In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
People act in the name of god/religion (and cause trouble from time to time). To each is own, but I think it would be quite helpful if people would accept that religion is man-made and not some sacred ??ber-truth.
In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
If religion is the ideology that gives birth to/justifies evil deeds, then it bears complicity. That's like saying that all actions are, in the end, individual ones, and that there are no other causes.
I'd invoke something about Nazisim at this point but it's too early in the thread to go there
In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
People act in the name of god/religion (and cause trouble from time to time). To each is own, but I think it would be quite helpful if people would accept that religion is man-made and not some sacred ??ber-truth.
That would essentially negate much of the purpose of religion.
In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
If religion is the ideology that gives birth to/justifies evil deeds, then it bears complicity. That's like saying that all actions are, in the end, individual ones, and that there are no other causes.
I'd invoke something about Rap Music [/b] at this point but it's too early in the thread to go there
In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
If religion is the ideology that gives birth to/justifies evil deeds, then it bears complicity. That's like saying that all actions are, in the end, individual ones, and that there are no other causes.
I'd invoke something about Rap Music [/b] at this point but it's too early in the thread to go there
im a christian.... not always the best representation of one but i try.
"Nice avatar, my son." - Jesus
Matthew 13:17
"smacketh that, all on the floor, smacketh that, giveth me some more..."
sheeeeeit, lumin's avatar makes me say "YES THERE IS A GOD!"
amen but yeah thats what i mean. im not a model christian. i still have "desires" in my life that dont really line up with the christian way of life. god and i are workin on it...
for cats who are athiests but are interested and/or want to believe in God, check out c.s. lewis. dude puts it in ways that makes sense... not on some mindless belief tip, but on some logical sensible way mere christianity opened my eyes majorly
I was raised Quaker and had a Friends wedding, but I don't attend as often as I would like. I do enjoy the simplicity of it, for me it is the religion that best represents my own ideas about spirituality, but I wouldn't knock anyone else for their views. Religion has given us a lot of beautiful art, architecture, music and literature but it has also caused a lot of suffering. In the end its the people and not the religion that really cause trouble.
Hell yeah, another Quaker on the board! Nate, I'm sure living in Vermont you're exposed to plenty of Quakers, and if you ever get the chance the meeting house in Burlington is a magical spot. Wonderful people. I need to make it back to VT to visit sometime soon.
I also grew up going to Quaker meeting, both in Vermont when I was little and in the Bay Area when I was in elementary school. It's not the same out here on the west coast, so my family doesn't really go to meeting anymore, but the principals stay with you. It really isn't a religion in any traditional sense - half the time you go to meeting the word God isn't mentionned. It's more just a community of people who come together every week to build, seek advice, meditate, and work towards peace, etc. I think that is the most successful aspect of religion, is that is builds community and brings people together.
I am Catholic and did the whole altar boy, confirmation thing. Got disillusioned with it in my teens when I saw, in a more adult light, how screwed up hardened churcgoers were, and how I didn't like being told what to do or to think.
I believe, in my 39 years, that the truth is something like "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself" b/w "Karma".
I can't be down with all that Creationist old-testament stuff. The ark. ffft!: I do believe that there was a Jesus but he was probably an alien dropping simple stories to keep the folks from killing themselves. The book of his teachings is not relevant. Until recently, less than 1% of the world could read so the bible was chopped and changed to keep the rules in favour of the Leaders. There are older more pure texts from diffrent religions but these just try to put some "Prophets" interpretation of the real deal into simple terms.
Bear in mind that our brains have not evolved enough to handle whatever the real deal is. There is more info in one issue of The Times than an 18th centuty person would encounter in their entire lifetime. We are designed for the basics. No wonder folks are mentally ill and stressed so much now. The stories have had to be explained in simple terms.
I think the real deal is some kind of higher conciousness, some real theta-state stuff that people who have done enough RV or TM will be able to explain. But I believe it's there.
I wish I had more time to give response to some of the comments in this thread...some good issues have been raised.
I am into Jesus. I am a Christian. He is my lord and savior (though i need to work more on the 'lord' piece).
I'm not always proud of what people do in the name of Jesus, as a lot has been inconsistent with his teachings as revealed in the NT gospels. But people who call themselves Christians, even sincerely, will always mess up. So I keep my eyes on him, and not them.
