HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Some Haitians suppported Aristide, some Haitians didn't support Aristide...and each had their reasons.
I don't know why you are so hell bent on convincing me that Wyclef needs to be categorically dismissed as a presidential candidate.
I doubt Wyclef actually does his own or Yele's books. And the liens he incurred in the past have been paid in full. If the current liens are legit, I would imagine they will be paid as well. This sort of thing is far from uncommon.
I don't much care what Sean Penn thinks. Yele has done some great work in some very remote locations, independent of all the UN trickery (Monsanto seeds, tainted immunizations, etc.) that gets pushed by US media as the only solution type half-helpful/half-bullshit.
I know, like the youth of Haiti know, the power that could be amassed by way of a Wyclef candidacy/presidency.
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
The movement Wyclef, and only Wyclef, could front is so much bigger than just Wyclef himself...
On Thursday, Jean took the stage at his rally as supporters sang a traditional pro-Aristide song, replacing the exiled leader's name with Jean's. Asked what prompted that particular tune, Jean replied he hadn't picked it.
The most problematic part of the article is where Wyclef says he agrees with the US and UN plan for rebuilding. But once he grounds himself with more locals on his team, I expect that stance to be dropped to an ample extent. The idea is to play hardball with the US where Haiti indeed entices the investment (time to stop calling it relief) but makes it work more for the local economy than for overseas bankers sporting ridiculous loan terms and a knack for pumping poison onto the indiginous population.
It would be a tricky thing to pull off...as typically when the corporates invest in 3rd world projects, they rape and pillage for their own gain, leaving mere scraps for the locals. Wyclef is in a position, not just for Haiti, but for similar nations worldwide to expose the practices forced upon them by the global elite. I don't know for certain that that's completely what Wyclef has up his sleeve with this presidential run. But I know that's the primary agenda of Haiti, to free itself from the shackles of imperialist pirates...and fully recognize that through Wyclef much good work could be done in that direction.
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
Such as houses, hospitals, medicine, care for earthquake orphans, electrical infrastructure, roads, food, clothing, jobs, less crime and violence, stable government, stable relations with the outside world, stable relations with the Dominican Republic, better farming techniques, better safeguards against incoming hurricanes and earthquakes and the damages they inflict, a competent leader, a leader with any leadership experience of any kind, a leader whose organization wasn't/isn't mired in mismanagement, a leader that won't or can't be corrupted, a leader that understands Haitian history and its ramifications for the country, and on and on and on.
Clef will get elected, talk pretty, and nothing will get done. I would love for it to be different, but it won't be.
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
Such as houses, hospitals, medicine, care for earthquake orphans, electrical infrastructure, roads, food, clothing, jobs, less crime and violence, stable government, stable relations with the outside world, stable relations with the Dominican Republic, better farming techniques, better safeguards against incoming hurricanes and earthquakes and the damages they inflict, a competent leader, a leader with any leadership experience of any kind, a leader whose organization wasn't/isn't mired in mismanagement, a leader that won't or can't be corrupted, a leader that understands Haitian history and its ramifications for the country, and on and on and on.
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
Such as houses, hospitals, medicine, care for earthquake orphans, electrical infrastructure, roads, food, clothing, jobs, less crime and violence, stable government, stable relations with the outside world, stable relations with the Dominican Republic, better farming techniques, better safeguards against incoming hurricanes and earthquakes and the damages they inflict, a competent leader, a leader with any leadership experience of any kind, a leader whose organization wasn't/isn't mired in mismanagement, a leader that won't or can't be corrupted, a leader that understands Haitian history and its ramifications for the country, and on and on and on.
Clef will get elected, talk pretty, and nothing will get done. I would love for it to be different, but it won't be.
