emil is preparing a 9 page essay in response to the initial post
Not really. My only response is this:
As hard to read as Serch's post is (he's not very elegant and doesn't make a very convincing argument), I don't think it's at all ridiculous to suggest that white people doing urban black music should put a little bit of effort forth into trying to appeal to an urban black audience.
I think it's funny that people are getting so ass-hurt about this shit like it's threatening their very existence or something.
Calling this shit "racist against white folks" is silliness.
-e
Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I guess I think as a musician or performer you should create something that you believe in and that is true to YOU, without worrying about the racial makeup of the people that come to see you.
The whole thing just kinda sounds like some old school dude that can't figure out that the game has changed over the past 20 years, but if anything to me it seemed racist against black folks. "Black people built this culture, so go find a black person that thinks you're good and NOW you're a rapper"...huh? That'd be like if some black dude came up to me on the street with a violin and played some Tchaikovsky to me, looking for my approval so he could call himself a classical musician. Get out of here with that bullshit.
"Black people built this culture, so go find a black person that thinks you're good and NOW you're a rapper"...huh? That'd be like if some black dude came up to me on the street with a violin and played some Tchaikovsky to me, looking for my approval so he could call himself a classical musician. Get out of here with that bullshit.
No it wouldn't. You're analogy would work if hip-hop was only about rhyming words. If thats how you define it, then i guess your right. however, i think most would agree that rap music encompasses black urban culture, just like reggae encompasses jamaican culture.
Serch was a little sloppy but sage francis needs to get a hobby. Dude was promoting a tv show, not writing an essay on hip hop. i don't care how many undergound people are feeling him, Serch has done more for rap music than any other white rapper.
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
To put Serch's point in more of a practical context...here in Austin the city is essentially split by a highway into the white west side of town and the black and Mexican east side of town. On the west side of town is 6th Street, the city's world famous forum backing its claim as the "Live Music Capital of the World". Nowadays on 6th Street blatant racism against blacks (and Mexicans for that matter) has gone the institutional route. Promoters aren't trying to book the quality venues with a Z-Ro or Trae for they know that such shows would attract what they consider an undesirable audience. Then of course there are selective dress codes enforced at clubs as a means to keep certain people out as well.
Anyway, if you are a rap artist that caters to a primarily white audience...and that runs the gamut from Atmosphere and to even a De La Soul or Rakim...you are more than welcome to do a show on 6th Street. And what this has caused is a little subculture of local opening acts that not only gets added to the line-up of these shows on the regular, but has produced its own set of promoters who have basically been given the keys to certain clubs to do what they will with them. And their products as of yet have been the same white-oriented rap groups with no community following whatsoever being put on instead of local black-oriented groups with massive community followings. And if it wasn't bad enough that what essentially adds up to job discrimination persist like that, the little white dudes who are consistently doing 6th Street shows get big heads and start wielding that oh-so-tired we're-keepin'-it-real-with-all-4-elements-of-hip-hop-culture bullshit as a rationale for why they've got it so good.
No, little dudes, it's racism and pretty much racism alone that has made you a performing rapper. You do shows in large rooms, yet if there isn't a big name headlining, no one shows up. And when you do open for a big name, no one really cares if you are there with them or not. Meanwhile, if you were to go over to the Eastside and try to do a show at Doris Miller or even the Back Room, you just might get your ass kicked.
That's not to say that you shouldn't be in the lab trying to come tighter. It's to say that you need to recognize the circumstances surrounding your little rap career and if you are really down for hip-hop immediately stop gloating about the way that white privilege has pumped your ego and start working on knocking down those racist walls that award you but penalize your not-so-distant black (and Mexican) cohorts.
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
If a white dude goes to a club on the Eastside he may get his ass kicked.
And the club owners on the Westside don't want any ass kicking going on in their clubs.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
If a white dude goes to a club on the Eastside he may get his ass kicked.
And the club owners on the Westside don't want any ass kicking going on in their clubs.
No, a pompous white rapper gased off of previously opening for Rakim on 6th Street, talking about how only he is keepin' it real might get his ass kicked on the Eastside.
And 6th Street club owners certainly see no problem with asskickings going down in their clubs...just as long as it's by bouncers and/or cops.
