Rock, here's where I don't want to be nice to you next time I run into you. Do you seriously believe that racial discrimnation no longer has a significant impact on these patheticly lopsided prison numbers? It's just bad people doing bad things and that's it???
I believe the so-called "War On Drugs" is highly responsible for our prison population problem and yes, this "War" is being waged against mostly poor, undereducated people in both urban and rural areas.
LOL! It's aimed at blacks first and foremost. Are you unable to acknowledge that?
According to the Drug Policy Alliance 38% of drug arrests in the U.S. are of black people....
If we're going to stop this illegal drug insanity we should stop it for the other 62% as well.
. It's ironic, but my mom has the habit of judging the poor for negative circumstances befalling them (bear in mind, mom and I are Black). I always have to point out how their circumstances might drive their behavior to some degrees. An even greater irony is that mom grew up poor!
P,
It seems like your Mom would know this experience a lot better than someone like you or I since she lived it. Likewise my Mom who grew up in the hills of N.C. and didn't have a pair of shoes until she was 5 feels the same way. She always told me opportunity is abundant but ambition and motivation is not. While I understand and agree with the basic premise you presented above I have to admit there is at least a modicum of truth in the words of our Mom that can't be discounted.
According to the Drug Policy Alliance 38% of drug arrests in the U.S. are of black people....
If we're going to stop this illegal drug insanity we should stop it for the other 62% as well.
Aw, come on, you're dodging the question.
Studies show that there's very little difference in drug usage between blacks and whites in the US. But there's an enormous difference in arrest and incarcerations related to drugs that just can't be dismissed.
Why is it so important to people that Rock believes (or admits to believing) that racism is a contributing factor to the over-representation of young black men in US jails?
We go down this path that leads to nowhere every few months.
Rock, here's where I don't want to be nice to you next time I run into you. Do you seriously believe that racial discrimnation no longer has a significant impact on these patheticly lopsided prison numbers? It's just bad people doing bad things and that's it???
I believe the so-called "War On Drugs" is highly responsible for our prison population problem and yes, this "War" is being waged against mostly poor, undereducated people in both urban and rural areas.
LOL! It's aimed at blacks first and foremost. Are you unable to acknowledge that?
According to the Drug Policy Alliance 38% of drug arrests in the U.S. are of black people....
If we're going to stop this illegal drug insanity we should stop it for the other 62% as well.
If only 38% of drug arrests are black, yet the prisons are bursting with black people convicted of drug crimes, that says something about the criminal justice system, doesn't it?
If only 38% of drug arrests are black, yet the prisons are bursting with black people convicted of drug crimes, that says something about the criminal justice system, doesn't it?
Sure.....59% of those convicted are black......and poor....but if we make them legal there will be no arrests and subsequently no convictions......who else in this thread has offered any type of solution whatsoever?
Yikes!
ever heard of the Wackenhutt corporation? i suggest you guys read up on them as some of you may already be investing in them without even knowing it as many hedge fund/mutual fund managers are investing in privatized prison companies. i shudder to think how many people invest in these hedge/mutual funds and don't even know or care where the managers put the money so long as they're getting a nice return. :balla:
wonder if we'd all be investing in this if bush had gotten his wish to privatize social security?
a documentary that goes into great detail about this
american drug war: the last white hope
which you can watch for free here:
topdocumentaryfilms.com/american-drug-war/ watch it if you dare
I live in one of the whitest cities in the country.
My city, or perhaps county (forget), wanted to find out why Blacks were jailed at a disproportionate
number.
There findings were that the majority of the discrepancy came from the number of people jailed because of missed hearings and parole violations.
Blacks were more likely to skip a court date or not stay in contact with a parole officer than whites. Thus they ended up getting jailed. Keep in mind this is city (or county) court, so these tend to be minor offenses.
In an npr report they looked at the problem on a larger scale.
Compare 2 young men arrested for a drug offense.