Seriously. And while i don't want to pile on Wyclef without taking his candidacy seriously (since it looks like he's got a real shot here), I don't know how charismatic leadership is supposed to translate into responsible - and ethical - governance absent any other experience in trying to run something as complicated as a failed nation-state trying to recover from a devastating natural disaster.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The_Non said:
HarveyCanal said:
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
Such as houses, hospitals, medicine, care for earthquake orphans, electrical infrastructure, roads, food, clothing, jobs, less crime and violence, stable government, stable relations with the outside world, stable relations with the Dominican Republic, better farming techniques, better safeguards against incoming hurricanes and earthquakes and the damages they inflict, a competent leader, a leader with any leadership experience of any kind, a leader whose organization wasn't/isn't mired in mismanagement, a leader that won't or can't be corrupted, a leader that understands Haitian history and its ramifications for the country, and on and on and on.
Clef will get elected, talk pretty, and nothing will get done. I would love for it to be different, but it won't be.
In other words, y'all are for another US puppet like Preval, same shit...nothing improves, but you...and mind you, not Haitians...get to check all those items off of your checklist in the sky.
This isn't Indiana we're talking about...it's not the same set of circumstances where it's merely put your head to the grindstone and get it done. That's actually what Haitians want it to be, but on their own terms....without damaging US intervention crippling them from making any progress.
Wyclef represents something y'all apparently can't understand within the context of Haiti. Again, I'm not sure he can do much all on his own...but his movement certainly can.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
He's a shoe-in. Spoke with some Haitians yesterday about Wyclef running and they are all for it. First reason cited...he will unite the youth. Second reason cited...Wyclef enters the arena with a clean slate. In other words, he nor his party nor their henchman have decapittated anybody's cousin's uncle yet. Wyclef is in a position to rise above all of the infighting that has plagued even the best of intentions in Haiti with violence against fellow Haitians. History in the making...
So as the "youth" get the presidency, the "infighters" will take a bow and say "c'est bonne" to Wyclef taking office?
Look, I want him to succeed IF he gets elected, I really do. I don't wanna be right. But an outsider American-ish taking over in Haiti will not sit well with some, particularly those who have money in Haiti at this point. I want him to give Haiti some W's in the win column, I really do, but I'm incredibly skeptical of his abilities to lead and succeed.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The_Non said:
So as the "youth" get the presidency, the "infighters" will take a bow and say "bonne" to Wyclef taking office?
Look, I want him to succeed IF he gets elected, I really do. I don't wanna be right. But an outsider American-ish taking over in Haiti will not sit well with some, particularly those who have money in Haiti at this point. I want him to give Haiti some W's in the win column, I really do, but I'm incredibly skeptical of his abilities to lead and succeed.
Only way for Haiti to make progress is 1. to change the game from endless violent quagmire down there and 2. to piss off people in Haiti who have money. So, even according to your own prognosis, Wyclef is already on the right track.
When I brought up Wyclef clinging too much on US and UN plans for rebuilding, my Haitian family said the same thing I posted here the other day....that once Wyclef's campaign gets more grounded with more actual Haitians on his team, he will naturally back off on that bs. That's yet to be seen really, but that's the common expectation going into this.
And again, Aristide was an amazing leader...and look where it got him.
In interviews, he stressed Haitians learning and speaking English as a key to Haitian success. Thoughts Harv et al?
Great idea, as hardly anyone else speaking Creole in these parts kinda keeps Haitians unnecessarily isolated.
There is a worthy discussion to be had on maintaining cultural diversity as any country develops. And granted, when that country is economically poor and has been traditionally "oppressed", it's smart to be weary of cultural imperialism through development (see: WTO/IMF/World Bank). But to the extent that globalization is inevitable, this seems like a good strategy to me.
Aristide was an amazing leader...and look where it got him.
Then surely 'Clef's got this...
I know you think his good intentions will equate to being a good leader, but this is a country not a concert.
The people want change and he gives them something to hope for, but is he qualified (at all) to be president of a country? Especially one in the shape that Haiti is in? Serious question.
i dont know much about the situation....and i got immediate concerns with any celebrity expat entertainer riding into town as a savior. but keep in mind, no one leads by themselves...if elected, he's going to have to appoint a lot of people to make things work. hopefully his lack of experience wont bungle those crucial decisions and he'll get good capable people around him. in many ways, the president can be little more than a charismatic figurehead and still have an effective administration
In interviews, he stressed Haitians learning and speaking English as a key to Haitian success. Thoughts Harv et al?
