I find this most of this discussion pretty fucking pointless - I don't mean talking about race in general, I mean listening to most of you (Strutters) talk about race. On the flipside, since I start teaching a course in race, class and gender in a month's time, this has been GREAT fodder to observe how ignorant people are around race. That said, I have the feeling that most of my 18 year old students will be far wiser than some of you "grown ups."
(didn't mean to further ruin your lunch. for real. i just figured we'd already descended to the level of posting pics of Jerry Rice jerseys, so the floodgates for stupid humor/puns was wide open.)
Recently in London this drunken Latino dude comes up to me with a big grin on his face. He's asking for money but he's cool/ got a sense of humor so I engage him while he walks with me. He asks me where I'm from I say " America", he says "oh yeah, me too"..I see where he's going, I had a Peruvian friend who was always on the defensive about the term American being reserved for folks who live in the United States, so I was like "cool, whereabouts?" and he goes "Wisconsin!" and we both fell out.
I find this most of this discussion pretty fucking pointless - I don't mean talking about race in general, I mean listening to most of you (Strutters) talk about race. On the flipside, since I start teaching a course in race, class and gender in a month's time, this has been GREAT fodder to observe how ignorant people are around race. That said, I have the feeling that most of my 18 year old students will be far wiser than some of you "grown ups."
There is nothing more pointless in this thread than this post, ODub. Duck your head in, tell everyone else they're morons, that you and your 18 year olds are smarter than them, and then leave. Nice. Thanks for offering that. I'm gonna go bring my black neighbors some cookies.
What is so wrong with talking about race here? I'm not saying this is gonna bring about MLK's Dream. But, at this point, there is a kneejerk reaction of "DUCK. 5 Pager! Ass Hurt! You're ALL IGNORANT!!!!!" But where else do most people talk about this shit? We get into it at work on occasion, in a way that pertains to our work (which is a very diverse and unique workplace, btw), and I hear a lot about the role of race in higher ed from my old man. But, where do people ever sit down and get other people's opinions- maybe even people of other races, in other countries? Or, maybe even a professor who teaches this shit, maybe he could offer an opinion. I'm not going to any symposiums, and my days of teaching theatre at the Berkeley Black Repatory Theatre, or working as a translator in factory in Indiana, are behind me. Why not talk about it here? Maybe I'll learn something I didn't know before.
I'll be honest. I grew up in a rural, overwhelmingly white town in Ohio. Most of my formative years, and my initial thoughts on race, were shaped by highly educated, liberal, academic parents, and playing sports with racist pricks who loved rap music. Ever since I left that town (immediately upon HS graduation) I've tried to learn more about race, to learn more about how I deal with it. It is an area that I have a lot of confusion, and questions about, in a macro- and micro- sense. And, an equal number of opinions. Which is probably the exactly the same as everyone else on this board. Why not try to learn from each other about that? This board taught me about Joe Bataan and Ray Barretto. It doesn't need to stop there.
Sorry to stoke the flames and get all cranky. But, that shit set me off.
Bottomline: it's not the duty of people of color to educate others (read: white folk) about racism. Period.
All I see in this thread is the basic complaint of, "why do people talk about race/racism so much, why can't we all be colorblind, blah blah blah." And you know what? I'm down to have that conservation under the right circumstances but straight up: Soul Strut very rarely creates the "right circumstnaces" in which that conversation can take place in a constructive way where it doesn't make people - at the very least, me, as both a person of color and someone who studies race - weary to my very fucking bones that once again, it's expected that someone else has to educate the ignorant as to their ignorance.
If Fatback wants to know where the term comes from DO SOME RESEARCH and posing the question on the Strut does not = research. It's really not that hard. It's not like "people of color" was some magical word that the PC pixies sprinkled from a wand and suddenly made vogue. there's a history behind it and a few minutes spent on google is likely to get you an answer far more intelligently than asking the peanut gallery in these parts.
Just comnpare this thread with the "Has Israel gone too far?" and you can see the world of difference.
I mean, this has already become a two pager and with the exception of Young Phonics, 1) no one has really tried to offer up any substantive reply, 2) there's been a lot of jokes thrown around which is fine, but again, that doesn't say to me this conversation has any merit to it and 3) it's opened up the opportunity for other people to complain about what they see as the inanity of race without actually taking a moment to contemplate why it's such an entrenched part of our society and daily lives.
So let me get off one soapbox and jump on another:
For example: sure, "African American" is an imperfect term just as "Black" is an imperfect term. But ALL these classifications are imperfect but that very fact doesn't completely invalidate their necessity or worth.
People need to start with a basic understanding: racism is an embedded part of American society. With such a fundamental inequality (to say nothing of gender or class or sexual orientation inequalities) permeating our society from its base to the very top of power, things like words and terms become important. More important than, say, policy? Probably not, but they aren't unimportant or frivalous just for the sake of. People who live inequality at such an ingrained level, who understand what a glass ceiling actually means in employment, education, health care, social circles, etc. can fundamentally understand that. Those privileged should, at the very least, try to be empathetic rather than acting as if vocabulary is somehow oppressing them.
