And for the record, I don't think liberal arts degrees are "worthless". The world needs anthropologists. But here's the thing... the road to becoming an anthropologist and the road to becoming a computer programmer are the same road. Or a poetry major. or an ethnomusicologist.
I think it would be "neat" to be an ethnomusicologist, but the real world is a bitch and I have to put food on the table so I work with computers instead. And I like having money. But like I said, I don't make the rules, I had to take these classes to get my piece of paper so I could get my job. I didn't cheat or anything, I did my best in most of the classes (except chinese art), I learned what I could, but my purpose wasn't education. my purpose was getting that shit done so I could make some money.
Nobody makes the liberal arts kid hold a computer job for 4 years before the can study art.
And three colleagues I know all got jobs this year to teach ethnomusicology or music.
That sort of proves my point. They got jobs teaching what they just learned.
and the "real world vs. academia" distinction isn't something I personally made up, thats been around forever. But it goes like this: Q. What kind of jobs can you get as an ethnomusicologist? A. Teaching Ethnomusicology.
EDIT: and if they are making ethnomusicologists take a C++ class then its the same thing. I would expect him/her to blow it off or at the very least, not really care.
But dude, do you even know what the likelihood of finding employment in those two respective fields even are?
You make it sound like computer engineers have an easy time finding work while anthropologists don't but a lot fewer people pursue careers in anthro than they do in comp sci.
And the road to becoming both are NOT the same road since to become an anthropologist requires at least 5-7 years of graduate school unlike programming. Which is partially why people are less likely to pursue anthropology or ethnomusicology - it just takes too damn long...but it's not because the professions - in and of themselves - are less employable in the grand scheme.
Of all the people I went to grad school with, none of them are out of work. They may not be working their "dream job" but if it's about putting food on the table, well, all of them are getting by.
I just object to this idea that the "real world" has rules around careers and employment that are specific to some professions but not others. We all play by the same rules!
U sound mad because you don't like your job (aside from the paycheck).
And three colleagues I know all got jobs this year to teach ethnomusicology or music.
That sort of proves my point. They got jobs teaching what they just learned.
and the "real world vs. academia" distinction isn't something I personally made up, thats been around forever. But it goes like this: Q. What kind of jobs can you get as an ethnomusicologist? A. Teaching Ethnomusicology.
EDIT: and if they are making ethnomusicologists take a C++ class then its the same thing. I would expect him/her to blow it off or at the very least, not really care.
Dude, your logic is mad circular.
Try it this way:
Q: What kind of jobs can you get as an academic? A: Becoming an academic.
No one pursues a PhD in any liberal arts field unless they plan on going into academia. It's not as if you get a degree in ethnomusicology thinking you "might do something else." If you're not down to teach and do research I>you don't go for your PhD[/i].
Now, if you're talking about an ethnomusicology BA, that's a different story but you can't be called an ethnomusicologist with just a bachelor's degree.
I've got a question for the profs/instructors here. If someone had to retake your class, how would you feel about them reusing assignments they had already turned in to you?
My last semester of college I had to take a required business writing course. It was pretty much BS - how to write emails, requests for information, etc - and it was graded: A, B, or no credit, meaning you had to retake the class. I did very well on the work that I turned in and aced every test including the final, but I was a major dummy and shined some of the assignments. I ended up with a final score of 75% for the semester meaning I had to enroll in an extra semester just to retake this class. I asked the instructor (the SAME instructor) if I could resubmit the assignments I had already done since she was using the exact same syllabus as the previous semester, and she told me no because I would be guilty of "self-plagiarism" and could be expelled.
I ended up doing it anyway with only minor corrections and she never said anything, so I'm thinking she just told me that because she felt she had to, but didn't really care either way.
I've got a question for the profs/instructors here. If someone had to retake your class, how would you feel about them reusing assignments they had already turned in to you?