Great idea, as hardly anyone else speaking Creole in these parts kinda keeps Haitians unnecessarily isolated.
There is a worthy discussion to be had on maintaining cultural diversity as any country develops. And granted, when that country is economically poor and has been traditionally "oppressed", it's smart to be weary of cultural imperialism through development (see: WTO/IMF/World Bank). But to the extent that globalization is inevitable, this seems like a good strategy to me.
What were your thoughts on that idea, The_Non?
I'm half optimist and half suspicious. Out of ALL the things he could stress to improve first in Haiti, he mentions one that would "mainstream" relations between the US and Haiti instead of something that could improve Haiti internally. Preval had improved Haiti internally, but a lot of those improvements were damaged by the earthquake and served primarily those who had money on the island. More English speakers would improve relations and business between the US and Haiti, but at the same time, might exponentially increase dependency on the US and the Americanization of the island, which some might consider undesirable. Haitian Creole is a language only they speak, and offers little but retention of cultural identity as different in the Caribbean, as a former French colony, and a nation of former slaves that shook the chains of bondage themselves to gain their freedom, speaking a language heavily influenced by African languages. Does a country retain that identity in the face of modernization and modernize "their" way, or do they adapt to the world around them? Bolivia, a country I study for my own research has chosen to modernize their way, and it creates an interesting and bumpy road. Haiti could be the call center for America for all we knew, if they could speak fluent English. Indians want more money for call center work, and companies that operate over there are starting to increasingly pull out, as well as Chuck Schumer has introduced a bill that punishes companies that operate call centers abroad. The world is wide open, and Haiti has nowhere to go but up. You can modernize and conform, or you can modernize and write the playbook yourself. I just worry that Wyclef being elected might lead to violence or civil war again in Haiti.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
day said:
HarveyCanal said:
Aristide was an amazing leader...and look where it got him.
Then surely 'Clef's got this...
I know you think his good intentions will equate to being a good leader, but this is a country not a concert.
The people want change and he gives them something to hope for, but is he qualified (at all) to be president of a country? Especially one in the shape that Haiti is in? Serious question.
Aristide was a Cathiloc priest before running for president. He became adept at organizing people and goodwill activities for the poor in Haiti. And moreso than any tangible skill he possessed, it was his charisma that did the trick.
Wyclef is a musician, yes. But he has spent the past 10 years doing a great job organizing people and goodwill activities for the poor in Haiti. And again, it' his charisma that has done the trick in that regard.
Charisma is a powerful thing, just ask that Obama dude.
obama has a lot more going for him than just charisma. he does have a law degree and was a senator. as far as i know, he has never been accused of diverting money from his vanity charity towards himself and his cronies (which is yet to be explained months later). also, obama doesn;t have mulit-million dollar tax liens against him.
charisma is great and all, but its just no substitute for actual substance, ability and character.
i can;t tell you how many people i meet who think they can cruise through life on their charisma and ability to bullshit the scenario....
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
If Jean can pull it off, more power (but not too much) to him.
What did Schwarzenegger or Regan have going for them before they became Gov of CA that Jean does not have?
I am still not convinced that Jean is that popular in Haiti, either as a rapper or a politician.
Nor am I convinced that he will attract the goodwill, protection or anticorporateamericanizm that HC sees.
But I admit, HC's ear is a lot closer to the ground than mine.
so many horrible looks from wyclef in this interview he gave to npr. i'm starting to think harvey canal would have a better shot of running that country than wyclef.
Wyclef Jean, the U.S.-based musician turned Haitian presidential candidate, vowed Monday to clean up corruption in his homeland and vigorously defended himself against claims he siphoned off money destined for earthquake victims.
