I think that's fucking hilarious. They do know, I presume, that Syd from OF is one of the few openly gay figures in hip-hop?
The comparison with Beenie is ridiculous - not even close to the same thing.
:woah:
I had no idea anyone from OF is openly gay.
A person could easily come to the conclusion (as I did) OF endorse homophobia based on thier liberal use of the word "F*G"
I'm confused! Does this guy Syd being gay make up for that?
"What happened to Buju and Beenie" happened because they were making records that were openly calling for attacks on gay people, and they were fostering a climate whereby people felt validated in attacking and in some cases murdering gay people.
I'm at a loss to where this massive gay market for hip-hop is. Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
"Gay control"? "Outwardly gay hip-hop"?
Theres a lot of very camp hip hop out there as far as imagery is concerned - and with acts with a significant gay following like rihanna or lady ga ga affiliated with big hip hop acts, going on tours together, etc., its obvious that being perceived as anti gay could become a mainstream no-no in the near future, if it isnt already.
Big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue, like fat joe, jay z, eminem etc apologising to or endorsing the gay community are more concerned about their income than gay rights. Im sure they're accutely aware a gay boycott could seriously damage their career, like it did Buju bantons or Beenie mans. Basically Fat joe in that clip expresses his belief the 'gay mafia' has control over hip hop, just like any anti semite saying 'jews control the movie industry'. Gay people should be happy about this?
One A-level guy speaking out isn't going to do it. The tide is already turning in the right direction. The more people talk about it in a realistic and positive manner, the more progress is made, the difference will be felt.
The fact that the cats coming up aren't running from it is a good sign imo.
An A-Level celebrity endorsement, I feel, is way more influential than Fat Joe & Mr. Cee in 2012.
Y'all got this backwards. Hip hip is following the bigger trends in society. They're not leading it.
I think that's fucking hilarious. They do know, I presume, that Syd from OF is one of the few openly gay figures in hip-hop?
The comparison with Beenie is ridiculous - not even close to the same thing.
:woah:
I had no idea anyone from OF is openly gay.
A person could easily come to the conclusion (as I did) OF endorse homophobia based on thier liberal use of the word "F*G"
I'm confused! Does this guy Syd being gay make up for that?
Out of interest, for those of the homophobic persuasion here, which rapper would need to endorse gayness in order for you to change your views...?
Violent J
PM Dawn
50 Cent
Katy Red
Joe Budden
In that order. Maybe a joint press conference.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
staxwax said:
DocMcCoy said:
"What happened to Buju and Beenie" happened because they were making records that were openly calling for attacks on gay people, and they were fostering a climate whereby people felt validated in attacking and in some cases murdering gay people.
I'm at a loss to where this massive gay market for hip-hop is. Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
"Gay control"? "Outwardly gay hip-hop"?
Theres a lot of very camp hip hop out there as far as imagery is concerned - and with acts with a significant gay following like rihanna or lady ga ga affiliated with big hip hop acts, going on tours together, etc., its obvious that being perceived as anti gay could become a mainstream no-no in the near future, if it isnt already.
Big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue, like fat joe, jay z, eminem etc apologising to or endorsing the gay community are more concerned about their income than gay rights. Im sure they're accutely aware a gay boycott could seriously damage their career, like it did Buju bantons or Beenie mans. Basically Fat joe in that clip expresses his belief the 'gay mafia' has control over hip hop, just like any anti semite saying 'jews control the movie industry'. Gay people should be happy about this?
If by "very camp", you mean a bunch of rappers dressing like hairdressers - tight t-shirts and jeans, and so on - well, that'll last about as long as dashikis and leather pendants. It's a fashion thing; no more, no less, and it'll be gone in a year or so.
Rappers aren't starving because they're missing out on a few Pink dollars - that's bullshit. They're not going to miss out on any by failing to pander to some all-powerful gay market either. And while we're at it, out of all these "big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue", where are the ones who are saying shit like "burn di chi-chi man" and all that Westboro Baptist-ass shit that Beenie and Buju typified? Proportionately they're very few - there's certainly never been a trend for lyrics which openly call for violence against gay people in hip-hop, at least not that I recall. Quite a few dumb lines tarnishing otherwise great records here and there (shout to Brand Nubian), and an excess of potentially offensive epithets, but you're still more likely to hear a rapper call for cops to be killed than gays.