My last semester of college I had to take a required business writing course. It was pretty much BS - how to write emails, requests for information, etc - and it was graded: A, B, or no credit, meaning you had to retake the class. I did very well on the work that I turned in and aced every test including the final, but I was a major dummy and shined some of the assignments. I ended up with a final score of 75% for the semester meaning I had to enroll in an extra semester just to retake this class. I asked the instructor (the SAME instructor) if I could resubmit the assignments I had already done since she was using the exact same syllabus as the previous semester, and she told me no because I would be guilty of "self-plagiarism" and could be expelled.
I ended up doing it anyway with only minor corrections and she never said anything, so I'm thinking she just told me that because she felt she had to, but didn't really care either way.
Sucks but I'd agree with your instructor. If you're unlucky to have to take the same course twice, you're unlucky enough to have to write NEW assignments.
This - to me - is a rather unusual case. The only times I get the same students twice (which hasn't happened yet anyway) is if they fail the course and are retaking to get a better grade. IN which case, they probably WANT to write new assignments since, presumably, their bad assignments is what got them a failing grade the first time around.
But dude, do you even know what the likelihood of finding employment in those two respective fields even are?
You make it sound like computer engineers have an easy time finding work while anthropologists don't but a lot fewer people pursue careers in anthro than they do in comp sci.
And the road to becoming both are NOT the same road since to become an anthropologist requires at least 5-7 years of graduate school unlike programming. Which is partially why people are less likely to pursue anthropology or ethnomusicology - it just takes too damn long...but it's not because the professions - in and of themselves - are less employable in the grand scheme.
Of all the people I went to grad school with, none of them are out of work. They may not be working their "dream job" but if it's about putting food on the table, well, all of them are getting by.
I just object to this idea that the "real world" has rules around careers and employment that are specific to some professions but not others. We all play by the same rules!
U sound mad because you don't like your job (aside from the paycheck).
I love my job, (and the paycheck)! And I suppose I didn't mind forking over thousands of dollars to learn stuff that I don't use at my job becuase it's what I had to do. I knew it going in.
My only objection to anything in this thread is that you look down on people who go to college to "get that peice of paper", as if that's not a legitimate reason. But not only is it legit, but its been pounded in our heads since birth. You have to get good grades. Why? So you can go to college? Why? So you can get a job. So kids are marching in there thinking "this is how I get a job". Don't get mad at that. Its keeping you employed.
And I disagree with the idea that people don't become anthropologist because it takes too long. But when the average person thinks of "real-world" skills they think of accounting, computers, business, or doctor, lawyer, etc. These are jobs that you meet people with every day. How often do you meet an anthropologist? Or a poetry major outside of school? Of course I think anthropology is WAY more important in this world than what I do. When I'm dead and gone my work won't mean shit to anybody, but Anthropology and Ethnomusicology and Archaeology and History, all that stuff is more important than what I do. And you have to go to college for those jobs to learn that stuff. But I don't do that, so I went for the peice of paper. A stepping stone if you will. But if I got what I needed out of it, then I don't see what the big deal is.
How would you meet a poetry major outside of school? Don't you technically have to be in school to be any major? I don't meet accounting majors outside of school either!
Ok, that nicky-picky point aside, the distinction you're drawing is that some degrees seem - for lack of a better term, "vocational" - because there is a clear, direct line between what they learn and what they do. A liberal arts education isn't as obvious - there are few "liberal arts jobs" out there (aside from academia) but given that the most common degree anyone is likely to graduate with is a liberal arts degree...clearly, they find employment...just not in something as obvious as "accounting degree --> accounting career."
I also think you missed Stacks and Ariel's points about how treating college as a certificate is ruining higher ed as an industry. So it actually may NOT keep us employed if things continue to stagnate down the same path.
