I don't think there was, and the album was loaded with high-profile guests: Faith, Pharell, Kanye, WC, Deborah Cox (I think? maybe Kelly Price?), Nas, and of course Jay-Z. There were three more songs on there at least that could've done well.
This might be my favorite hip-hop album of the last five years.
Even one of the real laidback cuts where he goes into his old man/preacher routine might've worked.
"Heaven" (prod. by Kanye) was my favorite cut on that record, along with "Safe", "In Cold Blood", and Pharell's joint "Some Day" (I think that's what it's called).... Those all would've worked.
you know what's weird? when i read this post i thought about big pimpin but kinda just figured that's what haz was refering to with the "2 years ago". it feels like that record came out just yesterday, not half a decade. is that a 'classic' yet?
Without a doubt.
on recent listen I realized jay's part has not aged well at all...
To be honest, I couldn't quote you a single line from Jay's verse on that record--Bun B pretty much owned it. Actually, didn't Jay add a second verse to the single version or something? Presumably so people would remember whose record it was.
I think his delivery sounds really forced and awkward the whole time (making me think about his early 90s stuff actually) but the particularly egregious lines may be in this 'bonus verse' ("I'm impatient/and I hate waitin" makes me cringe every time)
you know what's weird? when i read this post i thought about big pimpin but kinda just figured that's what haz was refering to with the "2 years ago". it feels like that record came out just yesterday, not half a decade. is that a 'classic' yet?
Without a doubt.
on recent listen I realized jay's part has not aged well at all...
To be honest, I couldn't quote you a single line from Jay's verse on that record--Bun B pretty much owned it. Actually, didn't Jay add a second verse to the single version or something? Presumably so people would remember whose record it was.
I think his delivery sounds really forced and awkward the whole time (making me think about his early 90s stuff actually) but the particularly egregious lines may be in this 'bonus verse' ("I'm impatient/and I hate waitin" makes me cringe every time)
With all due respect, PIMP C owned that record.
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
I know in NYC they added an extra verse from Jay at the end, which was equally cringe-inducing.
and thats a shame BUT his graf skills are real real nice... and i hear hes a nice guy as well.. that says a lot about a persons character right there...
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
this verse probably still pops in my head at least once a week.
i thought it was pretty interesting in that houston so real interview where pimp said he tried to adopt big gipp's flow for this cut because he couldn't figure out how to ride the beat.
you know what's weird? when i read this post i thought about big pimpin but kinda just figured that's what haz was refering to with the "2 years ago". it feels like that record came out just yesterday, not half a decade. is that a 'classic' yet?
Without a doubt.
on recent listen I realized jay's part has not aged well at all...
To be honest, I couldn't quote you a single line from Jay's verse on that record--Bun B pretty much owned it. Actually, didn't Jay add a second verse to the single version or something? Presumably so people would remember whose record it was.
I think his delivery sounds really forced and awkward the whole time (making me think about his early 90s stuff actually) but the particularly egregious lines may be in this 'bonus verse' ("I'm impatient/and I hate waitin" makes me cringe every time)
With all due respect, PIMP C owned that record.
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
I know in NYC they added an extra verse from Jay at the end, which was equally cringe-inducing.
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
this verse probably still pops in my head at least once a week.
i thought it was pretty interesting in that houston so real interview where pimp said he tried to adopt big gipp's flow for this cut because he couldn't figure out how to ride the beat.
I never heard that but it makes a lot of sense... I always liked Gippp....
Maybe Faux_Rillz can illuminate why Gipp is like the mayor of Atlanta or something
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
this verse probably still pops in my head at least once a week.
i thought it was pretty interesting in that houston so real interview where pimp said he tried to adopt big gipp's flow for this cut because he couldn't figure out how to ride the beat.
I never heard that but it makes a lot of sense... I always liked Gippp....
Maybe Faux_Rillz can illuminate why Gipp is like the mayor of Atlanta or something
The dude just seemed to be everywhere--like he has Saddam style body doubles or something.
Couple of questions Faux is raising so let me try to answer them over the course of a few posts.
