and I might ahve been wrong about Outkast, I don;t have the book in frotn of me I just remember reading it and asking why this album this album or this album wasn't in it. i should shut my mouth until I get the book in front of me again.
I'm tempted to comment here but I won't. Suffice to say, "Southernplayastic" is most definitely included.
As to this larger question raised by around regional/national...
I think this raises really important points about trying to talk about hip-hop in some kind of all-inclusive, definitive way. As I keep noting - canon-making is a fool's task (though I seem to excel in doing it anyways) - and there are many valid arguments around why the task is well-nigh impossible.
The thing is...I agree with Noz that hip-hop has always been regional on one level. The question is: when does a regional artist/album manage to blow up nationally but more importnatly: does this matter? In other words, should we discount an album that is HUGE for a regional scene if no one outside of that scene cares? Why do we privilege geographic span (i.e. nerd rap that benefits from the internet) or regional importance and album sales (even if it only stays "in region").
I don't think we'd be having this same discussion the same way even just five years ago...which isn't to discount the importance of regional rap scenes but let's face it: hip-hop's identity has largely been dominated by a bi-coastal perspective - NY and LA - and it's only in the last few years that the South has really become dominant and not just treat as a step-child by hip-hop media, pundits, etc. These days, you can't talk about hip-hop without talking about the South. I don't think it was like that 10 years ago despite many popular and important Southern artists of the era.
But the South was running rap five years ago. "Five years ago" now = 2000. No Limit and Cash Money had sold millions of records and were, in fact, already on the decline at that point. You guys keep acting as if all this schitt happened yesterday.
And as for the NY/LA axis, that too is relatively ancient history. The last great record to come out of the nineties LA dynasty and really matter nationally was Makavelli, and that's nine years ago.
I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. But depsite high sales by Southern artists in 2000 I personally don't feel like there was a national awareness that swung South the same way it exists now. I'm sure it did for you because you're like that and I don't know....maybe the kids around the way where you live in Harlem were straight banging bounce on the block. Maybe 2000 was the beginning of the tipping point but I don't think it tipped over yet.
This point is academic in any case. I think everyone can probably agree that hip-hop's spatial alignment has forever been rocked out of its NY-centric axis.
Oliver I have tremendous amounts of respect for what you, John, et al. do... but that said, the just because critics didn't talk about southern rap five years ago doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been talked about... it wasn't on a lot of people's radars, but those people were and are often the last to know about anything in hip-hop. Now you know I don't hold your "disconnected from the streets" status against you, but labels, artists, and fans were all very interested in Southern hip-hop, even back then.
Ludacris was, at one point, thought of as a southern rapper. A lot of people knew he was going to be a superstar, even though he wasn't at that time.
Oliver I have tremendous amounts of respect for what you, John, et al. do... but that said, the just because critics didn't talk about southern rap five years ago doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been talked about... it wasn't on a lot of people's radars, but those people were and are often the last to know about anything in hip-hop. Now you know I don't hold your "disconnected from the streets" status against you, but labels, artists, and fans were all very interested in Southern hip-hop, even back then.
Ludacris was, at one point, thought of as a southern rapper. A lot of people knew he was going to be a superstar, even though he wasn't at that time.
Besides the fact that you knew shit was gonna blow in ATL once Too Short moved from Oakland to Atlanta because he saw it coming (though he hasn't capitilizwed as much as I thought he would)... And that was well over 10 years ago.
Keep in mind - a large part I wanted to put the book together was to cobble together well-written essay on hip-hop, something that I felt like wasn't being done elsewhere. In that respect, I fully accept the responsibility that the book was driven from the perspective of critics rather than doing it from a more street-level, populist point of view.
I don't remotely apologize for that either - I'm not saying that defiantly, it just happens to be the kind of book I wanted to do even if I knew I'd be crafting a different list of "important albums" from what others might come up with.
Keep in mind too: I had guidelines put on me by the editor, namely how many pages total my book could be. Therefore, I could NOT open the umbrella too wide to include everything that COULD fall into contention.
Honestly? If I could have done the book I really would have wanted to do? It'd be twice as long. I would have LOVED to see some smart essays written about Redman or Luda (well, actually, I'm REALLY not sure about Luda) or UGK or [insert your favorite rapper] here.
Alas, i didn't have a publisher who saw it that way. Those are the breaks.
Oliver I have tremendous amounts of respect for what you, John, et al. do... but that said, the just because critics didn't talk about southern rap five years ago doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been talked about... it wasn't on a lot of people's radars, but those people were and are often the last to know about anything in hip-hop. Now you know I don't hold your "disconnected from the streets" status against you, but labels, artists, and fans were all very interested in Southern hip-hop, even back then.