1 is quickly bailed out by family, advised by lawyer to get a job (dad pulls strings to get one) and enter rehab, shows up for court in suit and tie.
The other does not have the means to meet bail, shows up for court in jail coveralls with public defender who advises a guilty plea.
Who is getting off, who is going to jail?
A lot has to do with socio-economic standing and the ability to make good choices.
Like Stacks was saying.
The "war on drugs" is devasating to the black community....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devastating to low income urban areas.....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devasatating to low income rural areas....Yes
The "war on drugs" is silly and needs to end.....Yes
Do the last one and there will be no need to discuss the first three.
The problem isn't just restricted to drug laws, though. The same systemic racism that leads to the disparity in drug enforcement applies to other types of law enforcement as well. All the way down to traffic tickets.
The problem isn't just restricted to drug laws, though. The same systemic racism that leads to the disparity in drug enforcement applies to other types of law enforcement as well. All the way down to traffic tickets.
The law professor in the initial article/video specifically referenced the governments drug policies and the rights that were taken away from convicted felons as a result and that's why I focused on that issue.
The war on drugs is a joke, the privatizing of prisons is pertinent, but I see no value in debating who is hurt the MOST by these things, let's just fix them.
The problem isn't just restricted to drug laws, though. The same systemic racism that leads to the disparity in drug enforcement applies to other types of law enforcement as well. All the way down to traffic tickets.
The law professor in the initial article/video specifically referenced the governments drug policies and the rights that were taken away from convicted felons as a result and that's why I focused on that issue.
The war on drugs is a joke, the privatizing of prisons is pertinent, but I see no value in debating who is hurt the MOST by these things, let's just fix them.
Is there some reason both problems can't be addressed? It's not like they're unrelated.
I live in one of the whitest cities in the country.
My city, or perhaps county (forget), wanted to find out why Blacks were jailed at a disproportionate
number.
There findings were that the majority of the discrepancy came from the number of people jailed because of missed hearings and parole violations.
Blacks were more likely to skip a court date or not stay in contact with a parole officer than whites. Thus they ended up getting jailed. Keep in mind this is city (or county) court, so these tend to be minor offenses.
The problem isn't just restricted to drug laws, though. The same systemic racism that leads to the disparity in drug enforcement applies to other types of law enforcement as well. All the way down to traffic tickets.
The law professor in the initial article/video specifically referenced the governments drug policies and the rights that were taken away from convicted felons as a result and that's why I focused on that issue.
The war on drugs is a joke, the privatizing of prisons is pertinent, but I see no value in debating who is hurt the MOST by these things, let's just fix them.
Is there some reason both problems can't be addressed? It's not like they're unrelated.
Sure.........I believe decriminalization is the solution to one problem that has only existed for 40 years......let's make that the first step and maybe some of the other issues will be easier to address..
How can one combat institutional racism by not addressing it?
This ^^^. The prison system as it exists, and racism are not unrelated. They are very interdependent. You can't ignore the racial issues and 'fix' the prison-industrial system.
How about Black and White folk looking in the mirror and admitting their hand in racism.
It starts with the people. Humans create and support these Laws and watch the Wire.... :lush:
Maybe on Gum Drop Island there is a magic mirror that people can look into and all the world's problems go away.
But reality is that most humans put themselves and theirs first and foremost.
The professor rightfully singles out the drug laws in our country as resulting in a disproportionate number of black men in prison and the many associated problems it's created. BUT....if you frame it like that, that it's effects are primarily hurting 12% of our population, that's 88% who then think "It's not my problem, it doesn't harm me or mine". This problem truly does touch everyone, some obviously more than others, but it is hurting the entire spectrum of our society in almost countless different ways.
And until you get everyone to realize this, people are not going to make the effort to change, create or support the laws that will fix it. The best motivation for people to reach out and work towards a common goal is when they feel they all have a vested interest in the outcome.
