EL_Mez my response was commenting on Thes's statement about the latest home recording technology in relation to non-major label recording artist, which J Dupri has nothing to do with. You erroneously assumed I was talking about Hip Hop marketing for the entire industry, not so. I was merely saying people need to be more innovative so that their work stands out, they don???t necessarily have to spend more on marketing. With the prior restriction of limited recording resources now being obliterated with the current technological advances anyone with an idea now can more easily participate. What this comes down to is since there are far too many wack albums available quality artist need to find new ways (different sounds, new song structures, different song concepts, new performances for their live shows or etc.) for them to stand out as opposed to utilizing existing dated formula. That???s why a great group like Gangstarr???s current material sounds dated. Heads need to updated their formula; change is always good.
A good example of how new technology has helped to make quality music is the Foreign Exchange album. It was created using fruity loops (and other hardware/software ia assume), the beats and vocals were swapped amongst the collaborators using Fedex and the internet. The result was a solid soul-dusted Hip Hop album that has gotten a lot of media exposure. Or what about Madlib???s contributions to the Jaylib and Madvillian projects (or any of the lastest projects for that matter) which were done on that wack SP-303 and recorded to cassette tape. Granted the sound quality is suspect but the ideas and results were great (assumes some heads will disagree with me on this.) My main point quality hip hop is being created on relatively inexpensive equipment. Home studios are not killing the music, musician just need to develop new ideas.
The new advancement just levels the playing field, and should prompt existing artists to evolve.
I definitely agree with what you said about Pro Tools - cats cutting and pasting choruses requires much less skill and dedication.
Just because people are lazy don't blame it on Pro-tools. Pro-tools doesn't have screen prompt telling the artist while they are recording to cut and paste instead of coming wit it live. I will agree with the notion that people have become lazier with the new technology, but that is artist fault not technology. The new technology possibly shows us the listener who really has a great work ethic and who is a lethargic noodle head.
Don't blame technology for laziness of some users.
By the way, I don't want to make it sound like I'm picking on any one label or even family of labels. there were a LOT of 12"s that qualified for "not good look status, including stuff produced by Primo (I'm sorry Phill but dude's recent output has been ASS) and Pete Rock (see previous comment). I usually make it point to keep LPs since, hey, 15 songs, maybe at least one would be heat but I peeked through the entire Chris Lowe album (which even has impressive guests): sell pile.
Light-Headed produced by Ohmega Watts? Sell pile.
Lous Logic: Sin-O-Matic? Keeper. Dude disses me on it, I gotta roll with that.
I don't think anyone is blaming technology per se. However, I think the issue here is that the EASE OF TECHNOLOGY has lowered the learning curve and in the process, lowered the bar for people to start making their own music. On one level, it's more democratic but on another, more voices doesn't actually inherently mean things are improved as a result. I don't "blame" ProTools for that but is it implicated in all this? Sure.
I definitely agree with what you said about Pro Tools - cats cutting and pasting choruses requires much less skill and dedication.
Just because people are lazy don't blame it on Pro-tools. Pro-tools doesn't have screen prompt telling the artist while they are recording to cut and paste instead of coming wit it live. I will agree with the notion that people have become lazier with the new technology, but that is artist fault not technology. The new technology possibly shows us the listener who really has a great work ethic and who is a lethargic noodle head.
Don't blame technology for laziness of some users.
Cheque - I hear you, but what I was trying to say is that making good music won't necessarily make you stand out. Even with dope and different product, no one will listen unless you have a serious machine behind you. Its not enough to have dope music, you'll still have a day job unless machines are behind you. If you think you can make it in music because you're good ... you're wrong. Being good is a start. You need a machine.
the biggest innovator in recent memory to me (in music in general) was MIA. and even she wasn't going anywhere without some decent $ and hollertronix supporting her. and even then she fell short of expectations. people should innovate, I agree, but thats not enough, you need the $$$$$$$$$$$$
I hear you O. I also have a pile of stuff at home and a bunch of messages in my inbox ("Yo, have you checked the new &*%$ we sent you, it is fire") and I don't have the heart or the patience to sit through most of this stuff. I have become a little disillusioned with the whole scene.
One of the newer indie rap groups that I can really dig is Non Phixion! Both rap and beat wise. They had beats from premier, pete rock, large pro, beatnuts on their album. But it's really their style that makes them stand out. The album was really nice though a few of the cuts could have been better. But the 12" "Black Helicopters/They got...." is sick as is many other of their 12's.
