Ex-Girlfriend you keep saying no one has read the bill.
I understand what you mean; there's a mistaken belief that the police can pull you over for being brown. That's not (verbatim) in the bill. What is in the bill is that, if you are engaged in some "suspicious" or illegal or otherwise lightweight criminal behavior (e.g. speeding, having a busted headlight, jaywalking, open container) that if you are stopped by a police for said behavior, the burden is then on YOU to prove citizenship and without such proof you can be detained.
In 1976 I was crossing the street from Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. and was pulled over by two CHIP motorcycle officers for Jay Walking. (If I remember correctly we were crossing to go to a place called Licorice Pizza Records). Being from NY I had no idea what jay walking was. I had no legal ID.....and was subsequently taken into custody for insufficient ID, Vagrancy, Loitering(I had less than a dollar in my pocket), across the state lines as a minor and suspiscion of being a runaway. They contacted my parents, found out I was not a runaway, and dropped all charges except the Jay Walking which was a ticket.
So I have always assumed that there have been laws in place(at least in Cali) that require you to prove who you are through legal ID. Either that or those Cops were not upholding the law as it is written. As far as I know most forms of "Legal ID" would indeed show whether or not you are a citizen.
I am guessing this bill is going to drive the crime-rate up in AZ...think about it, Police officers have spent years and years in certain high crime communities building trust with the residents...when the residents of a certain neighborhood trust the police, they talk to the police and give info, that means bad guys are caught more easily...this bill totally killed that hard work building trust overnight. Now no one is going to want to talk to the police, because the police now are just people who will hassle/deport/throw you in jail for being Mexican. Tight-lipped residents=bad people can do their bad things more easily now that the witnesses wont talk.
I am guessing this bill is going to drive the crime-rate up in AZ...think about it, Police officers have spent years and years in certain high crime communities building trust with the residents...when the residents of a certain neighborhood trust the police, they talk to the police and give info, that means bad guys are caught more easily...this bill totally killed that hard work building trust overnight. Now no one is going to want to talk to the police, because the police now are just people who will hassle/deport/throw you in jail for being Mexican. Tight-lipped residents=bad people can do their bad things more easily now that the witnesses wont talk.
It's under this set of beliefs that LAPD specifically instructs its officers NOT to inquire about citizenship status. The new chief (and the last one) were very vocal in opposing the kind of law enforcement burden that 1070 places on the police.
Did you hear that story about Thailand sending whitening cream to Haiti as part of the releif effort? They just felt like life would be easier for them if they had lighter skin.
Not true. The most common form of legal ID = a drivers license. Most acceptable forms of ID do not show citizenship.
I was under the impression that you had to be a citizen to get a driver's license?
I know it's true in California, Texas and Arizona.
Not a citizen but you're supposed to provide some kind of documentation that you have legal status to be in the U.S.
That's according to CA law and I assume it's the same elsewhere. No state would deny a driver's license to a legal alien.
Right.
And at the end of the day, what we're worried about here is not how many illegal immigrants get stopped and can't provide papers; we're concerned with how many LEGALS get stopped, detained, arrested.
Dudes are really missing the forest for some shrubbery.
Not true. The most common form of legal ID = a drivers license. Most acceptable forms of ID do not show citizenship.
I was under the impression that you had to be a citizen to get a driver's license?
I know it's true in California, Texas and Arizona.
Not a citizen but you're supposed to provide some kind of documentation that you have legal status to be in the U.S.
That's according to CA law and I assume it's the same elsewhere. No state would deny a driver's license to a legal alien.
Right.
And at the end of the day, what we're worried about here is not how many illegal immigrants get stopped and can't provide papers; we're concerned with how many LEGALS get stopped, detained, arrested.
Dudes are really missing the forest for some shrubbery.
Perhaps they need better landscapers
Since it happened to me....I'm concerned about it too.
If this is true than a DL is proof of citizenship......Yes?
Not to split hairs but a legal resident is not a citizen but you can still get a DL as a legal resident alien.
I don't think a DL would suffice as proof or non-proof of legal status, regardless. It's an ID check but not a citizenship/legal resident ID.
Random note: this may have changed but as recently as a few years ago, you could board a plane without showing a picture ID. It's a hassle but they're not supposed to prevent you from flying w/o one.
If this is true than a DL is proof of citizenship......Yes?
Not to split hairs but a legal resident is not a citizen but you can still get a DL as a legal resident alien.
I don't think a DL would suffice as proof or non-proof of legal status, regardless. It's an ID check but not a citizenship/legal resident ID.
Random note: this may have changed but as recently as a few years ago, you could board a plane without showing a picture ID. It's a hassle but they're not supposed to prevent you from flying w/o one.
OK...a "legal resident" would not have anything to worry about within this law.
Rich - you claim to be a smart guy, and I believe you.
So let me be as clear as I can:
Illegal Immigrants have something to fear within this bill: being deported. Them's the breaks.
Citizens and Legal Residents, however, absolutely DO have something to fear as well: being arrested!
That you can't grasp this says a lot about you.