People who live inequality at such an ingrained level, who understand what a glass ceiling actually means in employment, education, health care, social circles, etc. can fundamentally understand that. Those privileged should, at the very least, try to be empathetic rather than acting as if vocabulary is somehow oppressing them.
Bottomline: it's not the duty of people of color to educate others (read: white folk) about racism. Period.
All I see in this thread is the basic complaint of, "why do people talk about race/racism so much, why can't we all be colorblind, blah blah blah." And you know what? I'm down to have that conservation under the right circumstances but straight up: Soul Strut very rarely creates the "right circumstnaces" in which that conversation can take place in a constructive way where it doesn't make people - at the very least, me, as both a person of color and someone who studies race - weary to my very fucking bones that once again, it's expected that someone else has to educate the ignorant as to their ignorance.
If Fatback wants to know where the term comes from DO SOME RESEARCH and posing the question on the Strut does not = research. It's really not that hard. It's not like "people of color" was some magical word that the PC pixies sprinkled from a wand and suddenly made vogue. there's a history behind it and a few minutes spent on google is likely to get you an answer far more intelligently than asking the peanut gallery in these parts.
Just comnpare this thread with the "Has Israel gone too far?" and you can see the world of difference.
I mean, this has already become a two pager and with the exception of Young Phonics, 1) no one has really tried to offer up any substantive reply, 2) there's been a lot of jokes thrown around which is fine, but again, that doesn't say to me this conversation has any merit to it and 3) it's opened up the opportunity for other people to complain about what they see as the inanity of race without actually taking a moment to contemplate why it's such an entrenched part of our society and daily lives.
So let me get off one soapbox and jump on another:
For example: sure, "African American" is an imperfect term just as "Black" is an imperfect term. But ALL these classifications are imperfect but that very fact doesn't completely invalidate their necessity or worth.
People need to start with a basic understanding: racism is an embedded part of American society. With such a fundamental inequality (to say nothing of gender or class or sexual orientation inequalities) permeating our society from its base to the very top of power, things like words and terms become important. More important than, say, policy? Probably not, but they aren't unimportant or frivalous just for the sake of. People who live inequality at such an ingrained level, who understand what a glass ceiling actually means in employment, education, health care, social circles, etc. can fundamentally understand that. Those privileged should, at the very least, try to be empathetic rather than acting as if vocabulary is somehow oppressing them.
Well. THAT was what I was looking for.
Number 1: I wasn't saying that it was the duty of people of color to educate others. It is everyone's own responsiblity to try to educate themselves by talkint to ALL people. Please don't read that in to what I said.
And, I agree with much of what you said, namely about words and labels- I said something to that effect on the first page, about how words are imperfect, certain flawed words can represent an improvement in race relations, though finding A word does not mean that the search for THE word should stop. That was my complaint. We're stuck with words; some better than others, but all words.
As for someone looking for etymology on SoulStrut...why not? Not everyone needs the 400 level, or hell, even 100 level definition on something. This is a message board, with conversations dovetailing on one another. "People of color," came up in another thread...well, it became a conversation on its own. Isn't that why we all come here? Given the context, I can't judge someone too harshly for not going to consult their local linguist on this one. Or, even Google.
But, puuuuuhlease. Don't bitch about there being nothing 'of substance,' and then wade in with some bullshit academic elitism insult. As your second post showed, you are better than that.
Mostly, though, I DO agree with your last paragraph, and how racism is an embedded part of society. And, that words and distinctions are important, because they can create a distinction whether we realize it or not (said that on page 1 too, btw.) We're stuck with words, and we're bound to racism. Might as well dig our way out of the latter hole with the former- its the only tool we have.
If Fatback wants to know where the term comes from DO SOME RESEARCH and posing the question on the Strut does not = research.
While your opinion is respectfully noted, Oliver Wang, the accusatory tone of your posts require you to be checked...
Did you think that this became Psychology Bulletin? Foreign Affairs? Science? BAAAAAAAAAMP! No. This is a public forum where people write about topics (yes, even records) in a lighthearted conversational way. You really need to step the fuck off your private mind throne. You're a fucking two bit music writer. What? You edited a hip hop book? Great job. It's chock full of errors (I know I should cite, but I tossed my copy). Talk about (not) doing some research. Bitch fucking plaese. Oh, and I'll bury you in social science research. Know that. OK? At the same time, understand that anybody who claims to know more about race than so and so is fucking ate up with dumbass disease.
I find this most of this discussion pretty fucking pointless - I don't mean talking about race in general, I mean listening to most of you (Strutters) talk about race. On the flipside, since I start teaching a course in race, class and gender in a month's time, this has been GREAT fodder to observe how ignorant people are around race. That said, I have the feeling that most of my 18 year old students will be far wiser than some of you "grown ups."