In interviews with NPR, he also responded to critics of his bid for office ??? including actor and activist Sean Penn ??? who say Jean is out of touch with the Caribbean island nation.
Speaking to NPR's All Things Considered, the three-time Grammy-winning hip-hop artist said the problem in Haiti is one of "bad management."
"The idea in moving Haiti forward would require putting everyone in a post where you feel there's absolutely no corruption," he said, acknowledging that while he isn't a political expert, he would surround himself "with the right people to make sure the ideas I have are implemented."
He said his candidacy particularly appeals to Haiti's youth.
Younger Haitians "have no faith in any form of old-structure politics," he said. "The tone on the ground is that if Wyclef Jean is not running, we're not voting."
Speaking earlier to NPR's Tell Me More, Jean, who is an ambassador at large for Haiti, fired back at Penn, who was quoted recently as saying that he was "suspicious" of the musician's motives. Penn acknowledged that "I don't know the man" but said about Jean that "I haven't seen or heard anything of him in these last six months that I've been in Haiti."
Jean told NPR that he had been in Haiti for 31 days since the quake. "My idea is ... to go to the areas that are rough, because if these areas get hot, then it's going to have a domino effect on the areas that Sean Penn is in. I fully want him to understand that," he said.
The Haitian-born artist moved to the U.S. when he was 9 and currently lives in New Jersey, but he has maintained his Haitian citizenship and travels there regularly. Jean filed last week for the Nov. 28 Haitian election.
Jean, a candidate for the Viv Ansanm party, is considered a front-runner in a crowded field of competitors vying to replace current President Rene Preval. "I never felt like the government of Haiti necessarily stood for the benefit of the mass population," he said.
Jean said in such an impoverished country, it was important to provide free schooling and that good government "understands that quality of education requires building real schools and it requires caring for people."
A childhood friend and a fellow member of Jean's band The Fugees, Pras, also threw his support behind a rival candidate, saying that while he loves his former band mate "dearly," he doesn't support his policies.
Jean told NPR that Pras' remark was understandable. "If I look back at 10 years or maybe 12, I haven't had a conversation with Pras for more than 30 seconds," Jean said.
In recent days, criticism has focused on whether Jean meets the country's five-year residency requirement to run for president.
"I have more than five years' residency in Haiti," Jean offered. "I don't know anyone in the Haiti Parliament that basically stays in Haiti for five years. As a roving ambassador, you cannot sit in one place; you've got to be constantly moving around the world," he said.
Jean has come under scrutiny recently for $2.1 million in back taxes owed to the United States and for his aid foundation, Yele Haiti, which allegedly misused post-quake charity funds.
"The tax situation was taken care of by me," he told Tell Me More host Michel Martin.
He emphatically denied the charges related to his charity.
"The idea of Wyclef taking money to put in his pocket, that is a no. The idea of taking personal money to give to my family, that is a no. The idea of Wyclef being corrupted is a no," he told All Things Considered.
Jean also promised to go after the billions of dollars in unpaid pledges that were made in the wake of the disastrous quake, but never collected. "If you have $5.2 billion that is sitting, which has been promised by donors, someone has to go get that money," he said.
Implying that his travel around the world makes him uniquely qualified to retrieve the funds, Jean said Haiti doesn't need a "local president."
"You need a global president, someone who is going to be moving through the globe," he said.
Jean said as president, he hoped to concentrate on education, job creation, agriculture, security and health care, but he offered little in the way of specifics. Instead, he emphasized his "No. 1" qualification as not being a Haitian politician.
"Take Wyclef Jean out of the equation [and] show me someone who is prepared to move Haiti forward in the next five years that's going to take it from where it's at right now, from education to agriculture to policy to implement and law. I don't see that," he said.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
faux_rillz said:
Soulhawk said:
in all the interviews on this subject I've heard, Wyclef always refers to himself in the third person
I was just noting that to my wife--invariably a clear indicator of dictatorial tendencies
faux_rillz does not support wyclef
Thankfully, faux_rillz doesn't count in this equation. You won't ever even have a conversation with an actual Haitian in order to have your opinion even register as a blip on the radar. But yeah, way to take a firm stance.
