"More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "
I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.
IMO the current definition of "funk" that people nowadays seem to be confidently rolling with excludes about 49% of what I would call funk from the equation.
it would be cool of they found unreleased tina turner funk tracks from "the era"as heavy as bold soul sister
I would be loving this if it were to happen. Those cuts would be
As for the topic at hand, I would probably say Lyn Collins, but failing that...I might give a nod to Carol Kaye on some "you might not know who she is, but you definitely know her work," Funk Bros.-in-Shadows of Motown steez.
If you want the woman who was most important to funk; creating it, shaping it, influencing those who sang it, then Aretha has to be at the top of your list.
That'd be like naming Louis Jordan and Isaac Hayes as the most influential old-school rappers. You could trace it BACK to them, they might be ancestors, they might be precursors, whatever...but you couldn't call them rap as we know it.
As much as I respect Laser Wolf's opinion (and I'm always checking for his posts), Aretha did indeed (help) create it, shape it, and influence it...but she ain't IT. At least not to me.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
"More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "
I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.
IMO the current definition of "funk" that people nowadays seem to be confidently rolling with excludes about 49% of what I would call funk from the equation.
'Splain please!
IMO any definition of funk that does not recognize New Orleans as the birthplace of funk is missing the boat entirely. And according to average Joe nowadays Professor's Longhair's Big Chief isn't "funk". Smokey Johnson's It Ain't My Fault isn't funk. And so on. People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category and thus so does the true way that funk was formulated as its own genre.
I also don't like how later versions of funk get subordinated as much as they do in favor of the mid-to-late-60's, gutbucket 45 blueprint for funk.
The walls put up by dudes nowadays in their efforts to definitively categorize music are simply far too tall and expansive to accurately portray all that is funk and why.
"More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "
I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.
IMO the current definition of "funk" that people nowadays seem to be confidently rolling with excludes about 49% of what I would call funk from the equation.
'Splain please!
IMO any definition of funk that does not recognize New Orleans as the birthplace of funk is missing the boat entirely. And according to average Joe nowadays Professor's Longhair's Big Chief isn't "funk". Smokey Johnson's It Ain't My Fault isn't funk. And so on. People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category and thus so does the true way that funk was formulated as its own genre.
I also don't like how later versions of funk get subordinated as much as they do in favor of the mid-to-late-60's, gutbucket 45 blueprint for funk.
The walls put up by dudes nowadays in their efforts to definitively categorize music are simply far too tall and expansive to accurately portray all that is funk and why.
I thought we were talking about females. you're just going off on a tangent now.
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
besides the criteria for most important funk singer seems a little vague. Are we talking about funk back in its respective day or are you looking back it with a view on how its considered today?
Spanky Wilsons "Light My Fire" and "Sunshine of your love" are 2 very well loved funk tunes by todays fans.
Denise LaSalle (Has she ever been mentioned on soulstrut? I think she is great. Of course she is southern soul 100%, not funk)
i was just namedropping her yesterday over in the "westbound/eastbound" thread. not funky, but a totally underrated performer (she's still around, BTW)
"More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "
I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.
IMO the current definition of "funk" that people nowadays seem to be confidently rolling with excludes about 49% of what I would call funk from the equation.
'Splain please!
IMO any definition of funk that does not recognize New Orleans as the birthplace of funk is missing the boat entirely. And according to average Joe nowadays Professor's Longhair's Big Chief isn't "funk". Smokey Johnson's It Ain't My Fault isn't funk. And so on. People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category and thus so does the true way that funk was formulated as its own genre.
I also don't like how later versions of funk get subordinated as much as they do in favor of the mid-to-late-60's, gutbucket 45 blueprint for funk.
The walls put up by dudes nowadays in their efforts to definitively categorize music are simply far too tall and expansive to accurately portray all that is funk and why.
I thought we were talking about females. you're just going off on a tangent now.
no doubt.
But ill co-sign on cats disregarding Funk in the early 80's till now.
Honorable mention to the sisters in The Family Stone even if they didnt have solo projects.
well, one of them had an album on Motown (as "Rose Banks"), but I couldn't tell you if it was funk or not
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
Also, you can't swipe a solid and long-standing foundation of drums and basslines as played by NOLA marching bands...replace the tuba with a bass guitar and then declare that you've created a whole new genre.
