I think, to some degree, there's definitely a kind of vicarious excitement to listening to music that's so far out of one's personal experience (and this is hardly limited to White fans. As someone noted, it could just as easily apply to upper class Black listeners too, though I wouldn't equate the two just on the basis of class). I mean, the whole quip about "the exotic being erotic" is actually really, really true. There's definitely a fascination people have with "exotic" experiences.
Especially in America, the legacy of racism and particular Black/White relations (but not exclusive to them) has created, time and time again, a fascination amongst Whites for elements of Black culture/experience precisely because it seems exotic to them. Look at the history and continued legacy of minstrelsy, for example. I don't think anyone can divorce the popularity of hip-hop - which is, by far, the most Black and masculinized form of popular culture in the last quarter century - from a legacy of race relations, racism, White Supremacy, etc.
That said, just as I think someone claiming that White kids liking hip-hop has NOTHING to do with race would be bullshit, I'd cast equal doubt on the claim that it ONLY has to do with race. At a basic level, hip-hop - gangsta and otherwise - is appealing as a sonic force that hits you before you ever really listen to lyrics. I mean, "The Chronic" and "Straight Outta Compton" didn't become shit hot albums STRICTLY because of the gangsta talk. It was also because they featured beats that knocked your fucking head off. And given the topics that gangsta rappers tend to spit about, there's a good likelihood to find some "head knocking" beats on their albums more so than, I dunno, the Me Phi Me album.
Lastly, and this is a little tangent but it seems apropos to our discussion here...I got back from the EMP pop music conf in Seattle and saw Robert Christgau (aka one of the central godfathers of rock criticism in America) gave a really amazing paper about his ambivalence towards gangsta rap over the years yet finding something powerful and important about it in a time of personal crisis.
If I didn't note this, someone else would, be Xgau has been highly criticized for taking what seems to be a double standard: villifying Dr. Dre while praising Eminem even though, as some would argue, their content is quite similar but when a Black man does it, it's deplorable and when a white dude does it, it's genius. Not having read Xgau's critiques of Dre, I can't say myself but I think it's important to at least note this.
That said, what the gist of Xgau's paper was (and I'm trying to paraphrase carefully here) is that he's always had a discomfort with the violence and misogyny of gangsta rap yet, at what he calls "the middle distance" (which is to say, hearing gangsta rap but not really listening to it on a careful, lyrical level) he finds that he likes a lot of it and that makes sense: it's sonically appealing much of the time.
However, this past winter, he was listening to a lot of Lil Wayne on the recommendation of Chuck Eddy (Village Voice music editor just fired) and in the middle of this, his father died after a long time of being infirm and unhappy at his infirmity. And Xgau had a lot of pent up guilty and self-rage at his father's long sickness and then death and what he found was cathartic was actually listening to songs like "Problem Solver" on Weezy's album. As he put it, in the clear, direct violence of Weezy's song content, Xgau found an outlet for his own rage and need to vent and that, as surprising as it may sound for a 60 year old white rock critic to say it, Weezy's music helped him deal with the intense grief over losing his father. And it wasn't because Xgau lost himself in the fantasy - it was because, in that moment of crisis, he found that Lil Wayne's songs spoke an aggression that he himself needed to express. So in sense, it is a kind of vicariousness, but not for the sake of titillation but rather, because he felt Weezy was able to tap into something that Xgau himself was having trouble doing.
Suffice to say, you kind of had to be there to listen to it, but it was a pretty remarkable paper to witness and that's not to say someone couldn't critique it but I think Xgau was able to articulate an alternative explanation to why so many people like gangsta rap even when they didn't grow up under the conditions that created the underlying tensions expressed in gangsta rap.
Why do you listen to gangster shit? If you don't live the life and you're not around people in that life, what does it do for you?
It seems like alot of you on here more or less listen to it so I thought I'd ask. Cause I seriously wanna know. Does it make you feel more "connected to the streets" or do you just like listening to Black folks kick shit that re-affirms your views of them? Just curious.
For real tho, knowledge me. And don't get your knickerbockers in a bunch.
Corny. WHy dont you like gangster shit? Do you not like mob movies either? Action flicks? Goodfellas?
Its entertainment. Im baffled by people who will watch anything, but will only listen to music that supports their particular world view.
Do I sell tons of coke every day? no. Do i like to pretend i do? Not really.
Dont you like N.W.A.? Kool G. Rap? Cuban Linx?
Where is this vitrol coming from day? What else should a white dude be listening to?
Concious, Pro Black, 5% percenter rap?
I like that shit too. Guess what? I cant relate to that stuff either!
By your logic i should only be listening to music made by people who are like me and share my cultural upbringing? Only music made by white people? WHat is you really saying day?
Damn, did I hit a nerve there, homie?
I'm not saying you can't listen to the shit, I'm wondering why people like yourself ONLY listen to it.
I like Scarface, but I don't need to watch it 24 hours a day. Yahm? And yo, I just asked what I think is a valid question. Don't get so defensive.
NO, not really, but i knew you were talking to me. And i do think you sound kinda silly in your original post. And that point about re-affirming my views about black people? How is that a valid question?
Furthermore, why do you care?
Yeah, you were definitley in my mind when I made that post. I think you're a good example of what I'm trying to get at.
I think some of you dudes spout that "well, you just don't know the real Black experience" shit while you watch from the sidelines. These same dude's will swear to be down for the people, but when someone like Talib (who I don't dig as an MC but respect what he's about) or any other group doesn't follow what they deem as "real rap" that the streets is feeling, they get clowned. When in actuality, if they truly cared about what was going on, would respect what they're trying to do regardless of their musical talent or lack thereof. It just seems silly to me when I see all these White guys pontificating on what Black is when the majority of you probably insulate yourselves from the culture itself.
That's why I asked what I asked.
Please. WHen did i say that i understood anything about the "real black experience"? I guess i can respect what alot of rappers are about, but if the music is not good to me im not gonna listen to it. I dont care particularly what "the streets are feeling". Honestly, i wouldnt know what the streets are feeling. Im in my apartment posting on the internet.