The issue is not ILLEGAL residents being caught by the police, it's the potential for completely LEGAL residents and citizens to be detained and arrested because they have not provided the proper proof of said legal status.
This is for Dolo because I'm tired of the "you didn't read the bill" argument.
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN [/b]WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
*snip*
E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.
At face value this seems harmless enough. Until we get to this part:
IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE.
These 2 parts together mean that an officer can arrest you if he sees you walking down the street. Many people argue that the ID checks are only while regular traffic stops are being conducted, but the bill plainly says that the officer has the right to stop you if he thinks that you are illegally trespassing in the state. I.E., if you are walking down the street and the officer has reason to beleive you are illegal, he can stop you.
A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
1. A valid Arizona driver license. 2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license. 3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification. 4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
We are in the middle of a census....we try to keep track of ALL of our citizens.
Would you be against the government providing all people who filled out the census with an ID card that they could carry with them at all times to show they are a citizen??
Is it the simple act of showing legal ID you are against or the form in which that ID is currently in??
Up until only like two years ago you didn't need any proof of anything get a liscene here. I know, I have mad family from Peru who got driers liacences here while they were visiting on tourist visa, precisely because it semi-authenticated you. Sheeeet, you think Latinos like hanging out at the DMV?
Alot of people at speaking on this on the right don't know what the hell they are talking about because they have never actallu had to deal with immigration issues - which, in my experience, seldom go by the book. Getting naturalized shouldn't take decades, and now decades cowering from a local cop? Gtfoohwtb! I don't need any more baby boomer 'merican tellin me shit about how immigration works on tv.
Roc, I'm sorry you got profiled but we aren't talking about the shit your talking about and I'm not going to start a pissing contest of brutality stories, but let's just say - walk away son. Shit is deep for minorities.
Ex boyfrnd, you think I did a bunch of constitutional research with reading the actual bill? Come on son. I'll do you one better, why don't you all research who actually owned the bill and holler back. Thanks alot former bush admin employees, your th gift that keeps on giving.
We are in the middle of a census....we try to keep track of ALL of our citizens.
Would you be against the government providing all people who filled out the census with an ID card that they could carry with them at all times to show they are a citizen??
Is it the simple act of showing legal ID you are against or the form in which that ID is currently in??
Are YOU in favor of a national ID card?
Why don't you look up the percentages that filled out their census forms and tell me if you're confident that does the whole job.
my question: what are the chances this draconian law is struck down by the courts as unconstitutional?
With the Roberts' court, it's hard to say. Not as much of a slam dunk as we might have seen in previous courts. That said, I think the Justice Dept. probably has a better case to make since I really don't understand how this decision does NOT lead to racial profiling.
So, you don't understand how the passage of a bill that explicitly prohibits racial profiling does not lead to racial profiling? work on it, hoe.
oh i get, because there is some lip-service provision that says race cannot be the only factor taken into account then i guess this law could never lead to racial profiling, undue harassment, or interference with basic fucking civil liberties like being able to walk down the street peacefully without being harassed and interrogated by law enforcement.
what is going to be the criteria on which the police will base their reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal immigrant: the type of clothes they wear, if they see someone standing in a home hardware parking lot or if there is a family of latinos in a minivan driving to soccer practice. in short, what does an illegal immigrant look like? the fact is that in arizona illegal immigrants are predominantly latino and this law is squarely targeted at them. so just being latino is not enough to be stopped but being latino in conjunction with another completely lawful factor (such as manner of dress, being in a home hardware parking lot, or in a minivan with 10 other latinos on their way to take the kids to soccer practice) could do it.
the purpose of the law, which is to stem the tide of illegal immigrants in the state may or may not be legitimate but this law is not rationally connected to achieving that goal and worst of all it completely overreaches and is disproportionate to the harm it intends to prevent.
i am semi-shocked that we live in an era where such an immoral law could be passed.
Yet another fool who hasn't read the bill. The law doesn't enable officers to stop someone merely because they think they might be an illegal immigrant.
Look, I could accept people not reading the health care bill, it was thousands of pages long. This bill on the other hand is roughly three sides of A4 and can be read in two minutes.
In future i'd appreciate it if people prefaced their post with a statement of whether they've actually read the bill or not. It's tiresome to keep reading the exact same misstatements time and time again.
you're so full of yourself and your confidence is completely misplaced
here is the main provision of the act, you explain how what i said is incorrect:
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
Rich - you claim to be a smart guy, and I believe you.
So let me be as clear as I can:
Illegal Immigrants have something to fear within this bill: being deported. Them's the breaks.
Citizens and Legal Residents, however, absolutely DO have something to fear as well: being arrested!
That you can't grasp this says a lot about you.
The issue is not ILLEGAL residents being caught by the police, it's the potential for completely LEGAL residents and citizens to be detained and arrested because they have not provided the proper proof of said legal status.
Christ. This isn't rocket science.
I never claimed to be a smart guy.
I was "detained & arrested" for not having proper ID....so I obviously understand that concept.
That's why I carry ID....that's certainly not brain surgery.
But, but, but...what if I don't want to carry my ID.
Then you'll be detained and possibly arrested, like I was.
