatGeo-esque collection of WaxPo lined up underneath his Dre & Em posters ever will. Deal.
ha, I have one, it's VG- and side 2 is one longass break, but at least it's not a re-issue! I even did a bit of that cultural theory stuff so could paraphrase bits about hegemony and appropriation. But if you really get it, you shouldn't need to think about it, it should be instinctive that you can tell what is wack vs what is 'fresh', or even that old standby 'dope'.
Pimlicosquirrel gets it, it should not be that serious -- unless you are a white rapper I guess. Then you got to be emo as fuck.
Gotta love the 21st Century and how White folks from the US can tell Whitey from around the world that they aren't real Hip Hop!
This shit is starting to make me angry now.
I know there was one voice of reason from Oz so far, but the majority of the voices on here have revealed themselves to be the littlest of little dudes who really clearly do not understand the world they live in. Same is true of plenty of Americans, but really, you Oz dudes are playing yourselves so embarrassingly that is has to stop now. Maybe you simply don't get and never have got Hip Hop.
Yes, we understand what HIP HOP means to you. What it means to thousands if not millions of communities around the world. And I think it's great. Keep having your bboy battles, keep rocking doubles, keep painting murals, and every now and then one of you can take the mic and make sure that everyone else knows the words to Sugarhill Gang. It's cute. I have been a small part of small local communities of bboys and girls from all types of ethnic backgrounds here in Brooklyn. It is a truly international scene, involving black, latino, jewish, polish, brittish, all coming together to represent the best elements of what it is that makes shit so cool.
BUT, nobody is rapping apart from people who can fucking rap. Rap is different. Not only is it fundamentally a Black American thing, as stated, it is also more generally tied to the experience of the black diaspora. If you look at the countries whose rappers have been given a second look by the rest of the world, they are from countries who are also closely linked to black diaspora - Jamaica, UK, France, more recently Africa and Latin america. They have something to say that people might be interested in, so they get taken seriously.
You think that all rappers in the US get a pass by virtue of being American? So incredibly wrong. Eminem is not accepted as a legit rapper by a huge segment of the rap-listening population who happen to not be the current target demographic, but who have been listening since day one. At best he is seen as entertainment, and those people also know that he would still be flipping burgers or whatever if Dre had not bought up so much commercial time on MTV to promote his first LP.
But, Eminem's narrative has been sufficiently tied to the narrative of the black diaspora that it makes him believable to many as a legit rapper (living in Detroit accounts for most of that cred, seemed to almost work for Kid Rock as well. Asher Roth should have moved there too, plus Americans can get confused about race v. class) I actually think that the only time white people should rap is for pure entertainment. I will judge their style and flow, but I will not try to place it under the heading "Rap ain't dead" because that proves it really is.
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that the rest of the world does not care that Sydney has train yards that are a bit gritty and that your public transit system maybe smells like pee, and you are feeling alienated in this crazy modern world. NOBODY GIVE A FUCK, your "art" is just an exercise in narcissism. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can get to channeling your creativity towards something useful. Kinetic, the beat was cool, the rap ruined it. What's wrong with making beats and doing something over the top that is not rap hands rap?
Now if there were a group of historically downtrodden in your country who have been deprived of access to means of expression, and somehow managed to create a music form with minimal technology and investment, but that spoke to people about the realities of life, then we are all ears. Do you have any of those? Or are these soft-bodied stoner artistic white boys as deep as the story gets in your country? On that note, fall the fuck back when criticizing Big Bad America. The USA is too complex to write off singlehandedly, something I have learned from 22 years of living here. Your history has equally disturbing episodes that remain unaddressed. Are you rapping about that because I couldn't tell? I just saw non stop rap hands.
If you want my opinions on race, segregation, the t-shirts at my high school that read "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand".... now that is a whole nother topic. But until you remove yourselves from this bullshit equation, you will continue to come up with the wrong answers about rap and hip hop.
Ok man, in amongst the throw-away lines you make some good points in here. And as much as I don't really have that much invested in this argument, I do want to respond to some of this.
You make a lot of good points in this post, and in general, I'm on-board with you on a lot of this.