So forgive me for not "admitting" that I believe the "War on Drugs" in our country is primarily a black one. The white dude who has been in prison in Texas since the 70's for smuggling pot has been harmed just as much as the black dude in Baltimore arrested with a vial of crack. If you feel the need to point out that MORE black men/families have been harmed, great, as long as we can agree to fix the damn problem.
This is something I truly believe can be fixed and I hope it happens in my lifetime. But it's going to take everyone realizing that it DOES hit their homes and families to get it done. And based on population alone that has to include ALL people.
This is just one drop in the bucket towards correcting the race relations in our country, but it's the only one I can think of that can be addressed quickly and has a good chance of actually accomplishing something.
One step ahead is a hell of a lot better than spinning wheels or going backwards. Maybe I am naive, but I haven't seen anything but harm and misery come from this "war" that our government has chased with good money after bad and at this point I'm confident enough to say it's a total failure and needs to stop.......now.
If drugs were legal these numbers would be very different.
Racial profiling would decrease?
Catching a cab would be easier with legalized drugs?
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Rockadelic said:
Big_Stacks said:
. It's ironic, but my mom has the habit of judging the poor for negative circumstances befalling them (bear in mind, mom and I are Black). I always have to point out how their circumstances might drive their behavior to some degrees. An even greater irony is that mom grew up poor!
P,
It seems like your Mom would know this experience a lot better than someone like you or I since she lived it. Likewise my Mom who grew up in the hills of N.C. and didn't have a pair of shoes until she was 5 feels the same way. She always told me opportunity is abundant but ambition and motivation is not. While I understand and agree with the basic premise you presented above I have to admit there is at least a modicum of truth in the words of our Mom that can't be discounted.
Rich
Hey Rich,
I'll never absolve people of personal responsibility (Big William didn't raise me that way), but it's hard to exercise it well in the absence of essential resources (e.g., quality education, responsible parenting, etc.). A cursory reading of "Savage Inequalities" by Jonathan Kozol speaks to the apartheid nature of the U.S. public school system, which by its nature, perpetuates racial-ethnic inequality. Furthermore, we live in a society that reinforces Black boys and men more for a great jumpshot, good rap lyrics, or a high-earning crack business than academic achievement. Sadly, these guys are provided very few options beyond the ones mentioned (at least tangible ones, anyway), and the latter is pretty much undermined by the undereducation that occurs in poorly-funded urban schools where Blacks are more likely to attend. I came up in Montgomery County, Maryland schools in the 1970s, some of the best in the nation. I just can't pat myself on the back too hard considering the great resources I had at my disposal, both at home and at school. I wish such resources were more evenly distributed in our nation, as we would see far less disorder and inequality than we witness.
So forgive me for not "admitting" that I believe the "War on Drugs" in our country is primarily a black one. The white dude who has been in prison in Texas since the 70's for smuggling pot has been harmed just as much as the black dude in Baltimore arrested with a vial of crack. If you feel the need to point out that MORE black men/families have been harmed, great, as long as we can agree to fix the damn problem.
This is something I truly believe can be fixed and I hope it happens in my lifetime. But it's going to take everyone realizing that it DOES hit their homes and families to get it done. And based on population alone that has to include ALL people.
This is just one drop in the bucket towards correcting the race relations in our country, but it's the only one I can think of that can be addressed quickly and has a good chance of actually accomplishing something.
I agree with all of this, as I think you know from prior discussions.
I doubt very much that big changes will be made in national drug policies apart from those dealing with pot, at least in the near future. If they are or they aren't, we're still left with an overall system that has embedded racial disparity and accepts it.
There was something posted above about black defendants missing hearings, etc. at a higher rate than whites. I don't doubt that this happens, but it's hard not to think that it's also understandable. Why exactly would black people have anywhere near the same faith in the courts that white people do? They'd have to be crazy to ignore the historical record that shows they don't get even treatment. They don't, and that's a fact, and it's a fact regardless of whether drugs are an element of the offense.
