Couldn't be bothered to read past the first page of the article. Seemed pretty much in line with what I'd expect from a New York Times article on Drake.
The Times has featured excellent rap criticism/reporting in the past--certainly far superior to anything that runs in the explicitly hip-hop oriented print world.
I'll take your word for it (and feel free to recommend some interesting reads from there). I check the Times front (web)page daily, but really just the top half and editorials.
1. Caramanica is the worst fanboy scribe in the business. In this case, he's just doing what the assignment called for...but certainly no more. At that point during the late-90's when emerging hip-hop journalists stopped being creatively iconoclast-oriented in favor of merely cosigning anything that helped them write in bigger and bigger venues...that's where the suck really took hold and this dude has been the worst culprit by far.
Yo - we both have conflict o' interests in discussing Jon here so I'll leave the first part of your comments aside. I would say that your "death of iconoclast-oriented rap journalism" is late by at least half a decade. The change in the late '90s wasn't that people became more cosign-friendly (this had almost always been the case at all the major rap mags), it was that the publications themselves upgraded in stature, circulation and self-importance.
That's exactly right--in the early days of rap publishing, there was virtually nobody in the game with an understanding of the basic tenets of criticism/journalism; it just became more embarrassing later on when circulation/exposure increased.
Early Source = some cool pics, but text was garbage.
There actually was no golden age of rap journalism.
Ego Trip and a few years' worth of XXL, when it was dominated by that crew, are pretty much all I can ride for.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
mannybolone said:
HarveyCanal said:
1. Caramanica is the worst fanboy scribe in the business. In this case, he's just doing what the assignment called for...but certainly no more. At that point during the late-90's when emerging hip-hop journalists stopped being creatively iconoclast-oriented in favor of merely cosigning anything that helped them write in bigger and bigger venues...that's where the suck really took hold and this dude has been the worst culprit by far.
Yo - we both have conflict o' interests in discussing Jon here so I'll leave the first part of your comments aside. I would say that your "death of iconoclast-oriented rap journalism" is late by at least half a decade. The change in the late '90s wasn't that people became more cosign-friendly (this had almost always been the case at all the major rap mags), it was that the publications themselves upgraded in stature, circulation and self-importance.
The Rap Pages, Rap Sheet, Ego Trip days were great for rap journalism...that was into the mid-90's. Then a bunch of those folks moved up to bigger positions at bigger mags and stayed falling flat from then on.
Rather than doing the work of a Murder Dog or Ozone in discovering new stories, too many of the big names were merely waiting for news to fall in their laps by way of Billboard or MTV confirmations only. That's neither where the stories are at when it comes to hip-hop nor what most of us really into it care to hear about.
That's why we now have a Drake being pushed as the next coming. He represents being more interested in TMZ issues, just like the press is, than music or hip-hop itself. Used to be about a people coming up and now it's all about crybaby individuals lamenting over whether they should drive their Rolls Royce or Bentley to the liquor store.
1. Caramanica is the worst fanboy scribe in the business. In this case, he's just doing what the assignment called for...but certainly no more. At that point during the late-90's when emerging hip-hop journalists stopped being creatively iconoclast-oriented in favor of merely cosigning anything that helped them write in bigger and bigger venues...that's where the suck really took hold and this dude has been the worst culprit by far.
Yo - we both have conflict o' interests in discussing Jon here so I'll leave the first part of your comments aside. I would say that your "death of iconoclast-oriented rap journalism" is late by at least half a decade. The change in the late '90s wasn't that people became more cosign-friendly (this had almost always been the case at all the major rap mags), it was that the publications themselves upgraded in stature, circulation and self-importance.
That's exactly right--in the early days of rap publishing, there was virtually nobody in the game with an understanding of the basic tenets of criticism/journalism; it just became more embarrassing later on when circulation/exposure increased.
Early Source = some cool pics, but text was garbage.
There actually was no golden age of rap journalism.
Ego Trip and a few years' worth of XXL, when it was dominated by that crew, are pretty much all I can ride for.
I would add in there the first two waves of rap critics writing for the Village Voice plus a couple years at Rap Pages when pre-ego trip dudes were helping run it (Gabe and Sacha in particular).
too many of the big names were merely waiting for news to fall in their laps by way of Billboard or MTV confirmations only.
Again, I just think this is rather revisionist. Excepting the more regional mags like Murder Dog or 4080, the big national rags were always beholden - to some degree or another - by record labels for advertising and that constrained editorial freedom and directions (at least when Benzino wasn't involved).