I really like Ill Bill from Non-Phixion. The track that really grabbed my attention was "Cult Leader" off of their "Future is Now" album. Dude really flexed his noodle on that one, no non-sequitur used for the sake of rhyming.
Oh and Louis Logic Sin-o-matic was very well done with/without the Odub diss. I can never get of enough of concept albums (i.e. Mr. Lif's I Phathom, or Prince Paul's Prince among Thieves.)
A lot of interesting ideas floating around in this thread.
I can't really f*ck with much (any?) underground shit these days. There was a time in the late '90's when some legitimately interesting music was being put out by independent artists, but now the whole genre is just a parody of itself. IMO, the bar was forever lowered when independent artists decided that sticking to the underground aesthetic was more important than putting work into a quality product. Now local scenes are inundated with 'heads' selling 18-track debut CDs filled with 2-bar piano loops, and vocals recorded through headphones, who swear that their shit is 'fire' simply by virtue of its dissimilitude to mainstream rap. Blah. More proof of this trend would be the insistance of so many local emcees to handle their own production. The accessibility of beat-making technology is partly to blame for this as well, as are rumours(?) like "9th Wonder uses only Fruity Loops", but the bigger culprit is the unfounded but pandemic idea that anyone can pump out a hot record in their basement. It simply isn't true. And then you have dudes like Meaty sitting on a whole hard drive full of dumb-hot beats that only a handfull of people will ever hear b/c these 'true-school' underground heads won't sack up and invest in a beat that might actually make them sound half-serious about their music. More Blah.
A lot of interesting ideas floating around in this thread.
I can't really f*ck with much (any?) underground shit these days. There was a time in the late '90's when some legitimately interesting music was being put out by independent artists, but now the whole genre is just a parody of itself. IMO, the bar was forever lowered when independent artists decided that sticking to the underground aesthetic was more important than putting work into a quality product. Now local scenes are inundated with 'heads' selling 18-track debut CDs filled with 2-bar piano loops, and vocals recorded through headphones, who swear that their shit is 'fire' simply by virtue of its dissimilitude to mainstream rap. Blah. More proof of this trend would be the insistance of so many local emcees to handle their own production. The accessibility of beat-making technology is partly to blame for this as well, as are rumours(?) like "9th Wonder uses only Fruity Loops", but the bigger culprit is the unfounded but pandemic idea that anyone can pump out a hot record in their basement. It simply isn't true. And then you have dudes like Meaty sitting on a whole hard drive full of dumb-hot beats that only a handfull of people will ever hear b/c these 'true-school' underground heads won't sack up and invest in a beat that might actually make them sound half-serious about their music. More Blah.
I agree that technology has played a role in the quality of Hiphop music. just look at Akai, they got the MPC100 out, teh MPC4000, amnd nopw the MPC2500 boasting more memory and features than ever before. I mean come on enough is enough. I think simplicity and a lack of sample time forces people to be creative and I don;t see that happening all that much. And there are a lot of producers out there taht just sit on hot beats. This also puzzles me. But like I said, there a still a handful of artists out there that put out that quality and it's really up to us to support them.
The technology is only an issue so far as how many idoits it allows to produce. A piece of equipment doesn't make you good or bad, the idea that a producer who is weak on a maxed out MPC would be any better on an SP12 is major suspect.
The underground DIY ethic got taken too far by too many who should've learned to just get in where they fit in. The fact that in many places there isn't a highly competitive local scene just encouraged people to drop shit, literally.
But like I said, there a still a handful of artists out there that put out that quality and it's really up to us to support them.
Oh no doubt, I just don't have the energy to check for new independent music like I used to. I'll still make it a point to peep new material by J-Zone, J-Live, All Natural, Qwel, Count Bass D, Edan, et cetera (regardless of how (un)impressed I've been with their recent output), but when it comes to the new hot shit in suburbia, I am, how do you say, completely disconnected from the cul de sacs.
You gotta also understand that most people are sheep anyway and media also plays a huge role in the sound of Hiphop. You got a lot of magazines that employ a bunch of young college wanna be hipsters who tend to give way too much praise to emo and give emo rappers while the one's making quality Hiphop are thrust into the background.
You gotta also understand that most people are sheep anyway and media also plays a huge role in the sound of Hiphop. You got a lot of magazines that employ a bunch of young college wanna be hipsters who tend to give way too much praise to emo and give emo rappers while the one's making quality Hiphop are thrust into the background.