As for the "gay mafia", that's just an observation on how there are a lot of gay people in the upper echelons of the entertainment industry, full stop. This is hardly a revelation, and there's no reason why it ought to be significantly different in a particular area of the entertainment industry like hip-hop, for example. Not that this will prevent the usual nimrods from conflating Joe's offhand (and probably not too serious) remark into evidence of a gay conspiracy to force rappers into Euromang-smedium t-shirts in pastel shades.
If by "very camp", you mean a bunch of rappers dressing like hairdressers - tight t-shirts and jeans, and so on - well, that'll last about as long as dashikis and leather pendants. It's a fashion thing; no more, no less, and it'll be gone in a year or so.
It seems a definite trend to go against old macho style hip hop by pushing the envelope of effeminate stylings and affections - given how long macho culture has dominated hip hop sensibilities, i think that campy hip hop envelope still has a lot of mileage in it.
And dont tell me you sleep on Fiddy, BEP, Lil B, minaj or the kitten whisperer. So camp.
As for the clothes, or lack of clothes, on display throughout the scene. All that innuendo. Oh my.
DocMcCoy said:
Rappers aren't starving because they're missing out on a few Pink dollars - that's bullshit. They're not going to miss out on any by failing to pander to some all-powerful gay market either. And while we're at it, out of all these "big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue", where are the ones who are saying shit like "burn di chi-chi man" and all that Westboro Baptist-ass shit that Beenie and Buju typified? Proportionately they're very few - there's certainly never been a trend for lyrics which openly call for violence against gay people in hip-hop, at least not that I recall. Quite a few dumb lines tarnishing otherwise great records here and there (shout to Brand Nubian), and an excess of potentially offensive epithets, but you're still more likely to hear a rapper call for cops to be killed than gays.
I didnt say they were starving (although I cant be sure about Joe). But they sure as hell don't want to be banned from mtv award shows or performing on tours, which could easily happen to any rapper with enough, or any, use of the F bomb in their records. As illustrated by the NZ OF ban posted above. so it makes particular sense from a business pov for those rappers to disavow their old stance. And i agree theres really noone out there specificaly rallying against gays in hip hop. Then again, theres hardly any hip hop acts that havent dismissed 'faggots' or 'homos' at some point in some way in the past.
DocMcCoy said:
As for the "gay mafia", that's just an observation on how there are a lot of gay people in the upper echelons of the entertainment industry, full stop. This is hardly a revelation, and there's no reason why it ought to be significantly different in a particular area of the entertainment industry like hip-hop, for example. Not that this will prevent the usual nimrods from conflating Joe's offhand (and probably not too serious) remark into evidence of a gay conspiracy to force rappers into Euromang-smedium t-shirts in pastel shades.
Joe is basically saying "gays are everywhere. And be warned - they have power over hip hop - its stupid to go against em". Coming from him its hardly an endorsement gays should feel proud of.
Not that it'll necessarily be taken this way, but I thought there was a certain tone of respect, if not admiration, in the whole "Gay Mafia" part.
Yeah, caught that too -- gay people hold very high positions in every field across the land. Doesn't really matter if a casual fan of any genre of music is ignorant to the private lifestyles of anyone. A greater acceptance of it just provides an avenue for people to do that if it makes them happy, haters gonna hate, period.
A little bit of a tangent, but I was reading Spin's "Dance Music" issue a few weeks ago and the writer called attention to Em's lyrics in the early 'aughts about "no one listens to techno," with the author alluding to that being a sign of the turning tide on that big wave of very popular dance acts (Prodigy, Fat Boy Slim, et al). It's true, to a point, as it was a part of the zeitgeist. And my point is that we need a nice watermark in hip-hop like that, some undeniably good crossover rapper who just kills the spot with some gay or quasi-gay lyrics that pop on the charts. Something with a little more water-cooler appeal than the Weezy-Birdman kiss to make people rock the tune but also talk about what it means.
