you could hear 78 collectors saying the same stuff about post-war music or whatever. what music "feed(s) your soul" is entirely subjective. lots of people thought rock music was too crass when it hit the mainstream. same for rap. and on and on.
jonny's on point.
I read an interview with Robert Crumb where he said that 60s rock is unlistenable because it's overproduced. To each his own.
A lot of modern club music bore me to tears, and then I hear someone like Joker, who makes great music basically out of the same components.
That said, a lot of people (now and then) are just plain scared to do something different. Or they try it and it doesn't work. Whatever.
I think one point above needs to be echoed - I think one can absolutely make the argument that conventional, commercial radio is far more homogenous now than it has been in the past and that is DIRECTLY a consequence of corporate consolidation but to me, has very little to do with the technological means of production.
How many live bands BITD copped their styles from one another? Shit man, how many wanna-be James Brown bands were out there in the '60s and '70s, cutting the 7"s that we now covet? Can someone honestly say a lot of the music then didn't sound "the same", especially to casual listeners? Look at the f*cking backlash against disco with kneejerks complaining about how it all sounded the same. No one I know who really appreciates disco thinks that at all but they also know that disco music > The Saturday Night Live soundtrack and all of its biters.
To me, what's interesting, is that Kon sees the kind of technological means of production that's out there and assumes it's homogenizing music. I'm more inclined to see those tools as creating an infinitely more vast diversity of sounds. Empirically however, I don't think the data exists to really be able to say which of us is definitively right but to me, the fact that I feel like EVERY generation has this debate suggests to me that we're simply reiterating the same argument, just for a different era, but nothing has actually changed that much on the ground.
im not against the advent of technology allowing people to become better or worse producers. if you really are talented youll be that much better. adapt or get left behind. i stand by that. while ser.ato wont create and play mixes for me or you "producers" can press audition presets and thats the hit record. thats just not the same as wanting to actually play an instrument and sound like james brown.
im just asking people who dismiss the debate of music sounding the same today, and saying thats always been said...to take a look at what was on the charts yesterday vs. today....and peep production values and how i see it being drastically different. its not about casey kasem... its about where we are as a society and what resonates. the 70s was singer songwriter, 80s coked out, 90s who knows, 2k.... anything goes.
thing was then, a song like stevie's do i do, or ewf september or lets groove or dazz band let it whip, was just a popular as a madonna, evelyn champagne king, def leppard, a david bowie, a chic, or an ac-dc, all of which sound VERY different within their own genres and they were just as popular as an r kelly record or a "kids" record is today, except the content had a bit more depth then bottles, threesomes and jewels.
when i turn on the radio in the whip, i cant tell the difference. straight up. i dont know which southern drawl rapper is who, and certainly cant tell from the beats...they all do sound the same. if you can tell, your good.
todays stevie wonder is a tpain... grammy winning, hit making machine.
Kon: but you echo my point - if you turn on the radio or look at sales charts, yeah, everything has gotten more homogenized but as I was arguing, that has far more to do with how music is funneled through an increasingly more narrow set of corporate channels. The 1970s didn't have our current day equivalents of Clear Channel or Universal Music Group.
Moreover, why do we think the '70s were this golden era of the singer-songwriter? Is that "real" or simply the perception based on what has been valued from that era in hindsight vis a vis: the media, reissue labels/projects, "oldies" radio, etc.? But one could easily take a different tact and suggest the '70s were just one long bad loop of disco tunes (and certainly, this HAS been said).
I'm not saying that times don't change - of course they do - and sure, production styles have changed with them but I just don't think it's easy to claim how music has changed in a *quantifiable* way given that the entire music industry has transformed, not just the way we make music. Therefore, if Big Chan thinks rap music all sounds the same (but he didn't think this 15 years ago), I'd question: well, how are you listening to rap today? How is that different from 15 years ago? And besides the music-makers themselves, who else has played a role in shaping how you're able to hear music?