The Professor Longhair's and Smokey Johnson's and Dave Bartholomew's openly considered their musics as extensions of NOLA second line traditions...but for some reason James Brown, who really only developed renditions of those same traditions into new areas, can't.
That whole type of exclusionary treatment when it comes to funk is short-sighted and ultimately wrong.
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
along these lines, I have considered Yvonne Fair "Say yeah yeah" to be the first funk track...then again its the '63 Famous Flames backing her...back to the JB factor...but an important female funk artist in that respect...
I don't want to sound like I don't have love for Chaka Khan, but I can't see her as being more important than Jackson, in influence and shaping the sound, seeing as she started putting out records at least four or five years after Jackson.
Like Millie, Chaka also tried other genres - jazz, rap, house, pop - so I wouldn't really use that as a criteria to take anyone out of the running. I mean chances are you're going to explore other sounds when you're putting as many records as Jackson and Kahn (and Franklin) have and for as long. And the gospel/soul/r&b/funk crossover is natural and inevitable.
I hesitate to make the most famous equal to most important; sometimes the student outshines the teacher, but s/he was still the pupil.
How many signature songs by Millie are str8 Funk vs Chaka's signature songs?
I agree that NOLA doesn't get the respect it deserves but if we're gonna take it there then there's an even better argument that Havana is the proto-proto-funk city since it the poly-rhythm that emerges from New Orleans music traces back to the syncopation of the Cuban clave. (Which would then lead us back to...the Kongo region of Africa)
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
HELL NO, that is ENTIRELY WRONG...if anything it should be the other way around, with every bit of James Brown's classification as a funk artist put through a filter of the NOLA artists who inspired him to do anything beyond soul ballads.
Little Richard had to come to New Orleans to fully wrap his head around what it meant to be funky. And James Brown did the same shit...he just took it back to Georgia before recording it. Point being, funk was fully alive and kicking in NOLA long before outsiders came in and put their own minor spins on it.
Dude, Spanky Wilson's shit was fire. But the best female in funk?
This isn't a laundry list of "female artists whose funk songs you enjoyed."
I'm talking about Numero Uno. Spanky isn't remotely in that convo.
yeah your right, Spanky ain't the top of the heap, but I think if the perspective you are coming from is people now looking back on the funk genre you have to throw in those that get a lot of respect in funk clubs/ Funk conversations
Personally I think that Marva Whitney is the top of the heap. 2 solid LP's with lots of funk, a rep as one of the funkiest sista's in James Browns camp and a favorite on dance floors.
I think you'd be more likely to hear marva at a funk club than you would Chaka Khan
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
HELL NO, that is ENTIRELY WRONG...if anything it should be the other way around, with every bit of James Brown's classification as a funk artist put through a filter of the NOLA artists who inspired him to do anything beyond soul ballads.
Little Richard had to come to New Orleans to fully wrap his head around what it meant to be funky. And James Brown did the same shit...he just took it back to Georgia before recording it. Point being, funk was fully alive and kicking in NOLA long before outsiders came in and put their own minor spins on it.
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
Nope - "Big Chief" is proto-funk because with that track, I can hear it coming but it ain't quite there.
But with "Hook & Sling" or "Sophisticated Cissy" (both from '69), you knew the funk train had definitely arrived.Note that my two examples were both New Orleans records...[/b]
Wait a minute, let me back up the record to something you said earlier:
Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown??? YOU'RE the one that keeps bringing up JB, not me. I ain't the one taking away NOLA's funk cred! And for the record, I'd put "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" in the proto-funk category along with "Big Chief."
Ya see, "Papa's Brand New Bag" told ya funk was COMING. "Cold Sweat" said FUNK IS HERE.
Or, in other words: "Big Chief" - funk is coming "Hook & Sling" - funk is here
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. And no, Fats Domino's "Blueberry Hill" AIN'T funk! (((grin)))
Say, weren't we s'posed to be talking about funky females somewhere up in here?
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
HELL NO, that is ENTIRELY WRONG...if anything it should be the other way around, with every bit of James Brown's classification as a funk artist put through a filter of the NOLA artists who inspired him to do anything beyond soul ballads.
Little Richard had to come to New Orleans to fully wrap his head around what it meant to be funky. And James Brown did the same shit...he just took it back to Georgia before recording it. Point being, funk was fully alive and kicking in NOLA long before outsiders came in and put their own minor spins on it.
however, I think when folks say "funk music" they are speaking of it in a pop-music context...R&B and Soul is a music geared for mass consumption...like it or not, although the roots of funk certainly lie in the NOLA second line tradition..it did take folks like JB and Dyke and the Blazers to take this innovation from 32 minute parade jams and make 2 minute pop songs out of it to have appeal to a broader audience...