Now can we get an A-Level Hip Hop star to speak out.
Not hattin on Joe just sayin.
I wonder who it will be??????. Jay? Kanye? Who's got the power?
Snap?
Did some research, and it turns out it was Snap.
Hilarious!
Also??? just remembered when I read/listened to Prodigy read his autobiography he talks about his Uncle(?) who was gay and was part of the mafia (didn't specify if the rest of the mafia he was part of was gay or not).
Regardless??? he brings it up mostly to talk about his high regard for his uncle and actually makes a point of saying he doesn't care if people are gay or not.
So you can add P to your list of celebrity endorsers
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
"Everyday, I see my people in poverty
And when I say my people, I mean everybody I see
Ain't no discrimination, on Caucasian or Asian
Or Mexican, Samoan, lesbians or the gay men
Everybody got a day to die, and they won't miss it
Better be ready for company, when death come visit."
As Z-Ro puts it, Texas rappers aren't tripping. It's like black and especially mixed girls who grow up as lesbians are predetermined to rap at some point in their lives. They are peoples' sisters or cousins or neighbors and they are a cool part of the landscape. As far as the dudes, there are always whispers about you wouldn't believe how many of these hood rappers are gay. But nobody really persues the conversation beyond maybe a slight giggle. It's like whatever. And shit, if you want to hear blatantly gay rap...Dallas is your best friend.
Can anyone here predict that Gay Orientated Hip Hop will be a part of the mainstream in the next 10 years provided that Hip Hop will even be the anywhere at the level of that generation's kids voice at that time?
Hetero kids arent even rhymin like that anymore, so are we going to see some movement amongst upcoming artists that
will challenge the status quo? Will it even make a difference by 2020?
Will some respected veteran hop on the bus and try and get that 'RainbowCash' and put out a Gay MC?
I have a buddy who says the kids are on some Post-Gay steez and dont even fly the same gay flag as previous generations. Talmbout "i just prefer men".
pimp c beat him on this during that atlanta isn't part of the south interview 5 years back?
b/w
mufuckaz acting like if there's some openly gay rappeur out there they gotta be rapping about rainbows or some shit vs. oh i don't know just regular shit
mufuckaz acting like if there's some openly gay rappeur out there they gotta be rapping about rainbows or some shit vs. oh i don't know just regular shit
there very well could be a cat on some rock a party regular steez but hip hop is usually on some beat my chest identity politics.
i really doubt that an upcoming gay mc wouldnt lace their shit with some real 'my life' subject matter and be encouraged by either their entourage or the check signer.
Not that it'll necessarily be taken this way, but I thought there was a certain tone of respect, if not admiration, in the whole "Gay Mafia" part.
To me it feels reminiscent of the "so well-spoken" line people use for articulate non-whites. He may mean it respectfully, but it still highlights his disconnection and confusion about those he sees as being decidedly "other."
I'm at a loss to where this massive gay market for hip-hop is. Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
There are numerous all rap gay nights in Toronto, the most popular not in gay bars.
asstro said:
Syd is a lesbian, which is way less yucky.
Yes. But even Da Brat and Queen Latifah wear make-up. Syd is not really the typical lesbo fantasy sold to predominantly male subcultures.
I'm at a loss to where this massive gay market for hip-hop is. Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
There are numerous all rap gay nights in Toronto, the most popular not in gay bars.
asstro said:
Syd is a lesbian, which is way less yucky.
Yes. But even Da Brat and Queen Latifah wear make-up. Syd is not really the typical lesbo fantasy sold to predominantly male subcultures.
See also "Lil 4-Tay." I will admit that I thought she was a dude for a minute.
Check ASAP Rocky's interview on his own homophobia.
Quotes from that article:
I'm going to be honest with you-- I used to be homophobic, but that's fucked up. I had to look in the mirror and say, "All the designers I'm wearing are gay." I hear stories about all these industry motherfuckers who are gay, and I don't know if it's true or not, but that shit don't matter. It's so immature.