Moreover, JP raised a really good point earlier - if we're talking CLUB music, then that, almost by definition, is going to be real "flavor of the month" and I don't think that's radically changed over the last 40 years. Dance music is almost always going to be somewhat derivative of what's the "in" trend of the moment since that's what people like to dance to.
to quote myself when i turn on the radio in the whip, i cant tell the difference. straight up. i dont know which southern drawl rapper is who, and certainly cant tell from the beats...they all do sound the same. if you can tell, your good.
take the philly sound. yall mean to tell me all of the groups produced under this umbrella had the same exact vocal stylings, name, and image and all sounded alike to the point that you couldnt tell the difference ?
oliver, that is a problem...probably thebiggest..it surely is a corporate issue. agreed. its a combo.
however, biting a synth line is one thing...but to have almost every song mimic the last one is another...and the imagery. sugar sweet vocal stylings in the vein of beyonce, or rihanna, or pink or lady gaga.
usher> chris brown etc. why dont any of todays POPULAR male artists sound like a teddy p or a luther or a d train ? these new artists are out there...they just arent being tapped or promoted...but once one of em gets in, then it will be the same as what im saying.
theres no more grit...everything is sweet, processed and so much alike. since when in music did everybody have "young" in their name ?
i dont see how yall cant see this.
given the fact that media is owned by about 2 corps. it is just because these are the popular sounds/images presented to the masses, unlike before it wasnt operated the same way....so more diversity was there ?
as far as dance music not changing much in the past 40 years. i disagree. nothing sounded like house when it 1st came on the scene, except the 4 on the floor beat. there was no rules. song structure was thrown out the window. no traditional bridge. house took the best parts of disco and ran with it. just as rap music took the best of any genre of music... sucker mcs has no bassline or hook.
i dont know the answer.... and now im rambling more then ever.
i guess i will just have to deal with the fact that like chan, i am wrong. nothing sounds the same more today than before. its always been exactly like this. the radio has never sounded so diverse.
thats just not the same as wanting to actually play an instrument and sound like James Brown.
I thought Two Turnables killed that "Playin An Instrument" arguement.
apples and oranges
the comparison wasnt 2 turntables... it was technology/ preset audition settings on a mass produced keyboard/program hit one button and theres the beat for your grammy winning hit, vs groups having to learn how to play instruments to sound like james brown.
while the turntable is an instrument... can you play chords on it ? practice all you want and someday you can scratch like q bert.
while we moan about music changing, while we all listen to music from way back that has stood the test of time.... how much of todays music will actually stand up to that same test ?
I don't understand how people can not enjoy Dallas club bangers, that shit is dope! That whole DSR/TBGs derived style of rapping with the loud ass vocals/yelling is so dope.
I enjoy chants and "hey"s repeated through out an entire song, it instantly makes me want to listen to a song
Kon, I think current music does to an extent sound the same. I haven't argued that point.
I do think a lot of TSOP records sound the same.
There is an entire industry of Nigerian records basically copying the sound of Solar records and the like. Down to the melodies, dress styles, and so on. Some of these records are now highly sought after and you cannot tell me that they're any better than a record that might be found in a $1 bin stateside.
Carbon copies have always existed in music. Whether it's moreso now than before? Well... technology allows that. And the consolidation of record labels pushes it.
But as for you not being able to tell the rappers apart and the beats apart... you don't follow that scene. I think anyone moderately familiar with it can. That's not some skill - it's just knowing shit about a particular genre of music. People tell me that same thing all the time... about old music. "I can't tell this from the other funk 45/boogie 12"/psych rock album/etc"
why dont any of todays POPULAR male artists sound like a teddy p or a luther or a d train ? these new artists are out there...they just arent being tapped or promoted...but once one of em gets in, then it will be the same as what im saying.
theres no more grit...everything is sweet, processed and so much alike. since when in music did everybody have "young" in their name ?
i dont see how yall cant see this.
Tell em why you mad Kon!!!!! Jyeah. I could not agree more. Almost all of the popular male artists these days are little dudes with high pitched whiny voices. None of these guys are very masculine or have any bass in their voice. Are women attracted to these metro sexual falsetto type dudes? Jaheim is the only fairly recent exception I can think of. I know this joint came out a while back, but this was SO DOPE when it dropped....
Almost all of the popular male artists these days are little dudes with high pitched whiny voices. None of these guys are very masculine or have any bass in their voice. Are women attracted to these metro sexual falsetto type dudes?
It took me all of 4 seconds to come up with SMOKEY ROBINSON as an example of a classic artist without a "masculine" voice. Barry White wasn't the only dude with hits back in the day.
Almost all of the popular male artists these days are little dudes with high pitched whiny voices. None of these guys are very masculine or have any bass in their voice. Are women attracted to these metro sexual falsetto type dudes?
It took me all of 4 seconds to come up with SMOKEY ROBINSON as an example of a classic artist without a "masculine" voice. Barry White wasn't the only dude with hits back in the day.