Soulhawk is wondering why Harvey Canal is giving Wyclef a pass on some serious issues, if anyone else had suggested that Haitians learn English Harvey would have started frothing at the mouth( even more so than usual)
Comments
I don't know why you are so hell bent on convincing me that Wyclef needs to be categorically dismissed as a presidential candidate.
I doubt Wyclef actually does his own or Yele's books. And the liens he incurred in the past have been paid in full. If the current liens are legit, I would imagine they will be paid as well. This sort of thing is far from uncommon.
I don't much care what Sean Penn thinks. Yele has done some great work in some very remote locations, independent of all the UN trickery (Monsanto seeds, tainted immunizations, etc.) that gets pushed by US media as the only solution type half-helpful/half-bullshit.
I know, like the youth of Haiti know, the power that could be amassed by way of a Wyclef candidacy/presidency.
It would put Haiti in a spotlight it has never been able to navigate to date...and again, that spotlight is so much more important than any of the lesser things y'all are stressing.
The movement Wyclef, and only Wyclef, could front is so much bigger than just Wyclef himself...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/06/wyclef-jean-interview-rec_n_673002.html
The most problematic part of the article is where Wyclef says he agrees with the US and UN plan for rebuilding. But once he grounds himself with more locals on his team, I expect that stance to be dropped to an ample extent. The idea is to play hardball with the US where Haiti indeed entices the investment (time to stop calling it relief) but makes it work more for the local economy than for overseas bankers sporting ridiculous loan terms and a knack for pumping poison onto the indiginous population.
It would be a tricky thing to pull off...as typically when the corporates invest in 3rd world projects, they rape and pillage for their own gain, leaving mere scraps for the locals. Wyclef is in a position, not just for Haiti, but for similar nations worldwide to expose the practices forced upon them by the global elite. I don't know for certain that that's completely what Wyclef has up his sleeve with this presidential run. But I know that's the primary agenda of Haiti, to free itself from the shackles of imperialist pirates...and fully recognize that through Wyclef much good work could be done in that direction.
Clef will get elected, talk pretty, and nothing will get done. I would love for it to be different, but it won't be.
HAITI NEEDS PROPS YO!
Seriously. And while i don't want to pile on Wyclef without taking his candidacy seriously (since it looks like he's got a real shot here), I don't know how charismatic leadership is supposed to translate into responsible - and ethical - governance absent any other experience in trying to run something as complicated as a failed nation-state trying to recover from a devastating natural disaster.
In other words, y'all are for another US puppet like Preval, same shit...nothing improves, but you...and mind you, not Haitians...get to check all those items off of your checklist in the sky.
This isn't Indiana we're talking about...it's not the same set of circumstances where it's merely put your head to the grindstone and get it done. That's actually what Haitians want it to be, but on their own terms....without damaging US intervention crippling them from making any progress.
Wyclef represents something y'all apparently can't understand within the context of Haiti. Again, I'm not sure he can do much all on his own...but his movement certainly can.
And now, you will get to watch it happen.
I think he needs to get elected first, no?
Look, I want him to succeed IF he gets elected, I really do. I don't wanna be right. But an outsider American-ish taking over in Haiti will not sit well with some, particularly those who have money in Haiti at this point. I want him to give Haiti some W's in the win column, I really do, but I'm incredibly skeptical of his abilities to lead and succeed.
Only way for Haiti to make progress is 1. to change the game from endless violent quagmire down there and 2. to piss off people in Haiti who have money. So, even according to your own prognosis, Wyclef is already on the right track.
When I brought up Wyclef clinging too much on US and UN plans for rebuilding, my Haitian family said the same thing I posted here the other day....that once Wyclef's campaign gets more grounded with more actual Haitians on his team, he will naturally back off on that bs. That's yet to be seen really, but that's the common expectation going into this.