That's reality.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
And here's further background on the 6th Street situation...
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
there are jamaicans in america
nice try, but i don't think that counts as an authentic cultural experience.
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
there are jamaicans in america
nice try, but i don't think that counts as an authentic cultural experience.
Actually, even Jamaican-American reggae artists have to be accepted in Jamaica before they are truly considered "real".
Can I get a ruling from Magnetic or the one called Duppy Ranks?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
while mc serch's diatribe was far from perfect, i'm feeling his overall point
If that overall point is "white rappers have it easier nowadays, and it's partly down to the work put in by people like me", then I agree with him. I don't know if it's possible nowadays for an artist to make a decent living from rap without ever regularly playing for, or selling records to, a majority black audience, but I'm pretty sure that, ten or fifteen years ago, you'd have had an easier job shitting on the ceiling. Either way, rap is probably the only 20th Century artform where white practitioners remain both in the minority and comparatively invisible. I get the impression that it's this, as much as anything else, that's the cause of Sage's ass-hurtification.
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
there are jamaicans in america
nice try, but i don't think that counts as an authentic cultural experience.
Actually, even Jamaican-American reggae artists have to be accepted in Jamaica before they are truly considered "real".
Can I get a ruling from Magnetic or the one called Duppy Ranks?
Will a simple "'ear dat" suffice?
But yeah, Shaggy and Morgan Heritage, from what I understand, didn't get an automatic pass in JA (although both are popular there now). And Morgan Heritage are forever playing up their Jamaican heritage.
A better example would be a white German artist like Gentleman, who moved to Jamaica as a teenager to soak up/study/immerse himself in the culture before trying to launch a musical career. His popularity in Jamaica seems to be much more important and meaningful to him than whatever popularity he enjoys in Germany. Further, his popularity in Germany is entirely in the context of his being a reggae artist, not his being German. And from what I know (I could be wrong), he doesn't record in German, only in patois.
For what it's worth, I still think that U2 is more popular than him or Shaggy.
But back to Serch's "diatribe": the same thing applies to DJs, 100%. My ability to rock an all-white (or not-at-all-black) crowd with hip-hop records is completely different from being able to rock an all-black crowd. It would be offensive for me to imply otherwise.
To put Serch's point in more of a practical context...here in Austin the city is essentially split by a highway into the white west side of town and the black and Mexican east side of town. On the west side of town is 6th Street, the city's world famous forum backing its claim as the "Live Music Capital of the World". Nowadays on 6th Street blatant racism against blacks (and Mexicans for that matter) has gone the institutional route. Promoters aren't trying to book the quality venues with a Z-Ro or Trae for they know that such shows would attract what they consider an undesirable audience. Then of course there are selective dress codes enforced at clubs as a means to keep certain people out as well.
Anyway, if you are a rap artist that caters to a primarily white audience...and that runs the gamut from Atmosphere and to even a De La Soul or Rakim...you are more than welcome to do a show on 6th Street. And what this has caused is a little subculture of local opening acts that not only gets added to the line-up of these shows on the regular, but has produced its own set of promoters who have basically been given the keys to certain clubs to do what they will with them. And their products as of yet have been the same white-oriented rap groups with no community following whatsoever being put on instead of local black-oriented groups with massive community followings. And if it wasn't bad enough that what essentially adds up to job discrimination persist like that, the little white dudes who are consistently doing 6th Street shows get big heads and start wielding that oh-so-tired we're-keepin'-it-real-with-all-4-elements-of-hip-hop-culture bullshit as a rationale for why they've got it so good.
No, little dudes, it's racism and pretty much racism alone that has made you a performing rapper. You do shows in large rooms, yet if there isn't a big name headlining, no one shows up. And when you do open for a big name, no one really cares if you are there with them or not. Meanwhile, if you were to go over to the Eastside and try to do a show at Doris Miller or even the Back Room, you just might get your ass kicked.
That's not to say that you shouldn't be in the lab trying to come tighter. It's to say that you need to recognize the circumstances surrounding your little rap career and if you are really down for hip-hop immediately stop gloating about the way that white privilege has pumped your ego and start working on knocking down those racist walls that award you but penalize your not-so-distant black (and Mexican) cohorts.