Ludacris was, at one point, thought of as a southern rapper. A lot of people knew he was going to be a superstar, even though he wasn't at that time.
Now you know I don't hold your "disconnected from the streets" status against you, but labels, artists, and fans were all very interested in Southern hip-hop, even back then.
You know I thug 'em, fuck 'em, love 'em, leave 'em Cause I don't fuckin' need 'em Take 'em out the hood Keep 'em looking good But I don't fuckin' feed em First time they fuss I'm breezin' Talking 'bout what's the reasons I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch Better trust and believe 'em In a cut where I keep 'em 'Til I need a nut 'Til I need to be (in) the guts The it's beep-beep and I'm pickin 'em up Let 'em play with the dick in the truck Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist incuffs Divorce him and split his bucks Just because you got good head I'mma break bread So you can be livin' it up Shit I part's wit nothin Y'all be frontin' Me give my heart to a woman Not for nothin' never happen' I'll be forever mackin' Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion I got no patience and I hate waitin' Hoe get your ass in
UGK can Ri-I-I-I-I-ide on that. The biggest song they'll ever be on. So if the South has been running things for however long, why's that the case. Bun Bs verse was sick, no question, but don't let it blind you to who's really president.
and no UGK album will ever equal It Takes a Nation... I'm sorry.
word now tha i can understand and makes more sense... business right.. have to make money...
Anyway iw as not trying to be hypercritical, lord knows any list I cmae up with would feel the wrath of almost everyone on this board. So I return to lurking...
Hey you know what, having not yet read the book in full I was only loosely offering criticism of it, more at this point just stepping in the discussion here. Again, everyone has great ideas if it were their book but yall did just fine.
You really don't feel luda? I don't think he's made one good album but I do think he's one of the nicest MCs in the game.
I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. But depsite high sales by Southern artists in 2000 I personally don't feel like there was a national awareness that swung South the same way it exists now. I'm sure it did for you because you're like that and I don't know....maybe the kids around the way where you live in Harlem were straight banging bounce on the block. Maybe 2000 was the beginning of the tipping point but I don't think it tipped over yet.
This point is academic in any case. I think everyone can probably agree that hip-hop's spatial alignment has forever been rocked out of its NY-centric axis.
Nah, not trying to establish myself as "Next Level" at all, but I lived in Atlanta up until August of 2000, and pretty much all I had heard for the preceding 2-3 years on the radio or when I stepped outside was southern rap. And to be clear, I'm talking about artists with a major deals who were being played on the local Clear Channel affilliate. If you can nail down a tipping point, it was probably 1998.
You know I thug 'em, fuck 'em, love 'em, leave 'em Cause I don't fuckin' need 'em Take 'em out the hood Keep 'em looking good But I don't fuckin' feed em First time they fuss I'm breezin' Talking 'bout what's the reasons I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch Better trust and believe 'em In a cut where I keep 'em 'Til I need a nut 'Til I need to be (in) the guts The it's beep-beep and I'm pickin 'em up Let 'em play with the dick in the truck Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist incuffs Divorce him and split his bucks Just because you got good head I'mma break bread So you can be livin' it up Shit I part's wit nothin Y'all be frontin' Me give my heart to a woman Not for nothin' never happen' I'll be forever mackin' Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion I got no patience and I hate waitin' Hoe get your ass in
UGK can Ri-I-I-I-I-ide on that. The biggest song they'll ever be on. So if the South has been running things for however long, why's that the case. Bun Bs verse was sick, no question, but don't let it blind you to who's really president.
and no UGK album will ever equal It Takes a Nation... I'm sorry.
I wasn't being sarcastic - I think you probably are fairly well attuned into what's hot in the streets given where you've lived and your general hip-hop acumen. That's more "next level" than folks who follow hip-hop ONLY through the radio or ONLY through magazines, etc.
And just to make this clear: I'm really enjoying this convo - I'm not feeling remotely defensive about anything. Fuck man, I'm just glad anyone's reading teh book.
We sold NEGATIVE 88 copies last year, ok? That's what lack of promotion will do for you. Or not, better said. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing and in hindsight, trying to write a dissertation and promote your own book = for either!
1998 = the tipping point? That feels too early to me. I mean, you're still talking about when Biggie's second album dropped, before Puffy's album, Jay-Z was on his third album, Black Star dropped, etc. I still think the NY-centrism was in full effect despite whatever gains were being made from under the Mason-Dixon.
