Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Bush is the leader of the Free World, and thus vaults by matter of course the mean trappings of the antihero.b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21Needless to say, not all modern plays contain anti-heroes.b, 21b, 21Bush is clearly not some Willie Loman or some Joe Keller -- although the war profiteer label sure fits. In fact, Miller wouldn't consider either of these characters anti-heroes. I can't think of any play he wrote that contains an anti-hero -- and I've read around seven of his plays. Maybe the guy in "The Ride down Mt. Morgan" would qualify as an anti-hero.b, 21b, 21I still think he's closer to Aristotle's concept of a tragic hero. The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election; some people did not. Regardless, I think he still fits many other attributes of a Greek tragic hero: 1) Of noble birth (should be obvious), 2) Greatness (debatable), 3) In spite of his greatness, appeals to people as an everyman, 4) As a ruler, his downfall affects his subjects, 5) Mistakes are self-created. I could go on, but I don't think I'm persuading anyone.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office".
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I buy McCain as a tragic hero. Bush? Not so much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21No way. What was Bush's one fatal flaw? Idiocy? It's not (merely) hubris. Even in the classic sense, nobility or some other dominant, positive quality needs to exist in abundance in order for the tragedy to actually resound. If you're pegging Bush as some Modern, Arthur Miller type, I'm not buying that either. Bush is the leader of the Free World, and thus vaults by matter of course the mean trappings of the antihero.b, 21b, 21Bush is not McCain. The latter could fit the archetype of either Classic tragic hero or (perhaps more approprietly) Elizabethan Faustian antihero. I'd call Bush a Byronic hero if I considered him intelligent enough to independently manipulate his subjects. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Faustus is not an anti-hero. He is a perfect Renaissance tragic hero. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Tell that to Mikhail Bulgakov.b, 21b, 21I mean antihero in the informal, non-academic sense, (i.e. in that he is not a classic hero) hence the use of the lower case. Doctor Faustus knew exactly what he was getting into in trying to beat the devil, ergo I wouldn't describe his character a hero as much as I would classify him as a (loose) protagonist. At some point the term "hero" must lose its elasticity or it ceases to retain its classificational efficacy.b, 21b, 21And no, assholes, I did not consult a thesaurus.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21Their faith is built around forgiveness.b, 21b, 21b, 21What do you think?
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21Their faith is built around forgiveness.b, 21b, 21b, 21What do you think? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21I wouldn't lower myself to attempting to stand in the shoes of such people.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I buy McCain as a tragic hero. Bush? Not so much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21No way. What was Bush's one fatal flaw? Idiocy? It's not (merely) hubris. Even in the classic sense, nobility or some other dominant, positive quality needs to exist in abundance in order for the tragedy to actually resound. If you're pegging Bush as some Modern, Arthur Miller type, I'm not buying that either. Bush is the leader of the Free World, and thus vaults by matter of course the mean trappings of the antihero.b, 21b, 21Bush is not McCain. The latter could fit the archetype of either Classic tragic hero or (perhaps more approprietly) Elizabethan Faustian antihero. I'd call Bush a Byronic hero if I considered him intelligent enough to independently manipulate his subjects. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Faustus is not an anti-hero. He is a perfect Renaissance tragic hero. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Tell that to Mikhail Bulgakov.b, 21b, 21I mean antihero in the informal sense, (i.e. in that he is not a classic hero) hence the use of the lower case. Doctor Faustus knew exactly what he was getting into in trying to beat the devil, ergo I wouldn't describe his character a hero as much as I would classify him as a (loose) protagonist. At some point the term "hero" must lose its elasticity or it ceases to lose its classificational efficacy.b, 21b, 21And no, assholes, I did not consult a thesaurus. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21The only reason he couldn't be considered a classic tragic hero is because he is of base stock. Faustus is a rags to riches story, according the the Prologue.b, 21b, 21Dr. Faustus was a man who didn't believe in hell, so to say he knew what he was getting into is flat wrong.b, 21b, 21We just read this play in my 12th grade class, BTW.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21Their faith is built around forgiveness.b, 21b, 21b, 21What do you think? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21I wouldn't lower myself to attempting to stand in the shoes of such people. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Yeah, that's a tough one. How can you forgive someone claiming to be a born again Christian who doesn't behave like one?b, 21b, 21Seems like he had his chance.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21Their faith is built around forgiveness.b, 21b, 21b, 21What do you think? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21I wouldn't lower myself to attempting to stand in the shoes of such people. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21If you're from the South you know exactly what these kind of people are like.b, 21b, 21You can't move far away enough to forget.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21I The one contention seems to center around Bush's greatness. I'm not going to argue whether or not anyone think he's great. Some people thought he was upon his election. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21At least some of those people defined "greatness" as "not likely to get a blow job in the Oval Office". b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Right, which is why I mentioned many people thinking he'd restore decency to the WH -- his born again status being a major factor in that belief. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Do the people that voted for him because he's a born again christian feel any less warmly towards him today, though?b, 21b, 21I mean, as far as I know, he still professes to be a born-again christian. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21Their faith is built around forgiveness.b, 21b, 21b, 21What do you think? b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21I wouldn't lower myself to attempting to stand in the shoes of such people. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21If you're from the South you know exactly what these kind of people are like.b, 21b, 21You can't move far away enough to forget. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21I know them. I wouldn't pretend to understand them. I know that they'll lie, cheat, steal, behave hatefully, and then invoke their supposed christianity as if that makes it okay. Beyond that, I have no idea how they would parse a theological problem.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I buy McCain as a tragic hero. Bush? Not so much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21No way. What was Bush's one fatal flaw? Idiocy? It's not (merely) hubris. Even in the classic sense, nobility or some other dominant, positive quality needs to exist in abundance in order for the tragedy to actually resound. If you're pegging Bush as some Modern, Arthur Miller type, I'm not buying that either. Bush is the leader of the Free World, and thus vaults by matter of course the mean trappings of the antihero.b, 21b, 21Bush is not McCain. The latter could fit the archetype of either Classic tragic hero or (perhaps more approprietly) Elizabethan Faustian antihero. I'd call Bush a Byronic hero if I considered him intelligent enough to independently manipulate his subjects. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Faustus is not an anti-hero. He is a perfect Renaissance tragic hero. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Tell that to Mikhail Bulgakov.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21One more thing, the Mikhail Bulgakov relation to Faustus you're thinking of is related to Goethe's i1Faustus[/i], which was a Romantic Faustus, not an Elizabethan Faustus. That would be Christopher Marlowe.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I buy McCain as a tragic hero. Bush? Not so much. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21No way. What was Bush's one fatal flaw? Idiocy? It's not (merely) hubris. Even in the classic sense, nobility or some other dominant, positive quality needs to exist in abundance in order for the tragedy to actually resound. If you're pegging Bush as some Modern, Arthur Miller type, I'm not buying that either. Bush is the leader of the Free World, and thus vaults by matter of course the mean trappings of the antihero.b, 21b, 21Bush is not McCain. The latter could fit the archetype of either Classic tragic hero or (perhaps more approprietly) Elizabethan Faustian antihero. I'd call Bush a Byronic hero if I considered him intelligent enough to independently manipulate his subjects. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Faustus is not an anti-hero. He is a perfect Renaissance tragic hero. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Tell that to Mikhail Bulgakov.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21One more thing, the Mikhail Bulgakov relation to Faustus you're thinking of is related to Goethe's i1Faustus[/i], which was a Romantic Faustus, not an Elizabethan Faustus. That would be Christopher Marlowe. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Re: Bulgakov, I was making a crack about ensuing generations appropriating the Faustian legend and re-suiting it to fit their era. It ain't where it i1was[/i], it's where we're at, and that was my point. We can extrapolate the Faustian legend even further back than Marlowe, if you'd like, though some details are lost to time. The opposite ends of a chain are nonetheless linked, though they do not directly touch. Unless, of course, you were trying to score a debator's point in regards to my classification of John McCain as an Elizabethan Faustus-type. If so, bravo. Your gold star awaits my purchase at the local Pearl.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I totally wish GWB would've gotten a blow job in office. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I was obsessed with this idea for a while (no Dolo).b, 21b, 21to see him embroiled in an ethics scandal, particularly sex-related, with the attendant conservative and conservative Christian political meltdown, would have been the sweetest thing ever to watch.
Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21I totally wish GWB would've gotten a blow job in office. b, 21b, 21h, 21
b, 21b, 21I was obsessed with this idea for a while (no Dolo).b, 21b, 21to see him embroiled in an ethics scandal, particularly sex-related, with the attendant conservative and conservative Christian political meltdown, would have been the sweetest thing ever to watch. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Yeah. b, 21b, 21Too bad all he did was legalize torture. b, 21b, 21No ethics violation there.
b, 21b, 21I was obsessed with this idea for a while (no Dolo).b, 21b, 21to see him embroiled in an ethics scandal, particularly sex-related, with the attendant conservative and conservative Christian political meltdown, would have been the sweetest thing ever to watch. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21Yeah. b, 21b, 21Too bad all he did was legalize torture. b, 21b, 21No ethics violation there. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21and that's exactly the rub with these allegedly faith-/character-driven voters. as long as candidates don't cheat on their wives or consort with homosexuals they can pretty much do whatever they want.
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