First of all, understand that this was a book about ALBUMS first and artists second. Maybe you think that's a bullshit criteria but bottomline, that's the concept this was built around. This meant that artists who had cut incredible singles, but not albums, often didn't make the cut. The most obvious exclusion on this level was Missy/Timbaland. I'll address her later specifically. My point here is that it changes the terms of selection compared to other, bigger guides, like the ROugh Guide to Hip-Hop for example which is artist-based rather than album-based.
Q: How were the albums chosen? A: This is actually addressed in the introduction but to sum up: in figuring out what to put in the book, I assembled a small circle of senior contributors - people who I felt represented a diversity of voices, opinions and experience. That included: Jeff Chang (writer, author of "Can't Stop, Won't Stop"), Jon Caramanica (writer: XXL, NY Times, Rolling Stone), Joseph Patel (MTV producer: "My Block" series), Hua Hus (writer: The Wire, Slate), Dave Tompkins (writer: you name it), Tony Green (writer: WMNF, Souce, Vibe, Spin, Village Voice, etc.), Lizz Berry (writer: Village Voice, now Time), Peter Shapiro (writer, author of "The Rough Guide to Hip-Hop - both editions).
What I did was compile a huge master list of albums - I actually turned to the Ego Trip's year-by-year lists as one resource. Then, gradually, the contributor team and myself whittled that down to the final list that appeared. There were several albums that teetered on the verge - including UGK, Special Ed, Missy, Black Moon, etc. In the end, sometimes the collective vetoed their inclusion, sometimes I did. It wasn't arbitrary but it wasn't like we could apply a really firm, objective set of criteria as well. I knew there was no way to make everyone happy and as I stressed in my introduction:
"This endeavor, by nature, is canon-building, and part of the irony here is that so much of hip-hop's history has involved crushing canons. Yet, it's also important to at least designate a starting point. Classic Material is not arguing that every album not included in the pages herein is somehow deficient or unimportant."
I know that, as a blanket statement, this doesn't obviate any responsibility I have for the EXCLUSIONS from the list but I just want to make note: I was well-aware of the challenges that this book was fraught with in terms of being a canon-making exercise and I always tried to stay aware of that throughout.
A: The book was largely put together in the summer of 2002 and while the Southern scene was big, a lot of us (us = the senior contributors) didn't have the foresight to see how big it would get. If I remember correctly, Jon wrote the Geto Boys/Scarface piece and originally, he did have UGK as part of that trio but in the end, took it out because he felt like the piece was getting too unwieldly. To me, I felt like UGK were huge on a local level but hadn't had the national kind of influence as the Geto Boys or Scarface, so I accepted Jon's decision. Moreover, people like Jon, Joey, Dave and especially Tony were huge fans of Southern hip-hop (more than me) and they weren't clamoring for more albums.
THIS SAID - if I had put the same book together in the summer of 2005, things would be much different, simply in reflection of the tenor of the times. There would almost certainly be more Southern albums in the book - UGK, no question. "The Fix" would almnost certainly have been added to the Scarface/Geto Boys entry. Maybe Eightball and MJG.
But in 2002, the Southern scene hadn't - in our opinion - really broken out on national level to the degree where, today, someone like Young Jeezy plays bigger in NY than a lot of NY cats. In 2005, the proverbial game has changed and the book would have reflected that shift. By that same token, Cannibal Ox wouldn't have made my 2005 cut. Neither would have Black Star. Even just three years ago, the indie hip-hop movement felt more vital, more likely to be something important. Instead, it imploded under its own weight and most of the "big" artists/albums that came out of that went on to rule over tiny, parochial kingdoms (if even that). Not sure about Co Flow - I think we still would have kept that.
....and Pharell's joint "Some Day" (I think that's what it's called).... Those all would've worked.
There was a single for that, although I never did see a video. I thought that was a good choice for a single too but I guess it got lost in the mix. I agree with Noz and JP, that was one of my favorite albums in recent memory.
you know what's weird? when i read this post i thought about big pimpin but kinda just figured that's what haz was refering to with the "2 years ago". it feels like that record came out just yesterday, not half a decade. is that a 'classic' yet?
Without a doubt.
on recent listen I realized jay's part has not aged well at all...
To be honest, I couldn't quote you a single line from Jay's verse on that record--Bun B pretty much owned it. Actually, didn't Jay add a second verse to the single version or something? Presumably so people would remember whose record it was.