Christians get a lot of hate around here...sometimes because they twist and misrepresent Jesus in a way that is ignorant and/or offensive, but sometimes just because they represent him well, which can appear to some as ignorance, and still be offensive to many.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
One of my main beefs with Christianity as it's practiced by most in the United States is how much it contributes to people making boring, safe, homogenous cultural choices -- presumably to insulate themsevles from "devil music," the gays and Jews that run Hollywood, and all other enemies of "family values."
I was raised to be Presbyterian but couldn't bring myself to believe from the earliest age. As a point of contrast, my sister has unquestionably accepted every point of faith from birth.
I'm as adventurous as $$$ and time allows me to be in the music, films, and literature I chase, the food I eat, the people I meet, the places I travel, etc.
She shops at Wal-Mart, exclusively eats fast food and homestyle buffets, supports the Iraq war, listens to Christian rock, rarely leaves rural Maryland, and doesn't get more culturally adventurous than Star Trek and Disney films (to the degree that if she were to tell me she'd started praying to Spock or Goofy it wouldn't really throw me).
Obviously there are exceptions, but I do see a direct correlation between being a Christian in America and being culturally insulated/clueless.
One of my main beefs with Christianity as it's practiced by most in the United States is how much it contributes to people making boring, safe, homogenous cultural choices -- presumably to insulate themsevles from "devil music," the gays and Jews that run Hollywood, and all other enemies of "family values."
I was raised to be Presbyterian but couldn't bring myself to believe from the earliest age. As a point of contrast, my sister has unquestionably accepted every point of faith from birth.
I'm as adventurous as $$$ and time allows me to be in the music, films, and literature I chase, the food I eat, the people I meet, the places I travel, etc.
She shops at Wal-Mart, exclusively eats fast food and homestyle buffets, supports the Iraq war, listens to Christian rock, rarely leaves rural Maryland, and doesn't get more culturally adventurous than Star Trek and Disney films (to the degree that if she were to tell me she'd started praying to Spock or Goofy it wouldn't really throw me).
Obviously there are exceptions, but I do see a direct correlation between being a Christian in America and being culturally insulated/clueless.
One of my main beefs with Christianity as it's practiced by most in the United States is how much it contributes to people making boring, safe, homogenous cultural choices -- presumably to insulate themsevles from "devil music," the gays and Jews that run Hollywood, and all other enemies of "family values."
I was raised to be Presbyterian but couldn't bring myself to believe from the earliest age. As a point of contrast, my sister has unquestionably accepted every point of faith from birth.
I'm as adventurous as $$$ and time allows me to be in the music, films, and literature I chase, the food I eat, the people I meet, the places I travel, etc.
She shops at Wal-Mart, exclusively eats fast food and homestyle buffets, supports the Iraq war, listens to Christian rock, rarely leaves rural Maryland, and doesn't get more culturally adventurous than Star Trek and Disney films (to the degree that if she were to tell me she'd started praying to Spock or Goofy it wouldn't really throw me).
Obviously there are exceptions, but I do see a direct correlation between being a Christian in America and being culturally insulated/clueless.
In all fairness though, it's hard to say how much of this can be attributed to Christianity and how much to other forces of homogenization. You could argue that simply being Christian is another symptom of that same-ness rather than the cause but overall, I feel what you're saying here.
One of my main beefs with Christianity as it's practiced by most in the United States is how much it contributes to people making boring, safe, homogenous cultural choices -- presumably to insulate themsevles from "devil music," the gays and Jews that run Hollywood, and all other enemies of "family values."
I was raised to be Presbyterian but couldn't bring myself to believe from the earliest age. As a point of contrast, my sister has unquestionably accepted every point of faith from birth.
I'm as adventurous as $$$ and time allows me to be in the music, films, and literature I chase, the food I eat, the people I meet, the places I travel, etc.
She shops at Wal-Mart, exclusively eats fast food and homestyle buffets, supports the Iraq war, listens to Christian rock, rarely leaves rural Maryland, and doesn't get more culturally adventurous than Star Trek and Disney films (to the degree that if she were to tell me she'd started praying to Spock or Goofy it wouldn't really throw me).
Obviously there are exceptions, but I do see a direct correlation between being a Christian in America and being culturally insulated/clueless.
In all fairness though, it's hard to say how much of this can be attributed to Christianity and how much to other forces of homogenization. You could argue that simply being Christian is another symptom of that same-ness rather than the cause but overall, I feel what you're saying here.