The lack of an authoratative voice for hip-hop in general has been a big problem for a while. We need a magazine like what The Source used to be.
You know it's a problem when you don't even know where to check for new artists.
You know it's a problem when you don't even know where to check for new artists. Well it's only a problem if you don't even make an effort. Make an effort like you would when you try to find those good Funk and Jazz records. Research is teh key. I've given you a good list to start from above. Some nice Hiphop records to check for. Now it's up to you.
You know it's a problem when you don't even know where to check for new artists.
Well it's only a problem if you don't even make an effort. Make an effort like you would when you try to find those good Funk and Jazz records. Research is teh key. I've given you a good list to start from above. Some nice Hiphop records to check for. Now it's up to you.
And indeed I will use that list! (thanks btw).
But I don't think "message boards" are an authoritative voice. Regular dudes aren't gonna put that much effort and will just end up buying "My hump" () instead of something more quality that maybe isn't getting 1000000X the airplay.
Now, you open any magazine and it's like an organ for Sony Music or whatever else is very hot right now. There needs to be a well balanced organ, something to get the sheep to be checking the good shit too.
It's all about being where the voice can be heard. And I think part of the problem is that there are 1000 different websites, 10000 different blogs, 10000 different magazines....
You know it's a problem when you don't even know where to check for new artists.
Well it's only a problem if you don't even make an effort. Make an effort like you would when you try to find those good Funk and Jazz records. Research is teh key. I've given you a good list to start from above. Some nice Hiphop records to check for. Now it's up to you.
And indeed I will use that list! (thanks btw).
But I don't think "message boards" are an authoritative voice. Regular dudes aren't gonna put that much effort and will just end up buying "My hump" () instead of something more quality that maybe isn't getting 1000000X the airplay.
Now, you open any magazine and it's like an organ for Sony Music or whatever else is very hot right now. There needs to be a well balanced organ, something to get the sheep to be checking the good shit too.
It's all about being where the voice can be heard. And I think part of the problem is that there are 1000 different websites, 10000 different blogs, 10000 different magazines....
Well I would suggest that you find a couple of blogs, writers, etc., that you find worthy and stick with them. And spread the word. You have to start somewhere...
Archetype-Bleed For Them Othello-Elevator Music Majik Most-Molesting Hip-Hop Mr. Greenweedz & G.riot-G-Strings Soundsgood-Biscuits & Gravy Can-U-A Stepping Stone Written Prisms-Ellipsis Blackbird-Bird's Eye View Bad Seed-Dirty Urine
Of course these are albums, not singles. I don't get a lot of singles (put me on your mailing list, MUFALAKAS), but the ones I do haven't impressed me too much either. I think a lot of people are trying to make the single their "make it or break it" piece of work. Arguably, that is how it works these days, a lot of people do not have the patience to sit through 5 tight songs, 12 so-so songs, and 8 interludes. Most artists I hear today are worth a good 5-song EP, if that.
Yet as I've seen in other forums, a lot of people don't want to have to sit through what they feel is "filler". Or to some, an album is merely "filler" for the two songs they see on MTV, BET, or Fuse. A lot of artists aren't exactly doing better either, preferring to release a compilation of "potential singles" or a soundtrack, rather than strenghten their game.
I want to hear a single, and feel that I have a need to hear more. I love the integrity of the album, but then again I'm old and I know better. Take for example Bad Seed, and his album Dirty Urine[/b]. It's a damn good album, and none of the songs are going to be released as singles unless someone does a nice censor job, or he specifically does a clean vocal track. It's raw, it's ugly, and I love it.
As for lyrical schemes being the same old shit, I agree. I think there is still a fear that if someone raps something "other than the norm", they are selling out. Whitening up. Trying to become "smart". To me, Little Brother didn't change a damn thing, yet give them Atlantic Records access and people now think they are a threat. I mention Little Brother in the same text breath because of the accusations that Little Brother was "too smart". Which is good, I don't want to hear dumb music. But are people using "dumb" to describe the music, or just mere hate towards its creators?
I remember when I heard your review of Quasimoto's album on NPR, I thought yes, someone outside of Madlib's core audience may be moved to pick it up, specifically those who may not listen to rap music but may want something weird and unusual, those who go to the Tzadik website and make a mental list of what they want to buy if for some reason $500 came in the mail. Okay, maybe that's just me.