I agree that NOLA doesn't get the respect it deserves but if we're gonna take it there then there's an even better argument that Havana is the proto-proto-funk city since it the poly-rhythm that emerges from New Orleans music traces back to the syncopation of the Cuban clave. (Which would then lead us back to...the Kongo region of Africa)
Perhaps, but that argument deprives Harvey of discussing any his four babies: NO, Haiti, Project Blowed, and the Reptiles.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
Nope - "Big Chief" is proto-funk because with that track, I can hear it coming but it ain't quite there.
But with "Hook & Sling" or "Sophisticated Cissy" (both from '69), you knew the funk train had definitely arrived.Note that my two examples were both New Orleans records...[/b]
Wait a minute, let me back up the record to something you said earlier:
Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
YOU'RE the one that keeps bringing up JB, not me. I ain't the one taking away NOLA's funk cred! And for the record, I'd put "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" in the proto-funk category along with "Big Chief."
Ya see, "Papa's Brand New Bag" told ya funk was COMING. "Cold Sweat" said FUNK IS HERE.
Or, in other words: "Big Chief" - funk is coming "Hook & Sling" - funk is here
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Well, you seem to be exactly on page with those I take exception with. How you conclude that Big Chief is only indicative of "funk is coming", I'll never know. It's got the drums, it's got the bassline, it's got the horns...and IMO it is the most pure form of what funk is that has ever been recorded. All James Brown or anybody after that ever did up to Sly Stone was dress it up a bit. And like I said, ask an Eddie Bo or a Neville and they will tell you the same. But for some odd reason that I certainly can't identify, that doesn't matter to anyone who has already bought anything thing at all into the idea of James Brown as the landmark originator of funk.
And Batmon, the Dixie Cups were there...translating second line traditions to a pop format.
O-Dub, you need to define important and funk. I say Aretha, for the reasons I said. If those are not the criteria you are looking for, cool.
I made the argument, in the past, that Cold Sweat was the first funk tune. Based on the unrelenting one chord groove.
Today I am all about saying amen to Harvey Canal.
Most of the funk we are talking about here are fast soul songs with a rock beat and poping bass that have little to do with Cold Sweat, or Big Chief.
Is the question, which woman had the most best funk 45s?
I find that "funk 45" is yet another genre different from what was called funk in the past.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I agree that NOLA doesn't get the respect it deserves but if we're gonna take it there then there's an even better argument that Havana is the proto-proto-funk city since it the poly-rhythm that emerges from New Orleans music traces back to the syncopation of the Cuban clave. (Which would then lead us back to...the Kongo region of Africa)
That's some b.s. and you know it. Second-lining wasn't/isn't just the rhythm alone. It's the basslines, it's the horns, it's the complete funk package. And mind you, marching bands provided what constituted pop music for a long time in this country...up until New Orleans gave us jazz. So do consider that those Afro-Cuban rhythms that informed NOLA music were put into a pop format as far back as the late 19th Century.
And Batmon, the Dixie Cups were there...translating second line traditions to a pop format.
"Iko Iko" is the only track I've heard by the Dixie Cups that sounds blatantly like New Orleans. With everything else, including "Chapel Of Love", the NOLA thing is real subtle. They could have been from anywhere.
I love NOLA music too, but I ain't deaf - to call the Dixie Cups funk is stretching it. As far as "Big Chief," I hear the innovations, but it still comes out of the wash sounding like any R&B dance record of the early part of the sixties.
Don't go getting carried away with definitions. I wouldn't take away from the originators, but let's face it...first there's Proto-Funk and then there's Funk As We Know It. I once had a similar discussion with some guy who thought that Sam & Dave's "Soul Man" was a genuine funk record (hell yes I disagreed).
I agree that NOLA doesn't get the respect it deserves but if we're gonna take it there then there's an even better argument that Havana is the proto-proto-funk city since it the poly-rhythm that emerges from New Orleans music traces back to the syncopation of the Cuban clave. (Which would then lead us back to...the Kongo region of Africa)
Perhaps, but that argument deprives Harvey of discussing any his four babies: NO, Haiti, Project Blowed, and the Reptiles.