There is nothing more pointless in this thread than this post, ODub. Duck your head in, tell everyone else they're morons, that you and your 18 year olds are smarter than them, and then leave. Nice. Thanks for offering that. I'm gonna go bring my black neighbors some cookies.
What is so wrong with talking about race here? I'm not saying this is gonna bring about MLK's Dream. But, at this point, there is a kneejerk reaction of "DUCK. 5 Pager! Ass Hurt! You're ALL IGNORANT!!!!!" But where else do most people talk about this shit? We get into it at work on occasion, in a way that pertains to our work (which is a very diverse and unique workplace, btw), and I hear a lot about the role of race in higher ed from my old man. But, where do people ever sit down and get other people's opinions- maybe even people of other races, in other countries? Or, maybe even a professor who teaches this shit, maybe he could offer an opinion. I'm not going to any symposiums, and my days of teaching theatre at the Berkeley Black Repatory Theatre, or working as a translator in factory in Indiana, are behind me. Why not talk about it here? Maybe I'll learn something I didn't know before.
I'll be honest. I grew up in a rural, overwhelmingly white town in Ohio. Most of my formative years, and my initial thoughts on race, were shaped by highly educated, liberal, academic parents, and playing sports with racist pricks who loved rap music. Ever since I left that town (immediately upon HS graduation) I've tried to learn more about race, to learn more about how I deal with it. It is an area that I have a lot of confusion, and questions about, in a macro- and micro- sense. And, an equal number of opinions. Which is probably the exactly the same as everyone else on this board. Why not try to learn from each other about that? This board taught me about Joe Bataan and Ray Barretto. It doesn't need to stop there.
Sorry to stoke the flames and get all cranky. But, that shit set me off.
If Fatback wants to know where the term comes from DO SOME RESEARCH and posing the question on the Strut does not = research.
While your opinion is respectfully noted, Oliver Wang, the accusatory tone of your posts require you to be checked...
Did you think that this became Psychology Bulletin? Foreign Affairs? Science? BAAAAAAAAAMP! No. This is a public forum where people write about topics (yes, even records) in a lighthearted conversational way. You really need to step the fuck off your private mind throne. You're a fucking two bit music writer. What? You edited a hip hop book? Great job. It's chock full of errors (I know I should cite, but I tossed my copy). Talk about (not) doing some research. Bitch fucking plaese. Oh, and I'll bury you in social science research. Know that. OK? At the same time, understand that anybody who claims to know more about race than so and so is fucking ate up with dumbass disease.
Fatback - if you could bury my ass in social science research, why didn't you do that on the front end?
By the way, apart from two-bit music writing hack credentials, I'm a professor of sociology with a PhD in Ethnic Studies. That doesn't mean I'm smarter than you writ large but on the topic of race, I have a lil bit of experience. Just a lil. Enough to have seen these same kind of convos go down over and over and enough to be able to discern between someone genuinely trying to get edumucated vs. someone whining about why people of color insist on the term (and btw, we don't). Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was originally your urban pet peeve, no? And if you're capable of quoting to good Dr. King, I'm not understanding how the term's symbolic relevance is so elusive for you.
This comment right here: "what color? everybody has color," just smacks of (il)liberal naivete.
And your whole "check this eye chart" was more condescending than anything I threw at you.
Look - I regret the air of condescension I perpetuated in this conversation. It's neither civil nor constructive. And to seriously address your point Hoggy, it's not reflective of my professionalism in the classroom as a teacher. (Strut, however, is not exactly part of my "professional life" thank goodness).
As to the content of my comments though, I stand by the general point that if you're not understanding the vocabulary of race, you're not understanding racism - not its pervasiveness, not its impact, and not how people, in limited but necessary ways, try to respond and cope with living under this condition. Words mean both very little and everything in that kind of situation.
Look - I regret the air of condescension I perpetuated in this conversation. It's neither civil nor constructive. And to seriously address your point Hoggy, it's not reflective of my professionalism in the classroom as a teacher. (Strut, however, is not exactly part of my "professional life" thank goodness).
I appreciate your opening statement there, O. Your earlier comment seemed out of character for you, but I understand how these things get heated.
As to the content of my comments though, I stand by the general point that if you're not understanding the vocabulary of race, you're not understanding racism - not its pervasiveness, not its impact, and not how people, in limited but necessary ways, try to respond and cope with living under this condition. Words mean both very little and everything in that kind of situation.
I agree with this, too, but understand that white people aren't gonna learn a lot about race from other white people. I went to a mostly white high school, which taught me plenty about mostly white things, but it wasn't until I was 16 and started working a job with kids from a predominantly black high school that I began to learn anything about the local black experience. And I didn't learn much about Chinese culture until I spent 7 years training kung fu in a Chinatown basement with a 75-year-old Canton-born/Kowloon-raised teacher and took 3 Cantonese night classes at City College (and ended up as a member of--gulp--the Su*y S*ng Association--don't test my triad gangster, O!). Of course, everyone just assumed I learned Canto 'cause I had a Chinese girlfriend. Wrong; that's how I learned Swedish and Portuguese.
