I think southerners celebrate the idea that they are slower and simpler than "city folk".
houston is(or was until recently) the 4th largest city in the nation
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
It's obvious you don't know me because I own the ALBUM "2 Live Is What We Are", and the 12s for joints such as "Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
then it's obvious that you're just hatting. "everlasting bass" is practically a mannie fresh beat.
Are cats reading? I'm making the point that I'm NOT some single-minded down-South hatter. I'm quite diverse in what I listen to, but my standards for what I like has remained intact over the years. Good grief!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think what Noz was pointing out is that your standards HAVE changed and you're jsut talking out the side of your neck right now.
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Taking skill to produce and being intellectually complex are two very different things, and if you are going to try to argue that disco is somehow more intellectually complex than Texas hip-hop then I am going to assume you don't know much about either.
We could continue to argue the point for days, but I think at this point it's pretty clear that you've decided not to give this music it's due, and it's pretty clear to me that you haven't spent enough time listening to it to even speak with authority about its merit or complexity.
No disrespect, I like arguing about music too.
Are you reading my posts? My point was that so-called simple music, like disco, funk, and soul, aren't so simple. That's all. You've formed your opinion of what I'm saying outside of the ACTUAL content and intended messages of my posts. That's rather close-minded and arrogant of you, wouldn't you say?
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
We're not arguing whether or not something has underlying complexity; you haven't given southern hip-hop the credit of having underlying complexity, whether it's musical, conceptual, or lyrical, yet you're going to try to argue that disco arrangments merit it a complex music? Or take Parliament as a sterling example of funk music while ignoring the myriad records that consist of little more than a chicken scratch guitar lick and a heavy downbeat? You're picking and choosing examples that justify your argument but, in the end, leave it more full of holes because it presents these huge contradictions that you refuse to deal with.
Look, James Brown's best funk numbers are deceivingly simple, but took immense discipline, technique, and feeling to execute. I don't know why you wouldn't extend the same argument to southern rap artists. You say you like 2 Live Crew, and I do too; I like it because the drum programming is incredible. It seems like simple club music but the production is incredible and not as simple as it appears. Do you not hear the production value in "Still Tippin'" or the skill that is required to produce a good screw CD? I have a feeling you probably haven't listened to enough of the stuff to speak with authority.
I think southerners celebrate the idea that they are slower and simpler than "city folk".
houston is(or was until recently) the 4th largest city in the nation
OK, good point. City Folk was a bad choice. 'Non-southern Folk' may have been better. They keep playing that god-awful blue collar comedy tour on Comedy Central, and the whole them of that seems to be 'we're slow southerners and proud of it!" Same thing with country music. And I notice the same thing with south rap music. Its like defiance or something I guess. You can't tell me that this isn't true because I see and hear it all the time!
It's obvious you don't know me because I own the ALBUM "2 Live Is What We Are", and the 12s for joints such as "Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
then it's obvious that you're just hatting. "everlasting bass" is practically a mannie fresh beat.
Are cats reading? I'm making the point that I'm NOT some single-minded down-South hatter. I'm quite diverse in what I listen to, but my standards for what I like has remained intact over the years. Good grief!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think what Noz was pointing out is that your standards HAVE changed and you're jsut talking out the side of your neck right now.
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think people like Mannie's beats (Mannie himself has been around forever) precisely BECAUSE they sound old school. If you recall I have argued with Phill several times that Mannie is dope in the same way Kurtis Mantronik was.
Don't flatter yourself... you guys are the ones that sound ignorant.
It's obvious you don't know me because I own the ALBUM "2 Live Is What We Are", and the 12s for joints such as "Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
then it's obvious that you're just hatting. "everlasting bass" is practically a mannie fresh beat.
Are cats reading? I'm making the point that I'm NOT some single-minded down-South hatter. I'm quite diverse in what I listen to, but my standards for what I like has remained intact over the years. Good grief!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think what Noz was pointing out is that your standards HAVE changed and you're jsut talking out the side of your neck right now.
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
So you're now saying that Mannie Fresh DOES fit a standard for something that you consider good music, but you refuse to acknowledge that because you're a hatter.
what historical knowledge are we missing?
You sound like a straight up hypocrite. You seriously don't even warrant arguing with.
i still have no idea why people think slow AUTOMATICALLY equates to not complex.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Taking skill to produce and being intellectually complex are two very different things, and if you are going to try to argue that disco is somehow more intellectually complex than Texas hip-hop then I am going to assume you don't know much about either.
