I have never seen them live, but this is the thing - which I kinda thought reading the Lee Perry thread - some acts are strictly for the studio. Some folks know how to make knob twiddling, button pushing and a snake pit of cables interesting, and some don't.
I saw Aba Shanti a bunch of years ago, so, one dude (facing the wall), one mic, one turntable and a glorious pre-amp. It is still one of the most exciting things I have experienced.
lol at the Tortoise comment, I know, right?...I guess even instruments can't help some people.
I ride hard for the period, a lot of stuff doesn't stand up but that's true of any genre. I partied my ass off and thank the Brits and others for trip hop and other hybrid music and the drugs. I had a great time and wore a bucket hat.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
HarveyCanal said:
Not saying they're responsible for all the chud beyond them. I'm saying they don't deserve a pass for being hip-hop lite. For as Batmon posted, their whole steez had already been covered by a single one-minute De La interlude. All that influenced by punk and such talk is just long-winded Brit wank.
Well, no, it isn't. You're trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs again. I know precisely where they're coming from musically. You don't. Simple.
I'm neither defending nor denouncing them for being "hip-hop lite", because that's the kind of reductionist nonsense I'd expect to hear from someone who didn't know or care about the unique (and uniquely British) combination of social, musical and cultural elements that Massive Attack grew out of. An American act would never have come up with something like Blue Lines in years. Sure, you might well have heard those Mahavishnu, Isaac Hayes and Tom Scott samples on Biz and Rakim records and suchlike around that time. But combining them with all the other elements to make something that sounded kind of like rap, but also kind of soundtracky and atmospheric, and a bit like late-period Clash and a load of other post-punk things like Shriekback or The Pop Group...that would never have occurred to American musicians in 1990 simply because the cultural context for a record like that didn't exist in the US, and quite probably still doesn't outside of the big cities.
This is why America took more readily to Soul II Soul, who were different branches of the same tree (Nellee Hooper being ex- of The Wild Bunch, who featured three members of Massive Attack), but who crucially took a more traditional r&b approach without Massive Attack's edgy weirdness.
This is what Massive Attack sounded like in 88, about a year before De La started fooling around with Turtles loops;
None of this is any great mystery, you understand. You just need to have some interest in knowing about it. Either that, or to have known about it at the time. Obviously, you don't qualify on either count.
but i am curious to see what styles are revisited by kids who were too young to live the shit.
hear hear.
I for one am more interested in seeing what becomes of the upbeat, mega-chopped, heavy breakbeat "jungle" styles from before they devolved into tepid two-step, rather than the downbeat hip-hop variants if we're going to talk 90's. To each their own but personally I think the Brits have something more innovative to be proud of in these hardcore breakbeat and oldskool jungle styles than trip-hop.
but i am curious to see what styles are revisited by kids who were too young to live the shit.
hear hear.
I for one am more interested in seeing what becomes of the upbeat, mega-chopped, heavy breakbeat "jungle" styles from before they devolved into tepid two-step, rather than the downbeat hip-hop variants if we're going to talk 90's. To each their own but personally I think the Brits have something more innovative to be proud of in these hardcore breakbeat and oldskool jungle styles than trip-hop.
me, too!
was even thinking of trying to start a resurgence by doing jungle/hardcore re-edits.
there are so many potentially amazing tunes destroyed by cheesy elements
but i am curious to see what styles are revisited by kids who were too young to live the shit.
hear hear.
I for one am more interested in seeing what becomes of the upbeat, mega-chopped, heavy breakbeat "jungle" styles from before they devolved into tepid two-step, rather than the downbeat hip-hop variants if we're going to talk 90's. To each their own but personally I think the Brits have something more innovative to be proud of in these hardcore breakbeat and oldskool jungle styles than trip-hop.
me, too!
was even thinking of trying to start a resurgence by doing jungle/hardcore re-edits.
there are so many potentially amazing tunes destroyed by cheesy elements
I've always thought of making a post of say asking about "Tom's Diner" by Suzan Vega, and Saint Etienne's cover "Only love can break your heart" and asking what genre that would be, and just answering myself that's its something like Joni Mitchell with slow hip hop beats. And though I've come to expect that music from car commercials/starbucks these days yet I still dig it. I loved Tricky's Maxinquae,Portishead's first album and Hooverphonic, Massive Attack, Morcheeba etc and still do. Lately I've been Playing Portishead's "It's a Fire" on constant,(it was on Portishead's first album, but only in north america as a bonus) beautiful track;
J-Dilla kept trip hop alive when trip hop was about to take a dive?
lol nice.