I really dont get where you think im "pontificating" on what black is. You are way out of leftfield with that one.
Is it something i said? Or are you just assuming all of that because im a white guy that likes gangster rap?
Right, except that you seem to think Americans only think of non-whites as poor, and that's just not true - and I still don't understand why it's an "advantage" for poor people of color to be identified with the "ghetto." Are you talking about street cred or something?
No, you're misunderstanding me (or my poor english). I don't mean advantage as in benefitial for them (the poor people of color), and it has nothing to do with street cred. Not at all. What I'm saying is that the whole picture of the urban ghetto, with mostly non-white inhabitants, has developed to be a dominating "definition" of a ghetto today, and out of that we get the stereotypes. What is happening I would say is a commodification of the black gangster rapper (the stereotype). It has becomed an object for more delights and entertainment, also for white people (as this whole thread started out on). I have a lot of taughts behind this, but I don't wanna cause a riot up in here
On the contrary, a white rapper would not very often succeed as a gangster rapper from the same "ghetto" because we would question his authencity - his realness. This because white people are predominating representations of the middle- or upperclass.
Race is all about our ability to think abstractively - our ability to categorize a black or white or latin og jewish or muslim person before we've even met them. It's difficult to not to, and that is why I believe this is important.
If I didn't note this, someone else would, be Xgau has been highly criticized for taking what seems to be a double standard: villifying Dr. Dre while praising Eminem even though, as some would argue, their content is quite similar but when a Black man does it, it's deplorable and when a white dude does it, it's genius. Not having read Xgau's critiques of Dre, I can't say myself but I think it's important to at least note this.
Is this really true? There is a writer or anyone else for that matter giving praise to Eminem out of one side of their mouth and "villifying" Dre out of the other side? I always had the understanding that most believed, that if Dre had never put Eminem on, that he would still be in Detroit never being anything more than an independent/underground MC.
I wonder. Does Dre even want any praising from the media or anyone else outside the black community?
Further more, I'd be willing to bet. That for every 10,000 white kids that love them some Eminem, there's one black kid. Where, if you took how many Black & White kids respected and liked Dre, you would have far more equal numbers.
Anyway, I say who cares. In the 80's I was listening to Schooly D & Ice T and in the late 80's I was checkin' for The Geto Boys. I didn't wanna be a gangster anymore than I wanted to be a drug king pin when I watched scareface 10 times in a row. I just wanted to enjoy the same things my peers did cause I felt (& found) something in the music, that I didn't feel (or find) anywhere else.
There are far bigger problems in the world right now than white kids wishing they were thugs (I wonder right now how many kids there are around the world wishing they were Italian when they watch Sopranos or the Gotti's. Wishing they could be anything close to that stereotype). And even if it was true, I'd rather be looking to the positives on what brings people together than things that are tearing everyone apart.
PS- Speaking of the Gotti's. I was watching some dumb celebrity singing show lastnight and the one Gotti kid's didn't even know who Bobby Brown was or had never heard of It's My Prerogative. That truly scares me. I weep for the future.
you guys sure do spend a lot of time talking about Black people... probably not enough time talking to Black people...
I wonder what the Black folks on this board think about the debate...
PS
Oliver that's amazing. I would like to read the paper if it's ever available. Great post.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
To answer the original question...ideally I prefer soldier-oriented MC's who are making it a point to fight against injustice with brute force and intellect, but all too often I find myself having to settle for MC's whose revolution consists of them thinking that selling crack is the primary way to get over.
Really, too much explicit crack and ho rap annoys the fuck out of me. I'll make a concession here and there for a good song, but for the most part it's gets the gasface from me.
But still, I love what I guess in this case you are calling thug rap. I'm white but my background is having to fistfight my way through late-70's/early-80's Creole New Orleans. In other words, I don't want to see Bush voted out of office. I want to see him strangled...to a dope beat.
Speaking of which, I've also done enough drugs in my day that I really appreciate drug-inspired music.
I wonder what the Black folks on this board think about the debate...
I like the fact these artists create debates that bring attention to the situation of black people but I would trade a cultural debate over an actual socio-economical solution/debate anyday of the week. (this goes for N.America in general)
I was simply saying debates over gangsta content on the most basic level ''yo, im just a journalist, telling tales from where i come from, this is how it is in the hood' bring attention to the tough situation of a majority of black people in america...at least slightly..until they get into that role model shit
I was simply saying debates over gangsta content on the most basic level ''yo, im just a journalist, telling tales from where i come from, this is how it is in the hood' bring attention to the tough situation of a majority of black people in america...at least slightly..until they get into that role model shit
Well, a point that I was reminded about in reading a story about gangsta rap FROM 1991 basically puts it this way: most gangsta rap talks about what it's like to pull the trigger, but not to catch the heat. If it's all about reality, then why isn't victimhood given equal attention as the people out there thuggin it and hustlin it? It's one thing to write a song about how to cook crack but you don't hear songs about what it's like to be strung the fuck out.
As noted - most of these dudes never lived the lives they're rhyming about anyways, so if they're inventing fiction, why is it that they're only focused on half the story?
To be sure, I'm still on the fence with this argument and in general, the argument about whether gangsta rap is truly influential in a negative way or not. There was another debate that broke out at the EMP conference I was at this weekend which addresses this issue: do kids think T.I. is urging them to go sell crack? Or do they understand "the trap game" as a metaphor for things besides how to bag up coke? The problem is: we don't have enough data to really prove the point.
There was another debate that broke out at the EMP conference I was at this weekend which addresses this issue: do kids think T.I. is urging them to go sell crack? Or do they understand "the trap game" as a metaphor for things besides how to bag up coke? The problem is: we don't have enough data to really prove the point.
Well, regardless of whether they understand the trap on a metaphorical level or not, T.I. has been pretty consistent in his position that it's not a desirable thing for people to get involved in and that he represents the exception in experiencing relative success with it and getting out. He's not urging anybody to sell crack. Just saying.