You can't have a good race thread (or rap thread for that matter) without a little bit of the ol' Harvey genius thrown in.
question: Why are De La Soul and Rakim considered rappers that cater to a white audience? Do they walk around in suits that are just too nice? Perhaps they buy records from boutiques as opposed to buying them from guys with good seafood recipes?
Archaic, help me to be more in touch with the realness
PS when you go to the venues where they kick your ass for being white how much punishment do you take before they realize just how down you are?
Adam, Harvey is more than qualified to discuss the state of hip-hop in Austin, Texas. And having lived in Austin for 7 years myself (and--gulp--once having been a part of that scene), I can say that his comments are entirely on point.
Robert's post actually made a lot of sense, and if you had fuck-all to do with any rap scene you'd know that.
sounds like you got sand in your crotch (and assumptions on your mind)If it bothers you so much just ignore it and do your best not to throw a internet hissy fit
like I was saying,
Robert, why is De La Soul and Rakim placed in the same catagory as Atmosphere when it comes to creating rap music? Why are they not considered rap music for black people? Does it have something to do with their subject matter not falling under the trappings of a Trae or a Z-ro? Is there a perception of what a black rapper is supposed to rap about that, if not addressed automaticaly makes it music catering to a white audience?
and what exactly needs to be addressed to make your music cater each race?
so if you're a reggae artist in America, you aren't REALLY until you go tour Jamaica and get one (or however many people artibrarily have to like you for it to "count) Jamaican(s) to say they dig your shit?
there are jamaicans in america
nice try, but i don't think that counts as an authentic cultural experience.
Actually, even Jamaican-American reggae artists have to be accepted in Jamaica before they are truly considered "real".
Can I get a ruling from Magnetic or the one called Duppy Ranks?
Will a simple "'ear dat" suffice?
But yeah, Shaggy and Morgan Heritage, from what I understand, didn't get an automatic pass in JA (although both are popular there now). And Morgan Heritage are forever playing up their Jamaican heritage.
A better example would be a white German artist like Gentleman, who moved to Jamaica as a teenager to soak up/study/immerse himself in the culture before trying to launch a musical career. His popularity in Jamaica seems to be much more important and meaningful to him than whatever popularity he enjoys in Germany. Further, his popularity in Germany is entirely in the context of his being a reggae artist, not his being German. And from what I know (I could be wrong), he doesn't record in German, only in patois.
For what it's worth, I still think that U2 is more popular than him or Shaggy.
But back to Serch's "diatribe": the same thing applies to DJs, 100%. My ability to rock an all-white (or not-at-all-black) crowd with hip-hop records is completely different from being able to rock an all-black crowd. It would be offensive for me to imply otherwise.
Yes Paycheck you and Hoggin are right. One day i'll have to make the pilgrimage to the South Bronx and get Batmon's full blessing before i can consider myself truly a part of Hip Hop.
Robert's post actually made a lot of sense, and if you had fuck-all to do with any rap scene you'd know that.
sounds like you got sand in your crotch (and assumptions on your mind)If it bothers you so much just ignore it and do your best not to throw a internet hissy fit
like I was saying,
Robert, why is De La Soul and Rakim placed in the same catagory as Atmosphere when it comes to creating rap music? Why are they not considered rap music for black people? Does it have something to do with their subject matter not falling under the trappings of a Trae or a Z-ro? Is there a perception of what a black rapper is supposed to rap about that, if not addressed automaticaly makes it music catering to a white audience?
and what exactly needs to be addressed to make your music cater each race?
I mean... fuck man, is reading comprehension that undervalued in Socal? Because what Sheid said to me made perfect sense... acts that play well with white folks get primo location, acts that play better with Black folks don't (NOTE: not acts that 'make music for white people', acts that make whatever music they make, and just happen to draw a primarily non-Black crowd).
I mean... fuck man, is reading comprehension that undervalued in Socal? Because what Sheid said to me made perfect sense... acts that play well with white folks get primo location, acts that play better with Black folks don't (NOTE: not acts that 'make music for white people', acts that make whatever music they make, and just happen to draw a primarily non-Black crowd).
