According to ESPN, the plea deal is not a reduction in charges (though it appears that no further charges will be pursued which is a huge plus for MV). MV will certainly do time (probably 12-18months).
As for his career moving forward, I think it is going to depend on what he cops to. Remember he told the commissioner that he had nothing to do with any of this business. Lying to the commissioner is a clear violation of NFL player conduct policies. Second, this is an interstate gambling charge. Gambling is pretty much the neutron bomb of sports peccadillo's. Gambling plus cruelty to animals plus lying to the big chief could make this a fairly tough suspension on Vick. On the other hand, he was not betting on football and doing federal time will make it easier for them to say that Vick has been punished adequately. Let's not forget these guys are business men first and if they can get MV back in the league, they probably will try. My guess is a two year suspension before reinstatement.
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
I have to say that MV's team did a poor job of putting up a defense and keeping his boys quiet. They apparently left a lot of physical evidence around. I am not condoning that kind of behavior but I am surprised that his legal help wasn't more aggressive in coming up with a plan to protect him.
Well, I didn't think holy-fucking-stupidity warranted 4 facemelts exactly.
And, for someone so intelligent, I would have thought that you might have caught the two previous times in this thread I talked about how this is a 'FRINGE CULTURE,' on the margins of society.
I'll let you go find those; might be good for you. Like a maze in that Highlights magazine you probably dig...
Oh, and get this on your next book order, teach:
Wow.
Your point all along has been for people not to rush to judgment because, although dog fighting is a fringe activity, it springs from a tradition of blood sport which, in some cases, is still apparently condoned by some loony people on the margins of society and that we should try to understand how it happened.
My point has been that it doesn't matter where it came from or whether it's a fringe activity. We have decided as a society that it is wrong and therefore it should be no problem to condemn someone for engaging in dog fighting.
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
Nobody involved in organized dogfighting has any illusions about it being legal. Has anybody actually tried to offer this as a defense?
Morality is incredibly blurry. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this debate at all.
The only reason this thing resembles a debate is because you're making your ridiculous claim a hill to die on.
If the members of Academia can't determine clear cut morals how can the rest of us idiots do it??
I'd think you'd be in the camp of those who don't like the idea of academics being saddled with moral ideologies that they would then impart onto the impressionable minds of youth.
By the way, is it me or has this thread gotten weirdly personal with some of the broadside slams? It's like this topic hits another, heretofore unseen Soulstrut Third Rail.
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
Nobody involved in organized dogfighting has any illusions about it being legal. Has anybody actually tried to offer this as a defense?
I beg to differ. I would be willing to wager that many people in the hood don't see it as much more illegal than a street corner crap game (which wouldn't bring much of a charge at all). Believe it or not I have heard quite a number people bring this up (including my ex-college football playing brother-in law, current ATL resident and self-described former 9th ward knucklehead). His point being that Michael is just stupid not criminal. Thus, deserving some leniency in this matter. Anyway, he's stuck with my hometown boy Harrington who's going to the pro-bowl this year. You heard it first right fucking here strutters.
Morality is incredibly blurry. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this debate at all.
The only reason this thing resembles a debate is because you're making your ridiculous claim a hill to die on.
If the members of Academia can't determine clear cut morals how can the rest of us idiots do it??
I'd think you'd be in the camp of those who don't like the idea of academics being saddled with moral ideologies that they would then impart onto the impressionable minds of youth.
Academics shouldn't decide anything for anyone that is not an academic.
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
Nobody involved in organized dogfighting has any illusions about it being legal. Has anybody actually tried to offer this as a defense?
I beg to differ. I would be willing to wager that many people in the hood don't see it as much more illegal than a street corner crap game (which wouldn't bring much of a charge at all). Believe it or not I have heard quite a number people bring this up (including my ex-college football playing brother-in law, current ATL resident and self-described former 9th ward knucklehead). His point being that Michael is just stupid not criminal. Thus, deserving some leniency in this matter. Anyway, he's stuck with my hometown boy Harrington who's going to the pro-bowl this year. You heard it first right fucking here strutters.
Please give me a break. Was Vick investigated and prosecuted more vigorously than normal? Yes, by several orders of magnitude, and that has something to do with his celebrity and also, I think, something to do with race. But organized dogfighting is a very involved subculture, of which evasion of the authorities is an element, and absolutely nobody involved in it thinks it's legal. People "in the hood" are not stupid or ignorant.
