wait I thought suicide terrorists were always like poor, desperate people with no upward mobility and no chances for a better future...
I mean, that's what the media and my college profs always fed told me.
no they just have to be muslim.
Rootless: I was speaking on science versus blind faith... I assumed that someone who has studied science and is a doctor was less succeptable to the pathetically ridiclous notion that suicide and murder in the name of faith makes sense.
but i guess nothing makes sense in this situation.
Oh, and Sabadabada:
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
wait I thought suicide terrorists were always like poor, desperate people with no upward mobility and no chances for a better future...
I mean, that's what the media and my college profs always fed told me.
Well, as far as discussion over here is concerned, this has been the real eye-opener about this particular episode. It's generally believed (and not completely without justification) that fundamentalist/extremist groups after a foothold in the UK tend to aim their recruitment at alienated, disenfranchised young Muslim males. Whilst it should be pointed out that none of the people thus far arrested in connection with these incidents appear to be UK nationals/residents, it does indicate that there isn't the complete absence of headbangers amongst the educated, professional classes as might have been previously assumed.
Terrorism occurs along political lines as well as relgious ones. Hence you will find people of all social economic backgrounds involved. Osma Bin Laden himself is not a fanatic he is an educated man who came from a rich family. To think that terror is the weapon of lower class people and fanatics oversimplifies the issues at hand. These events used by some as a justification of the iraq war are instead the results of britains decision to invade. However whatever the motivations of those involved their actions cannot be condoned.
These events used by some as a justification of the iraq war are instead the results of britains decision to invade.
I don't think either of these views really hold any water, muslim extremists were carrying out terror attacks on western targets long before the UK or US entered Iraq or Afghanistan.
We are dealing with a set of people who oppose pretty much all that we in the west accept as our society, democracy/equal rights/religous & sexual freedom.
If we could wave a magic wand and leave Iraq and Afghanistan do you really think these events would stop ? Remember they oppose any western influence in the middle east...
Terrorists need an ideology which embodies a moral imperative to act as they do - moral outrage rather than intellectual discourse is the recruiting tool of the terrorist organisation. Educated or not, we all have a sense of right or wrong (however warped) and so the doctors who've been arrested aren't that different from the shoebomber Richard Reid. Better educated but equally convinced that they are somehow redressing a moral wrong.
It's more interesting that the London/Glasgow suspects were doctors who worked in environments where they could have caused horrendous damage - why did they attempt those amateurish car bombs instead?
95% of terrorist suspects are released without charge...they just dont make the front pages then. The media obsession with this non event is truly obscene. Check out the nationalistic bullshit splattered on the front of 1 of britains biggest newspapers. http://www.thesun.co.uk/
Flag waving wont make the problem go away. Ending the imperialistic occupation of foreign lands perhaps might....but theres too much money to be made there.
O peration I raqi L iberation
People need to stop eatin up the fear biscuits served up by the media on a daily basis.
It's more interesting that the London/Glasgow suspects were doctors who worked in environments where they could have caused horrendous damage - why did they attempt those amateurish car bombs instead?
Harold Shipman already beat them to it.
And the spectacle is required for maximum publicity. Don't more people die in drunk driving accidents every year than in 9/11? Yet no-one has invaded the breweries. No-one notices these deaths. Like the clicking fingers of the african deaths, day-in, day-out.
These current clowns killed ZERO (well, apart from fried clown who has little chance of survival) and look at the publicity they have got.
To be honest though, i wouldn't be at all suprised, there is regular tension between white and asian gangs in Glasgow, loads of stabbings and beatings and battles over turf etc... Even things as frivolous as a white girl saying a taxi driver mistreated her led to a big gang going and beating up drivers and destroying the taxi rank...
Are you from Glasgow? Sorry man but your wwwwaaaaaayyyyy off track on this one.
The media obsession with this non event is truly obscene.
Not really a non event though was it ???
I find the view that "Oh if we leave the middle east, they will leave us alone" to be short sighted and overly simple. What do you think they will pick up on next ? The Wests support of Israel ??? Our support of the Saudi government ???
It's more interesting that the London/Glasgow suspects were doctors who worked in environments where they could have caused horrendous damage - why did they attempt those amateurish car bombs instead?
Harold Shipman already beat them to it.
And the spectacle is required for maximum publicity. Don't more people die in drunk driving accidents every year than in 9/11? Yet no-one has invaded the breweries. No-one notices these deaths. Like the clicking fingers of the african deaths, day-in, day-out.