I also think you have it backwards - no one's waiting for Billboard or MTV's cosignage. Those outlets followed the money back to hip-hop and began to alter their coverage in order to capitalize.
1. Caramanica is the worst fanboy scribe in the business. In this case, he's just doing what the assignment called for...but certainly no more. At that point during the late-90's when emerging hip-hop journalists stopped being creatively iconoclast-oriented in favor of merely cosigning anything that helped them write in bigger and bigger venues...that's where the suck really took hold and this dude has been the worst culprit by far.
Yo - we both have conflict o' interests in discussing Jon here so I'll leave the first part of your comments aside. I would say that your "death of iconoclast-oriented rap journalism" is late by at least half a decade. The change in the late '90s wasn't that people became more cosign-friendly (this had almost always been the case at all the major rap mags), it was that the publications themselves upgraded in stature, circulation and self-importance.
That's exactly right--in the early days of rap publishing, there was virtually nobody in the game with an understanding of the basic tenets of criticism/journalism; it just became more embarrassing later on when circulation/exposure increased.
Early Source = some cool pics, but text was garbage.
There actually was no golden age of rap journalism.
Ego Trip and a few years' worth of XXL, when it was dominated by that crew, are pretty much all I can ride for.
I would add in there the first two waves of rap critics writing for the Village Voice plus a couple years at Rap Pages when pre-ego trip dudes were helping run it (Gabe and Sacha in particular).
Agree with the Voice (although it's also been responsible for some of the most laughable bad rap writing ever), but it's outside the pantheon of rap-oriented publications.
I honestly can't remember much about the writing in Rap Pages (I do, however, recall that they cashed my check, without ever sending me an issue). Great covers, though.
There are--as Shied pointed out--other publications like Murder Dog that have done a service to their readers in reaching outside of major label press packages to cover lesser-known and regional artists, but the writing in those mags has generally been even worse.
Don't you really mean Weezy? He played a greater direct hand, no?
the blind leading the blind...guys like drake and weezy are bringing the collective standards down even further...being a saviour of hip hop is irrelevant. the problem is that these dudes are being elevated when they clearly don;t deserve to be. life isn;t fair, what a revelation.
If i were an artist at this point in the game i'd avoid at all cost being propped up as the savior for a bullshit fickle ADD industry.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
mannybolone said:
Can I ask a serious question:
Why do any of us really care who anyone is anointing as a hip hop savior?
That seems so early 2000s.
Drake may be undeserving but...so what? How does this herald any worse doom that hip-hop hasn't already suffered via the last 10 years?
Hip-hop is just fine. There is great rap music of all kinds to be found all over the place. It's the music industry that collapsed, which couldn't be helped by hip-hop itself as the fall was actually format related. But hitting closer to home, it has been the media's coverage of hip-hop that has made it out to be in such a sorry state. Concentrating on bullshit and ignoring the real deal seems to be the policy nowadays and sadly in too many cases, the public follows suit.
Why do any of us really care who anyone is anointing as a hip hop savior?
That seems so early 2000s.
Drake may be undeserving but...so what? How does this herald any worse doom that hip-hop hasn't already suffered via the last 10 years?
this misses the point - as someone said upthread, his popularity is very real. He is by almost any measure, enormously successful. The one remaining measure is album sales, and while I hope that the record will flop I wouldn't bet money on it. For what it's worth, this seems to be the least important metric of the music industry these days anyway.
What anointing him the savior of anything does is legitimize him. Given the quality of people around him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and nobody seems willing to point out the utter hypocrisy inherent in his shtick.
did anyone here at any time ever ride for this dudes music?
Yes--there was a small but vocal group that was riding hard. Of those, only Drewn now has sufficient character to admit it, though.
Who was all riding?? Granted, I don't have the greatest memory but I can only remember Drewn leaning favorably towards the guy.
Little dudes who I can't tell apart. And hemol. I certainly can't be bothered to search, although I do recall a particularly pause-worthy exclamation that "he sounds so comfortable on the mic." This was definitely the first place I encountered any sort of enthusiasm for Drake or saw any indication that he had more of a following than all the other anonymous hacks that nahright takes payola to promote.
I think maybe you're sippin' the juice a little by wanting us to ride hard for Drake so that you can clown away.
faux_rillz is infallible. In the future, get it straight.
Caramanica is usually way better than this. My view is that Drake is the kind of rapper that broadsheet music critics need/want to be important, so consequently, that's how he's being set up.
As for that MIA article, didn't the NYT show their asses and end up having to withdraw a lot of it, including some of the more contentious allegations/observations?