I admit I don't understand their point about how its ruining higher-ed as an industry. unless the point is that when my dad got his bachelors it was something special to have gone to college and have a degree. it wasn't something a lot of people did. now its something that everybody entering the workforce is expected to have, so now to stand out it almost seems like you need a master's degree. I don't think being a "college graduate" holds nearly the weight that it once did, and if that's your point then I readily acknowledge it.
Beleive me, I wish my bachelor's degree was special (well, now that I'm gainfully employed I don't care, but when I was looking for a job I did.) I was so desperate a few years ago that I was tempted to go back to school just to get a masters. because 5 years ago I was just one of a million knuckleheads with a bachelor's degree trying to get a job. I had nothing (except army experience) to set my resume apart from everybody else's.
Back in the day I was PISSED. I guess I was just naive enough to think "Go to college, get a job" just "happened". I didn't realize that I would graduate and be just like every other person with a degree in their hand begging for work somehwere. I figured I would send in a few resumes, do a few interviews, and then get a job. I wasn't ready for what really happened. I was bitter as F*ck back then too. Every day I though "I did what I was supposed to do. I went to school and I got good grades and I got my degree, and nobody cares." I never got a call back from any of the businesses in the private sector because all I had was a degree and no experience. It was starting to all feel pretty worthless. The only reason I went was so I could get a job, and when a year had gone by, then 2, and I still didn't have a job and nobody was calling responding to my resumes and companies weren't hiring, and my degree seemed like a worthless peice of paper. I didn't care about what I learned I cared about getting a career and having a life. And i wasn't the only one. I bumped into one of the dudes that I went to school with and he was in construction. He had just given up on getting a computer job becuase nobody was hiring. That was a few years down the road after he had forgotten everything that he had learned in the first place. So to him it was a complete waste of time. He invested all that time and money and wound up with the same job a highschool grad could get. He was depressed. He gave me his phone number and I never called him because I felt guilty that I had been lucky enough to eventually land a job. It made me sad somehow.
Anyways, I was lucky enough to be a vet because the govt has a veteran's hiring preference. Did the career counselor's at school tell me that? nope, I found out through a friend, and now I have a job that I love and I get paid well.
But I still have the lingering feeling that having a bachelor's degree today is equivelent to have a HS diploma 30 years ago. You don't have to work at mcdonalds, but you aren't very special either.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
I admit I don't understand their point about how its ruining higher-ed as an industry. unless the point is that when my dad got his bachelors it was something special to have gone to college and have a degree. it wasn't something a lot of people did. now its something that everybody entering the workforce is expected to have, so now to stand out it almost seems like you need a master's degree. I don't think being a "college graduate" holds nearly the weight that it once did, and if that's your point then I readily acknowledge it.
Beleive me, I wish my bachelor's degree was special (well, now that I'm gainfully employed I don't care, but when I was looking for a job I did.) I was so desperate a few years ago that I was tempted to go back to school just to get a masters. because 5 years ago I was just one of a million knuckleheads with a bachelor's degree trying to get a job. I had nothing (except army experience) to set my resume apart from everybody else's.
Back in the day I was PISSED. I guess I was just naive enough to think "Go to college, get a job" just "happened". I didn't realize that I would graduate and be just like every other person with a degree in their hand begging for work somehwere. I figured I would send in a few resumes, do a few interviews, and then get a job. I wasn't ready for what really happened. I was bitter as F*ck back then too. Every day I though "I did what I was supposed to do. I went to school and I got good grades and I got my degree, and nobody cares." I never got a call back from any of the businesses in the private sector because all I had was a degree and no experience. It was starting to all feel pretty worthless. The only reason I went was so I could get a job, and when a year had gone by, then 2, and I still didn't have a job and nobody was calling responding to my resumes and companies weren't hiring, and my degree seemed like a worthless peice of paper. I didn't care about what I learned I cared about getting a career and having a life. And i wasn't the only one. I bumped into one of the dudes that I went to school with and he was in construction. He had just given up on getting a computer job becuase nobody was hiring. That was a few years down the road after he had forgotten everything that he had learned in the first place. So to him it was a complete waste of time. He invested all that time and money and wound up with the same job a highschool grad could get. He was depressed. He gave me his phone number and I never called him because I felt guilty that I had been lucky enough to eventually land a job. It made me sad somehow.