These current clowns killed ZERO (well, apart from fried clown who has little chance of survival) and look at the publicity they have got.
Thank god they didn't attack hospitals but I think it would have made just as much of a splash and, as insiders, it would have been easier for them to orchestrate.
These events used by some as a justification of the iraq war are instead the results of britains decision to invade.
I don't think either of these views really hold any water, muslim extremists were carrying out terror attacks on western targets long before the UK or US entered Iraq or Afghanistan.
We are dealing with a set of people who oppose pretty much all that we in the west accept as our society, democracy/equal rights/religous & sexual freedom.
If we could wave a magic wand and leave Iraq and Afghanistan do you really think these events would stop ? Remember they oppose any western influence in the middle east...
Im sorry but i find your views too simplistic. Its easy to view all terrorists as people who blindly hate the west and all that it stands for ie democracy and freedom but that is not the case at all. To many people of the arab world the west symbolises the opposite of these things. This blind belief in an irrational hatred also allows us to gloss over the history of the region and the key question that western media and governments seem so unable to ask. Which is what motivates people to carry out these kinds of acts. It only takes a brief look at history to see that that reasons are vast and complex . Can we say there would be no extremists if iraq had not be invaded? possibly. Or can we say that the likely hood of these events has increased since the invasion? With the past events in london and glasgow in mind it seems most likely.
Its easy to view all terrorists as people who blindly hate the west and all that it stands for ie democracy and freedom but that is not the case at all. To many people of the arab world the west symbolises the opposite of these things.
Please point me the direction of these arab states that endorse democracy and freedom ??? Not to over simplify but I don't see many gay marriges happening in the middle east !!!
Thats why i wrote possibly. No one is debating that 911 didn't happen. But i am merely suggesting that in order to stop these kind of things from happening you need to look into what caused them. In the case of 911 the blame lies at the feet of Al Qaeda. An organisiation which was funded and set up by the CIA and Egypt amongst others to fight the Soviets and drive them from Afghanistan. After the Soviet war and when US forces had military bases in Saudi Arabia, AlQaeda turned there attention to the US and viewed them as a foreign aggressor just as they had viewed the Soviets. Now its a lot more complex than this but there is a pattern of events and counter events. To suggest otherwise is misleading. The truck bomb at the world trade center was set up in a textbook CIA fashion. Now you could say that if the US hadn't trained and funded these groups then that might have never happened.
All I know is if someone killed my loved ones over some hocus pocus like Allah, I'd be pissed as hell. Money I can understand killing for, heck, oil too. People need money & they can't get enough. But God? That's like getting shot over the easter bunny.
Thats why i wrote possibly. No one is debating that 911 didn't happen. But i am merely suggesting that in order to stop these kind of things from happening you need to look into what caused them. In the case of 911 the blame lies at the feet of Al Qaeda. An organisiation which was funded and set up by the CIA and Egypt amongst others to fight the Soviets and drive them from Afghanistan. After the Soviet war and when US forces had military bases in Saudi Arabia, AlQaeda turned there attention to the US and viewed them as a foreign aggressor just as they had viewed the Soviets. Now its a lot more complex than this but there is a pattern of events and counter events. To suggest otherwise is misleading. The truck bomb at the world trade center was set up in a textbook CIA fashion. Now you could say that if the US hadn't trained and funded these groups then that might have never happened.
Or if the Russians had not invaded then these groups would never have existed, so therefore it's the fault of the old USSR.
I'm afraid that is a weak argument,bearig in mind that we are in Saudi with the full endorsemt of their government do you suggest we pull out of the middle east and isolate ourselves from the situation by not trading with them and having no political interaction with these states incase we upset the fundamentalists ? Would this ensure our safety in your view ???
Its easy to view all terrorists as people who blindly hate the west and all that it stands for ie democracy and freedom but that is not the case at all. To many people of the arab world the west symbolises the opposite of these things.
Please point me the direction of these arab states that endorse democracy and freedom ??? Not to over simplify but I don't see many gay marriges happening in the middle east !!!
Democracy is not a guaranteed panacea and not the only model of successful government. There are democratically elected leaders and governments who fail to serve their people and apparently despotic states where life is good. Which is worse - a state with a benign but absolute ruler or a country with an elected leader who pursues their own agenda at the expense of their people?
Its easy to view all terrorists as people who blindly hate the west and all that it stands for ie democracy and freedom but that is not the case at all. To many people of the arab world the west symbolises the opposite of these things.