I am aware of two issues/corrections, neither of which really impacts the main thrust of the article:
There was a block quote, and the Times ran a correction in which Hirschberg admitted to reversing its two halves. She didn't backtrack on her claim that MIA actually said all of those things.
MIA poasted audio suggesting that Hirschberg had, in fact, been responsible for the selection of the controversial truffle-oil fries.
Ah, OK. To be honest, I thought the whole thing generated more of a furore than it warranted.
I agree--the facts that she is a talentless hack and a self-important, yet generally uninformed, fraud were not exactly revelations. Nice to see them more widely disseminated though.
I thought the "furor" over the article was funny (MIA actually tweeted Hirschberg's phone number on some "call her up and tell her you hate her for being mean to little ol' me!" steez...so weak), mostly because, yeah, it wasn't saying anything that hadn't been obvious pretty much from the get-go. It just wasn't supposed to be, you know, said out loud.
Also:
If Murder Dog had writing quality to match its enthusiasm, it'd be an amazing magazine.
If Murder Dog had writing quality to match its enthusiasm, it'd be an amazing magazine.
I'm inclined to agree here except to say that its enthusiasm is part of what limits its writing quality. It's hard to consistently write with a critical voice AND cheerlead simultaneously.
Why do any of us really care who anyone is anointing as a hip hop savior?
That seems so early 2000s.
Drake may be undeserving but...so what? How does this herald any worse doom that hip-hop hasn't already suffered via the last 10 years?
this misses the point - as someone said upthread, his popularity is very real. He is by almost any measure, enormously successful. The one remaining measure is album sales, and while I hope that the record will flop I wouldn't bet money on it. For what it's worth, this seems to be the least important metric of the music industry these days anyway.
What anointing him the savior of anything does is legitimize him. Given the quality of people around him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and nobody seems willing to point out the utter hypocrisy inherent in his shtick.
Fair enough.
I just think we've been through this same variety of argument since, well, the birth of hip-hop. Drake practically just plays a role in that never-ending recycling of "undeserving popular rapper". It's almost mechanical.
If Murder Dog had writing quality to match its enthusiasm, it'd be an amazing magazine.
I'm inclined to agree here except to say that its enthusiasm is part of what limits its writing quality. It's hard to consistently write with a critical voice AND cheerlead simultaneously.
Why do any of us really care who anyone is anointing as a hip hop savior?
That seems so early 2000s.
Drake may be undeserving but...so what? How does this herald any worse doom that hip-hop hasn't already suffered via the last 10 years?
this misses the point - as someone said upthread, his popularity is very real. He is by almost any measure, enormously successful. The one remaining measure is album sales, and while I hope that the record will flop I wouldn't bet money on it. For what it's worth, this seems to be the least important metric of the music industry these days anyway.
What anointing him the savior of anything does is legitimize him. Given the quality of people around him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and nobody seems willing to point out the utter hypocrisy inherent in his shtick.
Fair enough.
I just think we've been through this same variety of argument since, well, the birth of hip-hop. Drake practically just plays a role in that never-ending recycling of "undeserving popular rapper". It's almost mechanical.
There has never before been a rapper who makes such bad music who has achieved the same degree of influence/importance within hip-hop. Ever.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
mannybolone said:
DJ_Enki said:
If Murder Dog had writing quality to match its enthusiasm, it'd be an amazing magazine.
I'm inclined to agree here except to say that its enthusiasm is part of what limits its writing quality. It's hard to consistently write with a critical voice AND cheerlead simultaneously.
Never understood the negative connotations put forth by the word "cheerlead" in this case...as otherwise I don't understand why else someone would ever want to write about music. Plus the criticalness in such a case comes into play from listening to 30 other groups and not wanting to write anything favorable about them at all and then happening upon that one group that you think deserves all the praise it can get.
Comments
I'll take your word for it (and feel free to recommend some interesting reads from there). I check the Times front (web)page daily, but really just the top half and editorials.
That's exactly right--in the early days of rap publishing, there was virtually nobody in the game with an understanding of the basic tenets of criticism/journalism; it just became more embarrassing later on when circulation/exposure increased.
Early Source = some cool pics, but text was garbage.
There actually was no golden age of rap journalism.
Ego Trip and a few years' worth of XXL, when it was dominated by that crew, are pretty much all I can ride for.
The Rap Pages, Rap Sheet, Ego Trip days were great for rap journalism...that was into the mid-90's. Then a bunch of those folks moved up to bigger positions at bigger mags and stayed falling flat from then on.