The most you can credibly say is that he probably didn't fully appreciate the potential severity of the legal consequences. People who who have absolutely no familiarity with the subculture may be under the impression that it's legal, but nobody with even a passing interest in it could think that.
By the way, is it me or has this thread gotten weirdly personal with some of the broadside slams? It's like this topic hits another, heretofore unseen Soulstrut Third Rail.
I'll take some blame on that, as I think most of it has to do with Mike Seiver and I not enjoying each other's posts...
There was that Drama Teacher nonsense a while back, a couple other things.
And hell, I love debating stuff on here- I tend to play devil's advocate too much, but it is a decent exercise at times, and a good way to engage with reasonably intelligent people on a variety of topics.
When this topic got to, 'You are so fucking stupid,' though, that was when all reasonable intelligence went out the window, and it got personal.
By the way, is it me or has this thread gotten weirdly personal with some of the broadside slams? It's like this topic hits another, heretofore unseen Soulstrut Third Rail.
My post towards you was tongue in cheek - I didn't mean for it to be taken personally...
the whole boxing analogy reminded me of my mom, also an academic, one of many I've known who cannot understand the (sweet) science behind the sport. The difference between a human honing skill and talents in order to inflict specific damage on his opponent while enduring the opponent's attacks, all governed by a set of rules, is only similar to pitbulls scrapping it out to the death on the most basic level.
Also, dog fighting takes place in NY - not sure how common it is relative to the south but it's not strictly a southern thing.
it's okay to slaughter cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but some dogs fighting, he goes to jail. mind you the charges were pretty serious even before it got out that he killed them.
i should mention i think it's disgusting what he did, he is probably a psychopath, but going to jail for dog fighting seems a bit excessive.
he should just be made to watch that peta film i saw on kcop at about 3 in morning one time. that shit wrecked me forever!
This is not just about dog-fighting, it is about a man who beat, electrocuted, drowned and hung dogs that did not perform to his liking. What would be an appropriate reaction that you would not deem to be over the top?
Yeah, legal or illegal dog fighting aside. Dude should do some time for this alone.
Shit, they arrest and give jail time for people who leave their dogs in cars when the weather is hot.
Why is this even an issue. Are people even debating that he shouldn't do time?
it's okay to slaughter cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but some dogs fighting, he goes to jail.
it's not hyopcrisy at all - the aforementioned slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs is for food. Dogfighting is for sport. A more apt comparison would be to cockfighting - I don't think people fight cows but pigs wouldn't surprise me.
Also, dog fighting takes place in NY - not sure how common it is relative to the south but it's not strictly a southern thing.
Thank you, Ralph.
I don't think y'all know....dogfighting is more pervasive than you think.
It's huge in gang cultures. All coasts.
On sports radio in Austin just this AM, two cats called in in fifteen minutes on some "Yeah I can go to a dogfight five minutes from here" business. This is somewhat "progressive" Austin, TX.
I am just making a point about dogfighting. Michael Vick broke some laws and he didn't have the organization in place to shield himself. He's gonna do some time and he's gonna face repercussions from his employer.
I heard that the Fed prosecutors are trying to get 12-18 months in jail for him which a couple of talking heads said is a tad bit harsher than you would expect.
Gene, sorry to have implicated the South in all this in a blanket indictment. Just that all I read centered around the Southern dog fighting culture.
I've said what I've said fairly poorly, but my basic point is this...The media coverage of this, like most off field sporting events, has been fairly close to ridiculous. At work, we have either ESPN or the NFL network rolling all day, and after 2 months of 'THIS IS THE MOST HEINOUS ACT EVER COMMITTED BY AN ATHELETE,' we started debating seriously just how bad all this is.
In my opinion, in a league with serious off field gun/domestic violence/substance abuse issues, the hew and cry over dog fighting seemed out of place. Granted, the player involved is far more noteworthy than Pacman Jones or Tank Johnson or the Bengals. But, there seemed to be a lack of perspective to these charges and the coverage of them, that wore very thin after week 2 of the VICK WATCH.
Gene, sorry to have implicated the South in all this in a blanket indictment. Just that all I read centered around the Southern dog fighting culture.
I've said what I've said fairly poorly, but my basic point is this...The media coverage of this, like most off field sporting events, has been fairly close to ridiculous. At work, we have either ESPN or the NFL network rolling all day, and after 2 months of 'THIS IS THE MOST HEINOUS ACT EVER COMMITTED BY AN ATHELETE,' we started debating seriously just how bad all this is.
