Can vs. 24 Carat Black
analog_tape
604 Posts
Can - Ege Bamyasi came out in 1972, 24 Carat Black - Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth came out in 1973. Was 24 Carat Black into Can or is it just weird that both of their songs sound alike?
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I thought it was actually more than a group, that they were together before they were taken in by the producer and that he then worked with them for a long time to create the album.
Can - Vitamin C and 24 Carat Black - "24 Carat Black Theme" are the same drums and bass line on the two albums, that's what i was referencing.
Okay, I gotcha in re: specific titles. I've heard variations of the same drum patterns in jazz compositions. I know a lot of people have sampled "Vitamin C" specifically for the drums, but I need to go back and listen to both to see where you're going with the comparison. Very interesting topic...
This has come up often over the years. Last time I heard it debated, I thought the consensus was that 24CB bit Can.
I of course can't confirm this information, but I've seen the story stated similarly enough times in enough different places that I believe it to be true.
What I didn't know was that apparently they later became Shotgun
Slow down, son!
Dude asked "has anyone ever talked about this?" and my response was, "hell yeah, people have been talking about this for years." And from what I've seen, people are inclined to think it's either a complete coincidence OR that Can got bit.
No smoking gun memo to confirm this. I'd be curious to hear a few musicologists weigh in.
Moving forward with a few sidepoints about 24 CB personnel that have been made. Not everyone who was involved with the Ditalians went over to the 24 Carat Black project and not everyone who was involved with the 24 Carat Black project went to the Shotgun project. For example, Bruce Torbert and Forest Hutchinson of the Ditalians did not play a part in 24 CB, and there were at least 5 ladies involved in the music and vocals of the group that obviously did not go to Shotgun. There were over 20 members of 24 CB - the rhythm section, a lot of ancillary members and session/studio players, some of which did other work for Stax....
The five people from 24 CB who went to Shotgun were:
Ernest Latimore (guitar)
Gregory Ingram (arranger/sax)
Larry Austin (bass)
Tyrone Steele (percussion/vocal)
William Talbert (arranger/organ)
Dale Warren was the composer. Now, if a person says 24 CB bit Can, who exactly is the biter? Warren? Ingram and Talbert? The rhythm section? And if so, is the person proving the argument?
I think it's fair to say that Pharoahe Monch bit Akira Ifukube's "Godzilla vs Mothra" score or that LL Cool J and "White Lines Don't Do It" bit Liquid Liquid's "Cavern". Or that people bit ESG or any number of groups. In those cases, it is quite obvious what's going on. But when someone says 24 CB bit Can's "Vitamin C", I don't have a problem with the statement/question, I'm merely asking for concrete proof the person has of that. Or just a more fleshed out opinion, that's all...
No need to get offended by my questions, which I think are valid...
Wowzers! (P.S. don't refer to me as "son". You don't know me like that)
Now who's getting defensive?
Switch to decaf?
The simplest explanation - absent "empirical proof" (i.e. a smoking gun confirmation) - is probably #2. The chances that two tracks so similar would randomly appear within a year of one another isn't impossible but I think, reasonably speaking, it's implausible.
From a musicological point of view, the side by side comparison of the two songs IS the empirical proof. This all said, I'm open to the possibility that it was pure coincidence but I don't think that's the rational/logical assumption to make.
keeps reminding me the EMO Vs GOTH Southpark Episode... ^^
The tapes I have in the office say you're wrong. The skeleton for a second album exists, and you'll hear it soon enough.
Also, they played live for several years in the midwest and south.
send me a copy of the 24CB album, i will be happy to give you my opinion right away.
Post audio or it doesn't exist.
SHIT YA!
Analog Tape and LeftyBanks with their 'unfleshed-out' opinions versus the spambot sonnings and prog rock quizzes of Surrealist
just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..
Both rhythms rely on a fairly simple bass line / drum vamp which I'm sure you can find other examples of that "match" but I'm not sure it's as a result of direct influence...
best news ive heard in a while. similar sound?
is a TREMENDOUS look. Thank you, TNG - can't wait.
By the time "Vitamin C" came out, Can was already enjoying *relatively* high visibility but it's hard to know how far and wide their music was being heard. They were not uber-obscure however - "Vitamin C" was on their third or fourth album, "Ege Bamyasi", and that LP might even have charted on the pop charts in the U.S.
Very similar, if not a bit more experimental. Extremely dark except for a Stephen Stills cover, which is just plain funky. There were close to ten tapes worth of material, sadly 7 of them were damaged beyond repair.
I've condensed the icons, excuse the inaccurate quote.