We could continue to argue the point for days, but I think at this point it's pretty clear that you've decided not to give this music it's due, and it's pretty clear to me that you haven't spent enough time listening to it to even speak with authority about its merit or complexity.
No disrespect, I like arguing about music too.
Are you reading my posts? My point was that so-called simple music, like disco, funk, and soul, aren't so simple. That's all. You've formed your opinion of what I'm saying outside of the ACTUAL content and intended messages of my posts. That's rather close-minded and arrogant of you, wouldn't you say?
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
We're not arguing whether or not something has underlying complexity; you haven't given southern hip-hop the credit of having underlying complexity, whether it's musical, conceptual, or lyrical, yet you're going to try to argue that disco arrangments merit it a complex music? Or take Parliament as a sterling example of funk music while ignoring the myriad records that consist of little more than a chicken scratch guitar lick and a heavy downbeat? You're picking and choosing examples that justify your argument but, in the end, leave it more full of holes because it presents these huge contradictions that you refuse to deal with.
Look, James Brown's best funk numbers are deceivingly simple, but took immense discipline, technique, and feeling to execute. I don't know why you wouldn't extend the same argument to southern rap artists. You say you like 2 Live Crew, and I do too; I like it because the drum programming is incredible. It seems like simple club music but the production is incredible and not as simple as it appears. Do you not hear the production value in "Still Tippin'" or the skill that is required to produce a good screw CD? I have a feeling you probably haven't listened to enough of the stuff to speak with authority.
Jonny,
You're missing a key ingredient in my issue (or claim). I bought the early 2 Live Crew because of the beats AND rhymes. I thought Brother Marquis had flows, relatively speaking (Fresh Kid Ice was the weak link, not uncommon with two MCs), and the beats and cuts were ill (Mr. Mixx was crazy!!!). This is the same standard I've applied for decades. Using "Still Tippin'" as an example, the beat was alright, but the rhymes were butt. That's my opinion. Sorry, if I don't agree with the masses, but I never have. It's me!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
It's obvious you don't know me because I own the ALBUM "2 Live Is What We Are", and the 12s for joints such as "Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
then it's obvious that you're just hatting. "everlasting bass" is practically a mannie fresh beat.
Are cats reading? I'm making the point that I'm NOT some single-minded down-South hatter. I'm quite diverse in what I listen to, but my standards for what I like has remained intact over the years. Good grief!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think what Noz was pointing out is that your standards HAVE changed and you're jsut talking out the side of your neck right now.
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think people like Mannie's beats (Mannie himself has been around forever) precisely BECAUSE they sound old school. If you recall I have argued with Phill several times that Mannie is dope in the same way Kurtis Mantronik was.
Don't flatter yourself... you guys are the ones that sound ignorant.
Jonny, you can't be serious, can you? Please post a link of anything from Mannie Fresh that gets remotely close to the programming on "Bass Machine" (as an example) from nearly 20 years ago, mind you. This applies to you too, Cashless. You gotta be kidding!!!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
It's obvious you don't know me because I own the ALBUM "2 Live Is What We Are", and the 12s for joints such as "Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
then it's obvious that you're just hatting. "everlasting bass" is practically a mannie fresh beat.
Are cats reading? I'm making the point that I'm NOT some single-minded down-South hatter. I'm quite diverse in what I listen to, but my standards for what I like has remained intact over the years. Good grief!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think what Noz was pointing out is that your standards HAVE changed and you're jsut talking out the side of your neck right now.
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I think people like Mannie's beats (Mannie himself has been around forever) precisely BECAUSE they sound old school. If you recall I have argued with Phill several times that Mannie is dope in the same way Kurtis Mantronik was.
Don't flatter yourself... you guys are the ones that sound ignorant.
Jonny, you can't be serious, can you? Please post a link of anything from Mannie Fresh that gets remotely close to the programming on "Bass Machine" (as an example) from nearly 20 years ago, mind you. This applies to you too, Cashless. You gotta be kidding!!!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
nah, I'm not gonna dig through dude's UNRELEASED discography for that. But I CAN post tons of Mannie Fresh's beat that sound almost exactly like these selected cuts.
