just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..
Both rhythms rely on a fairly simple bass line / drum vamp which I'm sure you can find other examples of that "match" but I'm not sure it's as a result of direct influence...
By the time "Vitamin C" came out, Can was already enjoying *relatively* high visibility but it's hard to know how far and wide their music was being heard. They were not uber-obscure however - "Vitamin C" was on their third or fourth album, "Ege Bamyasi", and that LP might even have charted on the pop charts in the U.S.
No.
They only charted in Europe with "Spoon" in regards to that LP, I believe (and that because it was the theme to a TV show)...that LP, from stories the older cats have told me, could be found in the cut out bins a couple years later here in the states. Can were obscure stuff to a midwesterner in those days...
just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..
Both rhythms rely on a fairly simple bass line / drum vamp which I'm sure you can find other examples of that "match" but I'm not sure it's as a result of direct influence...
By the time "Vitamin C" came out, Can was already enjoying *relatively* high visibility but it's hard to know how far and wide their music was being heard. They were not uber-obscure however - "Vitamin C" was on their third or fourth album, "Ege Bamyasi", and that LP might even have charted on the pop charts in the U.S.
It did not. According to the Billboard reference books, no Can album made the album charts at all.
I'm sure they had their cult, as obscure prog-rock tended to (here in Chicago in the '70s, there used to be an FM rock station that played this kind of music in regular rotation). But as far as hard cold statistics go, Can were not a presence on the American charts.
just how popular were Can at the time? I know we would consider them an official part of the canon nowadays but were they well known enough to reach the ears of 24 carat black? Surely they were a little known german band at the time..
"Sorry fellas, there is more than 1 24 Carat Black album. I signed the lease on the 30+ year old master tapes yesterday. We (24 Carat Black) recorded the stuff back in 1974. Out of some 12 songs, 6 survived the 34 years. SOme exciting samples can be made from the other 6 tunes. Numero Records ahs the lease."
I did just that. This is what Bruce Thompson wrote back: "Dale warren often created basslines right there in the studio. To create a groove, we would start off with about 15 minutes of quarter note drills. Then one by one he would wisper in the ears of the musicians. He would always start with the bass."
He says he had never heard of the Can song so then I sent him a link to take a listen and got him to weigh in on it.
And Bruce then wrote back: "Amazing! It seems more than similar. There is the poss[ibility] that the bass player himself [for Can] heard this track and it influenced his playing. Had Dale heard this track first he would have evaded the simularity" [sic].
Translation: either Can bit 24 Carat Black or the similarity in the two songs was a complete coincidence since, as far as Thompson is concerned, Warren wouldn't have knowingly copied a bassline he heard from elsewhere.
This is really driving my curiosity so I sent off the two songs to a friend of mine who is a musicology professor and is often called upon to testify on cases involving alleged song copyright violations. I'll see if he'll be willing to render an opinion on the matter.
From my perspective, I would love to think this is just a cosmic coincidence but listening to these two songs side by side, there are three points of very close similarity:
1) the bassline 2) the drumming (not necessarily the exact same pattern, but the style and approach) 3) the tempo (both are 115/6 BPM)
1 out of 3 = coincidence. 2 out of 3 = coincidence but with some doubt inject. 3 out of 3 = much doubt.
I don't care so much "who influenced who" but the idea that these two songs could have developed - within a year of one another - independently of one another is hard to fathom.
I see where you're coming from, but from a technical standpoint the style of the drumming is actually pretty different:
1.) Jaki is throwing fills almost every bar.
2.) 24 carat black drummer is swinging more, whereas Jaki is playing pretty straight.
3.) Jaki is way more energetic on the kick with the doubles.
4.) Jaki is playing the hi hat with his foot and his hands (not just barks, but the actual notes), whereas the 24cb drummer is only playing it with his hand.
Funny though - I was reading that Holger's creative process sounds a lot like Warren's - straight improv in the studio steez.
I wouldn't be surprised if has a time machine.
I don't know much about 24cb, but I doubt it was like Holgers. For Can they owned their own studio. On their early--and greatest--work (TM, EB, and FD) they would just jam in the studio recording to 2 track. Each musician was responsible for their own levels in the mix. Holger would then go back and cut the tape up, splicing everything together into songs. If you listen closely, and you know what you're listening for you can hear the edits. Dude is a serious badass.