Comments
In 1976 I was crossing the street from Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. and was pulled over by two CHIP motorcycle officers for Jay Walking. (If I remember correctly we were crossing to go to a place called Licorice Pizza Records). Being from NY I had no idea what jay walking was. I had no legal ID.....and was subsequently taken into custody for insufficient ID, Vagrancy, Loitering(I had less than a dollar in my pocket), across the state lines as a minor and suspiscion of being a runaway. They contacted my parents, found out I was not a runaway, and dropped all charges except the Jay Walking which was a ticket.
So I have always assumed that there have been laws in place(at least in Cali) that require you to prove who you are through legal ID. Either that or those Cops were not upholding the law as it is written. As far as I know most forms of "Legal ID" would indeed show whether or not you are a citizen.
I was under the impression that you had to be a citizen to get a driver's license?
I know it's true in California, Texas and Arizona.
It's under this set of beliefs that LAPD specifically instructs its officers NOT to inquire about citizenship status. The new chief (and the last one) were very vocal in opposing the kind of law enforcement burden that 1070 places on the police.
Not a citizen but you're supposed to provide some kind of documentation that you have legal status to be in the U.S.
That's according to CA law and I assume it's the same elsewhere. No state would deny a driver's license to a legal alien.
Brown people can't stop being brown.
:facepalm:
If this is true than a DL is proof of citizenship......Yes?
Right.
And at the end of the day, what we're worried about here is not how many illegal immigrants get stopped and can't provide papers; we're concerned with how many LEGALS get stopped, detained, arrested.
Dudes are really missing the forest for some shrubbery.
Perhaps they need better landscapers
Agreed.
And I could buy a nicer car too.
And I'll repeat again for the nth time....I do NOT support profiling.
But if pulled over, for any reason, you must show some sort of ID....brown or not.
Since it happened to me....I'm concerned about it too.
THAT'S WHY I CARRY ID!!!!
You see what I did there?
Not to split hairs but a legal resident is not a citizen but you can still get a DL as a legal resident alien.
I don't think a DL would suffice as proof or non-proof of legal status, regardless. It's an ID check but not a citizenship/legal resident ID.
Random note: this may have changed but as recently as a few years ago, you could board a plane without showing a picture ID. It's a hassle but they're not supposed to prevent you from flying w/o one.
But we established that you can't get a DL w/o being a legal citizen.
I bet you carry that.
You see what I did there.
Unless you can show me that AZ does NOT accept their own State DL as proof of citizenship.
OK...a "legal resident" would not have anything to worry about within this law.
So let me be as clear as I can:
Illegal Immigrants have something to fear within this bill: being deported. Them's the breaks.
Citizens and Legal Residents, however, absolutely DO have something to fear as well: being arrested!
That you can't grasp this says a lot about you.
The issue is not ILLEGAL residents being caught by the police, it's the potential for completely LEGAL residents and citizens to be detained and arrested because they have not provided the proper proof of said legal status.
Christ. This isn't rocket science.
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN [/b]WHO IS
UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
*snip*
E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON
IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED
ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.
At face value this seems harmless enough. Until we get to this part:
IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF
TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH:
1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE.
These 2 parts together mean that an officer can arrest you if he sees you walking down the street. Many people argue that the ID checks are only while regular traffic stops are being conducted, but the bill plainly says that the officer has the right to stop you if he thinks that you are illegally trespassing in the state. I.E., if you are walking down the street and the officer has reason to beleive you are illegal, he can stop you.
Happy now?
Would you be against the government providing all people who filled out the census with an ID card that they could carry with them at all times to show they are a citizen??
Is it the simple act of showing legal ID you are against or the form in which that ID is currently in??
Alot of people at speaking on this on the right don't know what the hell they are talking about because they have never actallu had to deal with immigration issues - which, in my experience, seldom go by the book. Getting naturalized shouldn't take decades, and now decades cowering from a local cop? Gtfoohwtb! I don't need any more baby boomer 'merican tellin me shit about how immigration works on tv.
Roc, I'm sorry you got profiled but we aren't talking about the shit your talking about and I'm not going to start a pissing contest of brutality stories, but let's just say - walk away son. Shit is deep for minorities.
Ex boyfrnd, you think I did a bunch of constitutional research with reading the actual bill? Come on son.
I'll do you one better, why don't you all research who actually owned the bill and holler back. Thanks alot former bush admin employees, your th gift that keeps on giving.
Are YOU in favor of a national ID card?
Why don't you look up the percentages that filled out their census forms and tell me if you're confident that does the whole job.
WILLFULLY OBTUSE
you're so full of yourself and your confidence is completely misplaced
here is the main provision of the act, you explain how what i said is incorrect:
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
I never claimed to be a smart guy.
I was "detained & arrested" for not having proper ID....so I obviously understand that concept.
That's why I carry ID....that's certainly not brain surgery.
But, but, but...what if I don't want to carry my ID.
Then you'll be detained and possibly arrested, like I was.
Sounds like he is.
For the last time, we're not talking about your drivers license. Do you carry your birth certificate around with you?