I remembered being surprised as hell hearing this Hooverphonic track in the background of an episode of Entourage, immediately checking it on youtube and laughing about the youtube comments acusing of Hooverphonic for stealing Biggie's "original work", solid tune still!:
As someone who was devotedly into the scene at the beginning of the nineties I can't say I'm particularly keen for it to be revitalised. Without in any way criticising them for their worth at the time I think the only album from the Bristol set that I could happily revisit today would be Pre-Millennium Tension and that's probably because Tricky seemed to do his utmost to distance himself from the genre the media were placing him at the forefront of by making most of it as about as non dinner party friendly as possible.
I still have a soft spot for these albums and they had a massive influence on me at the time, sounding as they did incredibly British but at the same time unique and, for desperate want of a better word, cool. Even the over polished work like Protection still has moments of beauty that reflect the kind of background influences that Doc brought up.
However, as albums in their own right I don't think they've aged well and the subsequent aping and assimilation of the sound into mainstream pop means that I don't really have to go far if I want to hear something similar even if it is soulless. Portishead's third album though was a genuine delight and again worked best in the moments when they ventured far from the sound they were associated with.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
DocMcCoy said:
HarveyCanal said:
Not saying they're responsible for all the chud beyond them. I'm saying they don't deserve a pass for being hip-hop lite. For as Batmon posted, their whole steez had already been covered by a single one-minute De La interlude. All that influenced by punk and such talk is just long-winded Brit wank.
Well, no, it isn't. You're trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs again. I know precisely where they're coming from musically. You don't. Simple.
I'm neither defending nor denouncing them for being "hip-hop lite", because that's the kind of reductionist nonsense I'd expect to hear from someone who didn't know or care about the unique (and uniquely British) combination of social, musical and cultural elements that Massive Attack grew out of. An American act would never have come up with something like Blue Lines in years. Sure, you might well have heard those Mahavishnu, Isaac Hayes and Tom Scott samples on Biz and Rakim records and suchlike around that time. But combining them with all the other elements to make something that sounded kind of like rap, but also kind of soundtracky and atmospheric, and a bit like late-period Clash and a load of other post-punk things like Shriekback or The Pop Group...that would never have occurred to American musicians in 1990 simply because the cultural context for a record like that didn't exist in the US, and quite probably still doesn't outside of the big cities.
One, I'll say someone like Divine Styler was more or less already doing all of that. And two, it figures he's from LA because there KDAY mixed with KROQ to cover all of that ground for anyone privliged enough to own a radio.
You are getting so carried away with conceptualizing Massive Attack, when like you even say, it's no mystery at all...I used to hear Shriekback on KROQ in LA and I used to hear plenty of similar music in Houston as well, where clubs during the late 80's played that same equal mix of hardcore rap and new wavy ish, to the point that in '89 Houston club deejay's made Moses P's Twilight Zone a hit, moreso than in any other American city.
Point being, we were definitely on the same wavelength over here.
This is what Massive Attack sounded like in 88, about a year before De La started fooling around with Turtles loops;
I had never heard this before and I like it actually...but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to point out that Massive Attack started out aping Latin freestyle prior to slowing things down to a more dub-like aesthetic.
One, I'll say someone like Divine Styler was more or less already doing all of that. And two, it figures he's from LA because there KDAY mixed with KROQ to cover all of that ground for anyone privliged enough to own a radio.
You are getting so carried away with conceptualizing Massive Attack, when like you even say, it's no mystery at all...I used to hear Shriekback on KROQ in LA and I used to hear plenty of similar music in Houston as well, where clubs during the late 80's played that same equal mix of hardcore rap and new wavy ish, to the point that in '89 Houston club deejay's made Moses P's Twilight Zone a hit, moreso than in any other American city.
Point being, we were definitely on the same wavelength over here.