In my opinion, in a league with serious off field gun/domestic violence/substance abuse issues, the hew and cry over dog fighting seemed out of place. Granted, the player involved is far more noteworthy than Pacman Jones or Tank Johnson or the Bengals. But, there seemed to be a lack of perspective to these charges and the coverage of them, that wore very thin after week 2 of the VICK WATCH.
Oh man, no worries. It IS *more* prevalent in the south for sure. Just making the point that it goes on other places. NYC, LA...whatever.
This is NOT the most heinous act ever committed by an NFL player or an athlete.
This thread is really turning out to let people work out their issues on dogfighting.
But yeah, everything is so sensationalized anymore. It's getting ridiculous. I just want football talk back. I'm tired of jurisprudence on my sports shows. Slap whatever penalty on him and then the media will be on his nuts in 2 years or whatever when he's trying to come back. PEACE.
it's okay to slaughter cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but some dogs fighting, he goes to jail.
it's not hyopcrisy at all - the aforementioned slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs is for food. Dogfighting is for sport. A more apt comparison would be to cockfighting - I don't think people fight cows but pigs wouldn't surprise me.
Someone called into that DJ Premier Sirius show (the one that was podcasted) to say how, apart from dog fighting, there's also "dog vs. hog" battles.
As for the boxing thing (not to beat a dead horse...um, maybe not the best idiom to invoke here but...), I get the sweet science part. I think boxing, from a participant point of view, is incredibly complex and until I trained to spar, never understood why the exercise regiment was so key but it made all the sense in the world once even a two-three minute bout feels like it lasts an hour, especially with some dude trying to put their fist in your face. Personally, I liked the discipline and the reflex honing involved and I didn't even mind the potential for physical pain. But, and this might be a purely philosophical perspective, I didn't like one of the basic rules of boxing: in order to avoid having pain inflicted upon me, my sole focus was to inflict pain on my opponent, ideally quickly and badly enough to remove him as a threat. It's not like I was trying to put someone in the hospital (not like I could anyway) or was risking the same injury to myself...it was merely the idea of committing myself to an impulse that was undeniably violent. And, to me, that spectre of violence is an integral part of boxing unlike, say, modern fencing. When I watch a boxing bout, I'm looking for good defensive skills but I'm also waiting, sometimes eagerly, to see when someone lets their guard down and allows their opponent to sneak in a staggering punch to the grill. Contemporary boxing may not be a blood sport but I think it's still very much tied into the same vicarious thrill that watching violence can give.
That all said, as others have pointed out - the consequences for boxers is not the same as dogs and therefore, I can appreciate how folks see a comparison b/t the two as strained.
That all said, as others have pointed out - the consequences for boxers is not the same as dogs and therefore, I can appreciate how folks see a comparison b/t the two as utterly ridiculous[/b] .
That all said, as others have pointed out - the consequences for boxers is not the same as dogs and therefore, I can appreciate how folks see a comparison b/t the two as utterly ridiculous[/b] .
That all said, as others have pointed out - the consequences for boxers is not the same as dogs and therefore, I can appreciate how folks see a comparison b/t the two as utterly ridiculous[/b] .
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
Nobody involved in organized dogfighting has any illusions about it being legal. Has anybody actually tried to offer this as a defense?
I beg to differ. I would be willing to wager that many people in the hood don't see it as much more illegal than a street corner crap game (which wouldn't bring much of a charge at all). Believe it or not I have heard quite a number people bring this up (including my ex-college football playing brother-in law, current ATL resident and self-described former 9th ward knucklehead). His point being that Michael is just stupid not criminal. Thus, deserving some leniency in this matter. Anyway, he's stuck with my hometown boy Harrington who's going to the pro-bowl this year. You heard it first right fucking here strutters.
Please give me a break. Was Vick investigated and prosecuted more vigorously than normal? Yes, by several orders of magnitude, and that has something to do with his celebrity and also, I think, something to do with race. But organized dogfighting is a very involved subculture, of which evasion of the authorities is an element, and absolutely nobody involved in it thinks it's legal. People "in the hood" are not stupid or ignorant.
The most you can credibly say is that he probably didn't fully appreciate the potential severity of the legal consequences. People who who have absolutely no familiarity with the subculture may be under the impression that it's legal, but nobody with even a passing interest in it could think that.
You are in essence agreeing with my above statement the point of which was that many people in the hood were surprised at the seriousness of the consequences of dogfighting. While no one I know thought it was legit, many weren't aware of the kinds of laws against it.