I think his delivery sounds really forced and awkward the whole time (making me think about his early 90s stuff actually) but the particularly egregious lines may be in this 'bonus verse' ("I'm impatient/and I hate waitin" makes me cringe every time)
With all due respect, PIMP C owned that record.
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK EVERYBODY WANNA BALL HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
I know in NYC they added an extra verse from Jay at the end, which was equally cringe-inducing.
I don't know. Bun B's verse = flow clinic
and then some...more like a flow seminar
"Nigga it's the - big Southern rap impresario Comin straight up out the black bar-rio Makes a mill' up off a sorry hoe Then sit back and peep my sce-nawr-e-oh Oops, my bad, that's my scenario No I can't fuck a scary hoe Now every time, every place, everywhere we go Hoes start pointin - they say, "There he go!" Now these motherfuckers know we carry mo' heat than a little bit We don't pull it out over little shit And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up yo' vocab Don't be surprised if yo' hoe stab out with me and you see us comin down on yo' slab Livin ghetto-fabulous, so mad, you just can't take it But nigga if you hatin I then you wait while I get yo' bitch butt-naked, just break it You gotta pay like you weigh wet wit two pairs of clothes on Now get yo' ass to the back as I'm flyin to the track Timbaland let me spit my pro's on Pump it up in the pro-zone That's the track that we breakin these hoes on Ain't the track that we flow's on But when shit get hot, then the glock start poppin like ozone We keep hoes crunk like Trigger-man Fo' real it don't get no bigger man Don't trip, let's flip, gettin throwed on the flip Gettin blowed with the motherfuckin Jigga Man, fool"
"Nigga it's the - big Southern rap impresario Comin straight up out the black bar-rio Makes a mill' up off a sorry hoe Then sit back and peep my sce-nawr-e-oh Oops, my bad, that's my scenario No I can't fuck a scary hoe Now every time, every place, everywhere we go Hoes start pointin - they say, "There he go!" Now these motherfuckers know we carry mo' heat than a little bit We don't pull it out over little shit And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up yo' vocab Don't be surprised if yo' hoe stab out with me and you see us comin down on yo' slab Livin ghetto-fabulous, so mad, you just can't take it But nigga if you hatin I then you wait while I get yo' bitch butt-naked, just break it You gotta pay like you weigh wet wit two pairs of clothes on Now get yo' ass to the back as I'm flyin to the track Timbaland let me spit my pro's on Pump it up in the pro-zone That's the track that we breakin these hoes on Ain't the track that we flow's on But when shit get hot, then the glock start poppin like ozone We keep hoes crunk like Trigger-man Fo' real it don't get no bigger man Don't trip, let's flip, gettin throwed on the flip Gettin blowed with the motherfuckin Jigga Man, fool"
Not sure about Co Flow - I think we still would have kept that.
And I don't think I would hassle you over either that record or Dr. Octagon had you included it. As much as I really don't care for either of those records, I think they marked the emergence of a new phenomenon, and I was trying to come up with a good way of articulating the elements of the rise of what a lot of us now call "nerd rap". It seems to me that these two records were kind of unique in that they were intensely interesting to people who were A) music nerds, and who B) didn't otherwise like rap. This marks a departure from previous releases that had either A) reached a crossover audience that wasn't just limited to music nerds, or B) crossed over to music nerds that had at least a passing interest in rap. These are the first two rap records I recall people who disliked rap--and weren't shy about expressing it--but who were intensely interested in music enthusing over. I definitely recall at the time thinking that something a little weird was going on.
Now the big question: Would you still include Freestyle Fellowship?
I know in NYC they added an extra verse from Jay at the end, which was equally cringe-inducing.
"on the canopy, my stamina be, enough for pamela anderson lee"...
honestly, i think jay sounds better than bun b on this record... "read a book you illerate son of bitch" is easily the most cringe-worthy line on the track...
A: No one asked this but it deserves to be asked. This is definitely an area where the "albums over artists" clause created exclusions that wouldn't have happened the other way around. The truth is: there have been many important female artists but not nearly as many important albums by those women.