Anyways, I was lucky enough to be a vet because the govt has a veteran's hiring preference. Did the career counselor's at school tell me that? nope, I found out through a friend, and now I have a job that I love and I get paid well.
But I still have the lingering feeling that having a bachelor's degree today is equivelent to have a HS diploma 30 years ago. You don't have to work at mcdonalds, but you aren't very special either.
Hey Gary,
The "credential-getting" mentality is ruining higher education because students are relatively uninterested in learning. When students don't learn, they're ill-prepared to enter the work world. Employers who hire such students will end up firing them, and if this is a pattern for a particular institution, it will develop a negative reputation with said employer. This further leads to poor placement rates for students from the institution since it graduates incompetent students. This tendency is exacerbated by grade inflation such that grades over-estimate the extent of learning, rendering them useless as an index of student quality for employers to use in screening. Professors feel pressure for high teaching ratings from students, invoking some of them to dumb down their syllabi, further devolving student learning and qualification.
Thus, the vicious cycle described slowly erodes the value of a college degree. Much of this process has been perpetuated by college administrators who want the increased tuition revenues generated by putting more asses (many of which are ill-equipped academically and emotionally) in classroom seats. I feel the most sympathy for top-notch students who have to be subjected to unmotivated, utility-driven nimrods who bring down class quality. I remember the days when class quality got better after the wave of midterm drops. Now, poor students hang on in classes like grabbing a life raft for survival. This is depressing. Also, the focus on credential alone is driving the on-line and "pay-for-degree" programs which typically have lower quality than traditional colleges/universities. This might explain why the U.S. is ranked in the mid-20's for public education. A dumber populace does not make us very competitive in a world-wide marketplace.
But it goes like this: Q. What kind of jobs can you get as an ethnomusicologist? A. Teaching Ethnomusicology.
Actually, being an ethnomusicologist is a pretty sensible occupation, that is in no way limited to working strictly in academia. Ethnomusicologists are certified music specialists, and the way they use their degrees is up to interpretation. I think, unfortunately, most people that get ethno degrees are not creative musical types who can cook up ways to floss their cred and turn it into work. I know you can testify in court as a specialist for copyright infringement (no maam, I don't believe that the defendant used any portion of the plaintiff's material); you're a pretty good candidate for music related jobs in the entertainment industry (movies, books, and television often have a need to be historically/culturally accurate, and an ethnomusicologist can step in to to provide the proper information); you can work with museums, private corporations and non-profits building programming and/or marketing. It's only as limiting as you make it.
Comments
I think it would be "neat" to be an ethnomusicologist, but the real world is a bitch and I have to put food on the table so I work with computers instead. And I like having money. But like I said, I don't make the rules, I had to take these classes to get my piece of paper so I could get my job. I didn't cheat or anything, I did my best in most of the classes (except chinese art), I learned what I could, but my purpose wasn't education. my purpose was getting that shit done so I could make some money.
Nobody makes the liberal arts kid hold a computer job for 4 years before the can study art.
That sort of proves my point. They got jobs teaching what they just learned.
and the "real world vs. academia" distinction isn't something I personally made up, thats been around forever. But it goes like this:
Q. What kind of jobs can you get as an ethnomusicologist?
A. Teaching Ethnomusicology.
EDIT: and if they are making ethnomusicologists take a C++ class then its the same thing. I would expect him/her to blow it off or at the very least, not really care.
You make it sound like computer engineers have an easy time finding work while anthropologists don't but a lot fewer people pursue careers in anthro than they do in comp sci.