Faux,
I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. But depsite high sales by Southern artists in 2000 I personally don't feel like there was a national awareness that swung South the same way it exists now. I'm sure it did for you because you're like that and I don't know....maybe the kids around the way where you live in Harlem were straight banging bounce on the block. Maybe 2000 was the beginning of the tipping point but I don't think it tipped over yet.
This point is academic in any case. I think everyone can probably agree that hip-hop's spatial alignment has forever been rocked out of its NY-centric axis.
Nah, not trying to establish myself as "Next Level" at all, but I lived in Atlanta up until August of 2000, and pretty much all I had heard for the preceding 2-3 years on the radio or when I stepped outside was southern rap. And to be clear, I'm talking about artists with a major deals who were being played on the local Clear Channel affilliate. If you can nail down a tipping point, it was probably 1998.
UGK can Ri-I-I-I-I-ide on that. The biggest song they'll ever be on. So if the South has been running things for however long, why's that the case. Bun Bs verse was sick, no question, but don't let it blind you to who's really president.
The pendulum has swung fully in the other direction. Why do you think most of the suprise Hov verses these days are for dudes like Jeezy, Mike Jones and Aztec???
I think a whole lot of folks nationwide are eagerly anticipating some new UGK at this point
or Luda (well, actually, I'm REALLY not sure about Luda)
my nickel: he falls into that non-mc, entertainer category. has he ever battled? i'm guessing his punchlines could be something.
commercially he's strictly a singles artist. i don't think he made anything jump off. if anything, he jumped in.
Singles like no other. But that first album he dropped was bananas. Everyone was playing the hell out of that in the South, and heearing it up north too.. And he was doing stuff before that but just had never been able to break out.
And battlin doesn't have anything to do with it... Jin was a battler and how did his album do... Most battlers aren't dropping dope albums.
When a bookstore doesn't sell throuogh its stock, they return it to the publisher and that counts as a negative sale. So basically, regardless of how many peoplle bought the book last year, at least 88 MORE copies were returned to the publisher.
I wasn't being sarcastic - I think you probably are fairly well attuned into what's hot in the streets given where you've lived and your general hip-hop acumen. That's more "next level" than folks who follow hip-hop ONLY through the radio or ONLY through magazines, etc.
And just to make this clear: I'm really enjoying this convo - I'm not feeling remotely defensive about anything. Fuck man, I'm just glad anyone's reading teh book.
We sold NEGATIVE 88 copies last year, ok? That's what lack of promotion will do for you. Or not, better said. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing and in hindsight, trying to write a dissertation and promote your own book = for either!
1998 = the tipping point? That feels too early to me. I mean, you're still talking about when Biggie's second album dropped, before Puffy's album, Jay-Z was on his third album, Black Star dropped, etc. I still think the NY-centrism was in full effect despite whatever gains were being made from under the Mason-Dixon.
Well, I was indulging in a little hyperbole in my last post... it's not as if southern rap in 1998--or at any point subsequent--was completely blotting out rap from New York. I heard No Way Out and Harlem World plenty in Atlanta that year. But what we're arguing about--I think--is when the South emerged as a major presence in rap, and I think 1998 was the year. No Limit was at its peak (P sold 4 million of his own records that year and millions more of other people's), and Cash Money had just done the deal with Universal and was ascendent. GooDie MoB and Outkast came with very strong albums. 'Face dropped what was probably his weakest record, but it still did real well for him commercially. And when Snoop left Deathrow that year, who did he sign with? A southern label.
And Black Star? Were any significant number of people--even in New York--ever really checking for them?
Well, I was indulging in a little hyperbole in my last post... it's not as if southern rap in 1998--or at any point subsequent--was completely blotting out rap from New York. I heard No Way Out and Harlem World plenty in Atlanta that year. But what we're arguing about--I think--is when the South emerged as a major presence in rap, and I think 1998 was the year. No Limit was at its peak (P sold 4 million of his own records that year and millions more of other people's), and Cash Money had just done the deal with Universal and was ascendent. GooDie MoB and Outkast came with very strong albums. 'Face dropped what was probably his weakest record, but it still did real well for him commercially. And when Snoop left Deathrow that year, who did he sign with? A southern label.
And Black Star? Were any significant number of people--even in New York--ever really checking for them?
Just to bring this back...if a similar book were underway today, would it make more sense to break things down by region? Or to put it a different way, how does one construct a clear criteria that can capture all the exceptions? Or is that futile to begin with?