I disagree slighty. The wavelength might've been the same, but sonically and culturally, it was different. And I know I take the Euroman Conceptualizing perspective as well, but Moses P and Massive Attack, although both from comparable backgrounds (early to mid 80's pioneer Euro-HipHop Crews in their respective cities) are a completely different thing. And Bristol with its history as a port city and the amalgamation of different cultures that happened there sharpened the sound of "Blue Lines". I don't think anything like this could've come from the states at that time. One guy I know once said their first album was "music evolution in real time" and I can see the point in his argument. Massive Attack were to the best of my knowledge also the only British crew that ever made it to Yo! MTV Raps. If that says anything.
I still ride for Massive Attack. from Blue Lines through to 100th window.
And they kill it live - still.
I loved all that trip-hop stuff BITD (but always hated the term), and seeing as I'm most certainly not the only guy round here who smoked way too much weed in the 90's I know I'm not alone.
Played Blue Lines this afternoon actually, still sounds great.
i really dont think it will be rejuvenated. theres too many old people still into it. if anything itll resurface the same way jazz was revived, a la spyro gyra and the likes. plus its not dancey enough. all the revival shit usually comes about because its danceable.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
sticky_dojah said:
HarveyCanal said:
One, I'll say someone like Divine Styler was more or less already doing all of that. And two, it figures he's from LA because there KDAY mixed with KROQ to cover all of that ground for anyone privliged enough to own a radio.
You are getting so carried away with conceptualizing Massive Attack, when like you even say, it's no mystery at all...I used to hear Shriekback on KROQ in LA and I used to hear plenty of similar music in Houston as well, where clubs during the late 80's played that same equal mix of hardcore rap and new wavy ish, to the point that in '89 Houston club deejay's made Moses P's Twilight Zone a hit, moreso than in any other American city.
Point being, we were definitely on the same wavelength over here.
I disagree slighty. The wavelength might've been the same, but sonically and culturally, it was different. And I know I take the Euroman Conceptualizing perspective as well, but Moses P and Massive Attack, although both from comparable backgrounds (early to mid 80's pioneer Euro-HipHop Crews in their respective cities) are a completely different thing. And Bristol with its history as a port city and the amalgamation of different cultures that happened there sharpened the sound of "Blue Lines". I don't think anything like this could've come from the states at that time. One guy I know once said their first album was "music evolution in real time" and I can see the point in his argument. Massive Attack were to the best of my knowledge also the only British crew that ever made it to Yo! MTV Raps. If that says anything.
Also, it's one thing to be aware of/surrounded by all those disparate musical strains and elements, but quite another to take them and successfully draw them together whilst still displaying a distinct musical personality of your own, which was what Massive Attack actually did on those first two or three albums.
but i am curious to see what styles are revisited by kids who were too young to live the shit.
hear hear.
I for one am more interested in seeing what becomes of the upbeat, mega-chopped, heavy breakbeat "jungle" styles from before they devolved into tepid two-step, rather than the downbeat hip-hop variants if we're going to talk 90's. To each their own but personally I think the Brits have something more innovative to be proud of in these hardcore breakbeat and oldskool jungle styles than trip-hop.
jungle is massive. yeah i genuinely think that was our "golden era". i'm sad to learn that Dj Crystl is a bodybuilding instructor these days.
not so much to add to the trip hop discussion, though i do think that the brainfeeder camp / the instrumental beatmaking stuff thats been going on for a few years now is a direct resurrection of that mowax type sound, fortunately a lot of it is more jagged and engaging. the trouble with a lot of that mowax stuff (and i have 90 percent of it in the collection!) was that the tracks were just looping on and on and it was as a result in a lot of cases, pretty boring. technological advances in the sounds you can get out of software, combined with the effect of stronger cannabis and better video games on peoples attention spans, has in some ways led to music that is a bit more engaging than that period. eg i don't think you can say Samiyam is muzak-y. The influence of the internet should not be understated either, as beatmaking amongst the yoof is a memetic activity these days, hence why many of em end up sounding so much like each other. i'm just glad we're out of that microkorg x mpc period, I was getting very bored of hearing analog synth preset 7 over a kit sampled off welcome to detroit.
my only remark re: massive, soul II soul, wild bunch - its important to understand how that community was truly rooted equally in hip hop AND reggae, and how interchangeable all the members of the crews were in a sense. it grew out of a time when parties like that of the Africa centre, rooted in our traditional reggae sound system culture, began to embrace drum machines and early hip hop. the two things fused into a natural hybrid over here, which is fundamentally different to what happened in the US. Just like how we knocked up lovers rock from our love of soul AND reggae in tandem. my mate from soul II soul once told me an anecdote of what happened when they first plugged a sequential circuits drum machine into their sound system and started knocking out beats.. everyone lost their minds. That hybridisation is something we do over here that is unique to us I think. Groups like Massive Attack grew out of the philosophy of that period. And for further evidence, members of Soul II Soul went on to produce London Posse (original "hardcore" uk hip hop) and UK garage (Wookie was in Soul II Soul).