There was another debate that broke out at the EMP conference I was at this weekend which addresses this issue: do kids think T.I. is urging them to go sell crack? Or do they understand "the trap game" as a metaphor for things besides how to bag up coke? The problem is: we don't have enough data to really prove the point.
Well, regardless of whether they understand the trap on a metaphorical level or not, T.I. has been pretty consistent in his position that it's not a desirable thing for people to get involved in and that he represents the exception in experiencing relative success with it and getting out. He's not urging anybody to sell crack. Just saying.
I was in the food service industry and got out. Shit was realer than real.
The following is an excerpt taken from Noz's interview with Boots from the Coup on Noz's blog. It is one of the most breath-taking and perceptive passages I've ever read regarding the difference(s) between "conscious" and "gangsta" rap:
Noz: I noticed before that you said "quote-unquote gangsta rap" and that reminded me of, I was listening to that round table at Stanford where krs got into it with that one reporter and i felt like you made some good points in that regard.
Boots: Whatever the perception is that the black folks listen to at the time is always called the ignorant music. If it's blues it's low brow. You know like when bebop came out they really considered it low brow.
One time a hero of mine, Hugh Masekela, I walked up to him and I asked him about playing on a record and there's kinda two issues - one the way that he discredited hip hop, he said "oh rap music? hip hop? oh I hate that shit, it reminds me of the twist in the 50s, that shits everywhere, it's disgusting." So now the twist, the way that I remember it, my parents liked it and they danced to it and it was black music and people listened to it. But to hear the twist talked about the same way someone might talk about Britney Spears or even the same way that somebody might talk about Ludacris or whatever is really kinda strange in the sense that blues and rhythm and blues was thought of by many jazz musicians to be not as advanced and to represent ignorance. What that is connected to is just the idea that's being sold to not connect with the black community. Even black folks connecting with and feeling united with the black community means that there's an understanding of oppression and exploitation and some analysis of the system. And if white people or other people that aren't black also identify in some way with the black community and what they're going through it could make someone think about the causes of exploitation and oppression. So the idea is to make it seem like there's this culture that is so totally useless and there's this culture that is so evil almost that it causes black people to act in a certain way. And in order to come up with that idea you have to really not listen to the lyrics of anything in the same way that our first song was called "gangsta rap from oakland."
Things are way more complicated today. Yeah, all kinds of different people have misogony in their lyrics, all kinds of different people have reactionary things in their lyrics. But there are so many good things that you can overlook if you take the attitude that all of one kind of music has no value. In the stuff that's called gangsta rap people are talking about the trials and tribulations that they had to go through just to survive in the system. And there are many times where the analysis in there is a lot more pointedly anti-authority than some songs that are considered conscious. There are many songs that are considered conscious that are basically just telling people that are listening that they don't have their head right. And there are many songs considered conscious in which people are talking about the fact that the system mistreats us. To me, those two things are very different. Some songs that are considered conscious could be made by the Sergeant on Soldier Story where he's like "all these niggers... they're backwards and they're bringing the race backwards" and there's a lot of people with that theme throughout their music that are considered conscious and it's not conscious at all. That's very much like a black republican.
TI has a song "Just Doin' My Job" that might not be considered conscious by people but he's breaking down the simple idea that in the system people are trying to have jobs [selling drugs] to survive and feed their families and that doesn't mean that you're a monster because you're doing that. You still have a love for life, but somehow you figure that you still have to do this job.
What's crazy is that throughout the time that we've been around I get all kind of rappers that come up to me that would be wrongly put into the gansgta category, but they're all saying "Yeah we talk about the same shit, we breaking that science down so they know what's goin on." What in their hearts, what they're doing is saying "This is how the world works, I am going to tell you something that makes it easier to survive." What that's coming from is a general love for the people. Some people will be like "your main problem is to watch out for some scandalous dude trying to steal your bike," but other people may have more information that tells them that it's deeper than that. The common denomonator is that when people are rapping, many times they feel that they're doing it for the listener. If people want that dialogue, what they add into the general dialouge to be more revolutionary, what we have to do is get some movements out there that are actually addressing some of these material issues. You're never gonna get somebody into a study group and teach them all kinds of stuff and then they start rapping different. Because they then won't be connected to reality.
We always hear stuff about songs like Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On?" and James Brown's "I'm Black and I'm Proud" and stuff like that, but that stuff came after there was already twenty years of big movements going on - civil rights movement, black power movement, anti-war movement - all sorts of movements going on and revolutions happening all around the world. And what people point to is that there were a few songs made in the 60's and early 70's that kinda said something. The Panthers had been asking James Brown, who, you know, was the P Diddy of the day, and they had been asking James Brown for years to do something for the people. It was only after H. Rap Brown basically hemmed him up that he made "I'm Black and I'm Proud." And this is after this big movement. And Marvin Gaye, after all of that stuff, he came back and his strongest statement was "What's Goin' On?" It was a question, it wasn't even telling people anything. It was just asking a question. So this is in the midst of this big movement, but now there is no big movement happening and people are still putting stuff into their songs. Let's say if someone is saying "this is how you make crack," they're not doing it just to make a hit record, because they know what makes a hit record - to have Mary J singing the hook or something like that - they're doing that because they think that they're giving people something. And that wasn't really around in the 60's and 70's for the most part. People were like "I need to make this kinda song cause it's gonna make some money" - "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" and all that type of stuff. Or let's say it like this, It wasn't happening as much as it is now, people are putting stuff into their raps that they think people need. Unfortunetly the movement hasn't been addressing people's needs enough so that there are more artists out there who have the idea that what people need is to make a movement.
The following is an excerpt taken from Noz's interview with Boots from the Coup on Noz's blog. It is one of the most breath-taking and perceptive passages I've ever read regarding the difference(s) between "conscious" and "gangsta" rap:
Noz: I noticed before that you said "quote-unquote gangsta rap" and that reminded me of, I was listening to that round table at Stanford where krs got into it with that one reporter and i felt like you made some good points in that regard.
Boots: Whatever the perception is that the black folks listen to at the time is always called the ignorant music. If it's blues it's low brow. You know like when bebop came out they really considered it low brow.