And to BATMON's line about race and ethnicity being different, please don't think that I conflate the two (although many do, I'm sure). Yes, German, Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants have all, at one point or another, been discriminated against in America, but at the end of the day, they were all probably very stoked to be white (because that's the real bottom line). Why do you think so many German-Americans changed their surnames in the 1940s? It's a helluva lot easier than changing your skin tone.
I agree with this, too, but understand that white people aren't gonna learn a lot about race from other white people. I went to a mostly white high school, which taught me plenty about mostly white things, but it wasn't until I was 16 and started working a job with kids from a predominantly black high school that I began to learn anything about the local black experience. And I didn't learn much about Chinese culture until I spent 7 years training kung fu in a Chinatown basement with a 75-year-old Canton-born/Kowloon-raised teacher and took 3 Cantonese night classes at City College (and ended up as a member of--gulp--the Su*y S*ng Association--don't test my triad gangster, O!). Of course, everyone just assumed I learned Canto 'cause I had a Chinese girlfriend. Wrong; that's how I learned Swedish and Portuguese.
See - this is really vitally important to appreciate: the expansion of your consciousness happened at the point where you were able to interact - in the real, physical world - with people outside of your immediate experience/community (be that racial, class, etc.) That kind of education - via interaction - is something that, as a society, I think we're really moving away from, especially in the last 30 years as re-segregation patterns have settled into a lot of residential sectors of America. I'm hardly the first to note this but social isolation is becoming a new norm in this country and while people may herald the internet's ability to build community that transcends geography, the fact that we're NOT forced to deal with each other face to face usually means that the internet cannot transcend social difference or attitudes.
So like I said, I'm sorry I came at Fatback the way I did - there were more constructive ways to do it and I lost my temper. But my point was that it's meaningless (to a large extent) to hash this out online. If Fatback and I were sitting at a bar having the same conversation (me drinking a cranberry and soda of course), I might have been a bit annoyed but I wouldn't have barked on him. Online? No one's really listening - at least, not in the same way that by actually sitting across from someone, and listening to them, is a basic way of acknowledging their very humanity, the fact that they have a right to speak and be heard (though of course, not necessarily agreed with).
With something like race and racism, I just don't think an online environment is going to be conducive to any real learning or empathy. You gotta just get out there and be in the physical world to understand something like oppression and subjugation. And just so I'm clear, I'm not at all implying that suffering is the sole domain of people of color or what have you. I think one of the striking limitations of contemporary race relationships is failing to see BOTH differences AND similarities in the struggles people face.
That said, and this goes back to FB's original question: I agree with him that "people of color" is flawed but I'd rather not attack it - as he does - on an entymological level. The term exists because it acknowledges a racial hierachy of power which very much is divided between (at current at least) "whites" and "people not white". However, because it's not very empowering to define oneself vis a vis a negation (women are more than just "not men"), "people of color" is a way to reclaim and transform what used to be a negative term of sorts ("colored people") into something that's both descriptive and has a utility.
Do I love the term? Hardly. As FB and others note, the danger lurks that it presumes that all people of color have the same experiences or have to deal with racism equally. However, I certainly know that I - as an Asian man - have a very different set of social consequences facing me vs. if I were, say, a Black woman. And sure, even within those categories (Asian, Black, etc.) you can point out that you're squashing difference there too. Does Black include West Indian? In some parts of New York, you'd find Black people who'd say no even though West Indians trace their heritage back to the slave trade just as many African Americans do.
It's all about power and limited resources and that's why these terms are both contested and important. And there's no easy way out - we can't banish the terms and expect that racism disappears with it. Nor does the usage of a term necessarily make life that much easier either. But we're talking about tactics and strategies of people and communities trying to tear down a power structure that's massive, entrenched and violent. There's no "perfect" solution; what we're left with is a lot of imperfection striving to overcome its inherent limitations.
Small point: I don't think women or GBLTG should be lumped under "people of color" as a term since 1) it REALLY makes no entymological sense on any level and 2) if conflating different ethnicities under the banner of "people of color" is dangerous, conflating the experiences of women and GBLTG under that banner is even more worrisome. I appreciate the desire to build solidarity but like I said, in a sea of imperfection, such an all-purpose umbrella term feels especially troublesome.
in terms of the census and federal reporting requirement for states. the term Asian/pacific islander is pretty useless IMO. so Hawaiian, Japanese, Indian have less in common then each respective group has with Europeans or Africans. even worse a lot of states report middle easterners under Asian/pi. so throw Persian, Arab, Israeli into that mix.
fucking useless data.
I don't think it's useless though I agree, it certainly calls into question what the methodological rationale would be for that kind of lumping together.