"Doggin' the Wax" b/w "Six in the Morning", "I'm Cool", "Everlasting Bass", "Domination" (MCs of Rap), to name a few.
i find it hard to imagine someone saying that using chained drum machines, live instruments, and multiple synths is less complex than throwing some sampled drums under a loop, but there's a first time for everything.
Stacks, your argument has morphed so many times it's just not tenable anymore. Stick to the script - southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
THAT REAL SCHITT!
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
i find it hard to imagine someone saying that using chained drum machines, live instruments, and multiple synths is less complex than throwing some sampled drums under a loop, but there's a first time for everything.
Stacks, your argument has morphed so many times it's just not tenable anymore. Stick to the script - southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
Uh, originally, 2 Live Crew had 2 MCs. I said, and I'll say AGAIN, I like rap music with nice rhymes and beats (in my OPINION of what "nice" constitutes). I did not dismiss ALL southern music, as I said (in agreement with Saigon about 4 pages ago). I said that I don't like the southern stuff that is getting all the airplay, and I have southern (or southern-sounding) stuff that I do like. I don't understand the misunderstanding. I guess it is that you're take on my opinions are blanketed and close-minded, and people are not processing my points. I have a standard I apply to music regardless of where it's from (I mushed NY cats too in an earlier post because they're doing wack shit), but I'm not moved by what cats are jocking on here. The stuff I like tends to have some complexity involved in it (or course, there are exceptions), but then again, that's what I like in all genres of music from rock to gospel. Why do you think I like the Mighty Clouds of Joy more than The Little Wonders (even though "Have You Stopped to Pray this Morning" was my song)? The instrumentation and musical arrangements of the former are better in my OPINION than the latter.
i find it hard to imagine someone saying that using chained drum machines, live instruments, and multiple synths is less complex than throwing some sampled drums under a loop, but there's a first time for everything.
Stacks, your argument has morphed so many times it's just not tenable anymore. Stick to the script - southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
Uh, originally, 2 Live Crew had 2 MCs.
I was counting Luke too...
And to me, yes, you are closed minded. You have picked a small handfull of acts that you feel are "acceptable" from the south, but continue to diss the southern "sound" which you feel is too simple. You talk about the acts that cats prop up on this site, but I would challenge you to name any such "acts" you speak of; every time I've listed southern artists you've said "well I like most of those". So which is it then? You and likeminded others have created this southern strawman that is ruining hip-hop, but your statements belie any real knowledge of southern stuff.
I kinda prickle up to your argument, it just sounds to me like when people look down on less sophisticated members of their own family because they're "country" or "uneducated"...
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
i find it hard to imagine someone saying that using chained drum machines, live instruments, and multiple synths is less complex than throwing some sampled drums under a loop, but there's a first time for everything.
Stacks, your argument has morphed so many times it's just not tenable anymore. Stick to the script - southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
Uh, originally, 2 Live Crew had 2 MCs.
I was counting Luke too...
And to me, yes, you are closed minded. You have picked a small handfull of acts that you feel are "acceptable" from the south, but continue to diss the southern "sound" which you feel is too simple. You talk about the acts that cats prop up on this site, but I would challenge you to name any such "acts" you speak of; every time I've listed southern artists you've said "well I like most of those". So which is it then? You and likeminded others have created this southern strawman that is ruining hip-hop, but your statements belie any real knowledge of southern stuff.
I kinda prickle up to your argument, it just sounds to me like when people look down on less sophisticated members of their own family because they're "country" or "uneducated"...
Naw, it's not simply "hip-hop elitism", but that aesthetic just doesn't cater to my tastes. To show this point, I used a gospel analogy in my last post. The usual cats blown up on here are Paul Wall, Mike Jones, Lil' Wayne, Mannie Fresh, etc., but their stuff doesn't appeal to me for said reasons, and I have listened to it, trying to see what you guys see. I just don't see it. I kinda wish I did, because this is what predominates in the record store (in the rap section, anyway). I could walk away with more than R&B CDs and retro joints.
i will have to say that if you are unable to separate the lyrics from the beats, you are probably not going to like a lot of rap stuff that is coming out. i am all about delivery nowadays and if you make some dumb dumb dumb shit sound good then i'm digging it. a good example of this would be camron. at first listen, you're all what the fuck did dude just say? second listen, you catch some shit you never heard before and then on the third listen, you're like "this shit is dope!"
you may not get deep lyrics or whatever but if you cannot appreciate many of these rapper's delivery, flow, cadance, or any of that shit, then i don't know.