. It's ironic, but my mom has the habit of judging the poor for negative circumstances befalling them (bear in mind, mom and I are Black). I always have to point out how their circumstances might drive their behavior to some degrees. An even greater irony is that mom grew up poor!
P,
It seems like your Mom would know this experience a lot better than someone like you or I since she lived it. Likewise my Mom who grew up in the hills of N.C. and didn't have a pair of shoes until she was 5 feels the same way. She always told me opportunity is abundant but ambition and motivation is not. While I understand and agree with the basic premise you presented above I have to admit there is at least a modicum of truth in the words of our Mom that can't be discounted.
Rich
Hey Rich,
I'll never absolve people of personal responsibility (Big William didn't raise me that way), but it's hard to exercise it well in the absence of essential resources (e.g., quality education, responsible parenting, etc.). A cursory reading of "Savage Inequalities" by Jonathan Kozol speaks to the apartheid nature of the U.S. public school system, which by its nature, perpetuates racial-ethnic inequality. Furthermore, we live in a society that reinforces Black boys and men more for a great jumpshot, good rap lyrics, or a high-earning crack business than academic achievement. Sadly, these guys are provided very few options beyond the ones mentioned (at least tangible ones, anyway), and the latter is pretty much undermined by the undereducation that occurs in poorly-funded urban schools where Blacks are more likely to attend. I came up in Montgomery County, Maryland schools in the 1970s, some of the best in the nation. I just can't pat myself on the back too hard considering the great resources I had at my disposal, both at home and at school. I wish such resources were more evenly distributed in our nation, as we would see far less disorder and inequality than we witness.
Peace,
Patrick
Patrick,
No argument here.....like I stated above I agree with the basic premise of inequality you presented....and those who overcome those odds, like our Mom's did, should be proud and maybe a little more understanding. As we discussed in the past, the "responsible parenting" may be the most important of the numerous obstacles. Not incarcerating fathers for drug offenses is a step in the right direction towards this parenting dilemma. Eliminating drug dealers will end the drug dealer as a role model issue. And if we could spend the money we waste fighting the illegal drug trade, trying said drug cases in court and housing drug offenders in prisons it could go a long way towards improving the level of public education and creating jobs for those who would otherwise be caught in the current cycle of fail. I'm not naive enough to not recognize that legalizing drugs will create a new/different set of problems that will likely affect the same demographic, but I see it as the lesser of two evils with the bigger upside being on the decriminalization side of the equation. I could be wrong, and would love to hear other suggestions for a solution, but I know what we're doing now on that front isn't working. I'd rather be optimistic than cynical.
Batmon.....I doubt drug legalization will help you get a cab or stop scurred old ladies from crossing the street, but in the scheme of things those should be a little lower on the list of problems that need to be addressed.
Comments
According to the Drug Policy Alliance 38% of drug arrests in the U.S. are of black people....
If we're going to stop this illegal drug insanity we should stop it for the other 62% as well.
P,
It seems like your Mom would know this experience a lot better than someone like you or I since she lived it. Likewise my Mom who grew up in the hills of N.C. and didn't have a pair of shoes until she was 5 feels the same way. She always told me opportunity is abundant but ambition and motivation is not. While I understand and agree with the basic premise you presented above I have to admit there is at least a modicum of truth in the words of our Mom that can't be discounted.
Rich
shocking.
word.
Apparently only those who used them.
Aw, come on, you're dodging the question.
Studies show that there's very little difference in drug usage between blacks and whites in the US. But there's an enormous difference in arrest and incarcerations related to drugs that just can't be dismissed.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/law/police/tulia/
Aw, come on, you're dodging the question./
We go down this path that leads to nowhere every few months.
What exactly is this question I'm dodging?
The "war on drugs" is devasating to the black community....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devastating to low income urban areas.....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devasatating to low income rural areas....Yes
The "war on drugs" is silly and needs to end.....Yes
Do the last one and there will be no need to discuss the first three.