I think harvey should come to notting hill carnival, that would put it in perspective. at the best sounds you get a mix of classic soul, dub, boogie and hip hop favourites, thats just how we do it in London.
The promotional write-up for the new Rhian Benson album referred to her music as "Sade meets DJ Shadow", so somebody thinks this is a way to promote music right now.
Comments
I saw Aba Shanti a bunch of years ago, so, one dude (facing the wall), one mic, one turntable and a glorious pre-amp. It is still one of the most exciting things I have experienced.
lol at the Tortoise comment, I know, right?...I guess even instruments can't help some people.
Well, no, it isn't. You're trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs again. I know precisely where they're coming from musically. You don't. Simple.
I'm neither defending nor denouncing them for being "hip-hop lite", because that's the kind of reductionist nonsense I'd expect to hear from someone who didn't know or care about the unique (and uniquely British) combination of social, musical and cultural elements that Massive Attack grew out of. An American act would never have come up with something like Blue Lines in years. Sure, you might well have heard those Mahavishnu, Isaac Hayes and Tom Scott samples on Biz and Rakim records and suchlike around that time. But combining them with all the other elements to make something that sounded kind of like rap, but also kind of soundtracky and atmospheric, and a bit like late-period Clash and a load of other post-punk things like Shriekback or The Pop Group...that would never have occurred to American musicians in 1990 simply because the cultural context for a record like that didn't exist in the US, and quite probably still doesn't outside of the big cities.
This is why America took more readily to Soul II Soul, who were different branches of the same tree (Nellee Hooper being ex- of The Wild Bunch, who featured three members of Massive Attack), but who crucially took a more traditional r&b approach without Massive Attack's edgy weirdness.
This is what Massive Attack sounded like in 88, about a year before De La started fooling around with Turtles loops;
None of this is any great mystery, you understand. You just need to have some interest in knowing about it. Either that, or to have known about it at the time. Obviously, you don't qualify on either count.
i dont see r&b cats rehashing late 80s/early 90s New Jack Swing either.
but i am curious to see what styles are revisited by kids who were too young to live the shit.
hear hear.
I for one am more interested in seeing what becomes of the upbeat, mega-chopped, heavy breakbeat "jungle" styles from before they devolved into tepid two-step, rather than the downbeat hip-hop variants if we're going to talk 90's. To each their own but personally I think the Brits have something more innovative to be proud of in these hardcore breakbeat and oldskool jungle styles than trip-hop.
me, too!
was even thinking of trying to start a resurgence by doing jungle/hardcore re-edits.
there are so many potentially amazing tunes destroyed by cheesy elements
THINK ABOUT IT ;)
me, too!
was even thinking of trying to start a resurgence by doing jungle/hardcore re-edits.
there are so many potentially amazing tunes destroyed by cheesy elements
THINK ABOUT IT ;)
J-Dilla kept trip hop alive when trip hop was about to take a dive?
lol nice.
I remembered being surprised as hell hearing this Hooverphonic track in the background of an episode of Entourage, immediately checking it on youtube and laughing about the youtube comments acusing of Hooverphonic for stealing Biggie's "original work", solid tune still!:
ps: How do you embed youtube videos here?
I still have a soft spot for these albums and they had a massive influence on me at the time, sounding as they did incredibly British but at the same time unique and, for desperate want of a better word, cool. Even the over polished work like Protection still has moments of beauty that reflect the kind of background influences that Doc brought up.
However, as albums in their own right I don't think they've aged well and the subsequent aping and assimilation of the sound into mainstream pop means that I don't really have to go far if I want to hear something similar even if it is soulless. Portishead's third album though was a genuine delight and again worked best in the moments when they ventured far from the sound they were associated with.
http://www.spin.com/articles/rebirth-instrumental-hip-hop?utm_source=spintwitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=spintwitter
Portishead had a couple of bangeurs, but Jadell & The Wiseguys were THE schitt.