It does seem funny to me though that people who shit on southern rap anywhere from 5 to 10 years ago are all of a sudden on the bandwagon, even though it hasn't changed since then. That to me is a little suspect. And I'm not directing this at faux or jonny or anybody, because I have no idea what you liked 10 years ago. This is more of an observation in general.
rap music has definitely downplayed the role of "MCin'" in terms of mic skills, clever lyrics, and delivery. This probably explains why I don't feel down south stuff, in that it largely seems stupid and infantile to me. Back in the day, even if a NY MC wasn't saying "world changing" shit, at least he said it in a clever, interesting way. Sorry, but MC's saying dumb shit in a simple way will never ever be appealing to me.
mc's saying dumb shit in a simple way is not striclty a down south phenomenon
"Top down and im at it again It's hot now and i'm at it to win (you heard me) Who want it with me Nobody wanna it with me Oh im so fly Oh Mami come n get me Sit it down Back up Bring it on back up Move it till you feel something hard on your back"
It does seem funny to me though that people who shit on southern rap anywhere from 5 to 10 years ago are all of a sudden on the bandwagon, even though it hasn't changed since then. That to me is a little suspect. And I'm not directing this at faux or jonny or anybody, because I have no idea what you liked 10 years ago. This is more of an observation in general.
First of all, its changed alot. And secondly i could care less what you think about southern music. I was objecting to your point about people from the south being stupid or "slow" or whatever you were saying.
WAIT i thought he was saying slow as in having drank a lot of porple drank and doing things slowly. like how the music is how they say chopped up and screwed. i love that new sound - its so cool. are we talking about slow as in retarded? imma read this thread now.
umm people from the south are slow... they do everything slow. Living there for three years they are on a different time table of when to be, how to get, or when they arrive to something... It's always been a slower way of life, hence the appeal of slower timing in the southern rap music. LA is the same way too, compared to east coast cities, much slower, but that slower trunk rattling rap appeals to people out here too, just because of that.
I think ya'll are blowing Stacks point out of the water. He is just being picky about what he listens to from the south from years of listening to music in general. I am the same way with everything I listen too, whether its southern rap, west coast, east coast, funk, soul etc. You are trying to argue that because he says for the most part he is not feeling about 90% of southern rap he is wrong. He isn't becuase it's his "musical journey".
I don't get most of the hype around the jawns collectors are raer, because most of the time they don't appeal to me. It doesn't sound like he is writing off the whole sub genre, but he is mroe saying he has heard alot of it and doesn't get most of it, and I can understand that. Hell most people, don't get it unless you are living there.
PS. Ohio is not southern, but Ohio is influenced bby both east west, north south, so it tends to mimick other areas' sounds. I have no idea what is going on there now, but it used to be all over the map depending on the city.
It doesn't sound like he is writing off the whole sub genre, but he is mroe saying he has heard alot of it and doesn't get most of it, and I can understand that. Hell most people, don't get it unless you are living there.
actually he said this:
But, rap music has definitely downplayed the role of "MCin'" in terms of mic skills, clever lyrics, and delivery. This probably explains why I don't feel down south stuff, in that it largely seems stupid and infantile to me. Back in the day, even if a NY MC wasn't saying "world changing" shit, at least he said it in a clever, interesting way. Sorry, but MC's saying dumb shit in a simple way will never ever be appealing to me.
and this:
That's right, and at least they have (or had) flows better than those simple-Simon southern flows that are predominate these days. Why does popular have to equal stupid or simplistic? I guess it just reflects the (general lack of) intellect of the American populace nowadays (check the latest ranking of nations educationally according to the National Assessment of Educational Progress).
and he hasn't indicated anywhere that he's heard anything besides "still tippin," a few mannie fresh beats and mike jones' name.
I suppose that just because I can't tell the difference doesn't mean it hasn't changed. Triple hi-hats and 808s just sound the same to me. Thats my problem more than yours I guess.
And secondly i could care less what you think about southern music.
I'll assume by southern music you mean southern rap, and not country, or whatever else they make.
I was objecting to your point about people from the south being stupid or "slow" or whatever you were saying.