I believe this would be an opportune time for Harvey to remind us of that previously-offered definition of funk that involves changing diapers, knowing where to hunt for shrooms, knowing the number of the girl down the road and biting the heads off of crawfish.
Comments
'Splain please!
I would be loving this if it were to happen. Those cuts would be
As for the topic at hand, I would probably say Lyn Collins, but failing that...I might give a nod to Carol Kaye on some "you might not know who she is, but you definitely know her work," Funk Bros.-in-Shadows of Motown steez.
That'd be like naming Louis Jordan and Isaac Hayes as the most influential old-school rappers. You could trace it BACK to them, they might be ancestors, they might be precursors, whatever...but you couldn't call them rap as we know it.
As much as I respect Laser Wolf's opinion (and I'm always checking for his posts), Aretha did indeed (help) create it, shape it, and influence it...but she ain't IT. At least not to me.
IMO any definition of funk that does not recognize New Orleans as the birthplace of funk is missing the boat entirely. And according to average Joe nowadays Professor's Longhair's Big Chief isn't "funk". Smokey Johnson's It Ain't My Fault isn't funk. And so on. People have clearly decided that James Brown is where funk officially began (as its own genre, maybe)...but in leaning on that way of thinking all too much, most of the proto-funk stuff gets left out of the category and thus so does the true way that funk was formulated as its own genre.
I also don't like how later versions of funk get subordinated as much as they do in favor of the mid-to-late-60's, gutbucket 45 blueprint for funk.
The walls put up by dudes nowadays in their efforts to definitively categorize music are simply far too tall and expansive to accurately portray all that is funk and why.
I can think of some that WERE released. Try "Funkier Than A Mosquito's Tweeter" for starters.
I thought we were talking about females. you're just going off on a tangent now.
Well, see, that's where you get tripped up - including the "proto-funk" with just plain funk. I think the "proto" stuff deserves its' own wing, 'cause that can confuse somebody who is looking for funk straight up. I think the Louis Jordan/rap metaphor I used in my last couple of posts kinda explains that.
I'm shocked. No love for your soulstrut namesake?
besides the criteria for most important funk singer seems a little vague. Are we talking about funk back in its respective day or are you looking back it with a view on how its considered today?
Spanky Wilsons "Light My Fire" and "Sunshine of your love" are 2 very well loved funk tunes by todays fans.
This isn't a laundry list of "female artists whose funk songs you enjoyed."
I'm talking about Numero Uno. Spanky isn't remotely in that convo.
i was just namedropping her yesterday over in the "westbound/eastbound" thread. not funky, but a totally underrated performer (she's still around, BTW)
no doubt.
But ill co-sign on cats disregarding Funk in the early 80's till now.
The N.O. Funk Origins thing is another thread.
well, one of them had an album on Motown (as "Rose Banks"), but I couldn't tell you if it was funk or not
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Big Chief always presents the best example here. If it's not funk straight up, then what is it?
Also, you can't swipe a solid and long-standing foundation of drums and basslines as played by NOLA marching bands...replace the tuba with a bass guitar and then declare that you've created a whole new genre.
The Professor Longhair's and Smokey Johnson's and Dave Bartholomew's openly considered their musics as extensions of NOLA second line traditions...but for some reason James Brown, who really only developed renditions of those same traditions into new areas, can't.
That whole type of exclusionary treatment when it comes to funk is short-sighted and ultimately wrong.
You made the call, bro...proto-funk.
along these lines, I have considered Yvonne Fair "Say yeah yeah" to be the first funk track...then again its the '63 Famous Flames backing her...back to the JB factor...but an important female funk artist in that respect...
How many signature songs by Millie are str8 Funk vs Chaka's signature songs?
See, SCREW THAT. Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
HELL NO, that is ENTIRELY WRONG...if anything it should be the other way around, with every bit of James Brown's classification as a funk artist put through a filter of the NOLA artists who inspired him to do anything beyond soul ballads.
Little Richard had to come to New Orleans to fully wrap his head around what it meant to be funky. And James Brown did the same shit...he just took it back to Georgia before recording it. Point being, funk was fully alive and kicking in NOLA long before outsiders came in and put their own minor spins on it.
yeah your right, Spanky ain't the top of the heap, but I think if the perspective you are coming from is people now looking back on the funk genre you have to throw in those that get a lot of respect in funk clubs/ Funk conversations
Personally I think that Marva Whitney is the top of the heap. 2 solid LP's with lots of funk, a rep as one of the funkiest sista's in James Browns camp and a favorite on dance floors.
