Bodie going down was probably the hardest death to take the whole season. But like he said, "you're not going to put me in one of those abandoned houses!" BLOWE BLOWE!
yeah the writers were really successful, at least from my perspective, in creating an (almost) respectable person out of a drug dealer. I never had a soft spot for Stringer, as so many viewers seemed to have had (admittedly most of them probably female). but Bodie's inadvertently issuing a death sentence to his boy Kevin, the raw frustration at the crime scene when he kicks in the patrol car windows, his final conversation with McNulty, and his defiant exit, all combined to make for a pretty tragic death. you really sorta had to agree with McNulty when he said, "you're a soldier, Bodie."
oh, and Bubs' defeat at the hands of the street was truly sad. things were finally looking up for him in a way.
no other show (or Wire Season for that matter) has so successfully portrayed hopelessness; this season brought so many characters so close to redemption: the kids, Bubbles, Colvin (again), only to have it snatched away.
the parallel "reform" arcs from Season 3 were in some senses tragic as well: Colvin's attempts to reform the cops and Stringer's attempts to ratchet down the violence in the drug game. but Stringer was, ultimately, a drug dealer. and Colvin lives to fight another day in Season 4.
in Season 4 on the other hand the victims were not really horrible people, nor seasoned vets, but kids. you really get invested in Randy's future over the course of the season, only to see him runied basically.
like Bubs said it was crazy for him to try to pretend he was anything other than a dopefiend. in Season 4 the viewer feels crazy for ever thinking the school or political systems can ever be changed either. pretty hopeless.
I guess the shows producers throw you a bone with Colvin and his wife adopting Namond; all is not lost. still one-out-of-four kids is pretty bleak.
I guess the shows producers throw you a bone with Colvin and his wife adopting Namond; all is not lost. still one-out-of-four kids is pretty bleak.
on the other hand the one kid that escapes (Namond) is surely the one of the four I had the least sympathy for to begin with. so, yeah....fucking sad.
Yeah - I never liked Namond either, except for who his father is. I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
Why?
Aside from the traditional "have you ever known a kid who descended into 'the game'" questions, is there some criticism of the way the show portrayed it?
I felt Michael's issues were by far the most complex and gripping. As he emerged as the leader of his crew I found myself feeling a little more confident that some of them might live to tell the tale.
Reading this thread has me so fucking excited for a new season to come out...man, that clip of Omar testifying is facemelt. "One day at a time, I suppose..."
My only very small complaint about Season Four is the lack of sexy scenes, cause The Wire even does those most excellently - with heat and humour and showing the right amount of bits of both men and women.
That's intersting. Those scenes usually catch me pleasantly off guard, but it's actually really nice to watch a show that doesn't rely on flashes of flesh to keep people tuned in. I could do with another Kima and GF joint and I'll take another Rhonda Pearlman while they're at it!
LOL - I am telling you - the scenes with McNulty and the prostitutes and the waitress and the very adult house party where Cutty gets whisked away were just so good! I agree, the success of the sex is why everything else in the Wire works so well - nothing too heavy-handed and no overkill.
It did surprise me that virtually every character seemed to have to have their sex scene. But in each case, it was integral to their characters developement, and never came across as gratuitous (even Bunk on the toilet, or was it in the bath?). Every other part of their lives gets depicted, why not the sex.
I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
Why?
Aside from the traditional "have you ever known a kid who descended into 'the game'" questions, is there some criticism of the way the show portrayed it?
I felt Michael's issues were by far the most complex and gripping. As he emerged as the leader of his crew I found myself feeling a little more confident that some of them might live to tell the tale.
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
I also thought Mike's performance was not 100% convincing but it seemed like a deliberate attempt on the writers' part to keep him enigmatic. You just know looking at Mike and watching him in action that there's a lot more going on below the surface, and we've seen glimpses of his potential and his inner demons. Season 4 set things up for some really mind blowing possibilities for Mike in Season 5 -- like taking out Marlo and running his crew -- now that would be something to watch.
My only very small complaint about Season Four is the lack of sexy scenes, cause The Wire even does those most excellently - with heat and humour and showing the right amount of bits of both men and women.
That's intersting. Those scenes usually catch me pleasantly off guard, but it's actually really nice to watch a show that doesn't rely on flashes of flesh to keep people tuned in. I could do with another Kima and GF joint and I'll take another Rhonda Pearlman while they're at it!
LOL - I am telling you - the scenes with McNulty and the prostitutes and the waitress and the very adult house party where Cutty gets whisked away were just so good! I agree, the success of the sex is why everything else in the Wire works so well - nothing too heavy-handed and no overkill.