With Missy - I think in 2005, I would have definitely included her, A) because she's been one of the most interesting figures of the last 10 years and B) Timbaland's production can't be fronted on. Moreover, I think "Under Construction" could have been the album that would have brought this all together.
Q: What albums/artists would you include/exclude on a second edition?
A: Include: UGK (multiple albums) Missy's "Under Contruction" Scarface's "The Fix" Kool G Rap (1st and/or 2nd albums) Clipse's "Lord Willin" Kanye West's "College Dropout" 50 Cent's "Get Rich..." (actually, I'd be on the fence with this myself but I have a feeling the consensus would be to include it. I'm really ambivalent).
Exclude: Beatnuts Cannibal Ox Casual Black Star (unless we paired that with Mos Def's first album and Kanye's album)
On the Fence to either including or exclude: +E-40 (another case of an important artist but not necessarily an album-maker) +Dr. Octogon (maybe I would have put this in instad of Can Ox) +Eightball and MJG +Lord Finesse
-Brand Nubian -Fugees/Wyclef (Lauryn would stay) -Ice T -The Roots
And just on a teeny-tiny note: I thought Jon should have written about "Supreme Clientele" not "Ironman" but that's just a personal preference.
Any other questions? Seriously, I don't mind fielding them as long as they're asked in a constructive manner. I don't mind if people have passionate disagreements with the book - that's the nature of the beast.
That said - to 33 1/3 - You should at least do more than read the table of contents before passing judgement on the book. At least Daniel bothered to read it. Your opinion is akin to looking an album's liner notes, maybe doing some needle-drops, and then declaring, "ah, this is trash."
Not sure about Co Flow - I think we still would have kept that.
And I don't think I would hassle you over either that record or Dr. Octagon had you included it. As much as I really don't care for either of those records, I think they marked the emergence of a new phenomenon, and I was trying to come up with a good way of articulating the elements of the rise of what a lot of us now call "nerd rap". It seems to me that these two records were kind of unique in that they were intensely interesting to people who were A) music nerds, and who B) didn't otherwise like rap. This marks a departure from previous releases that had either A) reached a crossover audience that wasn't just limited to music nerds, or B) crossed over to music nerds that had at least a passing interest in rap. These are the first two rap records I recall people who disliked rap--and weren't shy about expressing it--but who were intensely interested in music enthusing over. I definitely recall at the time thinking that something a little weird was going on.
Now the big question: Would you still include Freestyle Fellowship?
Absolutely. You can trace a direct line from the FF album to an entire movement on the West Coast that would have certainly included the Pharcyde, Solesides, Hiero, not to mention the precursor for stuff like the Likwit Crew, Xzibit, etc. Are they THE most influential WC artists ever? Of course not...but FF's first album was the catalyst for just as much as Co Flow and definitely more so than Dr. Oct. I mean, that album is like Nerd Rap Prime in many ways.
Man, just to be clear: I like the book, and have now read it twice.
But making lists and then arguing over their contents is also exactly the type of exercise that appeals to the obsessive-compulsive elements of my personality.
And you're not even on the fence about Redman? Damn.
Not sure about Co Flow - I think we still would have kept that.
And I don't think I would hassle you over either that record or Dr. Octagon had you included it. As much as I really don't care for either of those records, I think they marked the emergence of a new phenomenon, and I was trying to come up with a good way of articulating the elements of the rise of what a lot of us now call "nerd rap". It seems to me that these two records were kind of unique in that they were intensely interesting to people who were A) music nerds, and who B) didn't otherwise like rap. This marks a departure from previous releases that had either A) reached a crossover audience that wasn't just limited to music nerds, or B) crossed over to music nerds that had at least a passing interest in rap. These are the first two rap records I recall people who disliked rap--and weren't shy about expressing it--but who were intensely interested in music enthusing over. I definitely recall at the time thinking that something a little weird was going on.
Now the big question: Would you still include Freestyle Fellowship?
Absolutely. You can trace a direct line from the FF album to an entire movement on the West Coast that would have certainly included the Pharcyde, Solesides, Hiero, not to mention the precursor for stuff like the Likwit Crew, Xzibit, etc. Are they THE most influential WC artists ever? Of course not...but FF's first album was the catalyst for just as much as Co Flow and definitely more so than Dr. Oct. I mean, that album is like Nerd Rap Prime in many ways.