I honestly don't hear any blatant biting here. Artistic influence? Perhaps, but nothing that would hold up in copyright court. This is definitely not a "My Sweet Lord" situation.
Every bassist has played some variation on that bassline at one time or another, it's a basic root - fifth - root - minor third line. Can and 24CB are of course in different keys, but the real difference is the syncopated double note (c - g -c - eb - C+G) that the 24CB bassist plays, forming the basic rhythm of the song.
The drumming in the beginning sounds like pretty standard funky drums drumming, with the Can song progressing into some more militaristic march steez while 24CB kept the the funk.
Comments
It's not gonna be "Love The One You're With" or "For What It's Worth," is it? Those are probably the two most covered songs in his catalog...
No.
They only charted in Europe with "Spoon" in regards to that LP, I believe (and that because it was the theme to a TV show)...that LP, from stories the older cats have told me, could be found in the cut out bins a couple years later here in the states. Can were obscure stuff to a midwesterner in those days...
It did not. According to the Billboard reference books, no Can album made the album charts at all.
I'm sure they had their cult, as obscure prog-rock tended to (here in Chicago in the '70s, there used to be an FM rock station that played this kind of music in regular rotation). But as far as hard cold statistics go, Can were not a presence on the American charts.
Well, goddamn. That's great news. May I ask when "soon enough" is?
Soon enough is not SOON ENOUGH
best news this week. thank you.
Yall don't think Malcolm had no cousins?
- spidey
"Sorry fellas, there is more than 1 24 Carat Black album. I signed the lease on the 30+ year old master tapes yesterday. We (24 Carat Black) recorded the stuff back in 1974. Out of some 12 songs, 6 survived the 34 years. SOme exciting samples can be made from the other 6 tunes. Numero Records ahs the lease."
Trust me, there is nothing to be sorry about..... !
I did just that. This is what Bruce Thompson wrote back: "Dale warren often created basslines right there in the studio. To create a groove, we would start off with about 15 minutes of quarter note drills. Then one by one he would wisper in the ears of the musicians. He would always start with the bass."
He says he had never heard of the Can song so then I sent him a link to take a listen and got him to weigh in on it.
And Bruce then wrote back: "Amazing! It seems more than similar. There is the poss[ibility] that the bass player himself [for Can] heard this track and it influenced his playing. Had Dale heard this track first he would have evaded the simularity" [sic].
Translation: either Can bit 24 Carat Black or the similarity in the two songs was a complete coincidence since, as far as Thompson is concerned, Warren wouldn't have knowingly copied a bassline he heard from elsewhere.
The debate continues!
From my perspective, I would love to think this is just a cosmic coincidence but listening to these two songs side by side, there are three points of very close similarity:
1) the bassline
2) the drumming (not necessarily the exact same pattern, but the style and approach)
3) the tempo (both are 115/6 BPM)
1 out of 3 = coincidence.
2 out of 3 = coincidence but with some doubt inject.
3 out of 3 = much doubt.
I don't care so much "who influenced who" but the idea that these two songs could have developed - within a year of one another - independently of one another is hard to fathom.
To ask if he had a time machine?
Funny though - I was reading that Holger's creative process sounds a lot like Warren's - straight improv in the studio steez.
Seriously!
1.) Jaki is throwing fills almost every bar.
2.) 24 carat black drummer is swinging more, whereas Jaki is playing pretty straight.
3.) Jaki is way more energetic on the kick with the doubles.
4.) Jaki is playing the hi hat with his foot and his hands (not just barks, but the actual notes), whereas the 24cb drummer is only playing it with his hand.
I wouldn't be surprised if has a time machine.
I don't know much about 24cb, but I doubt it was like Holgers. For Can they owned their own studio. On their early--and greatest--work (TM, EB, and FD) they would just jam in the studio recording to 2 track. Each musician was responsible for their own levels in the mix. Holger would then go back and cut the tape up, splicing everything together into songs. If you listen closely, and you know what you're listening for you can hear the edits. Dude is a serious badass.
You mis-spelled "snoozefest."
I honestly don't hear any blatant biting here. Artistic influence? Perhaps, but nothing that would hold up in copyright court.
This is definitely not a "My Sweet Lord" situation.
The drumming in the beginning sounds like pretty standard funky drums drumming, with the Can song progressing into some more militaristic march steez while 24CB kept the the funk.