It did surprise me that virtually every character seemed to have to have their sex scene. But in each case, it was integral to their characters developement, and never came across as gratuitous (even Bunk on the toilet, or was it in the bath?). Every other part of their lives gets depicted, why not the sex.
That Bunk scene is one of THE funniest scenes I have ever seen! "Do you smell pussy?"
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
I also thought Mike's performance was not 100% convincing but it seemed like a deliberate attempt on the writers' part to keep him enigmatic. You just know looking at Mike and watching him in action that there's a lot more going on below the surface, and we've seen glimpses of his potential and his inner demons. Season 4 set things up for some really mind blowing possibilities for Mike in Season 5 -- like taking out Marlo and running his crew -- now that would be something to watch.
Yeah - it's not like I disliked Mike's character or thought it was some bullshit. I just really thought his performance was the least interesting of the four boys.
Though who thought Dukie was goign to figure more prominently in the season based on the first few epps? I would gladly have traded in less Namond for more Dukie.
dollar_binI heartily endorse this product and/or event 2,326 Posts
no other show (or Wire Season for that matter) has so successfully portrayed hopelessness; this season brought so many characters so close to redemption: the kids, Bubbles, Colvin (again), only to have it snatched away.
the parallel "reform" arcs from Season 3 were in some senses tragic as well: Colvin's attempts to reform the cops and Stringer's attempts to ratchet down the violence in the drug game. but Stringer was, ultimately, a drug dealer. and Colvin lives to fight another day in Season 4.
I've been thinking about this lately, do the stories of McNulty and Dennis 'Cutty' Wise represent characters who have reformed to a positive outcome? Are these presented as small victories to counteract the crushing pall of defeat that hangs over the other characters? I don't really know what David Simon's intent is with these, perhaps there will be some insight on Season 4 commentaries, or in Season 3 commentaries, which I haven't listened to yet.
Speaking of Cutty, has anyone read the novel The Wolf Trap by the real Dennis Wise? I wasn't aware that the name refered to a real person until I read Simon's Homicide, in which he's briefly mentioned as a big time assasin in the 70s. Anyway, the novel looks pulp-tacular, to quote the Amazon review:
This is not your typical drug dealer meets HO novel
I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
Why?
Aside from the traditional "have you ever known a kid who descended into 'the game'" questions, is there some criticism of the way the show portrayed it?
I felt Michael's issues were by far the most complex and gripping. As he emerged as the leader of his crew I found myself feeling a little more confident that some of them might live to tell the tale.
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
I don't know if I agree with that. The kid is 13, and a ball of fucked up emotions. You can see him lose it when he smacks up Namond, when he yells about Prezbo and Cutty ("everyone just wants to be too fucking friendly!") and as Dookie watches him gettin' his. But for the most part he is moody and into his own thoughts. I felt his performance was amazing - it's hard to pull off "brooding" without giving us "boring".
You know what wouldn't be believable, is if he turned into some outrageous corner combination of Bodie and Kenard.
The basic point his character is trying to illustrate is how the neighborhood and 'the game' take the fun and the overall emotion *out* of growing up. By the end of the season he can barely afford - or even summon the effort - to show much emotion.
Though who thought Dukie was goign to figure more prominently in the season based on the first few epps? I would gladly have traded in less Namond for more Dukie.
Yeah Dukie, both the character and the actor who played him so well, what a gut wrenching story. I sincerely hope he does well in S5, but this is The Wire after all, any tragic twist is par for the course. I just hope they leave Dukie alone and give him (possibly Randy too) some kind of positive future.
I don't disagree with your read but at the end of the season, I think that "brooding" vs "boring" equation ended up tipping to the latter for me. Like I said, it's not like I disliked his character but I just found him uncompelling though that scene where he's play-shooting with Chris and Snoop in the factory was pretty sick.
I guess I am interested to see where they take him in Season 5. Actually, I'm interested to see how many of the S4 kids will make it back into S5.
I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
Why?
Aside from the traditional "have you ever known a kid who descended into 'the game'" questions, is there some criticism of the way the show portrayed it?
I felt Michael's issues were by far the most complex and gripping. As he emerged as the leader of his crew I found myself feeling a little more confident that some of them might live to tell the tale.
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
I don't know if I agree with that. The kid is 13, and a ball of fucked up emotions. You can see him lose it when he smacks up Namond, when he yells about Prezbo and Cutty ("everyone just wants to be too fucking friendly!") and as Dookie watches him gettin' his. But for the most part he is moody and into his own thoughts. I felt his performance was amazing - it's hard to pull off "brooding" without giving us "boring".