But don't get scared-- it's not no Illuminati shit. But it is a brotherhood because the days of racial barriers are over. The days of sexual preference are over-- if you're gay, that's your business. That doesn't stop you from being my brother. If you yellow, you're still my brother. Let's smoke some weed.
Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
I don't want to take this too far from the subject of rap, but choosing to not listen/support certain artists or scenes is something we can do if it is imported to us. It is a way more complex if you live in it, are brought up in it, etc. All to say, there are gay men and women who live, listen and dance to Beenie, Buju, etc.
I live in a predominantly W Indian neighbourhood, the reggae parties here are as homespun as you can get. Gay men and women attend these parties. Are they dancing together and making out? No. But as dancehall fans who also find other aspects of what they enjoy at the sound, they attend.
And to be honest, a lot of the 'fire bun', 'kill chi chi man' shite is just not party music. Folks playing the music want to promote good times and drinking - not self-righteous, aggro, disruptive behaviour.
I think it's also worth mentioning that there are great dancehall parties around Pride Week. Not all straight Jamaicans are homophobic. Not all gay peoples hate dancehall.
Another way to say it.
It is estimated that 5-10% of the general population is homosexual (LGBT)
It is safe to assume that a similar percentage of whatever subset is also LGBT.
Rappers, hip hop fans, record executives, pro football players (ok not L) Tea Party members.
A more welcoming subset may be higher and a less welcoming lower, but your sexuality does not determine your musical tastes, talent, athletic ability or politics.
There are quite a few threads in the front page of the forum today to which one could apply this very quote, with a simple shrug of the shoulders. I like your unadorned remarks, Joe.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
bassie said:
Most of the gay people I know couldn't give a fuck about hip-hop or dancehall - they just don't want to be terrorised by morons who are getting their prejudices pandered to by some idiot rapper or deejay.
I don't want to take this too far from the subject of rap, but choosing to not listen/support certain artists or scenes is something we can do if it is imported to us. It is a way more complex if you live in it, are brought up in it, etc. All to say, there are gay men and women who live, listen and dance to Beenie, Buju, etc.
I live in a predominantly W Indian neighbourhood, the reggae parties here are as homespun as you can get. Gay men and women attend these parties. Are they dancing together and making out? No. But as dancehall fans who also find other aspects of what they enjoy at the sound, they attend.
And to be honest, a lot of the 'fire bun', 'kill chi chi man' shite is just not party music. Folks playing the music want to promote good times and drinking - not self-righteous, aggro, disruptive behaviour.
I think it's also worth mentioning that there are great dancehall parties around Pride Week. Not all straight Jamaicans are homophobic. Not all gay peoples hate dancehall.
(I am not articulating this as well as I want to)
No, I get the picture. I'm just speaking on what I've heard from some (not all) of the gay folks in my circle, and maybe I shouldn't have used such a broad brush. I particularly appreciate your first point - this is something a lot of people don't consider. Saying "I won't have that talk in my house" is one thing, but what do you do when you hear that talk in everybody else's house? Either you stay at home, or you find a way to come to terms with it.
Comments
I think things like this make a difference:
http://rapfix.mtv.com/2011/11/05/odd-future-banned-new-zealand-festival-big-day-out-homophobic-lyrics
I think that's fucking hilarious. They do know, I presume, that Syd from OF is one of the few openly gay figures in hip-hop?
The comparison with Beenie is ridiculous - not even close to the same thing.
:woah:
I had no idea anyone from OF is openly gay.
A person could easily come to the conclusion (as I did) OF endorse homophobia based on thier liberal use of the word "F*G"
I'm confused! Does this guy Syd being gay make up for that?
Theres a lot of very camp hip hop out there as far as imagery is concerned - and with acts with a significant gay following like rihanna or lady ga ga affiliated with big hip hop acts, going on tours together, etc., its obvious that being perceived as anti gay could become a mainstream no-no in the near future, if it isnt already.