Comments
According to ESPN, the plea deal is not a reduction in charges (though it appears that no further charges will be pursued which is a huge plus for MV). MV will certainly do time (probably 12-18months).
As for his career moving forward, I think it is going to depend on what he cops to. Remember he told the commissioner that he had nothing to do with any of this business. Lying to the commissioner is a clear violation of NFL player conduct policies. Second, this is an interstate gambling charge. Gambling is pretty much the neutron bomb of sports peccadillo's. Gambling plus cruelty to animals plus lying to the big chief could make this a fairly tough suspension on Vick. On the other hand, he was not betting on football and doing federal time will make it easier for them to say that Vick has been punished adequately. Let's not forget these guys are business men first and if they can get MV back in the league, they probably will try. My guess is a two year suspension before reinstatement.
For those that wonder if MV knew that what he was doing was illegal. Just think about the kind of operation that the indictment describes; traveling across state lines to fight dogs in big money matches with other serious dog fighters. This ain't no neighborhood type affair, this was serious stuff. Given the company that he had to be keeping, he had to know this was no even close to legal.
I have to say that MV's team did a poor job of putting up a defense and keeping his boys quiet. They apparently left a lot of physical evidence around. I am not condoning that kind of behavior but I am surprised that his legal help wasn't more aggressive in coming up with a plan to protect him.
Wow.
Your point all along has been for people not to rush to judgment because, although dog fighting is a fringe activity, it springs from a tradition of blood sport which, in some cases, is still apparently condoned by some loony people on the margins of society and that we should try to understand how it happened.
My point has been that it doesn't matter where it came from or whether it's a fringe activity. We have decided as a society that it is wrong and therefore it should be no problem to condemn someone for engaging in dog fighting.
Where is your problem with that?
That shit would be taking it
Such a bad summer all-around.
do you use graemlins in your classroom?
Nobody involved in organized dogfighting has any illusions about it being legal. Has anybody actually tried to offer this as a defense?
(rolls out red carpet)
Where do I sign up?
I'd think you'd be in the camp of those who don't like the idea of academics being saddled with moral ideologies that they would then impart onto the impressionable minds of youth.
I beg to differ. I would be willing to wager that many people in the hood don't see it as much more illegal than a street corner crap game (which wouldn't bring much of a charge at all). Believe it or not I have heard quite a number people bring this up (including my ex-college football playing brother-in law, current ATL resident and self-described former 9th ward knucklehead). His point being that Michael is just stupid not criminal. Thus, deserving some leniency in this matter. Anyway, he's stuck with my hometown boy Harrington who's going to the pro-bowl this year. You heard it first right fucking here strutters.
I'm sure you would.
Academics shouldn't decide anything for anyone that is not an academic.
Please give me a break. Was Vick investigated and prosecuted more vigorously than normal? Yes, by several orders of magnitude, and that has something to do with his celebrity and also, I think, something to do with race. But organized dogfighting is a very involved subculture, of which evasion of the authorities is an element, and absolutely nobody involved in it thinks it's legal. People "in the hood" are not stupid or ignorant.
The most you can credibly say is that he probably didn't fully appreciate the potential severity of the legal consequences. People who who have absolutely no familiarity with the subculture may be under the impression that it's legal, but nobody with even a passing interest in it could think that.
I'll take some blame on that, as I think most of it has to do with Mike Seiver and I not enjoying each other's posts...
There was that Drama Teacher nonsense a while back, a couple other things.
And hell, I love debating stuff on here- I tend to play devil's advocate too much, but it is a decent exercise at times, and a good way to engage with reasonably intelligent people on a variety of topics.
When this topic got to, 'You are so fucking stupid,' though, that was when all reasonable intelligence went out the window, and it got personal.
My post towards you was tongue in cheek - I didn't mean for it to be taken personally...
the whole boxing analogy reminded me of my mom, also an academic, one of many I've known who cannot understand the (sweet) science behind the sport. The difference between a human honing skill and talents in order to inflict specific damage on his opponent while enduring the opponent's attacks, all governed by a set of rules, is only similar to pitbulls scrapping it out to the death on the most basic level.
Also, dog fighting takes place in NY - not sure how common it is relative to the south but it's not strictly a southern thing.
it's okay to slaughter cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but some dogs fighting, he goes to jail. mind you the charges were pretty serious even before it got out that he killed them.
i should mention i think it's disgusting what he did, he is probably a psychopath, but going to jail for dog fighting seems a bit excessive.
he should just be made to watch that peta film i saw on kcop at about 3 in morning one time. that shit wrecked me forever!