You know what wouldn't be believable, is if he turned into some outrageous corner combination of Bodie and Kenard.
The basic point his character is trying to illustrate is how the neighborhood and 'the game' take the fun and the overall emotion *out* of growing up. By the end of the season he can barely afford - or even summon the effort - to show much emotion.
I've been thinking about this lately, do the stories of McNulty and Dennis 'Cutty' Wise represent characters who have reformed to a positive outcome? Are these presented as small victories to counteract the crushing pall of defeat that hangs over the other characters?
yeah I'd say to a certain extent this is true.
still, the victories are incomplete. Cutty was unable to save Mikey, who seemed to hold the most promise (at least from Cutty's perspective), nor Spyder.
and while McNulty seems to have found some peace (good woman and no drinking), the scene where his ex comes to pick up the boys while he is having dinner with Bunk and his kids is a reminder that McNulty's redemption is not that tidy (he leaves behind an ex who is incomplete without him). not to mention he rejoins the major crimes unit at the end of S4, and the question remains whether it will take him under again or not.
The basic point his character is trying to illustrate is how the neighborhood and 'the game' take the fun and the overall emotion *out* of growing up. By the end of the season he can barely afford - or even summon the effort - to show much emotion.
I saw it all as being intentional, and well-done.
I agree. But also, i felt it was another example of the wire going against the obvious. If you were going to write a character, a young black male, who's becoming a street thug, it would be so easy to pick on certain characteristics, for the 'type' of people who get into the life, you'd probalby go for someone like Namond. Not the shy, quite, interlectual Michael.
Growing up, kids like Namond were never the serious thugs. Dudes like that played some ball and talked to the girls. I think their choice to make the troubled, brooding cat the gangster as opposed to the pretty, rebellious dude was, as McNulty might say, "Spot On."
I never much cared for Brother Muzone's character, but I'll be damned if Omar isn't one of the illest characters ever brought to (big or small) screen.
Comments
yeah the writers were really successful, at least from my perspective, in creating an (almost) respectable person out of a drug dealer. I never had a soft spot for Stringer, as so many viewers seemed to have had (admittedly most of them probably female). but Bodie's inadvertently issuing a death sentence to his boy Kevin, the raw frustration at the crime scene when he kicks in the patrol car windows, his final conversation with McNulty, and his defiant exit, all combined to make for a pretty tragic death. you really sorta had to agree with McNulty when he said, "you're a soldier, Bodie."
oh, and Bubs' defeat at the hands of the street was truly sad. things were finally looking up for him in a way.
no other show (or Wire Season for that matter) has so successfully portrayed hopelessness; this season brought so many characters so close to redemption: the kids, Bubbles, Colvin (again), only to have it snatched away.
the parallel "reform" arcs from Season 3 were in some senses tragic as well: Colvin's attempts to reform the cops and Stringer's attempts to ratchet down the violence in the drug game. but Stringer was, ultimately, a drug dealer. and Colvin lives to fight another day in Season 4.
in Season 4 on the other hand the victims were not really horrible people, nor seasoned vets, but kids. you really get invested in Randy's future over the course of the season, only to see him runied basically.
like Bubs said it was crazy for him to try to pretend he was anything other than a dopefiend. in Season 4 the viewer feels crazy for ever thinking the school or political systems can ever be changed either. pretty hopeless.
I guess the shows producers throw you a bone with Colvin and his wife adopting Namond; all is not lost. still one-out-of-four kids is pretty bleak.
on the other hand the one kid that escapes (Namond) is surely the one of the four I had the least sympathy for to begin with. so, yeah....fucking sad.
Yeah - I never liked Namond either, except for who his father is. I also thought Mikey's descent into evil was kind of weak...I never really "bought it" and I personally don't want to see him back in Season 5 though I assume he probably will have to be.
Why?
Aside from the traditional "have you ever known a kid who descended into 'the game'" questions, is there some criticism of the way the show portrayed it?
I felt Michael's issues were by far the most complex and gripping. As he emerged as the leader of his crew I found myself feeling a little more confident that some of them might live to tell the tale.
It did surprise me that virtually every character seemed to have to have their sex scene. But in each case, it was integral to their characters developement, and never came across as gratuitous (even Bunk on the toilet, or was it in the bath?). Every other part of their lives gets depicted, why not the sex.
JP - it's not that I found the narrative weak or unbelievable...I didn't think Mike "sold it" in terms of the performance. That might have been a limitation in the acting or how the character was sketched out but his impassivity made it hard for me to really get a sense of the complexity you speak of.