One, I'll say someone like Divine Styler was more or less already doing all of that. And two, it figures he's from LA because there KDAY mixed with KROQ to cover all of that ground for anyone privliged enough to own a radio.
You are getting so carried away with conceptualizing Massive Attack, when like you even say, it's no mystery at all...I used to hear Shriekback on KROQ in LA and I used to hear plenty of similar music in Houston as well, where clubs during the late 80's played that same equal mix of hardcore rap and new wavy ish, to the point that in '89 Houston club deejay's made Moses P's Twilight Zone a hit, moreso than in any other American city.
Point being, we were definitely on the same wavelength over here.
I had never heard this before and I like it actually...but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to point out that Massive Attack started out aping Latin freestyle prior to slowing things down to a more dub-like aesthetic.
I still like Slide Five a lot. They got some good ones.
Ripe for Euroman rediscovery...
I disagree slighty. The wavelength might've been the same, but sonically and culturally, it was different. And I know I take the Euroman Conceptualizing perspective as well, but Moses P and Massive Attack, although both from comparable backgrounds (early to mid 80's pioneer Euro-HipHop Crews in their respective cities) are a completely different thing. And Bristol with its history as a port city and the amalgamation of different cultures that happened there sharpened the sound of "Blue Lines". I don't think anything like this could've come from the states at that time. One guy I know once said their first album was "music evolution in real time" and I can see the point in his argument. Massive Attack were to the best of my knowledge also the only British crew that ever made it to Yo! MTV Raps. If that says anything.
And it's surprisingly good, IMO. Best work they've done in a minute.
:feelin_it:
And they kill it live - still.
I loved all that trip-hop stuff BITD (but always hated the term), and seeing as I'm most certainly not the only guy round here who smoked way too much weed in the 90's I know I'm not alone.
Played Blue Lines this afternoon actually, still sounds great.
Also, it's one thing to be aware of/surrounded by all those disparate musical strains and elements, but quite another to take them and successfully draw them together whilst still displaying a distinct musical personality of your own, which was what Massive Attack actually did on those first two or three albums.
Reeeeeeeeeewind that ish.
not so much to add to the trip hop discussion, though i do think that the brainfeeder camp / the instrumental beatmaking stuff thats been going on for a few years now is a direct resurrection of that mowax type sound, fortunately a lot of it is more jagged and engaging. the trouble with a lot of that mowax stuff (and i have 90 percent of it in the collection!) was that the tracks were just looping on and on and it was as a result in a lot of cases, pretty boring. technological advances in the sounds you can get out of software, combined with the effect of stronger cannabis and better video games on peoples attention spans, has in some ways led to music that is a bit more engaging than that period. eg i don't think you can say Samiyam is muzak-y. The influence of the internet should not be understated either, as beatmaking amongst the yoof is a memetic activity these days, hence why many of em end up sounding so much like each other. i'm just glad we're out of that microkorg x mpc period, I was getting very bored of hearing analog synth preset 7 over a kit sampled off welcome to detroit.
my only remark re: massive, soul II soul, wild bunch - its important to understand how that community was truly rooted equally in hip hop AND reggae, and how interchangeable all the members of the crews were in a sense. it grew out of a time when parties like that of the Africa centre, rooted in our traditional reggae sound system culture, began to embrace drum machines and early hip hop. the two things fused into a natural hybrid over here, which is fundamentally different to what happened in the US. Just like how we knocked up lovers rock from our love of soul AND reggae in tandem. my mate from soul II soul once told me an anecdote of what happened when they first plugged a sequential circuits drum machine into their sound system and started knocking out beats.. everyone lost their minds. That hybridisation is something we do over here that is unique to us I think. Groups like Massive Attack grew out of the philosophy of that period. And for further evidence, members of Soul II Soul went on to produce London Posse (original "hardcore" uk hip hop) and UK garage (Wookie was in Soul II Soul).
I think harvey should come to notting hill carnival, that would put it in perspective. at the best sounds you get a mix of classic soul, dub, boogie and hip hop favourites, thats just how we do it in London.