Hey fuckers, take your hate to the other thread. This is reserved for unassailably great artists. Once people begin to disagree, there goes the "unassailability."
So far, I have yet to hear anyone mount a credible attack on suggesting that the following belong in the pantheon:
James
Aretha
Stevie
Marvin
Sam
dude I was posting from a place filled with nothing but love (nohomo) -
I gather you're saying pfunk, kool & the gang and the ohio players are not in the untouchable category? think again right? You want to take it to a classic album head to head vs aretha or sam cook with any of those three? b 4 real.
Hey fuckers, take your hate to the other thread. This is reserved for unassailably great artists. Once people begin to disagree, there goes the "unassailability."
So far, I have yet to hear anyone mount a credible attack on suggesting that the following belong in the pantheon:
James
Aretha
Stevie
Marvin
Sam
I never hear anyone call Sly Stone overrated, but I suspect this may be due less to unassailability and more to his just getting overlooked. I think soul dudes pull for James and rock dudes pull for Jimi and musical dudes pull for Stevie and introspective dudes pull for Curtis, leaving Sly to slip between the cracks.
In any case, he's probably my number-two guy ever, behind the quite-assailable Prince.
Hey fuckers, take your hate to the other thread. This is reserved for unassailably great artists. Once people begin to disagree, there goes the "unassailability."
So far, I have yet to hear anyone mount a credible attack on suggesting that the following belong in the pantheon:
James
Aretha
Stevie
Marvin
Sam
dude I was posting from a place filled with nothing but love (nohomo) -
I gather you're saying pfunk, kool & the gang and the ohio players are not in the untouchable category? think again right? You want to take it to a classic album head to head vs aretha or sam cook with any of those three? b 4 real.
I never hear anyone call Sly Stone overrated, but I suspect this may be due less to unassailability and more to his just getting overlooked.
I'd be on the fence here but not because I think his talent was overstated. I think overexposure has worn down my enthusiasm for Sly in a way that doesn't exist for some of the other Untouchables. But I won't speak ill of the man.
I can't remember if someone actually claimed Mayfield was overrated in that other thread. Crazy talk, IMO.
I swore someone called Curtis overrated in the other thread, blasphemy!
And i agree about Sly, he kind of falls between the cracks, he just doesn't register on a big level to me, not sure why, he's great, but i never got into him like all the others we've mentioned.
And i for one LOVE Otis, but honestly his career was full of as many duds as it was moments of greatness (he did have a very short career, i know), too many of his songs sound the same, dude was an insane vocalist (top 5) but i don't think he deserves to be untouchable.
I get lost in my Otis Redding albums. But I can see how people would find some of his stuff tepid. Actually, I find some of his stuff teipd too, but it's all so uniquely Otis Redding that I rarely skip his songs. He's the perfect soul artist to me. (Might a PMG thing.)
I'm with Ketan on this one. Otis is one of the GOATs. So raw, so pure. I vote for untouchable status.
I seem to recall that, in Strut Days Past, the one rap group that everyone seemed to agree on was The Coup. I'm a fan, but I think they fall far short of untouchable status.
How about Dennis Brown? Yes, he put out some terds late in his career, but you won't have an artist with 50+ albums who didn't.
And i agree about Sly, he kind of falls between the cracks, he just doesn't register on a big level to me, not sure why, he's great, but i never got into him like all the others we've mentioned.
He's untouchable and, for the record, underrated to me (see below). He brought such a unique vision to soul music and broadened that vision greatly over his albums. I think a lot of people get hung up on the early sound - and that can get dated - but if you haven't tried to love Small Talk, Fresh and Riot before, do yourself a favour...!
One small example of why he's underrated (at least by today's mainstream) is that I was looking to share This is Love with someone via the intertubes the other day and could not find a single streaming version anywhere in those tubes! Not even on the Yootubes!
I think this list makes for decent bedrock, and looking at it again, it occurs to me that Stevie is alone in being 1) a serious musician in addition to the singing (please miss me with JB's organ shit, and yeah, I know that Marvin and Aretha comped on piano) and 2) at all experimental. Likewise, a lot of the proposed contenders are also 1) sangers first and foremost and 2) played it pretty straight, soncially speaking.
I'm trying not to believe that soulstrut is so so orthodox, and am wondering who might be the most bugged "untouchable." Jimi? P-Funk?