I think you'd be more likely to hear marva at a funk club than you would Chaka Khan
What females were there?
Nope - "Big Chief" is proto-funk because with that track, I can hear it coming but it ain't quite there.
But with "Hook & Sling" or "Sophisticated Cissy" (both from '69), you knew the funk train had definitely arrived. Note that my two examples were both New Orleans records...[/b]
Wait a minute, let me back up the record to something you said earlier:
Big Chief is only funk as much as it reflects what was to come from James Brown???
YOU'RE the one that keeps bringing up JB, not me. I ain't the one taking away NOLA's funk cred! And for the record, I'd put "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" in the proto-funk category along with "Big Chief."
Ya see, "Papa's Brand New Bag" told ya funk was COMING. "Cold Sweat" said FUNK IS HERE.
Or, in other words:
"Big Chief" - funk is coming
"Hook & Sling" - funk is here
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. And no, Fats Domino's "Blueberry Hill" AIN'T funk! (((grin)))
Say, weren't we s'posed to be talking about funky females somewhere up in here?
however, I think when folks say "funk music" they are speaking of it in a pop-music context...R&B and Soul is a music geared for mass consumption...like it or not, although the roots of funk certainly lie in the NOLA second line tradition..it did take folks like JB and Dyke and the Blazers to take this innovation from 32 minute parade jams and make 2 minute pop songs out of it to have appeal to a broader audience...
Perhaps, but that argument deprives Harvey of discussing any his four babies: NO, Haiti, Project Blowed, and the Reptiles.
YOU'RE the one that keeps bringing up JB, not me. I ain't the one taking away NOLA's funk cred! And for the record, I'd put "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" in the proto-funk category along with "Big Chief."
Ya see, "Papa's Brand New Bag" told ya funk was COMING. "Cold Sweat" said FUNK IS HERE.
Or, in other words:
"Big Chief" - funk is coming
"Hook & Sling" - funk is here
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Well, you seem to be exactly on page with those I take exception with. How you conclude that Big Chief is only indicative of "funk is coming", I'll never know. It's got the drums, it's got the bassline, it's got the horns...and IMO it is the most pure form of what funk is that has ever been recorded. All James Brown or anybody after that ever did up to Sly Stone was dress it up a bit. And like I said, ask an Eddie Bo or a Neville and they will tell you the same. But for some odd reason that I certainly can't identify, that doesn't matter to anyone who has already bought anything thing at all into the idea of James Brown as the landmark originator of funk.
And Batmon, the Dixie Cups were there...translating second line traditions to a pop format.
I made the argument, in the past, that Cold Sweat was the first funk tune. Based on the unrelenting one chord groove.
Today I am all about saying amen to Harvey Canal.
Most of the funk we are talking about here are fast soul songs with a rock beat and poping bass that have little to do with Cold Sweat, or Big Chief.
Is the question, which woman had the most best funk 45s?
I find that "funk 45" is yet another genre different from what was called funk in the past.
That's some b.s. and you know it. Second-lining wasn't/isn't just the rhythm alone. It's the basslines, it's the horns, it's the complete funk package. And mind you, marching bands provided what constituted pop music for a long time in this country...up until New Orleans gave us jazz. So do consider that those Afro-Cuban rhythms that informed NOLA music were put into a pop format as far back as the late 19th Century.
"Iko Iko" is the only track I've heard by the Dixie Cups that sounds blatantly like New Orleans. With everything else, including "Chapel Of Love", the NOLA thing is real subtle. They could have been from anywhere.
I love NOLA music too, but I ain't deaf - to call the Dixie Cups funk is stretching it. As far as "Big Chief," I hear the innovations, but it still comes out of the wash sounding like any R&B dance record of the early part of the sixties.
Don't go getting carried away with definitions. I wouldn't take away from the originators, but let's face it...first there's Proto-Funk and then there's Funk As We Know It. I once had a similar discussion with some guy who thought that Sam & Dave's "Soul Man" was a genuine funk record (hell yes I disagreed).
I believe this would be an opportune time for Harvey to remind us of that previously-offered definition of funk that involves changing diapers, knowing where to hunt for shrooms, knowing the number of the girl down the road and biting the heads off of crawfish.