The thing here though is that the term, API, is 1) invented (vs. a reflection of some kind of organic, conglomerate community and 2) a reflection of political necessity. Because individual Asian American communities (i.e. Korean, Japanese, Filipino, etc.) are demographically too small on their own, by joining under the banner of "API" they're in a better political position to act in unison as a way of gaining rights and a social voice that may not exist otherwise.
Again, the term is incredibly imperfect and believe me, within the API community, "we" (whatever that means) talk about it all the time. Not surprisingly, the groups that tend to be most comfortable with it - Chinese, Japanese and to a lesser extent, Koreans - are also the ones who have historically had the most power/privilege (WWII internment aside) vs. Filipinos and South Asians for whom a different set of social experiences has often confronted them and they are less likely to see the political worth in joining the API banner even if the Census Bureau lumps them in.
Just to note however: Latino Americans pretty much ascribe to the same kind of pan-ethnic label despite cultural and racial differences within that community but it's rarely seen as problematic to the same extent because Spanish (and to a lesser extent, Catholicism) is seen as a unifying force. Obviously, the same can't be said amongst APIs who have no shared lingustic basis for solidarity and few cultural similarities either.
The problem with people from the Middle East is that "racially" speaking, they're just as diverse as Latinos and Asians. We tend to think of the ME as all Arab but as the discussion in the Israel/Lebanon thread noted, there's far more internal diversity there that would make a "Middle Eastern" label on a gov't form kind of problematic but then again, lumping them in with APIs doesn't nail it either.
1. I recently read an essay that explained the term 'African American' as an attempt to reframe the identity question as one of ethnicity, rather than one of race. Instead of 'black' and 'white', which are pretty loaded terms, you've got 'African American', which is about as loaded as 'Polish American' or 'Irish American', i.e. not as loaded. It's an interesting idea, but as previously pointed out, it fails to describe people from the West Indies, for example. So what's a good replacement?
2. If I moved to China, where the culture, language, power structures, etc. are overwhelmingly Chinese, would I be a person of color? (ohio whiteboy)
KK, sometimes you do sound like Bill Cunningham. See you at the free concert?
1. I think the genealogy of "African American" was definitely an attempt to move away from a biological concept of race and instead, replace it with something more akin to an ethnic category. That said, it hasn't made it any less contested. Whether a "better" term exists, to me, is a little besides the point insofar as the ultimate goal is actually arriving at a point where these labels are unnecessary. I, however, am not of the school of thought that wants to abolish racial terms before we actually abolish racism.
2. In China, you'd be a "bai gwei", meaning "white devil" which reflects the very fractious history that China has had with white Europeans and Americans who basically fucked up the country something terrible in the 19th century (even though, yes, China had a lot of other problems having nothing to do with the ambitions of Western imperialism). I can't remember if there's an equivalent Chinese term for the Japanese term, "gaijian" (outsider) but knowing how ridiculously ethnocentric Chinese can be, I don't doubt this would be the case.
This said, racial difference in China is not like it is here in the States. In fact, a lot of how Chinese understand race - within the Western context - is no doubt influenced by exported American and European media (tv, movies, music, etc.). What you have in China is a lot of inter-ethnic tensions but it's not quite the same as the state of race relations in America. It's complicated in a whole different way, just as the caste system in India is like-race-yet-not-like-race.
So let me throw some gas on this here fire.
1. I recently read an essay that explained the term 'African American' as an attempt to reframe the identity question as one of ethnicity, rather than one of race. Instead of 'black' and 'white', which are pretty loaded terms, you've got 'African American', which is about as loaded as 'Polish American' or 'Irish American', i.e. not as loaded. It's an interesting idea, but as previously pointed out, it fails to describe people from the West Indies, for example. So what's a good replacement?
2. If I moved to China, where the culture, language, power structures, etc. are overwhelmingly Chinese, would I be a person of color? (ohio whiteboy)
KK, sometimes you do sound like Bill Cunningham. See you at the free concert?
I just wrote a long response and "the form you submitted is not longer valid" shit!
I gotta go. Sorry.
Oliver you rule. I actually agree with almost everything you write up in this bitch. I'm just jumping at the righteous tone of your post. we'll have to get buried another time. Have a nice day.
Comments
midwesterncornfeedcaucasion.
(didn't mean to further ruin your lunch. for real. i just figured we'd already descended to the level of posting pics of Jerry Rice jerseys, so the floodgates for stupid humor/puns was wide open.)
There is nothing more pointless in this thread than this post, ODub. Duck your head in, tell everyone else they're morons, that you and your 18 year olds are smarter than them, and then leave. Nice. Thanks for offering that. I'm gonna go bring my black neighbors some cookies.