So are there Outkast haters on here? i don't see how they don't deserve untouchable status (4 classics/damn near classic in a row!). I figured they might be the one Hip Hop act who gets the pass from everyone here, who is hatting on Andre and Big Boi?
, so pure. I vote for untouchable status.
I seem to recall that, in Strut Days Past, the one rap group that everyone seemed to agree on was The Coup. I'm a fan, but I think they fall far short of untouchable status.
.
way, way short.
I can see how their ability to sort of straddle different rap genres (and do it well) made it hard for anyone to really hate on them outright.
but they have only 1 arguably 2 truly great albums and lots of inconsistent material.
If Curtis gets "Untouchable" status, I'd consider him on an "experimental" level
Really?
I guess it depends on what you mean by experimental. I don't think Curtis was avant garde but I see him as constantly pushing directions in soul music that weren't just about refinement of existing styles. But I don't think he had as broad a vision as Stevie.
btw if Curtis is on that list, you can never deny Kool & The Gang a spot.
Kool & The Gang > Curtis Mayfield
Really?? I'd take every Curtis Mayfield album pre-1980 over almost any Kool & The Gang album. (maybe the 1980s pass goes without saying as every artist on this list (James Brown, Aretha, Stevie, even Marvin Gaye) released some sub-par content in the 1980s, as did Kool & the Gang). This does not even begin to deal with the Impressions and the other Chicago soul groups Curtis produced throughout the 1960s. I admit to being biased on this topic, as I'm a Curtisologist for life, but...Kool & the Gang has nothing on Curtis Mayfield.
Curtis = untouchable. Kool & the Gang = largely one-note. A damn good note, especially in the early 70s, but still.
I don't think K&G are overrated. Don't see 'em vying for Untouchable status either though.
I was thinking about James early comment about how the list is singer-heavy and I wonder if that suggests that being an exceptional singer is easier to pull off than being an exceptional musician. The latter, in my mind, takes more risks over the course of a long career than the former. I was thinking, in particular, of Ella Fitzgerald, who hardly knocked it out the park on every album but whose voice rarely betrayed her over the bulk of her career. It's hard to say that for many of the musicians she worked with though.
One exception and a nominee for Untouchable status: Duke Ellington.
If Curtis gets "Untouchable" status, I'd consider him on an "experimental" level
Really?
I guess it depends on what you mean by experimental. I don't think Curtis was avant garde but I see him as constantly pushing directions in soul music that weren't just about refinement of existing styles. But I don't think he had as broad a vision as Stevie.
The heavy Psych element to "Check Out Your Mind" when his fans probably just wanted more sweet soul singing, Bobby Franklins Insanity, 'If Theres A Hell..." alot of his stuff went beyond sweet soul and funk, some of it was "Out There".
I don't think Prince is unassailable even if I found some of the arguments thrown around in the other thread to be ridiculous.
Unassailable = unattainable.
James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder all released some suspect, readily assailable material in the 1980s. To me, Prince is a genius, but that's an argument to be had (and apparently already had) in the other thread.
(maybe the 1980s pass goes without saying as every artist on this list (James Brown, Aretha, Stevie, even Marvin Gaye) released some sub-par content in the 1980s, as did Kool & the Gang).
This and Prince raise the question - are late-career fall-offs to be expected and don't contribute to whether someone is untouchable?
Or is the question really whether an artists prime output is untouchable?
I don't think Prince is unassailable even if I found some of the arguments thrown around in the other thread to be ridiculous.
Unassailable = unattainable.
James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder all released some suspect, readily assailable material in the 1980s. To me, Prince is a genius, but that's an argument to be had (and apparently already had) in the other thread.
There's a difference though. Some artists can absorb tons of bad material and still be considered GOAT. I don't think Prince is quite as bulletproof even if I personally think he's genius.
Comments
dude I was posting from a place filled with nothing but love (nohomo) -
I gather you're saying pfunk, kool & the gang and the ohio players are not in the untouchable category? think again right? You want to take it to a classic album head to head vs aretha or sam cook with any of those three? b 4 real.
I never hear anyone call Sly Stone overrated, but I suspect this may be due less to unassailability and more to his just getting overlooked. I think soul dudes pull for James and rock dudes pull for Jimi and musical dudes pull for Stevie and introspective dudes pull for Curtis, leaving Sly to slip between the cracks.
In any case, he's probably my number-two guy ever, behind the quite-assailable Prince.
By hate I mean all the shit-talking.