I don't think I said that, but I better double check before I defend myself. Actually, I should have done that before I replied.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
It doesn't sound like he is writing off the whole sub genre, but he is mroe saying he has heard alot of it and doesn't get most of it, and I can understand that. Hell most people, don't get it unless you are living there.
actually he said this:
But, rap music has definitely downplayed the role of "MCin'" in terms of mic skills, clever lyrics, and delivery. This probably explains why I don't feel down south stuff, in that it largely seems stupid and infantile to me. Back in the day, even if a NY MC wasn't saying "world changing" shit, at least he said it in a clever, interesting way. Sorry, but MC's saying dumb shit in a simple way will never ever be appealing to me.
and this:
That's right, and at least they have (or had) flows better than those simple-Simon southern flows that are predominate these days. Why does popular have to equal stupid or simplistic? I guess it just reflects the (general lack of) intellect of the American populace nowadays (check the latest ranking of nations educationally according to the National Assessment of Educational Progress).
and he hasn't indicated anywhere that he's heard anything besides "still tippin," a few mannie fresh beats and mike jones' name.
It's obvious that 33third is reading objectively and perceptively. He very eloquently summarized my points. Dizzy's hittin' on one of them as well, the "bandwagon" argument. Thanks!!!!
OK I just reread my post and I didn't call southerners stupid.
I think southerners celebrate the idea that they are slower and simpler than "city folk".
This is referring to what I said before about country music and blue collar comedy and that Larry The Cable Guy and shit. The whole "proud to be a redneck hillbilly" thing.
Obviously country bumpkins enjoy that stuff, and thats fine.
hillbillies like hillbilly music. Germans like German music. Japanese like Japanese music. Thats fine.
I just wish there was something else on TV or the radio for the rest of us that got past 6th grade and don't consider an ice grill a "dental plan".
I also don't listen to Brittney Spears because I got past the sixth grade and don't consider big tits "natural beauty".
I also don't listen to Limp Bizkit or Korn because I got past the sixth grade and don't consider driving cars in a circle a "sport".
I am not the target demographic here. If you ask me, a song about teeth is just as stupid as pop punk/rock rap/boy band/ fake titty rnb, but nobody is sticking up for those either. But if people like it, then fine.
But it sucks that media outlets for rap (or any other) music are defined very narrowly, leaving the rest of it in the dark.
And finally, I would like to admit that I do have a strong bias against the south, and thats something that I'm actually kind of ashamed to admit, but I'll save that thread for tomorrow.
DO YOU NOW SEE, BROTHA STACKS, THAT THESE IDOITS ARE NOT EVEN WORTHY OF ENGAGING IN CONVERSATION WITH? YOU ARE ABOVE THEM. LET THEM ROT IN THEIR OWN FECES AND STEP OVER THEM AS YOU WALK AWAY, SON, DRIPPING URINE ON THEM AS YOU DO SO. THEY HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED YOUR POINTS AND TWISTED IT TO FIT THEIR OWN BITCH ASS AGENDAS. THEY KNOW IN THEIR HEARTS THAT THEY CAN NEVER BE THAT REAL SCHITT???[/b] SO THEY ATTEMPT TO MOCK IT IN THEIR IMPUDENCE AND ARROGANCE. THESE PEASEANTS SHOULD BE KNEELING TO KISS YOUR FEET FOR THE WISDOM WHICH YOU HAVE BESTOWED UPON THEIR WORTHLESS EXISTENCE. I WILL RIGHT NOW SAY IN BOLD LETTERS THAT IN MY OPINION THE FIELD MOB IS SURPRISINGLY DOPE AS FUCK ON THAT "GEORGIA" SONG AND I LOVE THAT SCHITT[/b] BUT THEY WILL IGNORE IT, JUST AS THEY IGNORED YOUR POINTS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. CIVILIZED DISCUSSION WITH THE LIKES OF THESE TRANSVESTITE MONGERS IS USELESS- THE TIME IS NEARING FOR THEM TO BE DEALT WITH IN A MUCH MORE PAINFUL MANNER. THE HAND OF VENGEANCE AWAITS YOU, HOES...
YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE MANY MORE WARNINGS. TAKE HEED WHILE YOUR GENITALIA, WHAT LITTLE THERE MAY BE, IS STILL INTACT.