Man, just to be clear: I like the book, and have now read it twice.
But making lists and then arguing over their contents is also exactly the type of exercise that appeals to the obsessive-compulsive elements of my personality.
And you're not even on the fence about Redman? Damn.
Where's that girl fight jpeg?
Sorry, I forgot about Redman. Yeahm, I would have been willing to consider "Whut?" That album was very much on the fence until the bitter end. I think it's a great album to listen to...I just don't find it that influential per se and neither did enough of the rest of the contributing staff.
I could also see bringing "Enta Da Stage" into the book but only attached to a series of other albums, not by itself. I still don't think Special Ed deserves inclusion - Joey (Patel) really pushed for that but no one else backed him up on it, myself included.
A: No one asked this but it deserves to be asked. This is definitely an area where the "albums over artists" clause created exclusions that wouldn't have happened the other way around. The truth is: there have been many important female artists but not nearly as many important albums by those women.
With Missy - I think in 2005, I would have definitely included her, A) because she's been one of the most interesting figures of the last 10 years and B) Timbaland's production can't be fronted on. Moreover, I think "Under Construction" could have been the album that would have brought this all together.
O -
Actually surprised by the paucity of women in the book given Lizz Mendez-Berry's contribution - based on her work/past history in Eye (magazine), Amazon, Village Voice, Vibe, etc., I would've thought that she would've championed for a larger female presence overall... She's now @ Time?
Nah, very important artists, but not really album-oriented. They've definitely got some albums that contain great material, but I can't think of a Three-six album that I would call "great".
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
As for Lizz - yeah, she just took a job at Time. Big tings.
Q: Why aren't there more women?
A: No one asked this but it deserves to be asked. This is definitely an area where the "albums over artists" clause created exclusions that wouldn't have happened the other way around. The truth is: there have been many important female artists but not nearly as many important albums by those women.
With Missy - I think in 2005, I would have definitely included her, A) because she's been one of the most interesting figures of the last 10 years and B) Timbaland's production can't be fronted on. Moreover, I think "Under Construction" could have been the album that would have brought this all together.
O -
Actually surprised by the paucity of women in the book given Lizz Mendez-Berry's contributions - based on her work/past history in Eye (magazine), Amazon, Village Voice, Vibe, etc., I would've thought that she would've championed for a larger female presence overall... She's now @ Time?
+E-40 (another case of an important artist but not necessarily an album-maker)
I>Federal/I>,I>In A Major Way/I> and I>Grit & Grind/I> all beg to differ. The Click's I>Down & Dirty/I> would be a pretty good choice as well.
At least as much of an influence as I>To Whom It May Concern/I> (which, as much as i love it, wasn't exactly a great album in itself). Although I probably don't have to tell you that, you're the one in the bay
+E-40 (another case of an important artist but not necessarily an album-maker)
I>Federal/I>,I>In A Major Way/I> and I>Grit & Grind/I> all beg to differ. The Click's I>Down & Dirty/I> would be a pretty good choice as well.
At least as much of an influence as I>To Whom It May Concern/I> (which, as much as i love it, wasn't exactly a great album in itself). Although I probably don't have to tell you that, you're the one in the bay
+E-40 (another case of an important artist but not necessarily an album-maker)
I>Federal/I>,I>In A Major Way/I> and I>Grit & Grind/I> all beg to differ. The Click's I>Down & Dirty/I> would be a pretty good choice as well.
At least as much of an influence as I>To Whom It May Concern/I> (which, as much as i love it, wasn't exactly a great album in itself). Although I probably don't have to tell you that, you're the one in the bay
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo? Shante? Boss? Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
Comments
"Heaven" (prod. by Kanye) was my favorite cut on that record, along with "Safe", "In Cold Blood", and Pharell's joint "Some Day" (I think that's what it's called).... Those all would've worked.
I think his delivery sounds really forced and awkward the whole time (making me think about his early 90s stuff actually) but the particularly egregious lines may be in this 'bonus verse' ("I'm impatient/and I hate waitin" makes me cringe every time)
Part of its strength lies in how short and concise it is: no filler...