Adam have you been to a De La show recently?
Yes, seen De La soul countless times. Seen plenty of other rap acts too, and the truth of the matter is these audiences be it Too short, westside connection, De La soul, or even black eyed peas seem to have the same ethnic make-up.
Actually I take that back I saw Rakim and BEP at a car show in Irwindale where this one dude pulled out a knife on another guy
I'll let you guys go ahead and assume what race they were
What I'm getting at is Archaic has said many times in the past what black people (and white people) should and should not do. (i.e. wear suits, sell music, etc.)
I'm constantly fascinated by where he gets these rules and want to know more about why feels them to be right.
and as for the RIF part I told you if what I wrote bothers you you shoudl really muster up some will power and just not respond.
I mean... fuck man, is reading comprehension that undervalued in Socal? Because what Sheid said to me made perfect sense... acts that play well with white folks get primo location, acts that play better with Black folks don't (NOTE: not acts that 'make music for white people', acts that make whatever music they make, and just happen to draw a primarily non-Black crowd).
Adam have you been to a De La show recently?
RIF
i don't disagree with that, but that has nothing to do with the idea that you aren't a "real" rapper until a black person thinks you're good.
Comments
Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I guess I think as a musician or performer you should create something that you believe in and that is true to YOU, without worrying about the racial makeup of the people that come to see you.
The whole thing just kinda sounds like some old school dude that can't figure out that the game has changed over the past 20 years, but if anything to me it seemed racist against black folks. "Black people built this culture, so go find a black person that thinks you're good and NOW you're a rapper"...huh? That'd be like if some black dude came up to me on the street with a violin and played some Tchaikovsky to me, looking for my approval so he could call himself a classical musician. Get out of here with that bullshit.
No it wouldn't. You're analogy would work if hip-hop was only about rhyming words. If thats how you define it, then i guess your right. however, i think most would agree that rap music encompasses black urban culture, just like reggae encompasses jamaican culture.
Serch was a little sloppy but sage francis needs to get a hobby. Dude was promoting a tv show, not writing an essay on hip hop. i don't care how many undergound people are feeling him, Serch has done more for rap music than any other white rapper.
Anyway, if you are a rap artist that caters to a primarily white audience...and that runs the gamut from Atmosphere and to even a De La Soul or Rakim...you are more than welcome to do a show on 6th Street. And what this has caused is a little subculture of local opening acts that not only gets added to the line-up of these shows on the regular, but has produced its own set of promoters who have basically been given the keys to certain clubs to do what they will with them. And their products as of yet have been the same white-oriented rap groups with no community following whatsoever being put on instead of local black-oriented groups with massive community followings. And if it wasn't bad enough that what essentially adds up to job discrimination persist like that, the little white dudes who are consistently doing 6th Street shows get big heads and start wielding that oh-so-tired we're-keepin'-it-real-with-all-4-elements-of-hip-hop-culture bullshit as a rationale for why they've got it so good.
No, little dudes, it's racism and pretty much racism alone that has made you a performing rapper. You do shows in large rooms, yet if there isn't a big name headlining, no one shows up. And when you do open for a big name, no one really cares if you are there with them or not. Meanwhile, if you were to go over to the Eastside and try to do a show at Doris Miller or even the Back Room, you just might get your ass kicked.
That's not to say that you shouldn't be in the lab trying to come tighter. It's to say that you need to recognize the circumstances surrounding your little rap career and if you are really down for hip-hop immediately stop gloating about the way that white privilege has pumped your ego and start working on knocking down those racist walls that award you but penalize your not-so-distant black (and Mexican) cohorts.
there are jamaicans in america
And the club owners on the Westside don't want any ass kicking going on in their clubs.
No, a pompous white rapper gased off of previously opening for Rakim on 6th Street, talking about how only he is keepin' it real might get his ass kicked on the Eastside.
And 6th Street club owners certainly see no problem with asskickings going down in their clubs...just as long as it's by bouncers and/or cops.
That's reality.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A280666
nice try, but i don't think that counts as an authentic cultural experience.
Actually, even Jamaican-American reggae artists have to be accepted in Jamaica before they are truly considered "real".