Yeah, legal or illegal dog fighting aside. Dude should do some time for this alone.
Shit, they arrest and give jail time for people who leave their dogs in cars when the weather is hot.
Why is this even an issue. Are people even debating that he shouldn't do time?
it's not hyopcrisy at all - the aforementioned slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs is for food. Dogfighting is for sport. A more apt comparison would be to cockfighting - I don't think people fight cows but pigs wouldn't surprise me.
Thank you, Ralph.
I don't think y'all know....dogfighting is more pervasive than you think.
It's huge in gang cultures. All coasts.
On sports radio in Austin just this AM, two cats called in in fifteen minutes on some "Yeah I can go to a dogfight five minutes from here" business. This is somewhat "progressive" Austin, TX.
I am just making a point about dogfighting. Michael Vick broke some laws and he didn't have the organization in place to shield himself. He's gonna do some time and he's gonna face repercussions from his employer.
I heard that the Fed prosecutors are trying to get 12-18 months in jail for him which a couple of talking heads said is a tad bit harsher than you would expect.
People are getting this all twisted though - he didn't just host a couple dog fights at his crib - he was a major figure.
I've said what I've said fairly poorly, but my basic point is this...The media coverage of this, like most off field sporting events, has been fairly close to ridiculous. At work, we have either ESPN or the NFL network rolling all day, and after 2 months of 'THIS IS THE MOST HEINOUS ACT EVER COMMITTED BY AN ATHELETE,' we
started debating seriously just how bad all this is.
In my opinion, in a league with serious off field gun/domestic violence/substance abuse issues, the hew and cry over dog fighting seemed out of place. Granted, the player involved is far more noteworthy than Pacman Jones or Tank Johnson or the Bengals. But, there seemed to be a lack of perspective to these charges and the coverage of them, that wore very thin after week 2 of the VICK WATCH.
Oh man, no worries. It IS *more* prevalent in the south for sure. Just making the point that it goes on other places. NYC, LA...whatever.
This is NOT the most heinous act ever committed by an NFL player or an athlete.
This thread is really turning out to let people work out their issues on dogfighting.
But yeah, everything is so sensationalized anymore. It's getting ridiculous. I just want football talk back. I'm tired of jurisprudence on my sports shows. Slap whatever penalty on him and then the media will be on his nuts in 2 years or whatever when he's trying to come back. PEACE.
Someone called into that DJ Premier Sirius show (the one that was podcasted) to say how, apart from dog fighting, there's also "dog vs. hog" battles.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/27/national/main1245804.shtml
As for the boxing thing (not to beat a dead horse...um, maybe not the best idiom to invoke here but...), I get the sweet science part. I think boxing, from a participant point of view, is incredibly complex and until I trained to spar, never understood why the exercise regiment was so key but it made all the sense in the world once even a two-three minute bout feels like it lasts an hour, especially with some dude trying to put their fist in your face. Personally, I liked the discipline and the reflex honing involved and I didn't even mind the potential for physical pain. But, and this might be a purely philosophical perspective, I didn't like one of the basic rules of boxing: in order to avoid having pain inflicted upon me, my sole focus was to inflict pain on my opponent, ideally quickly and badly enough to remove him as a threat. It's not like I was trying to put someone in the hospital (not like I could anyway) or was risking the same injury to myself...it was merely the idea of committing myself to an impulse that was undeniably violent. And, to me, that spectre of violence is an integral part of boxing unlike, say, modern fencing. When I watch a boxing bout, I'm looking for good defensive skills but I'm also waiting, sometimes eagerly, to see when someone lets their guard down and allows their opponent to sneak in a staggering punch to the grill. Contemporary boxing may not be a blood sport but I think it's still very much tied into the same vicarious thrill that watching violence can give.
That all said, as others have pointed out - the consequences for boxers is not the same as dogs and therefore, I can appreciate how folks see a comparison b/t the two as strained.
Seriously, right? It's like Court TV and ESPN might as well merge.
Shudder to think of Star Jones on ESPN...Though, she still might be better than Stu Scott.
You mean like comparing vick and OJ?
but...but...Faux_Rillz MADE him do that!
You are in essence agreeing with my above statement the point of which was that many people in the hood were surprised at the seriousness of the consequences of dogfighting. While no one I know thought it was legit, many weren't aware of the kinds of laws against it.