Big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue, like fat joe, jay z, eminem etc apologising to or endorsing the gay community are more concerned about their income than gay rights. Im sure they're accutely aware a gay boycott could seriously damage their career, like it did Buju bantons or Beenie mans. Basically Fat joe in that clip expresses his belief the 'gay mafia' has control over hip hop, just like any anti semite saying 'jews control the movie industry'. Gay people should be happy about this?
Y'all got this backwards. Hip hip is following the bigger trends in society. They're not leading it.
Syd is a lesbian, which is way less yucky.
Violent J
PM Dawn
50 Cent
Katy Red
Joe Budden
In that order. Maybe a joint press conference.
If by "very camp", you mean a bunch of rappers dressing like hairdressers - tight t-shirts and jeans, and so on - well, that'll last about as long as dashikis and leather pendants. It's a fashion thing; no more, no less, and it'll be gone in a year or so.
Rappers aren't starving because they're missing out on a few Pink dollars - that's bullshit. They're not going to miss out on any by failing to pander to some all-powerful gay market either. And while we're at it, out of all these "big name rappers with gay slurs in their catalogue", where are the ones who are saying shit like "burn di chi-chi man" and all that Westboro Baptist-ass shit that Beenie and Buju typified? Proportionately they're very few - there's certainly never been a trend for lyrics which openly call for violence against gay people in hip-hop, at least not that I recall. Quite a few dumb lines tarnishing otherwise great records here and there (shout to Brand Nubian), and an excess of potentially offensive epithets, but you're still more likely to hear a rapper call for cops to be killed than gays.
As for the "gay mafia", that's just an observation on how there are a lot of gay people in the upper echelons of the entertainment industry, full stop. This is hardly a revelation, and there's no reason why it ought to be significantly different in a particular area of the entertainment industry like hip-hop, for example. Not that this will prevent the usual nimrods from conflating Joe's offhand (and probably not too serious) remark into evidence of a gay conspiracy to force rappers into Euromang-smedium t-shirts in pastel shades.
It seems a definite trend to go against old macho style hip hop by pushing the envelope of effeminate stylings and affections - given how long macho culture has dominated hip hop sensibilities, i think that campy hip hop envelope still has a lot of mileage in it.
And dont tell me you sleep on Fiddy, BEP, Lil B, minaj or the kitten whisperer. So camp.
As for the clothes, or lack of clothes, on display throughout the scene. All that innuendo. Oh my.
I didnt say they were starving (although I cant be sure about Joe). But they sure as hell don't want to be banned from mtv award shows or performing on tours, which could easily happen to any rapper with enough, or any, use of the F bomb in their records. As illustrated by the NZ OF ban posted above. so it makes particular sense from a business pov for those rappers to disavow their old stance. And i agree theres really noone out there specificaly rallying against gays in hip hop. Then again, theres hardly any hip hop acts that havent dismissed 'faggots' or 'homos' at some point in some way in the past.
Joe is basically saying "gays are everywhere. And be warned - they have power over hip hop - its stupid to go against em". Coming from him its hardly an endorsement gays should feel proud of.
Did some research, and it turns out it was Snap.
Yeah, caught that too -- gay people hold very high positions in every field across the land. Doesn't really matter if a casual fan of any genre of music is ignorant to the private lifestyles of anyone. A greater acceptance of it just provides an avenue for people to do that if it makes them happy, haters gonna hate, period.
A little bit of a tangent, but I was reading Spin's "Dance Music" issue a few weeks ago and the writer called attention to Em's lyrics in the early 'aughts about "no one listens to techno," with the author alluding to that being a sign of the turning tide on that big wave of very popular dance acts (Prodigy, Fat Boy Slim, et al). It's true, to a point, as it was a part of the zeitgeist. And my point is that we need a nice watermark in hip-hop like that, some undeniably good crossover rapper who just kills the spot with some gay or quasi-gay lyrics that pop on the charts. Something with a little more water-cooler appeal than the Weezy-Birdman kiss to make people rock the tune but also talk about what it means.
Hilarious!
Also??? just remembered when I read/listened to Prodigy read his autobiography he talks about his Uncle(?) who was gay and was part of the mafia (didn't specify if the rest of the mafia he was part of was gay or not).