And again, Aristide was an amazing leader...and look where it got him.
Great idea, as hardly anyone else speaking Creole in these parts kinda keeps Haitians unnecessarily isolated.
There is a worthy discussion to be had on maintaining cultural diversity as any country develops. And granted, when that country is economically poor and has been traditionally "oppressed", it's smart to be weary of cultural imperialism through development (see: WTO/IMF/World Bank). But to the extent that globalization is inevitable, this seems like a good strategy to me.
What were your thoughts on that idea, The_Non?
Then surely 'Clef's got this...
I know you think his good intentions will equate to being a good leader, but this is a country not a concert.
The people want change and he gives them something to hope for, but is he qualified (at all) to be president of a country? Especially one in the shape that Haiti is in? Serious question.
I'm half optimist and half suspicious. Out of ALL the things he could stress to improve first in Haiti, he mentions one that would "mainstream" relations between the US and Haiti instead of something that could improve Haiti internally. Preval had improved Haiti internally, but a lot of those improvements were damaged by the earthquake and served primarily those who had money on the island. More English speakers would improve relations and business between the US and Haiti, but at the same time, might exponentially increase dependency on the US and the Americanization of the island, which some might consider undesirable. Haitian Creole is a language only they speak, and offers little but retention of cultural identity as different in the Caribbean, as a former French colony, and a nation of former slaves that shook the chains of bondage themselves to gain their freedom, speaking a language heavily influenced by African languages. Does a country retain that identity in the face of modernization and modernize "their" way, or do they adapt to the world around them? Bolivia, a country I study for my own research has chosen to modernize their way, and it creates an interesting and bumpy road. Haiti could be the call center for America for all we knew, if they could speak fluent English. Indians want more money for call center work, and companies that operate over there are starting to increasingly pull out, as well as Chuck Schumer has introduced a bill that punishes companies that operate call centers abroad. The world is wide open, and Haiti has nowhere to go but up. You can modernize and conform, or you can modernize and write the playbook yourself. I just worry that Wyclef being elected might lead to violence or civil war again in Haiti.
Aristide was a Cathiloc priest before running for president. He became adept at organizing people and goodwill activities for the poor in Haiti. And moreso than any tangible skill he possessed, it was his charisma that did the trick.
Wyclef is a musician, yes. But he has spent the past 10 years doing a great job organizing people and goodwill activities for the poor in Haiti. And again, it' his charisma that has done the trick in that regard.
Charisma is a powerful thing, just ask that Obama dude.
charisma is great and all, but its just no substitute for actual substance, ability and character.
i can;t tell you how many people i meet who think they can cruise through life on their charisma and ability to bullshit the scenario....
What did Schwarzenegger or Regan have going for them before they became Gov of CA that Jean does not have?
I am still not convinced that Jean is that popular in Haiti, either as a rapper or a politician.
Nor am I convinced that he will attract the goodwill, protection or anticorporateamericanizm that HC sees.
But I admit, HC's ear is a lot closer to the ground than mine.
Those guys both worked out great
Serious question - what happens to all of clef's existing outright corporate sponsorships? Is Haiti going to be a pepsi only country now?
What's clef's educational background look like here?
And if him winning means I never have to hear him rap again, please direct me to his campaign donation website
Arnold has proven himself to be no worse, and perhaps better, as an administrator, policy maker and negotiator than most other recent CA Govs.
I think Reagan was terrible, but that's just my opinion.
"the accusations against Wyclef were never proven, Wyclef Jean is a movement..."
fuck that shit, dude is an egomaniac with some sort of Marley / messiah complex
I was just noting that to my wife--invariably a clear indicator of dictatorial tendencies
faux_rillz does not support wyclef
I noticed it as well. Non-stop.
oh, that's weird.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129087447
Thankfully, faux_rillz doesn't count in this equation. You won't ever even have a conversation with an actual Haitian in order to have your opinion even register as a blip on the radar. But yeah, way to take a firm stance.