Comments
Nope, most stuff was drum machine-based then, anyway. What a ludicrous statement!!! This only points out that Mannie Fresh isn't doing anything so new then, huh? I guess there's not much historical knowledge on this board. I totally feel Phill's frustration with the 'Strut contingent on such topics. I guess cats just don't know.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
We're not arguing whether or not something has underlying complexity; you haven't given southern hip-hop the credit of having underlying complexity, whether it's musical, conceptual, or lyrical, yet you're going to try to argue that disco arrangments merit it a complex music? Or take Parliament as a sterling example of funk music while ignoring the myriad records that consist of little more than a chicken scratch guitar lick and a heavy downbeat? You're picking and choosing examples that justify your argument but, in the end, leave it more full of holes because it presents these huge contradictions that you refuse to deal with.
Look, James Brown's best funk numbers are deceivingly simple, but took immense discipline, technique, and feeling to execute. I don't know why you wouldn't extend the same argument to southern rap artists. You say you like 2 Live Crew, and I do too; I like it because the drum programming is incredible. It seems like simple club music but the production is incredible and not as simple as it appears. Do you not hear the production value in "Still Tippin'" or the skill that is required to produce a good screw CD? I have a feeling you probably haven't listened to enough of the stuff to speak with authority.
OK, good point. City Folk was a bad choice. 'Non-southern Folk' may have been better. They keep playing that god-awful blue collar comedy tour on Comedy Central, and the whole them of that seems to be 'we're slow southerners and proud of it!" Same thing with country music. And I notice the same thing with south rap music. Its like defiance or something I guess. You can't tell me that this isn't true because I see and hear it all the time!
I think people like Mannie's beats (Mannie himself has been around forever) precisely BECAUSE they sound old school. If you recall I have argued with Phill several times that Mannie is dope in the same way Kurtis Mantronik was.
Don't flatter yourself... you guys are the ones that sound ignorant.
So you're now saying that Mannie Fresh DOES fit a standard for something that you consider good music, but you refuse to acknowledge that because you're a hatter.
what historical knowledge are we missing?
You sound like a straight up hypocrite. You seriously don't even warrant arguing with.
i still have no idea why people think slow AUTOMATICALLY equates to not complex.
Jonny,
You're missing a key ingredient in my issue (or claim). I bought the early 2 Live Crew because of the beats AND rhymes. I thought Brother Marquis had flows, relatively speaking (Fresh Kid Ice was the weak link, not uncommon with two MCs), and the beats and cuts were ill (Mr. Mixx was crazy!!!). This is the same standard I've applied for decades. Using "Still Tippin'" as an example, the beat was alright, but the rhymes were butt. That's my opinion. Sorry, if I don't agree with the masses, but I never have. It's me!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Jonny, you can't be serious, can you?
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
nah, I'm not gonna dig through dude's UNRELEASED discography for that. But I CAN post tons of Mannie Fresh's beat that sound almost exactly like these selected cuts.
but then again, like I said, you're not worth it.
Stacks, your argument has morphed so many times it's just not tenable anymore. Stick to the script - southern music is "simple simon", right? The Cella Dwellas were more complex than "Still Tippin", right? 2 Live Crew was dope because 1 (out of 3) MCs "had flows", but southern hip-hop can be written off because most of the MCs are not intellectually challenging?
THAT REAL SCHITT!
Uh, originally, 2 Live Crew had 2 MCs. I said, and I'll say AGAIN, I like rap music with nice rhymes and beats (in my OPINION of what "nice" constitutes). I did not dismiss ALL southern music, as I said (in agreement with Saigon about 4 pages ago). I said that I don't like the southern stuff that is getting all the airplay, and I have southern (or southern-sounding) stuff that I do like. I don't understand the misunderstanding. I guess it is that you're take on my opinions are blanketed and close-minded, and people are not processing my points. I have a standard I apply to music regardless of where it's from (I mushed NY cats too in an earlier post because they're doing wack shit), but I'm not moved by what cats are jocking on here. The stuff I like tends to have some complexity involved in it (or course, there are exceptions), but then again, that's what I like in all genres of music from rock to gospel. Why do you think I like the Mighty Clouds of Joy more than The Little Wonders (even though "Have You Stopped to Pray this Morning" was my song)? The instrumentation and musical arrangements of the former are better in my OPINION than the latter.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I was counting Luke too...