With all due respect, PIMP C owned that record.
SMOKIN OUT, THROWING UP
KEEPIN LEAN UP IN MY CUP
ALL MY CAR GOT LEATHER AND WOOD
IN MY HOOD WE CALL IT BUCK
EVERYBODY WANNA BALL
HOLLA AT BROADS AT THE MALL
IF HE UP WATCH HIM FALL
NIGGA I CANT FUCK WITH YALL
IF I WASNT RAPPIN BABY I WOULD STILL BE RIDIN MERCEDES
CHROME SHININ SIPPIN DAILY, NO RECORD TELL WHY THEY PAY ME
UHHHH, NOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM TEXAS BOYS
COMIN DOWN IN CANDY TOYS, SMOKIN WEED AND TALKIN NOISE
I know in NYC they added an extra verse from Jay at the end, which was equally cringe-inducing.
and thats a shame BUT his graf skills are real real nice... and i hear hes a nice guy as well.. that says a lot about a persons character right there...
this verse probably still pops in my head at least once a week.
i thought it was pretty interesting in that houston so real interview where pimp said he tried to adopt big gipp's flow for this cut because he couldn't figure out how to ride the beat.
I don't know. Bun B's verse = flow clinic
I never heard that but it makes a lot of sense... I always liked Gippp....
Maybe Faux_Rillz can illuminate why Gipp is like the mayor of Atlanta or something
The dude just seemed to be everywhere--like he has Saddam style body doubles or something.
No offense but...
Ok, seriously though.
Couple of questions Faux is raising so let me try to answer them over the course of a few posts.
First of all, understand that this was a book about ALBUMS first and artists second. Maybe you think that's a bullshit criteria but bottomline, that's the concept this was built around. This meant that artists who had cut incredible singles, but not albums, often didn't make the cut. The most obvious exclusion on this level was Missy/Timbaland. I'll address her later specifically. My point here is that it changes the terms of selection compared to other, bigger guides, like the ROugh Guide to Hip-Hop for example which is artist-based rather than album-based.
Q: How were the albums chosen?
A: This is actually addressed in the introduction but to sum up: in figuring out what to put in the book, I assembled a small circle of senior contributors - people who I felt represented a diversity of voices, opinions and experience. That included: Jeff Chang (writer, author of "Can't Stop, Won't Stop"), Jon Caramanica (writer: XXL, NY Times, Rolling Stone), Joseph Patel (MTV producer: "My Block" series), Hua Hus (writer: The Wire, Slate), Dave Tompkins (writer: you name it), Tony Green (writer: WMNF, Souce, Vibe, Spin, Village Voice, etc.), Lizz Berry (writer: Village Voice, now Time), Peter Shapiro (writer, author of "The Rough Guide to Hip-Hop - both editions).
What I did was compile a huge master list of albums - I actually turned to the Ego Trip's year-by-year lists as one resource. Then, gradually, the contributor team and myself whittled that down to the final list that appeared. There were several albums that teetered on the verge - including UGK, Special Ed, Missy, Black Moon, etc. In the end, sometimes the collective vetoed their inclusion, sometimes I did. It wasn't arbitrary but it wasn't like we could apply a really firm, objective set of criteria as well. I knew there was no way to make everyone happy and as I stressed in my introduction:
"This endeavor, by nature, is canon-building, and part of the irony here is that so much of hip-hop's history has involved crushing canons. Yet, it's also important to at least designate a starting point. Classic Material is not arguing that every album not included in the pages herein is somehow deficient or unimportant."
I know that, as a blanket statement, this doesn't obviate any responsibility I have for the EXCLUSIONS from the list but I just want to make note: I was well-aware of the challenges that this book was fraught with in terms of being a canon-making exercise and I always tried to stay aware of that throughout.
To be cont)
A: The book was largely put together in the summer of 2002 and while the Southern scene was big, a lot of us (us = the senior contributors) didn't have the foresight to see how big it would get. If I remember correctly, Jon wrote the Geto Boys/Scarface piece and originally, he did have UGK as part of that trio but in the end, took it out because he felt like the piece was getting too unwieldly. To me, I felt like UGK were huge on a local level but hadn't had the national kind of influence as the Geto Boys or Scarface, so I accepted Jon's decision. Moreover, people like Jon, Joey, Dave and especially Tony were huge fans of Southern hip-hop (more than me) and they weren't clamoring for more albums.