That's what the Wire does, most of it's depressing, but there are small glimmers of hope.
I took that closing scene as life goes on, and that not all of Baltimore is bad.
what clip is this?
I also thought Mike's performance was not 100% convincing but it seemed like a deliberate attempt on the writers' part to keep him enigmatic. You just know looking at Mike and watching him in action that there's a lot more going on below the surface, and we've seen glimpses of his potential and his inner demons. Season 4 set things up for some really mind blowing possibilities for Mike in Season 5 -- like taking out Marlo and running his crew -- now that would be something to watch.
That Bunk scene is one of THE funniest scenes I have ever seen! "Do you smell pussy?"
CLASSIC MATERIAL.
As was the "fuckity fuck fuck" crime investigation from S1.
Yeah - it's not like I disliked Mike's character or thought it was some bullshit. I just really thought his performance was the least interesting of the four boys.
Though who thought Dukie was goign to figure more prominently in the season based on the first few epps? I would gladly have traded in less Namond for more Dukie.
I've been thinking about this lately, do the stories of McNulty and Dennis 'Cutty' Wise represent characters who have reformed to a positive outcome? Are these presented as small victories to counteract the crushing pall of defeat that hangs over the other characters? I don't really know what David Simon's intent is with these, perhaps there will be some insight on Season 4 commentaries, or in Season 3 commentaries, which I haven't listened to yet.
Speaking of Cutty, has anyone read the novel The Wolf Trap by the real Dennis Wise? I wasn't aware that the name refered to a real person until I read Simon's Homicide, in which he's briefly mentioned as a big time assasin in the 70s. Anyway, the novel looks pulp-tacular, to quote the Amazon review:
The publishers web site
I don't know if I agree with that. The kid is 13, and a ball of fucked up emotions. You can see him lose it when he smacks up Namond, when he yells about Prezbo and Cutty ("everyone just wants to be too fucking friendly!") and as Dookie watches him gettin' his. But for the most part he is moody and into his own thoughts. I felt his performance was amazing - it's hard to pull off "brooding" without giving us "boring".
You know what wouldn't be believable, is if he turned into some outrageous corner combination of Bodie and Kenard.
The basic point his character is trying to illustrate is how the neighborhood and 'the game' take the fun and the overall emotion *out* of growing up. By the end of the season he can barely afford - or even summon the effort - to show much emotion.
I saw it all as being intentional, and well-done.
Oh, and for my Uk wire peoples, Amazon are selling the box sets off real cheap at the moment.
YES!
Yeah Dukie, both the character and the actor who played him so well, what a gut wrenching story. I sincerely hope he does well in S5, but this is The Wire after all, any tragic twist is par for the course. I just hope they leave Dukie alone and give him (possibly Randy too) some kind of positive future.
this is an interesting book. Wire fans should definitely peep it.
I guess I am interested to see where they take him in Season 5. Actually, I'm interested to see how many of the S4 kids will make it back into S5.
yeah I'd say to a certain extent this is true.
still, the victories are incomplete. Cutty was unable to save Mikey, who seemed to hold the most promise (at least from Cutty's perspective), nor Spyder.
and while McNulty seems to have found some peace (good woman and no drinking), the scene where his ex comes to pick up the boys while he is having dinner with Bunk and his kids is a reminder that McNulty's redemption is not that tidy (he leaves behind an ex who is incomplete without him). not to mention he rejoins the major crimes unit at the end of S4, and the question remains whether it will take him under again or not.
this scene was a monster.
Dookie is his right hand man
Namond escapes the madness.
The big question is Randy. Will Michael look out for his boy? Will his rep as a snitch be too much to defend?
I agree. But also, i felt it was another example of the wire going against the obvious. If you were going to write a character, a young black male, who's becoming a street thug, it would be so easy to pick on certain characteristics, for the 'type' of people who get into the life, you'd probalby go for someone like Namond. Not the shy, quite, interlectual Michael.
Growing up, kids like Namond were never the serious thugs. Dudes like that played some ball and talked to the girls. I think their choice to make the troubled, brooding cat the gangster as opposed to the pretty, rebellious dude was, as McNulty might say, "Spot On."
I never much cared for Brother Muzone's character, but I'll be damned if Omar isn't one of the illest characters ever brought to (big or small) screen.
Prejudice against the Nation Of Islam revealed
lol prejudice by whom, the Wire writers? I'm not the one that chose to portray the only NOI member in the series as a cold-blooded assasin.