I'm not just asking hypothetically - there is a stunning paucity of hip-hop album guides out there, a trend which I think will surely change over the next five years. What kind of basic rules do you think any future books would/should have to ascribe to?
i'm not debating his verses on track, but personally if any MC is going to be considered in a top 5, i'm gonna wonder how they perform on the spot
as for his influence, he may have become an extremely popular artist but he didn't really change the game. he jumped in at an opportune point and blew the fuck up.
even now, despite the gratutitous handful of 'southern' tracks he doles out on LP, he's all about the charts. his 1st lp was his only album remotely ressembling an 'album'.
i dunno, this whole thread has my perceptions functioning on 8 different time/space/probability planes right now
What kind of basic rules do you think any future books would/should have to ascribe to?
Rule number one: do not involve Peter Shapiro in the process in any way
Spill. What's your issue? I thought Peter did a really impressive job with the 2nd edition of the Rough Guide to Hip-Hop and I've only heard good things about his recent book on disco.
Yo, let me ask y'all southern rap dudes a question (and no, I'm not being sarcastic like some of my recent posts): as far as sales go, hasn't southern rap been more dominant overall than NYC-centric rap for a lot longer than just since 1998? Seems like I remember people talking about these down south dudes who I never heard of who were selling hundreds of thousands of records on the indy tip regionally way back when Brand Nubian and Kool G Rap were dropping hip hop classics and couldn't even go gold on major labels. What I'm wondering is has it really just been a thing all these years that the media was focusing on east coast artists when in reality most of the country (which is, indeed, country) wanted that down south schitt all along? I have a lot of theories on this, but I really don't have any numbers to back anything up and I know very little about the history of southern rap. Any educated insight is appreciated.
Comments
But the South was running rap five years ago. "Five years ago" now = 2000. No Limit and Cash Money had sold millions of records and were, in fact, already on the decline at that point. You guys keep acting as if all this schitt happened yesterday.
And as for the NY/LA axis, that too is relatively ancient history. The last great record to come out of the nineties LA dynasty and really matter nationally was Makavelli, and that's nine years ago.
I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. But depsite high sales by Southern artists in 2000 I personally don't feel like there was a national awareness that swung South the same way it exists now. I'm sure it did for you because you're
This point is academic in any case. I think everyone can probably agree that hip-hop's spatial alignment has forever been rocked out of its NY-centric axis.
Ludacris was, at one point, thought of as a southern rapper. A lot of people knew he was going to be a superstar, even though he wasn't at that time.
Besides the fact that you knew shit was gonna blow in ATL once Too Short moved from Oakland to Atlanta because he saw it coming (though he hasn't capitilizwed as much as I thought he would)... And that was well over 10 years ago.
That's a fair criticism.
Keep in mind - a large part I wanted to put the book together was to cobble together well-written essay on hip-hop, something that I felt like wasn't being done elsewhere. In that respect, I fully accept the responsibility that the book was driven from the perspective of critics rather than doing it from a more street-level, populist point of view.
I don't remotely apologize for that either - I'm not saying that defiantly, it just happens to be the kind of book I wanted to do even if I knew I'd be crafting a different list of "important albums" from what others might come up with.
Keep in mind too: I had guidelines put on me by the editor, namely how many pages total my book could be. Therefore, I could NOT open the umbrella too wide to include everything that COULD fall into contention.
Honestly? If I could have done the book I really would have wanted to do? It'd be twice as long. I would have LOVED to see some smart essays written about Redman or Luda (well, actually, I'm REALLY not sure about Luda) or UGK or [insert your favorite rapper] here.
Alas, i didn't have a publisher who saw it that way. Those are the breaks.
Cause I don't fuckin' need 'em
Take 'em out the hood
Keep 'em looking good
But I don't fuckin' feed em
First time they fuss I'm breezin'
Talking 'bout what's the reasons
I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch
Better trust and believe 'em
In a cut where I keep 'em
'Til I need a nut
'Til I need to be (in) the guts
The it's beep-beep and I'm pickin 'em up
Let 'em play with the dick in the truck
Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist incuffs
Divorce him and split his bucks
Just because you got good head
I'mma break bread
So you can be livin' it up
Shit I part's wit nothin
Y'all be frontin'
Me give my heart to a woman
Not for nothin' never happen'
I'll be forever mackin'
Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion
I got no patience and I hate waitin'
Hoe get your ass in
UGK can Ri-I-I-I-I-ide on that. The biggest song they'll ever be on. So if the South has been running things for however long, why's that the case. Bun Bs verse was sick, no question, but don't let it blind you to who's really president.
and no UGK album will ever equal It Takes a Nation... I'm sorry.