Please point me the direction of these arab states that endorse democracy and freedom ??? Not to over simplify but I don't see many gay marriges happening in the middle east !!!
Democracy is not a guaranteed panacea and not the only model of successful government. There are democratically elected leaders and governments who fail to serve their people and apparently despotic states where life is good. Which is worse - a state with a benign but absolute ruler or a country with an elected leader who pursues their own agenda at the expense of their people?
Would you care to name these despotic countries where life is so good ? North Korea maybe or how about Cambodia under Pol Pot, Uganga under Amin or maybe somwhere closer to home, Argentina when they where under the military junta ???
I'm not saying democracy cures everything however, I would rather take Bush or Blair/Brown and live in a country which has an elected government.
These events used by some as a justification of the iraq war are instead the results of britains decision to invade.
I don't think either of these views really hold any water, muslim extremists were carrying out terror attacks on western targets long before the UK or US entered Iraq or Afghanistan.
We are dealing with a set of people who oppose pretty much all that we in the west accept as our society, democracy/equal rights/religous & sexual freedom.
If we could wave a magic wand and leave Iraq and Afghanistan do you really think these events would stop ? Remember they oppose any western influence in the middle east...
Agreed.
As someone who use to live and visit quite often London (throughout the 90's) and would frequent Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park. I can say without a doubt, that there has been a pretty large extremist section for a long time now.
They have been preaching England's downfall for years. Sure they use Iraq as a reason to bomb. But I believe at the heart of their extremism, is the idea that England is to blame for the setting up of a State of Israel.
I'm afraid that is a weak argument,bearig in mind that we are in Saudi with the full endorsemt of their government do you suggest we pull out of the middle east and isolate ourselves from the situation by not trading with them and having no political interaction with these states incase we upset the fundamentalists ? Would this ensure our safety in your view ???
These groups would not have existed in the present state that they do today had the US and its allies not given them the substantial support that they did. Saudi Arabia is ruled by a rich royal family which has substanial business intrests in dealing witht the US. The vast majority of saudis are poor and have no say in their govt or what happens to their country. Osma comes from that same family. Nine of the hijackers of 911 were Saudis. Not everyone agrees witht the actions of their governments. Likewise not all US citizens agree with the Iraq war. Your last comment is childish to say the least. No one is saying that the US should pull out of the region and suspend trade and political ties. Just examine the issues at hand. May i offer an example. The Hamas and Fatah power struggle in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For years the US has urged for elections in the west bank. When the people chose Hamas as there democratically elected goverment. The US and its allies broke off diplomatic ties and imposed sanctions on the Palestinian people. They also publicly backed the ousting of the Hamas prime minister and sided with Fatah even though they had broken their own laws and constitution. Now to the people of the gaza strip and the west bank does this sound like the actions of a country that supports democracy or does not. You can debate about the virtues of a hamas goverment( Thats a whole other thread) but they were the democratically elected government of an election which was viewed by foreign advisors as fair and unbiased. Can you see how some people might view the US as other than some bastion of freedom and goodwill?
The Hamas and Fatah power struggle in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For years the US has urged for elections in the west bank. When the people chose Hamas as there democratically elected goverment. The US and its allies broke off diplomatic ties and imposed sanctions on the Palestinian people.
Was this not because Hamas would not give up their terrorist activities though...
No one is saying that the US should pull out of the region and suspend trade and political ties. Just examine the issues at hand.
This is however what these groups want, they want to remove any western "influence" that infringes on their land (in their eyes).
The western infulence that you speak of is percieved by some to be the onslaught of foreign imperialism and capitalism by others( But thats another thread as well). Also is it so bad that people would want the right to run their own lands the way that they see fit. A lot of western countries arn't exactly open to the ideas of and cultures of the middle east.
The Hamas and Fatah power struggle in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For years the US has urged for elections in the west bank. When the people chose Hamas as there democratically elected goverment. The US and its allies broke off diplomatic ties and imposed sanctions on the Palestinian people.
Was this not because Hamas would not give up their terrorist activities though...
Terrorism is a very subjective word. What some view as acts of terrorism are viewed differently by others who commit these acts. Hamas believes that they are freedom fighters fighting for their land and the rights of their people.Thats certainly what a large portion of the palestinian people believe. However i doubt most Israeli people feel that way. I only want to say that the US is the only country in the world that has been convicted by the UN for breaking international law and engaging in terrorist activities for its part in Nicaragua's brutal and bloody war.