And the road to becoming both are NOT the same road since to become an anthropologist requires at least 5-7 years of graduate school unlike programming. Which is partially why people are less likely to pursue anthropology or ethnomusicology - it just takes too damn long...but it's not because the professions - in and of themselves - are less employable in the grand scheme.
Of all the people I went to grad school with, none of them are out of work. They may not be working their "dream job" but if it's about putting food on the table, well, all of them are getting by.
I just object to this idea that the "real world" has rules around careers and employment that are specific to some professions but not others. We all play by the same rules!
U sound mad because you don't like your job (aside from the paycheck).
Dude, your logic is mad circular.
Try it this way:
Q: What kind of jobs can you get as an academic?
A: Becoming an academic.
No one pursues a PhD in any liberal arts field unless they plan on going into academia. It's not as if you get a degree in ethnomusicology thinking you "might do something else." If you're not down to teach and do research I>you don't go for your PhD[/i].
Now, if you're talking about an ethnomusicology BA, that's a different story but you can't be called an ethnomusicologist with just a bachelor's degree.
My last semester of college I had to take a required business writing course. It was pretty much BS - how to write emails, requests for information, etc - and it was graded: A, B, or no credit, meaning you had to retake the class. I did very well on the work that I turned in and aced every test including the final, but I was a major dummy and shined some of the assignments. I ended up with a final score of 75% for the semester meaning I had to enroll in an extra semester just to retake this class. I asked the instructor (the SAME instructor) if I could resubmit the assignments I had already done since she was using the exact same syllabus as the previous semester, and she told me no because I would be guilty of "self-plagiarism" and could be expelled.
I ended up doing it anyway with only minor corrections and she never said anything, so I'm thinking she just told me that because she felt she had to, but didn't really care either way.
Sucks but I'd agree with your instructor. If you're unlucky to have to take the same course twice, you're unlucky enough to have to write NEW assignments.
This - to me - is a rather unusual case. The only times I get the same students twice (which hasn't happened yet anyway) is if they fail the course and are retaking to get a better grade. IN which case, they probably WANT to write new assignments since, presumably, their bad assignments is what got them a failing grade the first time around.
I love my job, (and the paycheck)! And I suppose I didn't mind forking over thousands of dollars to learn stuff that I don't use at my job becuase it's what I had to do. I knew it going in.
My only objection to anything in this thread is that you look down on people who go to college to "get that peice of paper", as if that's not a legitimate reason. But not only is it legit, but its been pounded in our heads since birth. You have to get good grades. Why? So you can go to college? Why? So you can get a job. So kids are marching in there thinking "this is how I get a job". Don't get mad at that. Its keeping you employed.
And I disagree with the idea that people don't become anthropologist because it takes too long. But when the average person thinks of "real-world" skills they think of accounting, computers, business, or doctor, lawyer, etc. These are jobs that you meet people with every day. How often do you meet an anthropologist? Or a poetry major outside of school? Of course I think anthropology is WAY more important in this world than what I do. When I'm dead and gone my work won't mean shit to anybody, but Anthropology and Ethnomusicology and Archaeology and History, all that stuff is more important than what I do. And you have to go to college for those jobs to learn that stuff. But I don't do that, so I went for the peice of paper. A stepping stone if you will. But if I got what I needed out of it, then I don't see what the big deal is.
Ok, that nicky-picky point aside, the distinction you're drawing is that some degrees seem - for lack of a better term, "vocational" - because there is a clear, direct line between what they learn and what they do. A liberal arts education isn't as obvious - there are few "liberal arts jobs" out there (aside from academia) but given that the most common degree anyone is likely to graduate with is a liberal arts degree...clearly, they find employment...just not in something as obvious as "accounting degree --> accounting career."
I also think you missed Stacks and Ariel's points about how treating college as a certificate is ruining higher ed as an industry. So it actually may NOT keep us employed if things continue to stagnate down the same path.