THIS SAID - if I had put the same book together in the summer of 2005, things would be much different, simply in reflection of the tenor of the times. There would almost certainly be more Southern albums in the book - UGK, no question. "The Fix" would almnost certainly have been added to the Scarface/Geto Boys entry. Maybe Eightball and MJG.
But in 2002, the Southern scene hadn't - in our opinion - really broken out on national level to the degree where, today, someone like Young Jeezy plays bigger in NY than a lot of NY cats. In 2005, the proverbial game has changed and the book would have reflected that shift. By that same token, Cannibal Ox wouldn't have made my 2005 cut. Neither would have Black Star. Even just three years ago, the indie hip-hop movement felt more vital, more likely to be something important. Instead, it imploded under its own weight and most of the "big" artists/albums that came out of that went on to rule over tiny, parochial kingdoms (if even that). Not sure about Co Flow - I think we still would have kept that.
Keep reading...
There was a single for that, although I never did see a video. I thought that was a good choice for a single too but I guess it got lost in the mix. I agree with Noz and JP, that was one of my favorite albums in recent memory.
and then some...more like a flow seminar
"Nigga it's the - big Southern rap impresario
Comin straight up out the black bar-rio
Makes a mill' up off a sorry hoe
Then sit back and peep my sce-nawr-e-oh
Oops, my bad, that's my scenario
No I can't fuck a scary hoe
Now every time, every place, everywhere we go
Hoes start pointin - they say, "There he go!"
Now these motherfuckers know we carry mo' heat than a little bit
We don't pull it out over little shit
And if you catch a lick when I spit, then it won't be a little hit
Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up yo' vocab
Don't be surprised if yo' hoe stab out with me
and you see us comin down on yo' slab
Livin ghetto-fabulous, so mad, you just can't take it
But nigga if you hatin I
then you wait while I get yo' bitch butt-naked, just break it
You gotta pay like you weigh wet wit two pairs of clothes on
Now get yo' ass to the back as I'm flyin to the track
Timbaland let me spit my pro's on
Pump it up in the pro-zone
That's the track that we breakin these hoes on
Ain't the track that we flow's on
But when shit get hot, then the glock start poppin like ozone
We keep hoes crunk like Trigger-man
Fo' real it don't get no bigger man
Don't trip, let's flip, gettin throwed on the flip
Gettin blowed with the motherfuckin Jigga Man, fool"
ST8 LAVA
And I don't think I would hassle you over either that record or Dr. Octagon had you included it. As much as I really don't care for either of those records, I think they marked the emergence of a new phenomenon, and I was trying to come up with a good way of articulating the elements of the rise of what a lot of us now call "nerd rap". It seems to me that these two records were kind of unique in that they were intensely interesting to people who were A) music nerds, and who B) didn't otherwise like rap. This marks a departure from previous releases that had either A) reached a crossover audience that wasn't just limited to music nerds, or B) crossed over to music nerds that had at least a passing interest in rap. These are the first two rap records I recall people who disliked rap--and weren't shy about expressing it--but who were intensely interested in music enthusing over. I definitely recall at the time thinking that something a little weird was going on.
Now the big question: Would you still include Freestyle Fellowship?
"on the canopy, my stamina be, enough for pamela anderson lee"...
honestly, i think jay sounds better than bun b on this record... "read a book you illerate son of bitch" is easily the most cringe-worthy line on the track...
A: No one asked this but it deserves to be asked. This is definitely an area where the "albums over artists" clause created exclusions that wouldn't have happened the other way around. The truth is: there have been many important female artists but not nearly as many important albums by those women.
With Missy - I think in 2005, I would have definitely included her, A) because she's been one of the most interesting figures of the last 10 years and B) Timbaland's production can't be fronted on. Moreover, I think "Under Construction" could have been the album that would have brought this all together.
Q: What albums/artists would you include/exclude on a second edition?