One time a hero of mine, Hugh Masekela, I walked up to him and I asked him about playing on a record and there's kinda two issues - one the way that he discredited hip hop, he said "oh rap music? hip hop? oh I hate that shit, it reminds me of the twist in the 50s, that shits everywhere, it's disgusting." So now the twist, the way that I remember it, my parents liked it and they danced to it and it was black music and people listened to it. But to hear the twist talked about the same way someone might talk about Britney Spears or even the same way that somebody might talk about Ludacris or whatever is really kinda strange in the sense that blues and rhythm and blues was thought of by many jazz musicians to be not as advanced and to represent ignorance. What that is connected to is just the idea that's being sold to not connect with the black community. Even black folks connecting with and feeling united with the black community means that there's an understanding of oppression and exploitation and some analysis of the system. And if white people or other people that aren't black also identify in some way with the black community and what they're going through it could make someone think about the causes of exploitation and oppression. So the idea is to make it seem like there's this culture that is so totally useless and there's this culture that is so evil almost that it causes black people to act in a certain way. And in order to come up with that idea you have to really not listen to the lyrics of anything in the same way that our first song was called "gangsta rap from oakland."
Things are way more complicated today. Yeah, all kinds of different people have misogony in their lyrics, all kinds of different people have reactionary things in their lyrics. But there are so many good things that you can overlook if you take the attitude that all of one kind of music has no value. In the stuff that's called gangsta rap people are talking about the trials and tribulations that they had to go through just to survive in the system. And there are many times where the analysis in there is a lot more pointedly anti-authority than some songs that are considered conscious. There are many songs that are considered conscious that are basically just telling people that are listening that they don't have their head right. And there are many songs considered conscious in which people are talking about the fact that the system mistreats us. To me, those two things are very different. Some songs that are considered conscious could be made by the Sergeant on Soldier Story where he's like "all these niggers... they're backwards and they're bringing the race backwards" and there's a lot of people with that theme throughout their music that are considered conscious and it's not conscious at all. That's very much like a black republican.
TI has a song "Just Doin' My Job" that might not be considered conscious by people but he's breaking down the simple idea that in the system people are trying to have jobs [selling drugs] to survive and feed their families and that doesn't mean that you're a monster because you're doing that. You still have a love for life, but somehow you figure that you still have to do this job.
What's crazy is that throughout the time that we've been around I get all kind of rappers that come up to me that would be wrongly put into the gansgta category, but they're all saying "Yeah we talk about the same shit, we breaking that science down so they know what's goin on." What in their hearts, what they're doing is saying "This is how the world works, I am going to tell you something that makes it easier to survive." What that's coming from is a general love for the people. Some people will be like "your main problem is to watch out for some scandalous dude trying to steal your bike," but other people may have more information that tells them that it's deeper than that. The common denomonator is that when people are rapping, many times they feel that they're doing it for the listener. If people want that dialogue, what they add into the general dialouge to be more revolutionary, what we have to do is get some movements out there that are actually addressing some of these material issues. You're never gonna get somebody into a study group and teach them all kinds of stuff and then they start rapping different. Because they then won't be connected to reality.
We always hear stuff about songs like Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On?" and James Brown's "I'm Black and I'm Proud" and stuff like that, but that stuff came after there was already twenty years of big movements going on - civil rights movement, black power movement, anti-war movement - all sorts of movements going on and revolutions happening all around the world. And what people point to is that there were a few songs made in the 60's and early 70's that kinda said something. The Panthers had been asking James Brown, who, you know, was the P Diddy of the day, and they had been asking James Brown for years to do something for the people. It was only after H. Rap Brown basically hemmed him up that he made "I'm Black and I'm Proud." And this is after this big movement. And Marvin Gaye, after all of that stuff, he came back and his strongest statement was "What's Goin' On?" It was a question, it wasn't even telling people anything. It was just asking a question. So this is in the midst of this big movement, but now there is no big movement happening and people are still putting stuff into their songs. Let's say if someone is saying "this is how you make crack," they're not doing it just to make a hit record, because they know what makes a hit record - to have Mary J singing the hook or something like that - they're doing that because they think that they're giving people something. And that wasn't really around in the 60's and 70's for the most part. People were like "I need to make this kinda song cause it's gonna make some money" - "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" and all that type of stuff. Or let's say it like this, It wasn't happening as much as it is now, people are putting stuff into their raps that they think people need. Unfortunetly the movement hasn't been addressing people's needs enough so that there are more artists out there who have the idea that what people need is to make a movement.
I was going to post this under the heading "Talib Kweli Diaper Rash = Nascent Black Republicanism"
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
From the Boots interview, some of these ideas should sound familiar by now:
N: Yeah, southern rap is completely influenced by 40's sound. B: Oh definitely, definitely. And even some of the Frisco [acts], a lot of the south is influenced by JT The Bigga Figga and stuff like that. There definitely is an influence - of course, Too Short.
Did JT ever go platinum? Can kids in the South today even name JT as someone they've even heard of? Hmmmm, but Boots still maintains that JT has played a role in influencing the South as far as the way Southern rap sounds today. How about that?
But the big dogs in the hyphy movement, let's say Mac Dre, I wouldn't say that it was sparse at all, because you listen to Genie of the Lamp, Thizzelle Washington, it's got guitars, bass, all that sort of thing. I think the sparse sound is more related to that Louisiana second line stuff, kinda a harder version of that. Like you listen to that one Droop-E produced that has Mister Fab and E-40 on it [Super Sick Wid It], that's like some New Orleans second line stuff. And it's really just part of the same funk tradition, it's just breaking it down a little bit more. And then one of the things that started it off to be on the radio is [Keak The Sneak's] "T-Shirt, Blue Jeans & Nikes" that's the regular bass stuff [hums bassline]. I think it is what it is and it's all funk. It's just that everybody has their different brands of it. On peoples albums some have more or less musicality. Some are more based on the rhythm and the drums and some are based on the music. On this [record] our music is based on something punching it up under the music. I mean I always liked basslines, basslines is my thing. I always want my records to be known for their basslines. I think that that's always gonna be a constant. You can listen to stuff that's filled with music a lot more times than the sparser stuff. And that's just my own personal feeling for my own stuff. I love the sparse stuff still. I don't like it for me rapping over it, but i like it for itself and I like the general aggressiveness that comes out from it. And there's always been that kind of music. What they're doing is ripping off of parts of black music that have always been there too. It's definitely in the same funk tradition that the bay area has. Hyphy is and so is my music. Different sides of the same coin. The thing is I'm always gonna do whatever I feel. And maybe that's worked against us.