Yes, I understand how rap, to a higher degree than perhaps beat-making, B-boying or other "elements' of hip-hop may be more of a black thing. The problem for a lot of us in Australia with that though is that it's not often framed that way initially. Often, the first thing people talk about is our accent, and so in the Australian hip-hop community, a lot of our response to criticism has been about the accent - in term of both crticism against Austrlaian who don't use their own, and defence of the validity of the muisc made with it.
I dunno about your eminem argument though. He's had a lot of commercial success, but there are heaps of other rappers in the States that are white. Do I really need to list them? What it amounts to is that the issue is nationality as opposed to race. The other thing with race is that, I don't know if you realise this, but outside America, race is not viewed in quite the same way, and I really didn't understand this myself until I went to America. It may be a big deal whether or not someone is black or white for a whole lot of reasons in Amercia, but in a Country like Australia, and especially in Western Sydney where a LOT of Australian hip-hop artists come from, shit is really, really, REALLY diverse. The area that LokoOne is from, for example, has the highest settlement of non-english speaking people in the state, and something like half the population speak a language other than English in their homes. Also, the number of drug houses being discovered on a weekly basis in this area is scary! The point is, that this ain't a bunch of disaffected white kids buying SP1200s with their inheritance.
And the big bad America sytatement, in turn, doesn't wash away this simple fact: that in my years living in Australia, and going to America a few times, and meeting plenty of Americans, that you guys seem to be predisposed to thinking a) you're the centre of everything, and b) that nothing really happens outise your borders. Yes, America is complex, and I'm sure you can articulate that a lot better than I can being a part of that community, but that doesn't change the arrogance that sometimed emmenates. And there's been a bit of it in this thread.
The bottom line is that class, race, and nationality all play a part on rap - and perhaps the combination of these mean that you guys in the States don't like Australian hip-hop. I'm not personally a huge fan of the original peice of music that started this discussion, and I also don't think it was the best example to springboard this thread. But good music is being produced here in this country, and Sport... thanks for at least taking the time to check out the track I posted.
Gotta love the 21st Century and how White folks from the US can tell Whitey from around the world that they aren't real Hip Hop!
This shit is starting to make me angry now.
I know there was one voice of reason from Oz so far, but the majority of the voices on here have revealed themselves to be the littlest of little dudes who really clearly do not understand the world they live in. Same is true of plenty of Americans, but really, you Oz dudes are playing yourselves so embarrassingly that is has to stop now. Maybe you simply don't get and never have got Hip Hop.
Yes, we understand what HIP HOP means to you. What it means to thousands if not millions of communities around the world. And I think it's great. Keep having your bboy battles, keep rocking doubles, keep painting murals, and every now and then one of you can take the mic and make sure that everyone else knows the words to Sugarhill Gang. It's cute. I have been a small part of small local communities of bboys and girls from all types of ethnic backgrounds here in Brooklyn. It is a truly international scene, involving black, latino, jewish, polish, brittish, all coming together to represent the best elements of what it is that makes shit so cool.
BUT, nobody is rapping apart from people who can fucking rap. Rap is different. Not only is it fundamentally a Black American thing, as stated, it is also more generally tied to the experience of the black diaspora. If you look at the countries whose rappers have been given a second look by the rest of the world, they are from countries who are also closely linked to black diaspora - Jamaica, UK, France, more recently Africa and Latin america. They have something to say that people might be interested in, so they get taken seriously.
You think that all rappers in the US get a pass by virtue of being American? So incredibly wrong. Eminem is not accepted as a legit rapper by a huge segment of the rap-listening population who happen to not be the current target demographic, but who have been listening since day one. At best he is seen as entertainment, and those people also know that he would still be flipping burgers or whatever if Dre had not bought up so much commercial time on MTV to promote his first LP.
But, Eminem's narrative has been sufficiently tied to the narrative of the black diaspora that it makes him believable to many as a legit rapper (living in Detroit accounts for most of that cred, seemed to almost work for Kid Rock as well. Asher Roth should have moved there too, plus Americans can get confused about race v. class) I actually think that the only time white people should rap is for pure entertainment. I will judge their style and flow, but I will not try to place it under the heading "Rap ain't dead" because that proves it really is.