Regardless??? he brings it up mostly to talk about his high regard for his uncle and actually makes a point of saying he doesn't care if people are gay or not.
So you can add P to your list of celebrity endorsers
And when I say my people, I mean everybody I see
Ain't no discrimination, on Caucasian or Asian
Or Mexican, Samoan, lesbians or the gay men
Everybody got a day to die, and they won't miss it
Better be ready for company, when death come visit."
As Z-Ro puts it, Texas rappers aren't tripping. It's like black and especially mixed girls who grow up as lesbians are predetermined to rap at some point in their lives. They are peoples' sisters or cousins or neighbors and they are a cool part of the landscape. As far as the dudes, there are always whispers about you wouldn't believe how many of these hood rappers are gay. But nobody really persues the conversation beyond maybe a slight giggle. It's like whatever. And shit, if you want to hear blatantly gay rap...Dallas is your best friend.
Hetero kids arent even rhymin like that anymore, so are we going to see some movement amongst upcoming artists that
will challenge the status quo? Will it even make a difference by 2020?
Will some respected veteran hop on the bus and try and get that 'RainbowCash' and put out a Gay MC?
I have a buddy who says the kids are on some Post-Gay steez and dont even fly the same gay flag as previous generations. Talmbout "i just prefer men".
b/w
mufuckaz acting like if there's some openly gay rappeur out there they gotta be rapping about rainbows or some shit vs. oh i don't know just regular shit
there very well could be a cat on some rock a party regular steez but hip hop is usually on some beat my chest identity politics.
i really doubt that an upcoming gay mc wouldnt lace their shit with some real 'my life' subject matter and be encouraged by either their entourage or the check signer.
To me it feels reminiscent of the "so well-spoken" line people use for articulate non-whites. He may mean it respectfully, but it still highlights his disconnection and confusion about those he sees as being decidedly "other."
There are numerous all rap gay nights in Toronto, the most popular not in gay bars.
Yes. But even Da Brat and Queen Latifah wear make-up. Syd is not really the typical lesbo fantasy sold to predominantly male subcultures.
See also "Lil 4-Tay." I will admit that I thought she was a dude for a minute.
Quotes from that article:
I don't want to take this too far from the subject of rap, but choosing to not listen/support certain artists or scenes is something we can do if it is imported to us. It is a way more complex if you live in it, are brought up in it, etc. All to say, there are gay men and women who live, listen and dance to Beenie, Buju, etc.
I live in a predominantly W Indian neighbourhood, the reggae parties here are as homespun as you can get. Gay men and women attend these parties. Are they dancing together and making out? No. But as dancehall fans who also find other aspects of what they enjoy at the sound, they attend.
And to be honest, a lot of the 'fire bun', 'kill chi chi man' shite is just not party music. Folks playing the music want to promote good times and drinking - not self-righteous, aggro, disruptive behaviour.
I think it's also worth mentioning that there are great dancehall parties around Pride Week. Not all straight Jamaicans are homophobic. Not all gay peoples hate dancehall.
(I am not articulating this as well as I want to)
It is estimated that 5-10% of the general population is homosexual (LGBT)
It is safe to assume that a similar percentage of whatever subset is also LGBT.
Rappers, hip hop fans, record executives, pro football players (ok not L) Tea Party members.
A more welcoming subset may be higher and a less welcoming lower, but your sexuality does not determine your musical tastes, talent, athletic ability or politics.
There are quite a few threads in the front page of the forum today to which one could apply this very quote, with a simple shrug of the shoulders. I like your unadorned remarks, Joe.
No, I get the picture. I'm just speaking on what I've heard from some (not all) of the gay folks in my circle, and maybe I shouldn't have used such a broad brush. I particularly appreciate your first point - this is something a lot of people don't consider. Saying "I won't have that talk in my house" is one thing, but what do you do when you hear that talk in everybody else's house? Either you stay at home, or you find a way to come to terms with it.
didnt kanye already come out in support of gays, or at least against homophobia?