I'd be on the fence here but not because I think his talent was overstated. I think overexposure has worn down my enthusiasm for Sly in a way that doesn't exist for some of the other Untouchables. But I won't speak ill of the man.
I can't remember if someone actually claimed Mayfield was overrated in that other thread. Crazy talk, IMO.
And i agree about Sly, he kind of falls between the cracks, he just doesn't register on a big level to me, not sure why, he's great, but i never got into him like all the others we've mentioned.
I'm with Ketan on this one. Otis is one of the GOATs. So raw, so pure. I vote for untouchable status.
I seem to recall that, in Strut Days Past, the one rap group that everyone seemed to agree on was The Coup. I'm a fan, but I think they fall far short of untouchable status.
How about Dennis Brown? Yes, he put out some terds late in his career, but you won't have an artist with 50+ albums who didn't.
He's untouchable and, for the record, underrated to me (see below). He brought such a unique vision to soul music and broadened that vision greatly over his albums. I think a lot of people get hung up on the early sound - and that can get dated - but if you haven't tried to love Small Talk, Fresh and Riot before, do yourself a favour...!
One small example of why he's underrated (at least by today's mainstream) is that I was looking to share This is Love with someone via the intertubes the other day and could not find a single streaming version anywhere in those tubes! Not even on the Yootubes!
peace,xavier
I think this list makes for decent bedrock, and looking at it again, it occurs to me that Stevie is alone in being 1) a serious musician in addition to the singing (please miss me with JB's organ shit, and yeah, I know that Marvin and Aretha comped on piano) and 2) at all experimental. Likewise, a lot of the proposed contenders are also 1) sangers first and foremost and 2) played it pretty straight, soncially speaking.
I'm trying not to believe that soulstrut is so so orthodox, and am wondering who might be the most bugged "untouchable." Jimi? P-Funk?
If Curtis gets "Untouchable" status, I'd consider him on an "experimental" level though perhaps not as ambitiously so as Stevie.
And I'd second Outkast but again, I don't trust that any rap act gets a pass round these parts.
way, way short.
I can see how their ability to sort of straddle different rap genres (and do it well) made it hard for anyone to really hate on them outright.
but they have only 1 arguably 2 truly great albums and lots of inconsistent material.
EDIT: Kool & The Gang > Curtis Mayfield ??
Really?
I guess it depends on what you mean by experimental. I don't think Curtis was avant garde but I see him as constantly pushing directions in soul music that weren't just about refinement of existing styles. But I don't think he had as broad a vision as Stevie.
Really?? I'd take every Curtis Mayfield album pre-1980 over almost any Kool & The Gang album. (maybe the 1980s pass goes without saying as every artist on this list (James Brown, Aretha, Stevie, even Marvin Gaye) released some sub-par content in the 1980s, as did Kool & the Gang). This does not even begin to deal with the Impressions and the other Chicago soul groups Curtis produced throughout the 1960s. I admit to being biased on this topic, as I'm a Curtisologist for life, but...Kool & the Gang has nothing on Curtis Mayfield.
Curtis = untouchable. Kool & the Gang = largely one-note. A damn good note, especially in the early 70s, but still.
JROOTS.
I was thinking about James early comment about how the list is singer-heavy and I wonder if that suggests that being an exceptional singer is easier to pull off than being an exceptional musician. The latter, in my mind, takes more risks over the course of a long career than the former. I was thinking, in particular, of Ella Fitzgerald, who hardly knocked it out the park on every album but whose voice rarely betrayed her over the bulk of her career. It's hard to say that for many of the musicians she worked with though.
One exception and a nominee for Untouchable status: Duke Ellington.
The heavy Psych element to "Check Out Your Mind" when his fans probably just wanted more sweet soul singing, Bobby Franklins Insanity, 'If Theres A Hell..." alot of his stuff went beyond sweet soul and funk, some of it was "Out There".
Unassailable = unattainable.
James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder all released some suspect, readily assailable material in the 1980s. To me, Prince is a genius, but that's an argument to be had (and apparently already had) in the other thread.
This and Prince raise the question - are late-career fall-offs to be expected and don't contribute to whether someone is untouchable?
Or is the question really whether an artists prime output is untouchable?
There's a difference though. Some artists can absorb tons of bad material and still be considered GOAT. I don't think Prince is quite as bulletproof even if I personally think he's genius.
Haven't read the other read lately, but I agree with you. I'd say that early-to-mid period Prince is untouchable.