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that the rest of the world does not care that Sydney has train yards that are a bit gritty and that your public transit system maybe smells like pee, and you are feeling alienated in this crazy modern world. NOBODY GIVE A FUCK, your "art" is just an exercise in narcissism. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can get to channeling your creativity towards something useful. Kinetic, the beat was cool, the rap ruined it. What's wrong with making beats and doing something over the top that is not rap hands rap?
Now if there were a group of historically downtrodden in your country who have been deprived of access to means of expression, and somehow managed to create a music form with minimal technology and investment, but that spoke to people about the realities of life, then we are all ears. Do you have any of those? Or are these soft-bodied stoner artistic white boys as deep as the story gets in your country? On that note, fall the fuck back when criticizing Big Bad America. The USA is too complex to write off singlehandedly, something I have learned from 22 years of living here. Your history has equally disturbing episodes that remain unaddressed. Are you rapping about that because I couldn't tell? I just saw non stop rap hands.
If you want my opinions on race, segregation, the t-shirts at my high school that read "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand".... now that is a whole nother topic. But until you remove yourselves from this bullshit equation, you will continue to come up with the wrong answers about rap and hip hop.
Ok man, in amongst the throw-away lines you make some good points in here. And as much as I don't really have that much invested in this argument, I do want to respond to some of this.
You make a lot of good points in this post, and in general, I'm on-board with you on a lot of this.
Yes, I understand how rap, to a higher degree than perhaps beat-making, B-boying or other "elements' of hip-hop may be more of a black thing. The problem for a lot of us in Australia with that though is that it's not often framed that way initially. Often, the first thing people talk about is our accent, and so in the Australian hip-hop community, a lot of our response to criticism has been about the accent - in term of both crticism against Austrlaian who don't use their own, and defence of the validity of the muisc made with it.
I dunno about your eminem argument though. He's had a lot of commercial success, but there are heaps of other rappers in the States that are white. Do I really need to list them? What it amounts to is that the issue is nationality as opposed to race. The other thing with race is that, I don't know if you realise this, but outside America, race is not viewed in quite the same way, and I really didn't understand this myself until I went to America. It may be a big deal whether or not someone is black or white for a whole lot of reasons in Amercia, but in a Country like Australia, and especially in Western Sydney where a LOT of Australian hip-hop artists come from, shit is really, really, REALLY diverse. The area that LokoOne is from, for example, has the highest settlement of non-english speaking people in the state, and something like half the population speak a language other than English in their homes. Also, the number of drug houses being discovered on a weekly basis in this area is scary! The point is, that this ain't a bunch of disaffected white kids buying SP1200s with their inheritance.
None of that is really relevant.
"Fundamentally Black American" does not = non-English speaking. Or drug-related.
It may be hard to hear this, but America actually is the center of the rap universe. And pretty much the extent of any aspect of it that matters. That's not American arrogance. That's just fact.
Other distinctly American music genres like Blues and Rockabilly were embraced by people around the world and the result of their musical output within those genres ranged from below average to cartoonishly bad.
In my limited experience, Rap seems to fit that bill as well.
It may be hard to hear this, but America actually is the center of the rap universe.
I don't think anyone disputes that fact?
faux_rillz said:
And pretty much the extent of any aspect of it that matters. That's not American arrogance.
No that's not American arrogance, it's personal arrogance.
no. in respect to the entire "rap universe", america really is the only aspect that matters. all eyes and ears are always on american rap. that's where alot of you other countries get your styles, sounds, slang, "swag", etc from. deal.
no rapper from sudan, japan, canada, or italy is bitting on australian shit. i doubt they will do any homage tracks to uk rap in the future either.
Comments
/Discourse.
^ Desperately wants to be part of the equation.
Fixed
I don't understand why this has turned into a race thing, when it's more of a nationality issue
But if you are a white dude making rap in the 21st century, you are locating your art form in the same evolutionary branch as ICP. ICP is not just some quirk of probability that came into existence in a vacuum. It's also very minstrelsy. If you are serious about your art, that should inspire you to create something different.