New Orleans second line stuff? Part of the same funk tradition? Boots must be a complete loon. Isn't that right, soulstrut hatters?
But the big dogs in the hyphy movement, let's say Mac Dre, I wouldn't say that it was sparse at all, because you listen to Genie of the Lamp, Thizzelle Washington, it's got guitars, bass, all that sort of thing. I think the sparse sound is more related to that Louisiana second line stuff, kinda a harder version of that. Like you listen to that one Droop-E produced that has Mister Fab and E-40 on it [Super Sick Wid It], that's like some New Orleans second line stuff. And it's really just part of the same funk tradition, it's just breaking it down a little bit more. And then one of the things that started it off to be on the radio is [Keak The Sneak's] "T-Shirt, Blue Jeans & Nikes" that's the regular bass stuff [hums bassline]. I think it is what it is and it's all funk. It's just that everybody has their different brands of it. On peoples albums some have more or less musicality. Some are more based on the rhythm and the drums and some are based on the music. On this [record] our music is based on something punching it up under the music. I mean I always liked basslines, basslines is my thing. I always want my records to be known for their basslines. I think that that's always gonna be a constant. You can listen to stuff that's filled with music a lot more times than the sparser stuff. And that's just my own personal feeling for my own stuff. I love the sparse stuff still. I don't like it for me rapping over it, but i like it for itself and I like the general aggressiveness that comes out from it. And there's always been that kind of music. What they're doing is ripping off of parts of black music that have always been there too. It's definitely in the same funk tradition that the bay area has. Hyphy is and so is my music. Different sides of the same coin. The thing is I'm always gonna do whatever I feel. And maybe that's worked against us.
New Orleans second line stuff? Part of the same funk tradition? Boots must be a complete loon. Isn't that right, soulstrut hatters?
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
Maybe when Boots says it.
I would still like to know who you think you're arguing with. And I don't want to hear the names of that slim minority like Dizzybull that just plain hates rap.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
Maybe when Boots says it.
I would still like to know who you think you're arguing with. And I don't want to hear the names of that slim minority like Dizzybull that just plain hates rap.
I dunno anymore. Y'all all type alike to me.
On a serious note though...Noz, that was a great interview. All disagreements aside, I'm pleased to see you actually connecting with artists nowadays rather than just relying on your own retro-oriented take on things.
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
Maybe when Boots says it.
I would still like to know who you think you're arguing with. And I don't want to hear the names of that slim minority like Dizzybull that just plain hates rap.
hip-hop paranoid schitzophrenia helps keep this site alive
The following is an excerpt taken from Noz's interview with Boots from the Coup on Noz's blog. It is one of the most breath-taking and perceptive passages I've ever read regarding the difference(s) between "conscious" and "gangsta" rap:
Noz: I noticed before that you said "quote-unquote gangsta rap" and that reminded me of, I was listening to that round table at Stanford where krs got into it with that one reporter and i felt like you made some good points in that regard.
Boots: Whatever the perception is that the black folks listen to at the time is always called the ignorant music. If it's blues it's low brow. You know like when bebop came out they really considered it low brow.
One time a hero of mine, Hugh Masekela, I walked up to him and I asked him about playing on a record and there's kinda two issues - one the way that he discredited hip hop, he said "oh rap music? hip hop? oh I hate that shit, it reminds me of the twist in the 50s, that shits everywhere, it's disgusting." So now the twist, the way that I remember it, my parents liked it and they danced to it and it was black music and people listened to it. But to hear the twist talked about the same way someone might talk about Britney Spears or even the same way that somebody might talk about Ludacris or whatever is really kinda strange in the sense that blues and rhythm and blues was thought of by many jazz musicians to be not as advanced and to represent ignorance. What that is connected to is just the idea that's being sold to not connect with the black community. Even black folks connecting with and feeling united with the black community means that there's an understanding of oppression and exploitation and some analysis of the system. And if white people or other people that aren't black also identify in some way with the black community and what they're going through it could make someone think about the causes of exploitation and oppression. So the idea is to make it seem like there's this culture that is so totally useless and there's this culture that is so evil almost that it causes black people to act in a certain way. And in order to come up with that idea you have to really not listen to the lyrics of anything in the same way that our first song was called "gangsta rap from oakland."
Things are way more complicated today. Yeah, all kinds of different people have misogony in their lyrics, all kinds of different people have reactionary things in their lyrics. But there are so many good things that you can overlook if you take the attitude that all of one kind of music has no value. In the stuff that's called gangsta rap people are talking about the trials and tribulations that they had to go through just to survive in the system. And there are many times where the analysis in there is a lot more pointedly anti-authority than some songs that are considered conscious. There are many songs that are considered conscious that are basically just telling people that are listening that they don't have their head right. And there are many songs considered conscious in which people are talking about the fact that the system mistreats us. To me, those two things are very different. Some songs that are considered conscious could be made by the Sergeant on Soldier Story where he's like "all these niggers... they're backwards and they're bringing the race backwards" and there's a lot of people with that theme throughout their music that are considered conscious and it's not conscious at all. That's very much like a black republican.
TI has a song "Just Doin' My Job" that might not be considered conscious by people but he's breaking down the simple idea that in the system people are trying to have jobs [selling drugs] to survive and feed their families and that doesn't mean that you're a monster because you're doing that. You still have a love for life, but somehow you figure that you still have to do this job.