My pizza place in Manchester used to be staffed by two Iraqis. They liked it in the UK, but they didn't want to see their homeland's age-old culture smothered in Pepsi adverts, Starbucks, Clown/King/Colonel diet, and their kids wanting to grow up to be Britney Spears or Fiddy/Pimp/Crackdealer - the careers all the kids now expect.
I can see their point. Most UK town centres, on a weekend night, feature many folk that make you ashamed to be human.
A lot of western countries arn't exactly open to the ideas of and cultures of the middle east.
I don't really think that applies to the UK, People are free to follow their religion and beliefs as they wish, as long as they do not break the law.
I don't see these same freedoms being applied in the middle east.
Yes thats true. Although the motives for the attacks seem to have been britains invasion of iraq. When associates of one of the doctors were interviewed on the news they told how he had expressed opposition to the war in iraq, Vocally supported the the militants and revelled in US and UK troop losses.
Comments
And back to reality:
Rootless: I was speaking on science versus blind faith... I assumed that someone who has studied science and is a doctor was less succeptable to the pathetically ridiclous notion that suicide and murder in the name of faith makes sense.
but i guess nothing makes sense in this situation.
Oh, and Sabadabada:
Well, as far as discussion over here is concerned, this has been the real eye-opener about this particular episode. It's generally believed (and not completely without justification) that fundamentalist/extremist groups after a foothold in the UK tend to aim their recruitment at alienated, disenfranchised young Muslim males. Whilst it should be pointed out that none of the people thus far arrested in connection with these incidents appear to be UK nationals/residents, it does indicate that there isn't the complete absence of headbangers amongst the educated, professional classes as might have been previously assumed.
Wow. Im just trying to make sense of this all.
well said both of you.
what a fucked situation.
I don't think either of these views really hold any water, muslim extremists were carrying out terror attacks on western targets long before the UK or US entered Iraq or Afghanistan.
We are dealing with a set of people who oppose pretty much all that we in the west accept as our society, democracy/equal rights/religous & sexual freedom.
If we could wave a magic wand and leave Iraq and Afghanistan do you really think these events would stop ? Remember they oppose any western influence in the middle east...
Terrorists need an ideology which embodies a moral imperative to act as they do - moral outrage rather than intellectual discourse is the recruiting tool of the terrorist organisation. Educated or not, we all have a sense of right or wrong (however warped) and so the doctors who've been arrested aren't that different from the shoebomber Richard Reid. Better educated but equally convinced that they are somehow redressing a moral wrong.
It's more interesting that the London/Glasgow suspects were doctors who worked in environments where they could have caused horrendous damage - why did they attempt those amateurish car bombs instead?
The media obsession with this non event is truly obscene. Check out the nationalistic bullshit splattered on the front of 1 of britains biggest newspapers. http://www.thesun.co.uk/
Flag waving wont make the problem go away. Ending the imperialistic occupation of foreign lands perhaps might....but theres too much money to be made there.
O peration
I raqi
L iberation
People need to stop eatin up the fear biscuits served up by the media on a daily basis.
Harold Shipman already beat them to it.
And the spectacle is required for maximum publicity. Don't more people die in drunk driving accidents every year than in 9/11? Yet no-one has invaded the breweries. No-one notices these deaths. Like the clicking fingers of the african deaths, day-in, day-out.
These current clowns killed ZERO (well, apart from fried clown who has little chance of survival) and look at the publicity they have got.
Are you from Glasgow? Sorry man but your wwwwaaaaaayyyyy off track on this one.
Not really a non event though was it ???
I find the view that "Oh if we leave the middle east, they will leave us alone" to be short sighted and overly simple. What do you think they will pick up on next ? The Wests support of Israel ??? Our support of the Saudi government ???
Thank god they didn't attack hospitals but I think it would have made just as much of a splash and, as insiders, it would have been easier for them to orchestrate.
Im sorry but i find your views too simplistic. Its easy to view all terrorists as people who blindly hate the west and all that it stands for ie democracy and freedom but that is not the case at all. To many people of the arab world the west symbolises the opposite of these things.
This blind belief in an irrational hatred also allows us to gloss over the history of the region and the key question that western media and governments seem so unable to ask. Which is what motivates people to carry out these kinds of acts. It only takes a brief look at history to see that that reasons are vast and complex .
Can we say there would be no extremists if iraq had not be invaded? possibly. Or can we say that the likely hood of these events has increased since the invasion? With the past events in london and glasgow in mind it seems most likely.