Weird Al Yankovic has done more for Rap music than any 4 Elements whiteboy with a NatGeo-esque collection of WaxPo lined up underneath his Dre & Em posters ever will. Deal.
:exclaim:
I notice people with opinions we may respect are staying the fuck away from this thread.
It's not coz they agree with you kids, it's because they have some DVDs to move!
"Im neither aware or very impressed with what comes out of Australia"
ha, I have one, it's VG- and side 2 is one longass break, but at least it's not a re-issue! I even did a bit of that cultural theory stuff so could paraphrase bits about hegemony and appropriation. But if you really get it, you shouldn't need to think about it, it should be instinctive that you can tell what is wack vs what is 'fresh', or even that old standby 'dope'.
Pimlicosquirrel gets it, it should not be that serious -- unless you are a white rapper I guess. Then you got to be emo as fuck.
b/w
:hi:
coopers rules
Yeah - and i recall a "Disco Rap" yall did recently that i liked but there was some tongue in cheekness to it right?
Carry on.
Half Hawaiian with a slight touch of Chinese.
b/w
Mixed Spanish and Latin
Ok man, in amongst the throw-away lines you make some good points in here. And as much as I don't really have that much invested in this argument, I do want to respond to some of this.
You make a lot of good points in this post, and in general, I'm on-board with you on a lot of this.
Yes, I understand how rap, to a higher degree than perhaps beat-making, B-boying or other "elements' of hip-hop may be more of a black thing. The problem for a lot of us in Australia with that though is that it's not often framed that way initially. Often, the first thing people talk about is our accent, and so in the Australian hip-hop community, a lot of our response to criticism has been about the accent - in term of both crticism against Austrlaian who don't use their own, and defence of the validity of the muisc made with it.
I dunno about your eminem argument though. He's had a lot of commercial success, but there are heaps of other rappers in the States that are white. Do I really need to list them? What it amounts to is that the issue is nationality as opposed to race. The other thing with race is that, I don't know if you realise this, but outside America, race is not viewed in quite the same way, and I really didn't understand this myself until I went to America. It may be a big deal whether or not someone is black or white for a whole lot of reasons in Amercia, but in a Country like Australia, and especially in Western Sydney where a LOT of Australian hip-hop artists come from, shit is really, really, REALLY diverse. The area that LokoOne is from, for example, has the highest settlement of non-english speaking people in the state, and something like half the population speak a language other than English in their homes. Also, the number of drug houses being discovered on a weekly basis in this area is scary! The point is, that this ain't a bunch of disaffected white kids buying SP1200s with their inheritance.
And the big bad America sytatement, in turn, doesn't wash away this simple fact: that in my years living in Australia, and going to America a few times, and meeting plenty of Americans, that you guys seem to be predisposed to thinking a) you're the centre of everything, and b) that nothing really happens outise your borders. Yes, America is complex, and I'm sure you can articulate that a lot better than I can being a part of that community, but that doesn't change the arrogance that sometimed emmenates. And there's been a bit of it in this thread.
The bottom line is that class, race, and nationality all play a part on rap - and perhaps the combination of these mean that you guys in the States don't like Australian hip-hop. I'm not personally a huge fan of the original peice of music that started this discussion, and I also don't think it was the best example to springboard this thread. But good music is being produced here in this country, and Sport... thanks for at least taking the time to check out the track I posted.
Peace
K.
None of that is really relevant.
"Fundamentally Black American" does not = non-English speaking. Or drug-related.
It may be hard to hear this, but America actually is the center of the rap universe. And pretty much the extent of any aspect of it that matters. That's not American arrogance. That's just fact.
I don't think anyone disputes that fact?
No that's not American arrogance, it's personal arrogance.
That's like totally deep man.
In my limited experience, Rap seems to fit that bill as well.
no. in respect to the entire "rap universe", america really is the only aspect that matters. all eyes and ears are always on american rap. that's where alot of you other countries get your styles, sounds, slang, "swag", etc from. deal.
no rapper from sudan, japan, canada, or italy is bitting on australian shit. i doubt they will do any homage tracks to uk rap in the future either.