And to me, yes, you are closed minded. You have picked a small handfull of acts that you feel are "acceptable" from the south, but continue to diss the southern "sound" which you feel is too simple. You talk about the acts that cats prop up on this site, but I would challenge you to name any such "acts" you speak of; every time I've listed southern artists you've said "well I like most of those". So which is it then? You and likeminded others have created this southern strawman that is ruining hip-hop, but your statements belie any real knowledge of southern stuff.
I kinda prickle up to your argument, it just sounds to me like when people look down on less sophisticated members of their own family because they're "country" or "uneducated"...
Naw, it's not simply "hip-hop elitism", but that aesthetic just doesn't cater to my tastes. To show this point, I used a gospel analogy in my last post. The usual cats blown up on here are Paul Wall, Mike Jones, Lil' Wayne, Mannie Fresh, etc., but their stuff doesn't appeal to me for said reasons, and I have listened to it, trying to see what you guys see. I just don't see it. I kinda wish I did, because this is what predominates in the record store (in the rap section, anyway). I could walk away with more than R&B CDs and retro joints.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
you may not get deep lyrics or whatever but if you cannot appreciate many of these rapper's delivery, flow, cadance, or any of that shit, then i don't know.
i think theres even some breakbeat raer in there!
mc's saying dumb shit in a simple way is not striclty a down south phenomenon
"Top down and im at it again
It's hot now and i'm at it to win
(you heard me)
Who want it with me
Nobody wanna it with me
Oh im so fly
Oh Mami come n get me
Sit it down
Back up
Bring it on back up
Move it till you feel something hard on your back"
First of all, its changed alot. And secondly i could care less what you think about southern music. I was objecting to your point about people from the south being stupid or "slow" or whatever you were saying.
i thought he was saying slow as in having drank a lot of porple drank and doing things slowly. like how the music is how they say chopped up and screwed. i love that new sound - its so cool. are we talking about slow as in retarded? imma read this thread now.
I think ya'll are blowing Stacks point out of the water. He is just being picky about what he listens to from the south from years of listening to music in general. I am the same way with everything I listen too, whether its southern rap, west coast, east coast, funk, soul etc. You are trying to argue that because he says for the most part he is not feeling about 90% of southern rap he is wrong. He isn't becuase it's his "musical journey".
I don't get most of the hype around the jawns collectors are raer, because most of the time they don't appeal to me. It doesn't sound like he is writing off the whole sub genre, but he is mroe saying he has heard alot of it and doesn't get most of it, and I can understand that. Hell most people, don't get it unless you are living there.
PS. Ohio is not southern, but Ohio is influenced bby both east west, north south, so it tends to mimick other areas' sounds. I have no idea what is going on there now, but it used to be all over the map depending on the city.
ok steppin out to get a beer folls.
actually he said this:
and this:
and he hasn't indicated anywhere that he's heard anything besides "still tippin," a few mannie fresh beats and mike jones' name.
I suppose that just because I can't tell the difference doesn't mean it hasn't changed. Triple hi-hats and 808s just sound the same to me. Thats my problem more than yours I guess.
I'll assume by southern music you mean southern rap, and not country, or whatever else they make.
I don't think I said that, but I better double check before I defend myself. Actually, I should have done that before I replied.
It's obvious that 33third is reading objectively and perceptively. He very eloquently summarized my points. Dizzy's hittin' on one of them as well, the "bandwagon" argument. Thanks!!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
This is referring to what I said before about country music and blue collar comedy and that Larry The Cable Guy and shit. The whole "proud to be a redneck hillbilly" thing.
hillbillies like hillbilly music. Germans like German music. Japanese like Japanese music. Thats fine.
I also don't listen to Brittney Spears because I got past the sixth grade and don't consider big tits "natural beauty".
I also don't listen to Limp Bizkit or Korn because I got past the sixth grade and don't consider driving cars in a circle a "sport".
I am not the target demographic here. If you ask me, a song about teeth is just as stupid as pop punk/rock rap/boy band/ fake titty rnb, but nobody is sticking up for those either. But if people like it, then fine.
But it sucks that media outlets for rap (or any other) music are defined very narrowly, leaving the rest of it in the dark.
And finally, I would like to admit that I do have a strong bias against the south, and thats something that I'm actually kind of ashamed to admit, but I'll save that thread for tomorrow.
YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE MANY MORE WARNINGS. TAKE HEED WHILE YOUR GENITALIA, WHAT LITTLE THERE MAY BE, IS STILL INTACT.