Rather than doing the work of a Murder Dog or Ozone in discovering new stories, too many of the big names were merely waiting for news to fall in their laps by way of Billboard or MTV confirmations only. That's neither where the stories are at when it comes to hip-hop nor what most of us really into it care to hear about.
That's why we now have a Drake being pushed as the next coming. He represents being more interested in TMZ issues, just like the press is, than music or hip-hop itself. Used to be about a people coming up and now it's all about crybaby individuals lamenting over whether they should drive their Rolls Royce or Bentley to the liquor store.
Heart Of A Milkdud-related.
I have for that Online far too gone package.
But I still stick to judging dude as a Post-Hip Hop artist vs some real shit.
For the dudes who hatt him, blame yourselves for dick riding/proppin up Kanye which allowed Drake steez to come through.
Im not lookin for this album.
I mentioned Murder Dog and I was published by 4080...so no, no blockages here in this heart.
I would add in there the first two waves of rap critics writing for the Village Voice plus a couple years at Rap Pages when pre-ego trip dudes were helping run it (Gabe and Sacha in particular).
I wasn't talking to you, dude.
Agree with the Voice (although it's also been responsible for some of the most laughable bad rap writing ever), but it's outside the pantheon of rap-oriented publications.
I honestly can't remember much about the writing in Rap Pages (I do, however, recall that they cashed my check, without ever sending me an issue). Great covers, though.
There are--as Shied pointed out--other publications like Murder Dog that have done a service to their readers in reaching outside of major label press packages to cover lesser-known and regional artists, but the writing in those mags has generally been even worse.
Don't you really mean Weezy? He played a greater direct hand, no?
Why do any of us really care who anyone is anointing as a hip hop savior?
That seems so early 2000s.
Drake may be undeserving but...so what? How does this herald any worse doom that hip-hop hasn't already suffered via the last 10 years?
the blind leading the blind...guys like drake and weezy are bringing the collective standards down even further...being a saviour of hip hop is irrelevant. the problem is that these dudes are being elevated when they clearly don;t deserve to be. life isn;t fair, what a revelation.
Hip-hop is just fine. There is great rap music of all kinds to be found all over the place. It's the music industry that collapsed, which couldn't be helped by hip-hop itself as the fall was actually format related. But hitting closer to home, it has been the media's coverage of hip-hop that has made it out to be in such a sorry state. Concentrating on bullshit and ignoring the real deal seems to be the policy nowadays and sadly in too many cases, the public follows suit.
this misses the point - as someone said upthread, his popularity is very real. He is by almost any measure, enormously successful. The one remaining measure is album sales, and while I hope that the record will flop I wouldn't bet money on it. For what it's worth, this seems to be the least important metric of the music industry these days anyway.
What anointing him the savior of anything does is legitimize him. Given the quality of people around him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and nobody seems willing to point out the utter hypocrisy inherent in his shtick.
Who was all riding?? Granted, I don't have the greatest memory but I can only remember Drewn leaning favorably towards the guy.
I think maybe you're sippin' the juice a little by wanting us to ride hard for Drake so that you can clown away.
Little dudes who I can't tell apart. And hemol. I certainly can't be bothered to search, although I do recall a particularly pause-worthy exclamation that "he sounds so comfortable on the mic." This was definitely the first place I encountered any sort of enthusiasm for Drake or saw any indication that he had more of a following than all the other anonymous hacks that nahright takes payola to promote.
faux_rillz is infallible. In the future, get it straight.
I thought the "furor" over the article was funny (MIA actually tweeted Hirschberg's phone number on some "call her up and tell her you hate her for being mean to little ol' me!" steez...so weak), mostly because, yeah, it wasn't saying anything that hadn't been obvious pretty much from the get-go. It just wasn't supposed to be, you know, said out loud.
Also:
If Murder Dog had writing quality to match its enthusiasm, it'd be an amazing magazine.
Fair enough.
I just think we've been through this same variety of argument since, well, the birth of hip-hop. Drake practically just plays a role in that never-ending recycling of "undeserving popular rapper". It's almost mechanical.
perhaps, but isn;t it important to speak out sometimes and say "the king wears no clothes" and his courtiers are full of shit?
There has never before been a rapper who makes such bad music who has achieved the same degree of influence/importance within hip-hop. Ever.
no doubt
Never understood the negative connotations put forth by the word "cheerlead" in this case...as otherwise I don't understand why else someone would ever want to write about music. Plus the criticalness in such a case comes into play from listening to 30 other groups and not wanting to write anything favorable about them at all and then happening upon that one group that you think deserves all the praise it can get.