Yet you and I know that Quasimoto's music is limited. He's not Slim Thug, he's not Juelz Santana, and he's not even Gorillaz. But we love the creativity behind it, even if those concepts (i.e. using multiple voices) aren't new.
What I would like to hear is a willingness to break out of that comfort zone. Everyone will salute the past, everyone will need a variation of what came before, but just because Eminem's crown is off of his head doesn't mean we need 50 million other Eminem knockoffs. Eminem predicted his own fate at his performance at the MTV Video Music Awards a few years ago, where there were a mess of Eminem clones. Let's bring back Quo while we're at it.
Yet I know it's not going to happen. Therefore, I listen to heavy duty bongo and kalimba solos.
i second Count Bass D, dude is spectacular, dwight spitz is one of my favorite melodic hip hop albums of all time, and the dude is a trained jazz musician (it shows, he's got a great ear), its so musically rich. Seriously if you've never heard Dwight Spitz pick that sheit up, such a solid unique album, no filler.i can't stress enough of how much of an awesome album it is. dude doesnt deserve to be considered "underground", its just good sheit. Question to those that already have it, is he sampling Johnny Cash vox on the "sanctuary" track? if so what track is that?
Comments
A good example of how new technology has helped to make quality music is the Foreign Exchange album. It was created using fruity loops (and other hardware/software ia assume), the beats and vocals were swapped amongst the collaborators using Fedex and the internet. The result was a solid soul-dusted Hip Hop album that has gotten a lot of media exposure. Or what about Madlib???s contributions to the Jaylib and Madvillian projects (or any of the lastest projects for that matter) which were done on that wack SP-303 and recorded to cassette tape. Granted the sound quality is suspect but the ideas and results were great (assumes some heads will disagree with me on this.) My main point quality hip hop is being created on relatively inexpensive equipment. Home studios are not killing the music, musician just need to develop new ideas.
The new advancement just levels the playing field, and should prompt existing artists to evolve.
-----------
EditDatDeejaY
Just because people are lazy don't blame it on Pro-tools. Pro-tools doesn't have screen prompt telling the artist while they are recording to cut and paste instead of coming wit it live. I will agree with the notion that people have become lazier with the new technology, but that is artist fault not technology. The new technology possibly shows us the listener who really has a great work ethic and who is a lethargic noodle head.
Don't blame technology for laziness of some users.
-----------
EditDatDeejay
Light-Headed produced by Ohmega Watts? Sell pile.
Lous Logic: Sin-O-Matic? Keeper. Dude disses me on it, I gotta roll with that.
be alert!
Cheque - I hear you, but what I was trying to say is that making good music won't necessarily make you stand out. Even with dope and different product, no one will listen unless you have a serious machine behind you. Its not enough to have dope music, you'll still have a day job unless machines are behind you. If you think you can make it in music because you're good ... you're wrong. Being good is a start. You need a machine.
Oh and Louis Logic Sin-o-matic was very well done with/without the Odub diss.
I can never get of enough of concept albums (i.e. Mr. Lif's I Phathom, or Prince Paul's Prince among Thieves.)
http://www.abstrakrecordings.com
You know how we get down with that Boston sound.
I can't really f*ck with much (any?) underground shit these days. There was a time in the late '90's when some legitimately interesting music was being put out by independent artists, but now the whole genre is just a parody of itself. IMO, the bar was forever lowered when independent artists decided that sticking to the underground aesthetic was more important than putting work into a quality product. Now local scenes are inundated with 'heads' selling 18-track debut CDs filled with 2-bar piano loops, and vocals recorded through headphones, who swear that their shit is 'fire' simply by virtue of its dissimilitude to mainstream rap. Blah. More proof of this trend would be the insistance of so many local emcees to handle their own production. The accessibility of beat-making technology is partly to blame for this as well, as are rumours(?) like "9th Wonder uses only Fruity Loops", but the bigger culprit is the unfounded but pandemic idea that anyone can pump out a hot record in their basement. It simply isn't true. And then you have dudes like Meaty sitting on a whole hard drive full of dumb-hot beats that only a handfull of people will ever hear b/c these 'true-school' underground heads won't sack up and invest in a beat that might actually make them sound half-serious about their music. More Blah.
I agree that technology has played a role in the quality of Hiphop music. just look at Akai, they got the MPC100 out, teh MPC4000, amnd nopw the MPC2500 boasting more memory and features than ever before. I mean come on enough is enough. I think simplicity and a lack of sample time forces people to be creative and I don;t see that happening all that much. And there are a lot of producers out there taht just sit on hot beats. This also puzzles me. But like I said, there a still a handful of artists out there that put out that quality and it's really up to us to support them.