Anyway iw as not trying to be hypercritical, lord knows any list I cmae up with would feel the wrath of almost everyone on this board. So I return to lurking...
You really don't feel luda? I don't think he's made one good album but I do think he's one of the nicest MCs in the game.
Nah, not trying to establish myself as "Next Level" at all, but I lived in Atlanta up until August of 2000, and pretty much all I had heard for the preceding 2-3 years on the radio or when I stepped outside was southern rap. And to be clear, I'm talking about artists with a major deals who were being played on the local Clear Channel affilliate. If you can nail down a tipping point, it was probably 1998.
Your insecurity is showing like some dirty draws.
I wasn't being sarcastic - I think you probably are fairly well attuned into what's hot in the streets given where you've lived and your general hip-hop acumen. That's more "next level" than folks who follow hip-hop ONLY through the radio or ONLY through magazines, etc.
And just to make this clear: I'm really enjoying this convo - I'm not feeling remotely defensive about anything. Fuck man, I'm just glad anyone's reading teh book.
We sold NEGATIVE 88 copies last year, ok? That's what lack of promotion will do for you. Or not, better said. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing and in hindsight, trying to write a dissertation and promote your own book =
1998 = the tipping point? That feels too early to me. I mean, you're still talking about when Biggie's second album dropped, before Puffy's album, Jay-Z was on his third album, Black Star dropped, etc. I still think the NY-centrism was in full effect despite whatever gains were being made from under the Mason-Dixon.
The pendulum has swung fully in the other direction. Why do you think most of the suprise Hov verses these days are for dudes like Jeezy, Mike Jones and Aztec???
I think a whole lot of folks nationwide are eagerly anticipating some new UGK at this point
Maybe im an idiot, but how is this possible.
I know i bought one last year.
my nickel: he falls into that non-mc, entertainer category. has he ever battled? i'm guessing his punchlines could be something.
commercially he's strictly a singles artist. i don't think he made anything jump off. if anything, he jumped in.
Singles like no other. But that first album he dropped was bananas. Everyone was playing the hell out of that in the South, and heearing it up north too.. And he was doing stuff before that but just had never been able to break out.
And battlin doesn't have anything to do with it... Jin was a battler and how did his album do... Most battlers aren't dropping dope albums.
= "notorious thugs"
although that's technically midwest, i think it's important to this discussion.
When a bookstore doesn't sell throuogh its stock, they return it to the publisher and that counts as a negative sale. So basically, regardless of how many peoplle bought the book last year, at least 88 MORE copies were returned to the publisher.
Well, I was indulging in a little hyperbole in my last post... it's not as if southern rap in 1998--or at any point subsequent--was completely blotting out rap from New York. I heard No Way Out and Harlem World plenty in Atlanta that year. But what we're arguing about--I think--is when the South emerged as a major presence in rap, and I think 1998 was the year. No Limit was at its peak (P sold 4 million of his own records that year and millions more of other people's), and Cash Money had just done the deal with Universal and was ascendent. GooDie MoB and Outkast came with very strong albums. 'Face dropped what was probably his weakest record, but it still did real well for him commercially. And when Snoop left Deathrow that year, who did he sign with? A southern label.
And Black Star? Were any significant number of people--even in New York--ever really checking for them?
+ Jigga jumped on the "Ha" remix as well as on at least one No Limit release.
Not in my hood.
Oliver
Damn, that's right. "Ha" and the remix got heavy play in NYC. I was living in the BX, where I definitely heard it a lot.
I'm not just asking hypothetically - there is a stunning paucity of hip-hop album guides out there, a trend which I think will surely change over the next five years. What kind of basic rules do you think any future books would/should have to ascribe to?
Rule number one: do not involve Peter Shapiro in the process in any way
i'm not debating his verses on track, but personally if any MC is going to be considered in a top 5, i'm gonna wonder how they perform on the spot
as for his influence, he may have become an extremely popular artist but he didn't really change the game. he jumped in at an opportune point and blew the fuck up.
even now, despite the gratutitous handful of 'southern' tracks he doles out on LP, he's all about the charts. his 1st lp was his only album remotely ressembling an 'album'.
i dunno, this whole thread has my perceptions functioning on 8 different time/space/probability planes right now
:canigetacalicushgraemlin:
Spill. What's your issue? I thought Peter did a really impressive job with the 2nd edition of the Rough Guide to Hip-Hop and I've only heard good things about his recent book on disco.