What is so wrong with talking about race here? I'm not saying this is gonna bring about MLK's Dream. But, at this point, there is a kneejerk reaction of "DUCK. 5 Pager! Ass Hurt! You're ALL IGNORANT!!!!!" But where else do most people talk about this shit? We get into it at work on occasion, in a way that pertains to our work (which is a very diverse and unique workplace, btw), and I hear a lot about the role of race in higher ed from my old man. But, where do people ever sit down and get other people's opinions- maybe even people of other races, in other countries? Or, maybe even a professor who teaches this shit, maybe he could offer an opinion. I'm not going to any symposiums, and my days of teaching theatre at the Berkeley Black Repatory Theatre, or working as a translator in factory in Indiana, are behind me. Why not talk about it here? Maybe I'll learn something I didn't know before.
I'll be honest. I grew up in a rural, overwhelmingly white town in Ohio. Most of my formative years, and my initial thoughts on race, were shaped by highly educated, liberal, academic parents, and playing sports with racist pricks who loved rap music. Ever since I left that town (immediately upon HS graduation) I've tried to learn more about race, to learn more about how I deal with it. It is an area that I have a lot of confusion, and questions about, in a macro- and micro- sense. And, an equal number of opinions. Which is probably the exactly the same as everyone else on this board. Why not try to learn from each other about that? This board taught me about Joe Bataan and Ray Barretto. It doesn't need to stop there.
Sorry to stoke the flames and get all cranky. But, that shit set me off.
Bottomline: it's not the duty of people of color to educate others (read: white folk) about racism. Period.
All I see in this thread is the basic complaint of, "why do people talk about race/racism so much, why can't we all be colorblind, blah blah blah." And you know what? I'm down to have that conservation under the right circumstances but straight up: Soul Strut very rarely creates the "right circumstnaces" in which that conversation can take place in a constructive way where it doesn't make people - at the very least, me, as both a person of color and someone who studies race - weary to my very fucking bones that once again, it's expected that someone else has to educate the ignorant as to their ignorance.
If Fatback wants to know where the term comes from DO SOME RESEARCH and posing the question on the Strut does not = research. It's really not that hard. It's not like "people of color" was some magical word that the PC pixies sprinkled from a wand and suddenly made vogue. there's a history behind it and a few minutes spent on google is likely to get you an answer far more intelligently than asking the peanut gallery in these parts.
Just comnpare this thread with the "Has Israel gone too far?" and you can see the world of difference.
I mean, this has already become a two pager and with the exception of Young Phonics, 1) no one has really tried to offer up any substantive reply, 2) there's been a lot of jokes thrown around which is fine, but again, that doesn't say to me this conversation has any merit to it and 3) it's opened up the opportunity for other people to complain about what they see as the inanity of race without actually taking a moment to contemplate why it's such an entrenched part of our society and daily lives.
So let me get off one soapbox and jump on another:
For example: sure, "African American" is an imperfect term just as "Black" is an imperfect term. But ALL these classifications are imperfect but that very fact doesn't completely invalidate their necessity or worth.
People need to start with a basic understanding: racism is an embedded part of American society. With such a fundamental inequality (to say nothing of gender or class or sexual orientation inequalities) permeating our society from its base to the very top of power, things like words and terms become important. More important than, say, policy? Probably not, but they aren't unimportant or frivalous just for the sake of. People who live inequality at such an ingrained level, who understand what a glass ceiling actually means in employment, education, health care, social circles, etc. can fundamentally understand that. Those privileged should, at the very least, try to be empathetic rather than acting as if vocabulary is somehow oppressing them.
'Nuff said.
Well. THAT was what I was looking for.
Number 1: I wasn't saying that it was the duty of people of color to educate others. It is everyone's own responsiblity to try to educate themselves by talkint to ALL people. Please don't read that in to what I said.
And, I agree with much of what you said, namely about words and labels- I said something to that effect on the first page, about how words are imperfect, certain flawed words can represent an improvement in race relations, though finding A word does not mean that the search for THE word should stop. That was my complaint. We're stuck with words; some better than others, but all words.
As for someone looking for etymology on SoulStrut...why not? Not everyone needs the 400 level, or hell, even 100 level definition on something. This is a message board, with conversations dovetailing on one another. "People of color," came up in another thread...well, it became a conversation on its own. Isn't that why we all come here? Given the context, I can't judge someone too harshly for not going to consult their local linguist on this one. Or, even Google.
But, puuuuuhlease. Don't bitch about there being nothing 'of substance,' and then wade in with some bullshit academic elitism insult. As your second post showed, you are better than that.
Mostly, though, I DO agree with your last paragraph, and how racism is an embedded part of society. And, that words and distinctions are important, because they can create a distinction whether we realize it or not (said that on page 1 too, btw.) We're stuck with words, and we're bound to racism. Might as well dig our way out of the latter hole with the former- its the only tool we have.
While your opinion is respectfully noted, Oliver Wang, the accusatory tone of your posts require you to be checked...