If only 38% of drug arrests are black, yet the prisons are bursting with black people convicted of drug crimes, that says something about the criminal justice system, doesn't it?
Sure.....59% of those convicted are black......and poor....but if we make them legal there will be no arrests and subsequently no convictions......who else in this thread has offered any type of solution whatsoever?
wonder if we'd all be investing in this if bush had gotten his wish to privatize social security?
a documentary that goes into great detail about this
american drug war: the last white hope
which you can watch for free here:
topdocumentaryfilms.com/american-drug-war/ watch it if you dare
My city, or perhaps county (forget), wanted to find out why Blacks were jailed at a disproportionate
number.
There findings were that the majority of the discrepancy came from the number of people jailed because of missed hearings and parole violations.
Blacks were more likely to skip a court date or not stay in contact with a parole officer than whites. Thus they ended up getting jailed. Keep in mind this is city (or county) court, so these tend to be minor offenses.
In an npr report they looked at the problem on a larger scale.
Compare 2 young men arrested for a drug offense.
1 is quickly bailed out by family, advised by lawyer to get a job (dad pulls strings to get one) and enter rehab, shows up for court in suit and tie.
The other does not have the means to meet bail, shows up for court in jail coveralls with public defender who advises a guilty plea.
Who is getting off, who is going to jail?
A lot has to do with socio-economic standing and the ability to make good choices.
Like Stacks was saying.
Here, Saba is plagiarizing Woody Guthrie and should be jailed for his crimes.
Ability to make a good choice is vastly improved when the options are also good.
What exactly is this question I'm dodging?
The "war on drugs" is devasating to the black community....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devastating to low income urban areas.....Yes
The "war on drugs" is devasatating to low income rural areas....Yes
The "war on drugs" is silly and needs to end.....Yes
Do the last one and there will be no need to discuss the first three.
The problem isn't just restricted to drug laws, though. The same systemic racism that leads to the disparity in drug enforcement applies to other types of law enforcement as well. All the way down to traffic tickets.
The law professor in the initial article/video specifically referenced the governments drug policies and the rights that were taken away from convicted felons as a result and that's why I focused on that issue.
The war on drugs is a joke, the privatizing of prisons is pertinent, but I see no value in debating who is hurt the MOST by these things, let's just fix them.
Is there some reason both problems can't be addressed? It's not like they're unrelated.
Interesting.
Sure.........I believe decriminalization is the solution to one problem that has only existed for 40 years......let's make that the first step and maybe some of the other issues will be easier to address..
If someone here has better ideas let's hear them.
This ^^^. The prison system as it exists, and racism are not unrelated. They are very interdependent. You can't ignore the racial issues and 'fix' the prison-industrial system.
That 'New Jim Crow' story is pretty compelling.
http://www.npr.org/series/122954677/behind-the-bail-bond-system
Addressing it by changing laws, freeing non-violent drug offenders and eliminating criminal behavior as a role model?
Or
Addressing it by studying it, writing papers about it and joining in on internet circle jerks deriding it?
How about Black and White folk looking in the mirror and admitting their hand in racism.
It starts with the people. Humans create and support these Laws and watch the Wire.... :lush:
Maybe on Gum Drop Island there is a magic mirror that people can look into and all the world's problems go away.
But reality is that most humans put themselves and theirs first and foremost.
The professor rightfully singles out the drug laws in our country as resulting in a disproportionate number of black men in prison and the many associated problems it's created. BUT....if you frame it like that, that it's effects are primarily hurting 12% of our population, that's 88% who then think "It's not my problem, it doesn't harm me or mine". This problem truly does touch everyone, some obviously more than others, but it is hurting the entire spectrum of our society in almost countless different ways.