The underground DIY ethic got taken too far by too many who should've learned to just get in where they fit in. The fact that in many places there isn't a highly competitive local scene just encouraged people to drop shit, literally.
that's my favortie mr. lif lyric
Oh no doubt, I just don't have the energy to check for new independent music like I used to. I'll still make it a point to peep new material by J-Zone, J-Live, All Natural, Qwel, Count Bass D, Edan, et cetera (regardless of how (un)impressed I've been with their recent output), but when it comes to the new hot shit in suburbia, I am, how do you say, completely disconnected from the cul de sacs.
You know it's a problem when you don't even know where to check for new artists.
Well it's only a problem if you don't even make an effort. Make an effort like you would when you try to find those good Funk and Jazz records. Research is teh key. I've given you a good list to start from above. Some nice Hiphop records to check for. Now it's up to you.
But I don't think "message boards" are an authoritative voice. Regular dudes aren't gonna put that much effort and will just end up buying "My hump" (
Now, you open any magazine and it's like an organ for Sony Music or whatever else is very hot right now. There needs to be a well balanced organ, something to get the sheep to be checking the good shit too.
It's all about being where the voice can be heard. And I think part of the problem is that there are 1000 different websites, 10000 different blogs, 10000 different magazines....
Well I would suggest that you find a couple of blogs, writers, etc., that you find worthy and stick with them. And spread the word. You have to start somewhere...
huh?
Archetype-Bleed For Them
Othello-Elevator Music
Majik Most-Molesting Hip-Hop
Mr. Greenweedz & G.riot-G-Strings
Soundsgood-Biscuits & Gravy
Can-U-A Stepping Stone
Written Prisms-Ellipsis
Blackbird-Bird's Eye View
Bad Seed-Dirty Urine
Of course these are albums, not singles. I don't get a lot of singles (put me on your mailing list, MUFALAKAS), but the ones I do haven't impressed me too much either. I think a lot of people are trying to make the single their "make it or break it" piece of work. Arguably, that is how it works these days, a lot of people do not have the patience to sit through 5 tight songs, 12 so-so songs, and 8 interludes. Most artists I hear today are worth a good 5-song EP, if that.
Yet as I've seen in other forums, a lot of people don't want to have to sit through what they feel is "filler". Or to some, an album is merely "filler" for the two songs they see on MTV, BET, or Fuse. A lot of artists aren't exactly doing better either, preferring to release a compilation of "potential singles" or a soundtrack, rather than strenghten their game.
I want to hear a single, and feel that I have a need to hear more. I love the integrity of the album, but then again I'm old and I know better. Take for example Bad Seed, and his album Dirty Urine[/b]. It's a damn good album, and none of the songs are going to be released as singles unless someone does a nice censor job, or he specifically does a clean vocal track. It's raw, it's ugly, and I love it.
As for lyrical schemes being the same old shit, I agree. I think there is still a fear that if someone raps something "other than the norm", they are selling out. Whitening up. Trying to become "smart". To me, Little Brother didn't change a damn thing, yet give them Atlantic Records access and people now think they are a threat. I mention Little Brother in the same text breath because of the accusations that Little Brother was "too smart". Which is good, I don't want to hear dumb music. But are people using "dumb" to describe the music, or just mere hate towards its creators?
I remember when I heard your review of Quasimoto's album on NPR, I thought yes, someone outside of Madlib's core audience may be moved to pick it up, specifically those who may not listen to rap music but may want something weird and unusual, those who go to the Tzadik website and make a mental list of what they want to buy if for some reason $500 came in the mail. Okay, maybe that's just me.
Yet you and I know that Quasimoto's music is limited. He's not Slim Thug, he's not Juelz Santana, and he's not even Gorillaz. But we love the creativity behind it, even if those concepts (i.e. using multiple voices) aren't new.
What I would like to hear is a willingness to break out of that comfort zone. Everyone will salute the past, everyone will need a variation of what came before, but just because Eminem's crown is off of his head doesn't mean we need 50 million other Eminem knockoffs. Eminem predicted his own fate at his performance at the MTV Video Music Awards a few years ago, where there were a mess of Eminem clones. Let's bring back Quo while we're at it.
Yet I know it's not going to happen. Therefore, I listen to heavy duty bongo and kalimba solos.
ez