Can I get a ruling from Magnetic or the one called Duppy Ranks?
If that overall point is "white rappers have it easier nowadays, and it's partly down to the work put in by people like me", then I agree with him. I don't know if it's possible nowadays for an artist to make a decent living from rap without ever regularly playing for, or selling records to, a majority black audience, but I'm pretty sure that, ten or fifteen years ago, you'd have had an easier job shitting on the ceiling. Either way, rap is probably the only 20th Century artform where white practitioners remain both in the minority and comparatively invisible. I get the impression that it's this, as much as anything else, that's the cause of Sage's ass-hurtification.
Will a simple "'ear dat" suffice?
But yeah, Shaggy and Morgan Heritage, from what I understand, didn't get an automatic pass in JA (although both are popular there now). And Morgan Heritage are forever playing up their Jamaican heritage.
A better example would be a white German artist like Gentleman, who moved to Jamaica as a teenager to soak up/study/immerse himself in the culture
For what it's worth, I still think that U2 is more popular than him or Shaggy.
But back to Serch's "diatribe": the same thing applies to DJs, 100%. My ability to rock an all-white (or not-at-all-black) crowd with hip-hop records is completely different from being able to rock an all-black crowd. It would be offensive for me to imply otherwise.
You can't have a good race thread (or rap thread for that matter) without a little bit of the ol' Harvey genius thrown in.
question: Why are De La Soul and Rakim considered rappers that cater to a white audience? Do they walk around in suits that are just too nice? Perhaps they buy records from boutiques as opposed to buying them from guys with good seafood recipes?
Archaic, help me to be more in touch with the realness
PS when you go to the venues where they kick your ass for being white how much punishment do you take before they realize just how down you are?
Robert's post actually made a lot of sense, and if you had fuck-all to do with any rap scene you'd know that.
sounds like you got sand in your crotch (and assumptions on your mind)If it bothers you so much just ignore it and do your best not to throw a internet hissy fit
like I was saying,
Robert, why is De La Soul and Rakim placed in the same catagory as Atmosphere when it comes to creating rap music? Why are they not considered rap music for black people? Does it have something to do with their subject matter not falling under the trappings of a Trae or a Z-ro? Is there a perception of what a black rapper is supposed to rap about that, if not addressed automaticaly makes it music catering to a white audience?
and what exactly needs to be addressed to make your music cater each race?
[Cashless]PLEASE STOP[/Cashless]
Yes Paycheck you and Hoggin are right.
One day i'll have to make the pilgrimage to the South Bronx and get Batmon's full blessing before i can consider myself truly a part of Hip Hop.
actually right now it sounds like your trying to control this thread by saying which way the questions asked are supposed to go.
Like I said if it bothers you that much use all the restraint you have in that body of yours and do your best not to respond.
I asked Archaic a question pertaining to race based on something he wrote (in a thread dealing with race no less)
unless you are sheid typing under a false name I really don't see why you should feel so compelled to answer back (twice)
Harvey: the question stands; your opinion is wanted
Welcome back.
Agreed.
Well done, Mr. Canal.
-e
Adam have you been to a De La show recently?
RIF
Yes, seen De La soul countless times. Seen plenty of other rap acts too, and the truth of the matter is these audiences be it Too short, westside connection, De La soul, or even black eyed peas seem to have the same ethnic make-up.
Actually I take that back I saw Rakim and BEP at a car show in Irwindale where this one dude pulled out a knife on another guy
I'll let you guys go ahead and assume what race they were
What I'm getting at is Archaic has said many times in the past what black people (and white people) should and should not do. (i.e. wear suits, sell music, etc.)
I'm constantly fascinated by where he gets these rules and want to know more about why feels them to be right.
and as for the RIF part I told you if what I wrote bothers you you shoudl really muster up some will power and just not respond.
MY MIND'S TELLING ME NOOO.... BUT MY BOOODDDDDDYYYYYY'S TELLING ME YEAAAYYESSSSSS...
If he doesn't agree with what you are saying he should not contradict you?
A novel take on the concept of dialogue.
i don't disagree with that, but that has nothing to do with the idea that you aren't a "real" rapper until a black person thinks you're good.