I agree, Christianity might pre-select for Michael Bolton fans (her long-time "secular" favorite). But her church-going certainly hasn't done anything to encourage her to be culturally adventurous, or discourage her from having a provincial mentality.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
Please to name those against love, justice and forgiveness?
right...in theory. what i think is key is that you left out repentance, without which there is no forgiveness (according to jesus). the idea of repentance is not palatable to a lot of folks. justice can also be offensive, if you view it in terms of what we all deserve as liars, gluttons, selfish and covetous people next to a holy God.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
Please to name those against love, justice and forgiveness?
right...in theory. what i think is key is that you left out repentance, without which there is no forgiveness (according to jesus). the idea of repentance is not palatable to a lot of folks. justice can also be offensive, if you view it in terms of what we all deserve as liars, gluttons, selfish and covetous people next to a holy God.
I'm just saying though - people don't have a real problem with most of Jesus' ideals. It's the dogma + theocracy + institutions that are troubling.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
Please to name those against love, justice and forgiveness?
right...in theory. what i think is key is that you left out repentance, without which there is no forgiveness (according to jesus). the idea of repentance is not palatable to a lot of folks. justice can also be offensive, if you view it in terms of what we all deserve as liars, gluttons, selfish and covetous people next to a holy God.
I'm just saying though - people don't have a real problem with most of Jesus' ideals. It's the dogma + theocracy + institutions that are troubling.
Anti-religion is not anti-ethics.
People are generally comfortable with the ideals of Jesus' teachings once they are abstracted from the context. Within context, Jesus was teaching both the love and wrath of holy and personal God that demands accountability from everyone regarding their obedience/disobedience to his law. Its the truth behind the ideals that can be offensive to a lot of people.
saying. people have done alot of shitty things in the dudes name, but i will still get down for the king of the jews.
Whatever religion you subscribe to, you gotta at least give jesus his props right? I mean, even if your not into the whole son of god thing, he was still a pretty rad guy.
I went to a bible college in seattle that was/is pretty conservative, it's lutheran but many of my classmates would get down to speaking in tongues, possesion of the holy spirit, counseling with angels, casting demons. I am so incredibly thankful for this college experience. It has allowed me to have intelligent discussions on christianity with my ultra-conservative inlaws. I can point them to the 14 verses in the bible that may contain references to homosexuality and to the verses next to them forbidding cotton/polyester clothes and seafood.
I do not believe jesus was sacrificed for me, this makes me a non-christian in the eyes of almost every christian I have met. Nonetheless I practice the things jesus has tought me on the daily: Prayer, empathy, hard work, kindness, healing... I know that as tupac says Only God Can Judge Me. I have read the numerous biblical references that state that to judge someones salvation is to heap burning coals on your head. Teachers will be judged harshest and judged first.
I guess my point is that anyone really following jesus would see the modern day church for the pharisees and sadducees that they are. Whitewashed tombs of evil. For if you don't know love you don't know god.
is there any good christian rock? serious question.
I was really into this christian rap group for awhile called the grits
Comments
People act in the name of god/religion (and cause trouble from time to time). To each is own, but I think it would be quite helpful if people would accept that religion is man-made and not some sacred ??ber-truth.
If religion is the ideology that gives birth to/justifies evil deeds, then it bears complicity. That's like saying that all actions are, in the end, individual ones, and that there are no other causes.
I'd invoke something about Nazisim at this point but it's too early in the thread to go there
That would essentially negate much of the purpose of religion.
The church ain't an afterschool club, dude!
Ah ha but is rap music the symptom or cause?
amen
but yeah thats what i mean. im not a model christian. i still have "desires" in my life that dont really line up with the christian way of life. god and i are workin on it...
for cats who are athiests but are interested and/or want to believe in God, check out c.s. lewis. dude puts it in ways that makes sense... not on some mindless belief tip, but on some logical sensible way
mere christianity opened my eyes majorly
Hell yeah, another Quaker on the board! Nate, I'm sure living in Vermont you're exposed to plenty of Quakers, and if you ever get the chance the meeting house in Burlington is a magical spot. Wonderful people. I need to make it back to VT to visit sometime soon.
I also grew up going to Quaker meeting, both in Vermont when I was little and in the Bay Area when I was in elementary school. It's not the same out here on the west coast, so my family doesn't really go to meeting anymore, but the principals stay with you. It really isn't a religion in any traditional sense - half the time you go to meeting the word God isn't mentionned. It's more just a community of people who come together every week to build, seek advice, meditate, and work towards peace, etc. I think that is the most successful aspect of religion, is that is builds community and brings people together.
I believe, in my 39 years, that the truth is something like "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself" b/w "Karma".