Almost all of the popular male artists these days are little dudes with high pitched whiny voices. None of these guys are very masculine or have any bass in their voice. Are women attracted to these metro sexual falsetto type dudes?
It took me all of 4 seconds to come up with SMOKEY ROBINSON as an example of a classic artist without a "masculine" voice. Barry White wasn't the only dude with hits back in the day.
Hi Ross!
I'm talkin' bout current male singers hommie.
current high voiced relevant male vocalists? try Maxwell or Saadiq.
Comments
Ha! I honestly didn't sit through all of those mayne. This is Soulstrut - we judge before we listen.
I read an interview with Robert Crumb where he said that 60s rock is unlistenable because it's overproduced. To each his own.
A lot of modern club music bore me to tears, and then I hear someone like Joker, who makes great music basically out of the same components.
That said, a lot of people (now and then) are just plain scared to do something different. Or they try it and it doesn't work. Whatever.
Look at me, I'm rambling again...
^^^^^^^^^^^Leaves his "barn door" open
I guess it will appeal to the kids with akon and money in Lionel's pocket.
How many live bands BITD copped their styles from one another? Shit man, how many wanna-be James Brown bands were out there in the '60s and '70s, cutting the 7"s that we now covet? Can someone honestly say a lot of the music then didn't sound "the same", especially to casual listeners? Look at the f*cking backlash against disco with kneejerks complaining about how it all sounded the same. No one I know who really appreciates disco thinks that at all but they also know that disco music > The Saturday Night Live soundtrack and all of its biters.
To me, what's interesting, is that Kon sees the kind of technological means of production that's out there and assumes it's homogenizing music. I'm more inclined to see those tools as creating an infinitely more vast diversity of sounds. Empirically however, I don't think the data exists to really be able to say which of us is definitively right but to me, the fact that I feel like EVERY generation has this debate suggests to me that we're simply reiterating the same argument, just for a different era, but nothing has actually changed that much on the ground.
LOL! I really doubt Lionel needs any more money. The publishing checks that guy gets must be HUGE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
adapt or get left behind. i stand by that. while ser.ato wont create and play mixes for me or you "producers" can press audition presets and thats the hit record. thats just not the same as wanting to actually play an instrument and sound like james brown.
im just asking people who dismiss the debate of music sounding the same today, and saying thats always been said...to take a look at what was on the charts yesterday vs. today....and peep production values and how i see it being drastically different. its not about casey kasem... its about where we are as a society and what resonates. the 70s was singer songwriter, 80s coked out, 90s who knows, 2k.... anything goes.
thing was then, a song like stevie's do i do, or ewf september or lets groove or dazz band let it whip, was just a popular as a madonna, evelyn champagne king, def leppard, a david bowie, a chic, or an ac-dc, all of which sound VERY different within their own genres and they were just as popular as an r kelly record or a "kids" record is today, except the content had a bit more depth then bottles, threesomes and jewels.
when i turn on the radio in the whip, i cant tell the difference. straight up.
i dont know which southern drawl rapper is who, and certainly cant tell from the beats...they all do sound the same. if you can tell, your good.
todays stevie wonder is a tpain... grammy winning, hit making machine.
which one of these kids is doing his own thing.
Moreover, why do we think the '70s were this golden era of the singer-songwriter? Is that "real" or simply the perception based on what has been valued from that era in hindsight vis a vis: the media, reissue labels/projects, "oldies" radio, etc.? But one could easily take a different tact and suggest the '70s were just one long bad loop of disco tunes (and certainly, this HAS been said).
I'm not saying that times don't change - of course they do - and sure, production styles have changed with them but I just don't think it's easy to claim how music has changed in a *quantifiable* way given that the entire music industry has transformed, not just the way we make music. Therefore, if Big Chan thinks rap music all sounds the same (but he didn't think this 15 years ago), I'd question: well, how are you listening to rap today? How is that different from 15 years ago? And besides the music-makers themselves, who else has played a role in shaping how you're able to hear music?
Moreover, JP raised a really good point earlier - if we're talking CLUB music, then that, almost by definition, is going to be real "flavor of the month" and I don't think that's radically changed over the last 40 years. Dance music is almost always going to be somewhat derivative of what's the "in" trend of the moment since that's what people like to dance to.
I thought Two Turnables killed that "Playin An Instrument" arguement.
Or the sampler for that matter.
THINGS GO IN CYCLES.