And until you get everyone to realize this, people are not going to make the effort to change, create or support the laws that will fix it. The best motivation for people to reach out and work towards a common goal is when they feel they all have a vested interest in the outcome.
So forgive me for not "admitting" that I believe the "War on Drugs" in our country is primarily a black one. The white dude who has been in prison in Texas since the 70's for smuggling pot has been harmed just as much as the black dude in Baltimore arrested with a vial of crack. If you feel the need to point out that MORE black men/families have been harmed, great, as long as we can agree to fix the damn problem.
This is something I truly believe can be fixed and I hope it happens in my lifetime. But it's going to take everyone realizing that it DOES hit their homes and families to get it done. And based on population alone that has to include ALL people.
This is just one drop in the bucket towards correcting the race relations in our country, but it's the only one I can think of that can be addressed quickly and has a good chance of actually accomplishing something.
One step ahead is a hell of a lot better than spinning wheels or going backwards. Maybe I am naive, but I haven't seen anything but harm and misery come from this "war" that our government has chased with good money after bad and at this point I'm confident enough to say it's a total failure and needs to stop.......now.
b/w
I've never seen The Wire
Racial profiling would decrease?
Catching a cab would be easier with legalized drugs?
Hey Rich,
I'll never absolve people of personal responsibility (Big William didn't raise me that way), but it's hard to exercise it well in the absence of essential resources (e.g., quality education, responsible parenting, etc.). A cursory reading of "Savage Inequalities" by Jonathan Kozol speaks to the apartheid nature of the U.S. public school system, which by its nature, perpetuates racial-ethnic inequality. Furthermore, we live in a society that reinforces Black boys and men more for a great jumpshot, good rap lyrics, or a high-earning crack business than academic achievement. Sadly, these guys are provided very few options beyond the ones mentioned (at least tangible ones, anyway), and the latter is pretty much undermined by the undereducation that occurs in poorly-funded urban schools where Blacks are more likely to attend. I came up in Montgomery County, Maryland schools in the 1970s, some of the best in the nation. I just can't pat myself on the back too hard considering the great resources I had at my disposal, both at home and at school. I wish such resources were more evenly distributed in our nation, as we would see far less disorder and inequality than we witness.
Peace,
Patrick
I agree with all of this, as I think you know from prior discussions.
I doubt very much that big changes will be made in national drug policies apart from those dealing with pot, at least in the near future. If they are or they aren't, we're still left with an overall system that has embedded racial disparity and accepts it.
There was something posted above about black defendants missing hearings, etc. at a higher rate than whites. I don't doubt that this happens, but it's hard not to think that it's also understandable. Why exactly would black people have anywhere near the same faith in the courts that white people do? They'd have to be crazy to ignore the historical record that shows they don't get even treatment. They don't, and that's a fact, and it's a fact regardless of whether drugs are an element of the offense.
Patrick,
No argument here.....like I stated above I agree with the basic premise of inequality you presented....and those who overcome those odds, like our Mom's did, should be proud and maybe a little more understanding. As we discussed in the past, the "responsible parenting" may be the most important of the numerous obstacles. Not incarcerating fathers for drug offenses is a step in the right direction towards this parenting dilemma. Eliminating drug dealers will end the drug dealer as a role model issue. And if we could spend the money we waste fighting the illegal drug trade, trying said drug cases in court and housing drug offenders in prisons it could go a long way towards improving the level of public education and creating jobs for those who would otherwise be caught in the current cycle of fail. I'm not naive enough to not recognize that legalizing drugs will create a new/different set of problems that will likely affect the same demographic, but I see it as the lesser of two evils with the bigger upside being on the decriminalization side of the equation. I could be wrong, and would love to hear other suggestions for a solution, but I know what we're doing now on that front isn't working. I'd rather be optimistic than cynical.
Batmon.....I doubt drug legalization will help you get a cab or stop scurred old ladies from crossing the street, but in the scheme of things those should be a little lower on the list of problems that need to be addressed.
Rich