Sorry but what about events before this invasion ???
The truck bomb at the World Trade centre for example or 9/11 ???
Please point me the direction of these arab states that endorse democracy and freedom ??? Not to over simplify but I don't see many gay marriges happening in the middle east !!!
Now its a lot more complex than this but there is a pattern of events and counter events. To suggest otherwise is misleading. The truck bomb at the world trade center was set up in a textbook CIA fashion. Now you could say that if the US hadn't trained and funded these groups then that might have never happened.
Or if the Russians had not invaded then these groups would never have existed, so therefore it's the fault of the old USSR.
I'm afraid that is a weak argument,bearig in mind that we are in Saudi with the full endorsemt of their government do you suggest we pull out of the middle east and isolate ourselves from the situation by not trading with them and having no political interaction with these states incase we upset the fundamentalists ? Would this ensure our safety in your view ???
Democracy is not a guaranteed panacea and not the only model of successful government. There are democratically elected leaders and governments who fail to serve their people and apparently despotic states where life is good. Which is worse - a state with a benign but absolute ruler or a country with an elected leader who pursues their own agenda at the expense of their people?
Would you care to name these despotic countries where life is so good ? North Korea maybe or how about Cambodia under Pol Pot, Uganga under Amin or maybe somwhere closer to home, Argentina when they where under the military junta ???
I'm not saying democracy cures everything however, I would rather take Bush or Blair/Brown and live in a country which has an elected government.
Agreed.
As someone who use to live and visit quite often London (throughout the 90's) and would frequent Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park. I can say without a doubt, that there has been a pretty large extremist section for a long time now.
They have been preaching England's downfall for years. Sure they use Iraq as a reason to bomb. But I believe at the heart of their extremism, is the idea that England is to blame for the setting up of a State of Israel.
These groups would not have existed in the present state that they do today had the US and its allies not given them the substantial support that they did.
Saudi Arabia is ruled by a rich royal family which has substanial business intrests in dealing witht the US. The vast majority of saudis are poor and have no say in their govt or what happens to their country. Osma comes from that same family. Nine of the hijackers of 911 were Saudis. Not everyone agrees witht the actions of their governments. Likewise not all US citizens agree with the Iraq war.
Your last comment is childish to say the least. No one is saying that the US should pull out of the region and suspend trade and political ties. Just examine the issues at hand.
May i offer an example. The Hamas and Fatah power struggle in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For years the US has urged for elections in the west bank. When the people chose Hamas as there democratically elected goverment. The US and its allies broke off diplomatic ties and imposed sanctions on the Palestinian people. They also publicly backed the ousting of the Hamas prime minister and sided with Fatah even though they had broken their own laws and constitution. Now to the people of the gaza strip and the west bank does this sound like the actions of a country that supports democracy or does not. You can debate about the virtues of a hamas goverment( Thats a whole other thread) but they were the democratically elected government of an election which was viewed by foreign advisors as fair and unbiased.
Can you see how some people might view the US as other than some bastion of freedom and goodwill?
This is however what these groups want, they want to remove any western "influence" that infringes on their land (in their eyes).
Was this not because Hamas would not give up their terrorist activities though...
The western infulence that you speak of is percieved by some to be the onslaught of foreign imperialism and capitalism by others( But thats another thread as well). Also is it so bad that people would want the right to run their own lands the way that they see fit. A lot of western countries arn't exactly open to the ideas of and cultures of the middle east.
Terrorism is a very subjective word. What some view as acts of terrorism are viewed differently by others who commit these acts. Hamas believes that they are freedom fighters fighting for their land and the rights of their people.Thats certainly what a large portion of the palestinian people believe. However i doubt most Israeli people feel that way.
I only want to say that the US is the only country in the world that has been convicted by the UN for breaking international law and engaging in terrorist activities for its part in Nicaragua's brutal and bloody war.
I can see their point. Most UK town centres, on a weekend night, feature many folk that make you ashamed to be human.
Ham, musroom and pepperoni was the truth.
Although I bet those guys aren't there now. They are probably doctors or propane salesmen...
I don't really think that applies to the UK, People are free to follow their religion and beliefs as they wish, as long as they do not break the law.
I don't see these same freedoms being applied in the middle east.
Yes thats true. Although the motives for the attacks seem to have been britains invasion of iraq. When associates of one of the doctors were interviewed on the news they told how he had expressed opposition to the war in iraq, Vocally supported the the militants and revelled in US and UK troop losses.