Beleive me, I wish my bachelor's degree was special (well, now that I'm gainfully employed I don't care, but when I was looking for a job I did.) I was so desperate a few years ago that I was tempted to go back to school just to get a masters. because 5 years ago I was just one of a million knuckleheads with a bachelor's degree trying to get a job. I had nothing (except army experience) to set my resume apart from everybody else's.
Back in the day I was PISSED. I guess I was just naive enough to think "Go to college, get a job" just "happened". I didn't realize that I would graduate and be just like every other person with a degree in their hand begging for work somehwere. I figured I would send in a few resumes, do a few interviews, and then get a job. I wasn't ready for what really happened. I was bitter as F*ck back then too. Every day I though "I did what I was supposed to do. I went to school and I got good grades and I got my degree, and nobody cares." I never got a call back from any of the businesses in the private sector because all I had was a degree and no experience. It was starting to all feel pretty worthless. The only reason I went was so I could get a job, and when a year had gone by, then 2, and I still didn't have a job and nobody was calling responding to my resumes and companies weren't hiring, and my degree seemed like a worthless peice of paper. I didn't care about what I learned I cared about getting a career and having a life. And i wasn't the only one. I bumped into one of the dudes that I went to school with and he was in construction. He had just given up on getting a computer job becuase nobody was hiring. That was a few years down the road after he had forgotten everything that he had learned in the first place. So to him it was a complete waste of time. He invested all that time and money and wound up with the same job a highschool grad could get. He was depressed. He gave me his phone number and I never called him because I felt guilty that I had been lucky enough to eventually land a job. It made me sad somehow.
Anyways, I was lucky enough to be a vet because the govt has a veteran's hiring preference. Did the career counselor's at school tell me that? nope, I found out through a friend, and now I have a job that I love and I get paid well.
But I still have the lingering feeling that having a bachelor's degree today is equivelent to have a HS diploma 30 years ago. You don't have to work at mcdonalds, but you aren't very special either.
Hey Gary,
The "credential-getting" mentality is ruining higher education because students are relatively uninterested in learning. When students don't learn, they're ill-prepared to enter the work world. Employers who hire such students will end up firing them, and if this is a pattern for a particular institution, it will develop a negative reputation with said employer. This further leads to poor placement rates for students from the institution since it graduates incompetent students. This tendency is exacerbated by grade inflation such that grades over-estimate the extent of learning, rendering them useless as an index of student quality for employers to use in screening. Professors feel pressure for high teaching ratings from students, invoking some of them to dumb down their syllabi, further devolving student learning and qualification.
Thus, the vicious cycle described slowly erodes the value of a college degree. Much of this process has been perpetuated by college administrators who want the increased tuition revenues generated by putting more asses (many of which are ill-equipped academically and emotionally) in classroom seats. I feel the most sympathy for top-notch students who have to be subjected to unmotivated, utility-driven nimrods who bring down class quality. I remember the days when class quality got better after the wave of midterm drops. Now, poor students hang on in classes like grabbing a life raft for survival. This is depressing. Also, the focus on credential alone is driving the on-line and "pay-for-degree" programs which typically have lower quality than traditional colleges/universities. This might explain why the U.S. is ranked in the mid-20's for public education. A dumber populace does not make us very competitive in a world-wide marketplace.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Actually, being an ethnomusicologist is a pretty sensible occupation, that is in no way limited to working strictly in academia. Ethnomusicologists are certified music specialists, and the way they use their degrees is up to interpretation. I think, unfortunately, most people that get ethno degrees are not creative musical types who can cook up ways to floss their cred and turn it into work. I know you can testify in court as a specialist for copyright infringement (no maam, I don't believe that the defendant used any portion of the plaintiff's material); you're a pretty good candidate for music related jobs in the entertainment industry (movies, books, and television often have a need to be historically/culturally accurate, and an ethnomusicologist can step in to to provide the proper information); you can work with museums, private corporations and non-profits building programming and/or marketing. It's only as limiting as you make it.