What's crazy is that throughout the time that we've been around I get all kind of rappers that come up to me that would be wrongly put into the gansgta category, but they're all saying "Yeah we talk about the same shit, we breaking that science down so they know what's goin on." What in their hearts, what they're doing is saying "This is how the world works, I am going to tell you something that makes it easier to survive." What that's coming from is a general love for the people. Some people will be like "your main problem is to watch out for some scandalous dude trying to steal your bike," but other people may have more information that tells them that it's deeper than that. The common denomonator is that when people are rapping, many times they feel that they're doing it for the listener. If people want that dialogue, what they add into the general dialouge to be more revolutionary, what we have to do is get some movements out there that are actually addressing some of these material issues. You're never gonna get somebody into a study group and teach them all kinds of stuff and then they start rapping different. Because they then won't be connected to reality.
We always hear stuff about songs like Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On?" and James Brown's "I'm Black and I'm Proud" and stuff like that, but that stuff came after there was already twenty years of big movements going on - civil rights movement, black power movement, anti-war movement - all sorts of movements going on and revolutions happening all around the world. And what people point to is that there were a few songs made in the 60's and early 70's that kinda said something. The Panthers had been asking James Brown, who, you know, was the P Diddy of the day, and they had been asking James Brown for years to do something for the people. It was only after H. Rap Brown basically hemmed him up that he made "I'm Black and I'm Proud." And this is after this big movement. And Marvin Gaye, after all of that stuff, he came back and his strongest statement was "What's Goin' On?" It was a question, it wasn't even telling people anything. It was just asking a question. So this is in the midst of this big movement, but now there is no big movement happening and people are still putting stuff into their songs. Let's say if someone is saying "this is how you make crack," they're not doing it just to make a hit record, because they know what makes a hit record - to have Mary J singing the hook or something like that - they're doing that because they think that they're giving people something. And that wasn't really around in the 60's and 70's for the most part. People were like "I need to make this kinda song cause it's gonna make some money" - "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" and all that type of stuff. Or let's say it like this, It wasn't happening as much as it is now, people are putting stuff into their raps that they think people need. Unfortunetly the movement hasn't been addressing people's needs enough so that there are more artists out there who have the idea that what people need is to make a movement.
Thank you. We needed that.
I think most strutters know that Whats Going On was written for Marvin's brother who was returning from Vietnam and finding that everything had change.
Since this seems to be the thread that won't go away, I'll admit I could have worded things better in my initial post. I was probably not...eh...in the clearest of mind states at the time. But that's besides the point. I think ultimately either you understand what I was getting at or you don't. This has been a topic that's been bugging me for a while now and it just sort of got thrown up. It's definitley an interesting subject that to me, bears discussion, but I actually agree with Guzzo in that this level of self analysis is probably best left alone as it's too much for some.
I would still like to know who you think you're arguing with. And I don't want to hear the names of that slim minority like Dizzybull that only likes Good Beats and Competent Lyricism.
Hey there, Ponce De Leon, You should try actually reading my posts some time. They're pretty good.
I would issue a challenge to you to find examples of me hating rap music, but we both know that would be a waste of time.
Comments
I think, to some degree, there's definitely a kind of vicarious excitement to listening to music that's so far out of one's personal experience (and this is hardly limited to White fans. As someone noted, it could just as easily apply to upper class Black listeners too, though I wouldn't equate the two just on the basis of class). I mean, the whole quip about "the exotic being erotic" is actually really, really true. There's definitely a fascination people have with "exotic" experiences.
Especially in America, the legacy of racism and particular Black/White relations (but not exclusive to them) has created, time and time again, a fascination amongst Whites for elements of Black culture/experience precisely because it seems exotic to them. Look at the history and continued legacy of minstrelsy, for example. I don't think anyone can divorce the popularity of hip-hop - which is, by far, the most Black and masculinized form of popular culture in the last quarter century - from a legacy of race relations, racism, White Supremacy, etc.
That said, just as I think someone claiming that White kids liking hip-hop has NOTHING to do with race would be bullshit, I'd cast equal doubt on the claim that it ONLY has to do with race. At a basic level, hip-hop - gangsta and otherwise - is appealing as a sonic force that hits you before you ever really listen to lyrics. I mean, "The Chronic" and "Straight Outta Compton" didn't become shit hot albums STRICTLY because of the gangsta talk. It was also because they featured beats that knocked your fucking head off. And given the topics that gangsta rappers tend to spit about, there's a good likelihood to find some "head knocking" beats on their albums more so than, I dunno, the Me Phi Me album.
Lastly, and this is a little tangent but it seems apropos to our discussion here...I got back from the EMP pop music conf in Seattle and saw Robert Christgau (aka one of the central godfathers of rock criticism in America) gave a really amazing paper about his ambivalence towards gangsta rap over the years yet finding something powerful and important about it in a time of personal crisis.
If I didn't note this, someone else would, be Xgau has been highly criticized for taking what seems to be a double standard: villifying Dr. Dre while praising Eminem even though, as some would argue, their content is quite similar but when a Black man does it, it's deplorable and when a white dude does it, it's genius. Not having read Xgau's critiques of Dre, I can't say myself but I think it's important to at least note this.
That said, what the gist of Xgau's paper was (and I'm trying to paraphrase carefully here) is that he's always had a discomfort with the violence and misogyny of gangsta rap yet, at what he calls "the middle distance" (which is to say, hearing gangsta rap but not really listening to it on a careful, lyrical level) he finds that he likes a lot of it and that makes sense: it's sonically appealing much of the time.
However, this past winter, he was listening to a lot of Lil Wayne on the recommendation of Chuck Eddy (Village Voice music editor just fired) and in the middle of this, his father died after a long time of being infirm and unhappy at his infirmity. And Xgau had a lot of pent up guilty and self-rage at his father's long sickness and then death and what he found was cathartic was actually listening to songs like "Problem Solver" on Weezy's album. As he put it, in the clear, direct violence of Weezy's song content, Xgau found an outlet for his own rage and need to vent and that, as surprising as it may sound for a 60 year old white rock critic to say it, Weezy's music helped him deal with the intense grief over losing his father. And it wasn't because Xgau lost himself in the fantasy - it was because, in that moment of crisis, he found that Lil Wayne's songs spoke an aggression that he himself needed to express. So in sense, it is a kind of vicariousness, but not for the sake of titillation but rather, because he felt Weezy was able to tap into something that Xgau himself was having trouble doing.