Did you think that this became Psychology Bulletin? Foreign Affairs? Science? BAAAAAAAAAMP! No. This is a public forum where people write about topics (yes, even records) in a lighthearted conversational way. You really need to step the fuck off your private mind throne. You're a fucking two bit music writer. What? You edited a hip hop book? Great job. It's chock full of errors (I know I should cite, but I tossed my copy). Talk about (not) doing some research. Bitch fucking plaese. Oh, and I'll bury you in social science research. Know that. OK? At the same time, understand that anybody who claims to know more about race than so and so is fucking ate up with dumbass disease.
cosign!
ZING!
I bought some great records of color from Oliver's porch sale!
If your above post is any indication of how you'll lead that class, God help the wayward white 18-year-olds who register for it.
Fatback - if you could bury my ass in social science research, why didn't you do that on the front end?
By the way, apart from two-bit music writing hack credentials, I'm a professor of sociology with a PhD in Ethnic Studies. That doesn't mean I'm smarter than you writ large but on the topic of race, I have a lil bit of experience. Just a lil. Enough to have seen these same kind of convos go down over and over and enough to be able to discern between someone genuinely trying to get edumucated vs. someone whining about why people of color insist on the term (and btw, we don't). Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was originally your urban pet peeve, no? And if you're capable of quoting to good Dr. King, I'm not understanding how the term's symbolic relevance is so elusive for you.
This comment right here: "what color? everybody has color," just smacks of (il)liberal naivete.
And your whole "check this eye chart" was more condescending than anything I threw at you.
Hey, what are you implying? Some of my best friends are white!
As to the content of my comments though, I stand by the general point that if you're not understanding the vocabulary of race, you're not understanding racism - not its pervasiveness, not its impact, and not how people, in limited but necessary ways, try to respond and cope with living under this condition. Words mean both very little and everything in that kind of situation.
I appreciate your opening statement there, O. Your earlier comment seemed out of character for you, but I understand how these things get heated.
I agree with this, too, but understand that white people aren't gonna learn a lot about race from other white people. I went to a mostly white high school, which taught me plenty about mostly white things, but it wasn't until I was 16 and started working a job with kids from a predominantly black high school that I began to learn anything about the local black experience. And I didn't learn much about Chinese culture until I spent 7 years training kung fu in a Chinatown basement with a 75-year-old Canton-born/Kowloon-raised teacher and took 3 Cantonese night classes at City College (and ended up as a member of--gulp--the Su*y S*ng Association--don't test my triad gangster, O!). Of course, everyone just assumed I learned Canto 'cause I had a Chinese girlfriend. Wrong; that's how I learned Swedish and Portuguese.
And to BATMON's line about race and ethnicity being different, please don't think that I conflate the two (although many do, I'm sure). Yes, German, Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants have all, at one point or another, been discriminated against in America, but at the end of the day, they were all probably very stoked to be white (because that's the real bottom line). Why do you think so many German-Americans changed their surnames in the 1940s? It's a helluva lot easier than changing your skin tone.
See - this is really vitally important to appreciate: the expansion of your consciousness happened at the point where you were able to interact - in the real, physical world - with people outside of your immediate experience/community (be that racial, class, etc.) That kind of education - via interaction - is something that, as a society, I think we're really moving away from, especially in the last 30 years as re-segregation patterns have settled into a lot of residential sectors of America. I'm hardly the first to note this but social isolation is becoming a new norm in this country and while people may herald the internet's ability to build community that transcends geography, the fact that we're NOT forced to deal with each other face to face usually means that the internet cannot transcend social difference or attitudes.
So like I said, I'm sorry I came at Fatback the way I did - there were more constructive ways to do it and I lost my temper. But my point was that it's meaningless (to a large extent) to hash this out online. If Fatback and I were sitting at a bar having the same conversation (me drinking a cranberry and soda of course), I might have been a bit annoyed but I wouldn't have barked on him. Online? No one's really listening - at least, not in the same way that by actually sitting across from someone, and listening to them, is a basic way of acknowledging their very humanity, the fact that they have a right to speak and be heard (though of course, not necessarily agreed with).
With something like race and racism, I just don't think an online environment is going to be conducive to any real learning or empathy. You gotta just get out there and be in the physical world to understand something like oppression and subjugation. And just so I'm clear, I'm not at all implying that suffering is the sole domain of people of color or what have you. I think one of the striking limitations of contemporary race relationships is failing to see BOTH differences AND similarities in the struggles people face.
That said, and this goes back to FB's original question: I agree with him that "people of color" is flawed but I'd rather not attack it - as he does - on an entymological level. The term exists because it acknowledges a racial hierachy of power which very much is divided between (at current at least) "whites" and "people not white". However, because it's not very empowering to define oneself vis a vis a negation (women are more than just "not men"), "people of color" is a way to reclaim and transform what used to be a negative term of sorts ("colored people") into something that's both descriptive and has a utility.