I can't be down with all that Creationist old-testament stuff. The ark.
Bear in mind that our brains have not evolved enough to handle whatever the real deal is. There is more info in one issue of The Times than an 18th centuty person would encounter in their entire lifetime. We are designed for the basics. No wonder folks are mentally ill and stressed so much now. The stories have had to be explained in simple terms.
I think the real deal is some kind of higher conciousness, some real theta-state stuff that people who have done enough RV or TM will be able to explain. But I believe it's there.
I am into Jesus. I am a Christian. He is my lord and savior (though i need to work more on the 'lord' piece).
I'm not always proud of what people do in the name of Jesus, as a lot has been inconsistent with his teachings as revealed in the NT gospels. But people who call themselves Christians, even sincerely, will always mess up. So I keep my eyes on him, and not them.
Christians get a lot of hate around here...sometimes because they twist and misrepresent Jesus in a way that is ignorant and/or offensive, but sometimes just because they represent him well, which can appear to some as ignorance, and still be offensive to many.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
Let the HATT BEGIN!!!!
Please to name those against love, justice and forgiveness?
I was raised to be Presbyterian but couldn't bring myself to believe from the earliest age. As a point of contrast, my sister has unquestionably accepted every point of faith from birth.
I'm as adventurous as $$$ and time allows me to be in the music, films, and literature I chase, the food I eat, the people I meet, the places I travel, etc.
She shops at Wal-Mart, exclusively eats fast food and homestyle buffets, supports the Iraq war, listens to Christian rock, rarely leaves rural Maryland, and doesn't get more culturally adventurous than Star Trek and Disney films (to the degree that if she were to tell me she'd started praying to Spock or Goofy it wouldn't really throw me).
Obviously there are exceptions, but I do see a direct correlation between being a Christian in America and being culturally insulated/clueless.
Really.
i'm telling your sister
In all fairness though, it's hard to say how much of this can be attributed to Christianity and how much to other forces of homogenization. You could argue that simply being Christian is another symptom of that same-ness rather than the cause but overall, I feel what you're saying here.
I CAN FOX W/ SOME STRYPER ERRY NOW N THEN.
I agree, Christianity might pre-select for Michael Bolton fans (her long-time "secular" favorite). But her church-going certainly hasn't done anything to encourage her to be culturally adventurous, or discourage her from having a provincial mentality.
Some of my fave LP's from the 70's are Christian.....
Check out these if you can...
Azitis
Fraction
Rainbow Promise
Agape
Morley Grey
right...in theory. what i think is key is that you left out repentance, without which there is no forgiveness (according to jesus). the idea of repentance is not palatable to a lot of folks. justice can also be offensive, if you view it in terms of what we all deserve as liars, gluttons, selfish and covetous people next to a holy God.
thanks. all the Christian stuff on the radio seems pretty softbatch. I will try these.
Mind Garage has some good stuff also....
braekz?
I'm just saying though - people don't have a real problem with most of Jesus' ideals. It's the dogma + theocracy + institutions that are troubling.
Anti-religion is not anti-ethics.
People are generally comfortable with the ideals of Jesus' teachings once they are abstracted from the context. Within context, Jesus was teaching both the love and wrath of holy and personal God that demands accountability from everyone regarding their obedience/disobedience to his law. Its the truth behind the ideals that can be offensive to a lot of people.
saying. people have done alot of shitty things in the dudes name, but i will still get down for the king of the jews.
Whatever religion you subscribe to, you gotta at least give jesus his props right? I mean, even if your not into the whole son of god thing, he was still a pretty rad guy.
I do not believe jesus was sacrificed for me, this makes me a non-christian in the eyes of almost every christian I have met. Nonetheless I practice the things jesus has tought me on the daily: Prayer, empathy, hard work, kindness, healing... I know that as tupac says Only God Can Judge Me. I have read the numerous biblical references that state that to judge someones salvation is to heap burning coals on your head. Teachers will be judged harshest and judged first.
I guess my point is that anyone really following jesus would see the modern day church for the pharisees and sadducees that they are. Whitewashed tombs of evil. For if you don't know love you don't know god.
I was really into this christian rap group for awhile called the grits
Ammon Hennacy
Anarchist Christians
Catholic Worker Movement
IWWW/Wobblies
Peter Maurin
Emanuel Mounier
Dorothy Day
Personalism
Jesus is not a king to us Hebrews. He is just a holy man. Savvy.
right, excuse me.