Shit is tired
when i turn on the radio in the whip, i cant tell the difference. straight up.
i dont know which southern drawl rapper is who, and certainly cant tell from the beats...they all do sound the same. if you can tell, your good.
take the philly sound. yall mean to tell me all of the groups produced under this umbrella had the same exact vocal stylings, name, and image
and all sounded alike to the point that you couldnt tell the difference ?
oliver, that is a problem...probably thebiggest..it surely is a corporate issue. agreed. its a combo.
however, biting a synth line is one thing...but to have almost every song mimic the last one is another...and the imagery.
sugar sweet vocal stylings in the vein of beyonce, or rihanna, or pink or lady gaga.
usher> chris brown etc.
why dont any of todays POPULAR male artists sound like a teddy p or a luther or a d train ? these new artists are out there...they just arent being tapped or promoted...but once one of em gets in, then it will be the same as what im saying.
theres no more grit...everything is sweet, processed and so much alike.
since when in music did everybody have "young" in their name ?
i dont see how yall cant see this.
given the fact that media is owned by about 2 corps. it is just because these are the popular sounds/images presented to the masses, unlike before it wasnt operated the same way....so more diversity was there ?
as far as dance music not changing much in the past 40 years. i disagree.
nothing sounded like house when it 1st came on the scene, except the 4 on the floor beat. there was no rules. song structure was thrown out the window. no traditional bridge. house took the best parts of disco and ran with it. just as rap music took the best of any genre of music... sucker mcs has no bassline or hook.
i dont know the answer.... and now im rambling more then ever.
i guess i will just have to deal with the fact that like chan, i am wrong.
nothing sounds the same more today than before. its always been exactly like this. the radio has never sounded so diverse.
apples and oranges
the comparison wasnt 2 turntables... it was technology/ preset audition settings on a mass produced keyboard/program hit one button and theres the beat for your grammy winning hit, vs groups having to learn how to play instruments to sound like james brown.
while the turntable is an instrument... can you play chords on it ?
practice all you want and someday you can scratch like q bert.
while we moan about music changing, while we all listen to music from way back that has stood the test of time.... how much of todays music will actually stand up to that same test ?
im loving ss today.
I enjoy chants and "hey"s repeated through out an entire song, it instantly makes me want to listen to a song
Why is playing Chords THE standard of making music?
Different tools require different approaches.
Why are stuck on this pseudo-purist approach to creating music?
I do think a lot of TSOP records sound the same.
There is an entire industry of Nigerian records basically copying the sound of Solar records and the like. Down to the melodies, dress styles, and so on. Some of these records are now highly sought after and you cannot tell me that they're any better than a record that might be found in a $1 bin stateside.
Carbon copies have always existed in music. Whether it's moreso now than before? Well... technology allows that. And the consolidation of record labels pushes it.
But as for you not being able to tell the rappers apart and the beats apart... you don't follow that scene. I think anyone moderately familiar with it can. That's not some skill - it's just knowing shit about a particular genre of music. People tell me that same thing all the time... about old music. "I can't tell this from the other funk 45/boogie 12"/psych rock album/etc"
Tell em why you mad Kon!!!!! Jyeah. I could not agree more. Almost all of the popular male artists these days are little dudes with high pitched whiny voices. None of these guys are very masculine or have any bass in their voice. Are women attracted to these metro sexual falsetto type dudes? Jaheim is the only fairly recent exception I can think of. I know this joint came out a while back, but this was SO DOPE when it dropped....
It took me all of 4 seconds to come up with SMOKEY ROBINSON as an example of a classic artist without a "masculine" voice. Barry White wasn't the only dude with hits back in the day.
Hi Ross!
I'm talkin' bout current male singers hommie.
current high voiced relevant male vocalists? try Maxwell or Saadiq.
He's talking about the fact that today's male singers ALL have high voices.
Should I suggest that Chan-San check out Z-Ro?
Already a fan of Z-Ro hommie!
Both are integral....imo.
I agree, but most current male R&B/Soul singers are all on the Falsetto steez. We need a balance!
I think I might be nearing the point where I have to retire from SoulStrut
Dudes whining about "I need a ruffneck R&B thug with a gruff voice!"
Me and deej might have to start our own forum
It might not even be a word. It might be some deejtastic emoticon.
It only seems that way because what we remember from the past are songs that have - for whatever reason - retained value to survive into the present.
There are MANY "hits" from the past that we don't remember and wouldn't want to.