A: Include: UGK (multiple albums)
Missy's "Under Contruction"
Scarface's "The Fix"
Kool G Rap (1st and/or 2nd albums)
Clipse's "Lord Willin"
Kanye West's "College Dropout"
50 Cent's "Get Rich..." (actually, I'd be on the fence with this myself but I have a feeling the consensus would be to include it. I'm really ambivalent).
Exclude: Beatnuts
Cannibal Ox
Casual
Black Star (unless we paired that with Mos Def's first album and Kanye's album)
On the Fence to either including or exclude:
+E-40 (another case of an important artist but not necessarily an album-maker)
+Dr. Octogon (maybe I would have put this in instad of Can Ox)
+Eightball and MJG
+Lord Finesse
-Brand Nubian
-Fugees/Wyclef (Lauryn would stay)
-Ice T
-The Roots
And just on a teeny-tiny note: I thought Jon should have written about "Supreme Clientele" not "Ironman" but that's just a personal preference.
Any other questions? Seriously, I don't mind fielding them as long as they're asked in a constructive manner. I don't mind if people have passionate disagreements with the book - that's the nature of the beast.
That said - to 33 1/3 - You should at least do more than read the table of contents before passing judgement on the book. At least Daniel bothered to read it. Your opinion is akin to looking an album's liner notes, maybe doing some needle-drops, and then declaring, "ah, this is trash."
No offense
Absolutely. You can trace a direct line from the FF album to an entire movement on the West Coast that would have certainly included the Pharcyde, Solesides, Hiero, not to mention the precursor for stuff like the Likwit Crew, Xzibit, etc. Are they THE most influential WC artists ever? Of course not...but FF's first album was the catalyst for just as much as Co Flow and definitely more so than Dr. Oct. I mean, that album is like Nerd Rap Prime in many ways.
Man, just to be clear: I like the book, and have now read it twice.
But making lists and then arguing over their contents is also exactly the type of exercise that appeals to the obsessive-compulsive elements of my personality.
And you're not even on the fence about Redman? Damn.
Where's that girl fight jpeg?
Sorry, I forgot about Redman. Yeahm, I would have been willing to consider "Whut?" That album was very much on the fence until the bitter end. I think it's a great album to listen to...I just don't find it that influential per se and neither did enough of the rest of the contributing staff.
I could also see bringing "Enta Da Stage" into the book but only attached to a series of other albums, not by itself. I still don't think Special Ed deserves inclusion - Joey (Patel) really pushed for that but no one else backed him up on it, myself included.
Oh yeah, I also forgot: Three 6 Mafia maybe?
C'mon, now--don't even try to justify that one.
O -
Actually surprised by the paucity of women in the book given Lizz Mendez-Berry's contribution - based on her work/past history in Eye (magazine), Amazon, Village Voice, Vibe, etc., I would've thought that she would've championed for a larger female presence overall... She's now @ Time?
Well...actually...
Well, ok. Point conceded. We should have made an exception and included the "Melodica" EP and left it at that. Call it a Bay Area bias.
Nah, very important artists, but not really album-oriented. They've definitely got some albums that contain great material, but I can't think of a Three-six album that I would call "great".
The problem again is: ok, everyone agrees: we need more women. But what albums?
I would have been down to include MC Lyte's 2nd album but she's already in the book, alongside Latifah.
Yo Yo?
Shante?
Boss?
Heather B?
Seriously - what albums by any of these artists even vaguely passes for a "classic" album? Hell, look at how many of these women charted in Ego Trip's extensive lists (answer: not many at all).
I think Missy would have definitely made the 2nd edition. Beyond that, I really don't know, given the criteria we laid out (i.e. albums over artists).
As for Lizz - yeah, she just took a job at Time. Big tings.
I>Federal/I>,I>In A Major Way/I> and I>Grit & Grind/I> all beg to differ. The Click's I>Down & Dirty/I> would be a pretty good choice as well.
At least as much of an influence as I>To Whom It May Concern/I> (which, as much as i love it, wasn't exactly a great album in itself). Although I probably don't have to tell you that, you're the one in the bay
Seriously.
Freestyle Fellowship over E-40?
Where's Archaic when I need him?
Well, don't tell anybody, but I think this album is really good, although I view it as more of a Biggie album:
I will delete this post in the next two minutes.