Suffice to say, you kind of had to be there to listen to it, but it was a pretty remarkable paper to witness and that's not to say someone couldn't critique it but I think Xgau was able to articulate an alternative explanation to why so many people like gangsta rap even when they didn't grow up under the conditions that created the underlying tensions expressed in gangsta rap.
Anyways, just wanted to share that.
Please. WHen did i say that i understood anything about the "real black experience"? I guess i can respect what alot of rappers are about, but if the music is not good to me im not gonna listen to it. I dont care particularly what "the streets are feeling". Honestly, i wouldnt know what the streets are feeling. Im in my apartment posting on the internet.
I really dont get where you think im "pontificating" on what black is. You are way out of leftfield with that one.
Is it something i said? Or are you just assuming all of that because im a white guy that likes gangster rap?
No, you're misunderstanding me (or my poor english). I don't mean advantage as in benefitial for them (the poor people of color), and it has nothing to do with street cred. Not at all. What I'm saying is that the whole picture of the urban ghetto, with mostly non-white inhabitants, has developed to be a dominating "definition" of a ghetto today, and out of that we get the stereotypes. What is happening I would say is a commodification of the black gangster rapper (the stereotype). It has becomed an object for more delights and entertainment, also for white people (as this whole thread started out on). I have a lot of taughts behind this, but I don't wanna cause a riot up in here
On the contrary, a white rapper would not very often succeed as a gangster rapper from the same "ghetto" because we would question his authencity - his realness. This because white people are predominating representations of the middle- or upperclass.
Race is all about our ability to think abstractively - our ability to categorize a black or white or latin og jewish or muslim person before we've even met them. It's difficult to not to, and that is why I believe this is important.
Is this really true? There is a writer or anyone else for that matter giving praise to Eminem out of one side of their mouth and "villifying" Dre out of the other side? I always had the understanding that most believed, that if Dre had never put Eminem on, that he would still be in Detroit never being anything more than an independent/underground MC.
I wonder. Does Dre even want any praising from the media or anyone else outside the black community?
Further more, I'd be willing to bet. That for every 10,000 white kids that love them some Eminem, there's one black kid. Where, if you took how many Black & White kids respected and liked Dre, you would have far more equal numbers.
Anyway, I say who cares. In the 80's I was listening to Schooly D & Ice T and in the late 80's I was checkin' for The Geto Boys. I didn't wanna be a gangster anymore than I wanted to be a drug king pin when I watched scareface 10 times in a row. I just wanted to enjoy the same things my peers did cause I felt (& found) something in the music, that I didn't feel (or find) anywhere else.
There are far bigger problems in the world right now than white kids wishing they were thugs (I wonder right now how many kids there are around the world wishing they were Italian when they watch Sopranos or the Gotti's. Wishing they could be anything close to that stereotype). And even if it was true, I'd rather be looking to the positives on what brings people together than things that are tearing everyone apart.
PS- Speaking of the Gotti's. I was watching some dumb celebrity singing show lastnight and the one Gotti kid's didn't even know who Bobby Brown was or had never heard of It's My Prerogative. That truly scares me. I weep for the future.
I wonder what the Black folks on this board think about the debate...
PS
Oliver that's amazing. I would like to read the paper if it's ever available. Great post.
Really, too much explicit crack and ho rap annoys the fuck out of me. I'll make a concession here and there for a good song, but for the most part it's gets the gasface from me.
But still, I love what I guess in this case you are calling thug rap. I'm white but my background is having to fistfight my way through late-70's/early-80's Creole New Orleans. In other words, I don't want to see Bush voted out of office. I want to see him strangled...to a dope beat.
Speaking of which, I've also done enough drugs in my day that I really appreciate drug-inspired music.
Anyway, there's an honest answer for you.
Wait... you mean to say... you are not FASCINATED by a bunch of white guys arguing about Black people???
I like the fact these artists create debates that bring attention to the situation of black people but I would trade a cultural debate over an actual socio-economical solution/debate anyday of the week. (this goes for N.America in general)
Tipper Gore vs Obama
And what "situation" would that be? Do Tell?
That pic is bugging me out.
Inequality, poverty, social injustice.
What "thug music" really address these issues?
I'm not listening to Fishscale or King for this.
I was simply saying debates over gangsta content on the most basic level ''yo, im just a journalist, telling tales from where i come from, this is how it is in the hood' bring attention to the tough situation of a majority of black people in america...at least slightly..until they get into that role model shit
Well, a point that I was reminded about in reading a story about gangsta rap FROM 1991 basically puts it this way: most gangsta rap talks about what it's like to pull the trigger, but not to catch the heat. If it's all about reality, then why isn't victimhood given equal attention as the people out there thuggin it and hustlin it? It's one thing to write a song about how to cook crack but you don't hear songs about what it's like to be strung the fuck out.
As noted - most of these dudes never lived the lives they're rhyming about anyways, so if they're inventing fiction, why is it that they're only focused on half the story?
To be sure, I'm still on the fence with this argument and in general, the argument about whether gangsta rap is truly influential in a negative way or not. There was another debate that broke out at the EMP conference I was at this weekend which addresses this issue: do kids think T.I. is urging them to go sell crack? Or do they understand "the trap game" as a metaphor for things besides how to bag up coke? The problem is: we don't have enough data to really prove the point.
Portraying oneself as vulnerable doesn't sell hiphop records.
Well, regardless of whether they understand the trap on a metaphorical level or not, T.I. has been pretty consistent in his position that it's not a desirable thing for people to get involved in and that he represents the exception in experiencing relative success with it and getting out. He's not urging anybody to sell crack. Just saying.
I was in the food service industry and got out. Shit was realer than real.
Noz: I noticed before that you said "quote-unquote gangsta rap" and that reminded me of, I was listening to that round table at Stanford where krs got into it with that one reporter and i felt like you made some good points in that regard.