Do I love the term? Hardly. As FB and others note, the danger lurks that it presumes that all people of color have the same experiences or have to deal with racism equally. However, I certainly know that I - as an Asian man - have a very different set of social consequences facing me vs. if I were, say, a Black woman. And sure, even within those categories (Asian, Black, etc.) you can point out that you're squashing difference there too. Does Black include West Indian? In some parts of New York, you'd find Black people who'd say no even though West Indians trace their heritage back to the slave trade just as many African Americans do.
It's all about power and limited resources and that's why these terms are both contested and important. And there's no easy way out - we can't banish the terms and expect that racism disappears with it. Nor does the usage of a term necessarily make life that much easier either. But we're talking about tactics and strategies of people and communities trying to tear down a power structure that's massive, entrenched and violent. There's no "perfect" solution; what we're left with is a lot of imperfection striving to overcome its inherent limitations.
Small point: I don't think women or GBLTG should be lumped under "people of color" as a term since 1) it REALLY makes no entymological sense on any level and 2) if conflating different ethnicities under the banner of "people of color" is dangerous, conflating the experiences of women and GBLTG under that banner is even more worrisome. I appreciate the desire to build solidarity but like I said, in a sea of imperfection, such an all-purpose umbrella term feels especially troublesome.
I don't think it's useless though I agree, it certainly calls into question what the methodological rationale would be for that kind of lumping together.
The thing here though is that the term, API, is 1) invented (vs. a reflection of some kind of organic, conglomerate community and 2) a reflection of political necessity. Because individual Asian American communities (i.e. Korean, Japanese, Filipino, etc.) are demographically too small on their own, by joining under the banner of "API" they're in a better political position to act in unison as a way of gaining rights and a social voice that may not exist otherwise.
Again, the term is incredibly imperfect and believe me, within the API community, "we" (whatever that means) talk about it all the time. Not surprisingly, the groups that tend to be most comfortable with it - Chinese, Japanese and to a lesser extent, Koreans - are also the ones who have historically had the most power/privilege (WWII internment aside) vs. Filipinos and South Asians for whom a different set of social experiences has often confronted them and they are less likely to see the political worth in joining the API banner even if the Census Bureau lumps them in.
Just to note however: Latino Americans pretty much ascribe to the same kind of pan-ethnic label despite cultural and racial differences within that community but it's rarely seen as problematic to the same extent because Spanish (and to a lesser extent, Catholicism) is seen as a unifying force. Obviously, the same can't be said amongst APIs who have no shared lingustic basis for solidarity and few cultural similarities either.
The problem with people from the Middle East is that "racially" speaking, they're just as diverse as Latinos and Asians. We tend to think of the ME as all Arab but as the discussion in the Israel/Lebanon thread noted, there's far more internal diversity there that would make a "Middle Eastern" label on a gov't form kind of problematic but then again, lumping them in with APIs doesn't nail it either.
1. I recently read an essay that explained the term 'African American' as an attempt to reframe the identity question as one of ethnicity, rather than one of race. Instead of 'black' and 'white', which are pretty loaded terms, you've got 'African American', which is about as loaded as 'Polish American' or 'Irish American', i.e. not as loaded. It's an interesting idea, but as previously pointed out, it fails to describe people from the West Indies, for example. So what's a good replacement?
2. If I moved to China, where the culture, language, power structures, etc. are overwhelmingly Chinese, would I be a person of color? (ohio whiteboy)
KK, sometimes you do sound like Bill Cunningham.
2. In China, you'd be a "bai gwei", meaning "white devil" which reflects the very fractious history that China has had with white Europeans and Americans who basically fucked up the country something terrible in the 19th century (even though, yes, China had a lot of other problems having nothing to do with the ambitions of Western imperialism). I can't remember if there's an equivalent Chinese term for the Japanese term, "gaijian" (outsider) but knowing how ridiculously ethnocentric Chinese can be, I don't doubt this would be the case.
This said, racial difference in China is not like it is here in the States. In fact, a lot of how Chinese understand race - within the Western context - is no doubt influenced by exported American and European media (tv, movies, music, etc.). What you have in China is a lot of inter-ethnic tensions but it's not quite the same as the state of race relations in America. It's complicated in a whole different way, just as the caste system in India is like-race-yet-not-like-race.
is not a word.
Entomology = the study of insects
Etymology = the study of words
Or perhaps you were thinking of...
Carry on.
at least that's how it was explained to me in a chicano studies class.
Many Puerto Ricans in NYC classify themselves as hispanic.
I just wrote a long response and "the form you submitted is not longer valid" shit!
I gotta go. Sorry.
Oliver you rule. I actually agree with almost everything you write up in this bitch. I'm just jumping at the righteous tone of your post. we'll have to get buried another time. Have a nice day.
You're wrong. That is not my urban pet peeve. I need to make that clear, if it came off that way.
Also, I lied. Your book is still sitting on the back of my tiolet.
That's pretty much the right place for it.
And Hoggy, etymological it is. For whatever reason, I was to jam an "n" in there. Must be some latent insect love.
My crates are closed to you. You gets no butt, dogg.
(i went to a pig roast in RI.)