Boots: Whatever the perception is that the black folks listen to at the time is always called the ignorant music. If it's blues it's low brow. You know like when bebop came out they really considered it low brow.
One time a hero of mine, Hugh Masekela, I walked up to him and I asked him about playing on a record and there's kinda two issues - one the way that he discredited hip hop, he said "oh rap music? hip hop? oh I hate that shit, it reminds me of the twist in the 50s, that shits everywhere, it's disgusting." So now the twist, the way that I remember it, my parents liked it and they danced to it and it was black music and people listened to it. But to hear the twist talked about the same way someone might talk about Britney Spears or even the same way that somebody might talk about Ludacris or whatever is really kinda strange in the sense that blues and rhythm and blues was thought of by many jazz musicians to be not as advanced and to represent ignorance. What that is connected to is just the idea that's being sold to not connect with the black community. Even black folks connecting with and feeling united with the black community means that there's an understanding of oppression and exploitation and some analysis of the system. And if white people or other people that aren't black also identify in some way with the black community and what they're going through it could make someone think about the causes of exploitation and oppression. So the idea is to make it seem like there's this culture that is so totally useless and there's this culture that is so evil almost that it causes black people to act in a certain way. And in order to come up with that idea you have to really not listen to the lyrics of anything in the same way that our first song was called "gangsta rap from oakland."
Things are way more complicated today. Yeah, all kinds of different people have misogony in their lyrics, all kinds of different people have reactionary things in their lyrics. But there are so many good things that you can overlook if you take the attitude that all of one kind of music has no value. In the stuff that's called gangsta rap people are talking about the trials and tribulations that they had to go through just to survive in the system. And there are many times where the analysis in there is a lot more pointedly anti-authority than some songs that are considered conscious. There are many songs that are considered conscious that are basically just telling people that are listening that they don't have their head right. And there are many songs considered conscious in which people are talking about the fact that the system mistreats us. To me, those two things are very different. Some songs that are considered conscious could be made by the Sergeant on Soldier Story where he's like "all these niggers... they're backwards and they're bringing the race backwards" and there's a lot of people with that theme throughout their music that are considered conscious and it's not conscious at all. That's very much like a black republican.
TI has a song "Just Doin' My Job" that might not be considered conscious by people but he's breaking down the simple idea that in the system people are trying to have jobs [selling drugs] to survive and feed their families and that doesn't mean that you're a monster because you're doing that. You still have a love for life, but somehow you figure that you still have to do this job.
What's crazy is that throughout the time that we've been around I get all kind of rappers that come up to me that would be wrongly put into the gansgta category, but they're all saying "Yeah we talk about the same shit, we breaking that science down so they know what's goin on." What in their hearts, what they're doing is saying "This is how the world works, I am going to tell you something that makes it easier to survive." What that's coming from is a general love for the people. Some people will be like "your main problem is to watch out for some scandalous dude trying to steal your bike," but other people may have more information that tells them that it's deeper than that. The common denomonator is that when people are rapping, many times they feel that they're doing it for the listener. If people want that dialogue, what they add into the general dialouge to be more revolutionary, what we have to do is get some movements out there that are actually addressing some of these material issues. You're never gonna get somebody into a study group and teach them all kinds of stuff and then they start rapping different. Because they then won't be connected to reality.
We always hear stuff about songs like Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On?" and James Brown's "I'm Black and I'm Proud" and stuff like that, but that stuff came after there was already twenty years of big movements going on - civil rights movement, black power movement, anti-war movement - all sorts of movements going on and revolutions happening all around the world. And what people point to is that there were a few songs made in the 60's and early 70's that kinda said something. The Panthers had been asking James Brown, who, you know, was the P Diddy of the day, and they had been asking James Brown for years to do something for the people. It was only after H. Rap Brown basically hemmed him up that he made "I'm Black and I'm Proud." And this is after this big movement. And Marvin Gaye, after all of that stuff, he came back and his strongest statement was "What's Goin' On?" It was a question, it wasn't even telling people anything. It was just asking a question. So this is in the midst of this big movement, but now there is no big movement happening and people are still putting stuff into their songs. Let's say if someone is saying "this is how you make crack," they're not doing it just to make a hit record, because they know what makes a hit record - to have Mary J singing the hook or something like that - they're doing that because they think that they're giving people something. And that wasn't really around in the 60's and 70's for the most part. People were like "I need to make this kinda song cause it's gonna make some money" - "Why Do Fools Fall In Love?" and all that type of stuff. Or let's say it like this, It wasn't happening as much as it is now, people are putting stuff into their raps that they think people need. Unfortunetly the movement hasn't been addressing people's needs enough so that there are more artists out there who have the idea that what people need is to make a movement.
I was going to post this under the heading "Talib Kweli Diaper Rash = Nascent Black Republicanism"
Did JT ever go platinum? Can kids in the South today even name JT as someone they've even heard of? Hmmmm, but Boots still maintains that JT has played a role in influencing the South as far as the way Southern rap sounds today. How about that?
New Orleans second line stuff? Part of the same funk tradition? Boots must be a complete loon. Isn't that right, soulstrut hatters?
Who are you arguing with, exactly? I think most people on here would agree with that.
Maybe when Boots says it.
I would still like to know who you think you're arguing with. And I don't want to hear the names of that slim minority like Dizzybull that just plain hates rap.
I dunno anymore. Y'all all type alike to me.
On a serious note though...Noz, that was a great interview. All disagreements aside, I'm pleased to see you actually connecting with artists nowadays rather than just relying on your own retro-oriented take on things.
hip-hop paranoid schitzophrenia helps keep this site alive
Thank you. We needed that.
I think most strutters know that Whats Going On was written for Marvin's brother who was returning from Vietnam and finding that everything had change.
Dan
post pics of your hood......
In other words...
Hey there, Ponce De Leon, You should try actually reading my posts some time. They're pretty good.
I would issue a challenge to you to find examples of me hating rap music, but we both know that would be a waste of time.