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Ask Pickwick: Funk's most important female?

mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
edited April 2008 in Strut Central
Pickwick,A colleague of mine was working on a project and asked me who I thought was the most important woman in funk. I had to pause for a moment because while there have been a lot of prominent women in funk, it's harder to argue who's been *important* given that so few of them had meaningful solo careers.Not surprisingly, I argued on the behalf of Betty Davis even she's probably relatively obscure in comparison to, say, Lyn Collins or Vicki Anderson. However, that's also looking at it from today's perspective whereas, it might be during the '70s, there was a different awareness of women in the funk realm. What names would come to your mind?
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  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    As far as the most important, Lyn Collins comes to mind simply because she had hit singles and was heard by more people. Betty Davis, by comparison, was too much of a cult heroine - you heard ABOUT her 'cause she was always featured in music mags, but she wasn't exactly setting the radio airwaves on fire. So I'd give it to Lyn. My opinion.

    Coming close but not quite there:
    Chaka Khan (with Rufus)
    LaBelle (just as much soul and rock as funk)
    Jayne Kennedy (with Mother's Finest)
    Marva Whitney (yeah, she sang with JB and had a few hits, but doesn't seem to get the retrospect respect that Lyn gets)
    Vicki Anderson (seems like only cratediggers like us know who she is)
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    Although not strictly funk, Millie Jackson and
    to some extent Betty Wright were very successful
    and could bring the funk when called upon.

    Betty Harris needs a nod on the New Orleans side.
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    And of course, Tina Turner. Again, not strictly funk but
    a very popular artist who could and would do funk tracks.
  • kalakala 3,362 Posts
    aretha
  • bassiebassie 11,710 Posts
    Tina Turner

    Yes.


    aretha

    influence? musically? both?

    What are some funk songs Aretha did?


    Are we saying important to the genre or to the listeners?
    I would say Millie Jackson - her longevity makes up for lack of fame and even if she isn't a household name - are any female funk singers? - her influence on the sound is important. Betty Davis, too.
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    I think this was supposed to be a PM between Odub and Pickwick
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    As much as i ride for Millie Jackson, her Funk output is just a section of her catalog. She was doin country,straight Southern Soul,Modern Soul,Comtemporary R&B,and even some "Rap". And some of that stuff she made that was Funky Id call Funky Soul vs Straight Funk.

    Chaka Khan is my pick.

    Honorable mention to the sisters in The Family Stone even if they didnt have solo projects.
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    what are the criteria for "most important"? If it is going on sales/popularity I would say Betty Wright "Clean up woman" or Jean Knight "Mr. Big Stuff" were the biggest selling female funk tracks of all time...
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Bigger than Tell Me Somethin' Good by Rufus?
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    "Importance" is vague, I know. There's a longer backstory here but not worth getting into. I think the gist of it would be finding a female artist who managed to be popular AND influential. That's why I don't think Jean Knight can qualify - one-hit wonder for the most part.

    I like Lyn Collins here but to me, you don't get to Lyn without starting with Vicki so the question of influence comes up. The other problem is that my colleague can't really use any JB-diva (again, long story, don't worry about it).

    Chaka Khan isn't a bad option in this race either.
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    Bigger than Tell Me Somethin' Good by Rufus?

    possibly...."Mr. Big Stuff" outsold "Dock of the Bay", so I think its sales are pretty hefty...but I understand how she is just a one hit wonder and not a possible candidate...
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I'm assuming Aretha was a joke entry. Luh that girl but a funk artist? No.
  • djdazedjdaze 3,099 Posts
    I'd say Lyn with Chaka as a CLOSE second, although I don't see why Aretha wouldn't be a strong contender even though she wasn't necessarily IN funk, she influenced most of those that were, Chaka especially. But, that's kind of like saying certain blues musicians were the most important figures in rock.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I'm not saying Aretha has nothing to do with funk but she wasn't a funk artist.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Aretha Franlikn isnt Funk's Most important female.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    I am trying to think of funk females who were more than a vocalist in front of a male band, singing songs written by men, given to them by men who produced them.

    Betty Davis
    Betty Wright
    Millie Jackson
    ^ Have all been mentioned.

    Sara Dash

    The Family Stone sisters played instruments
    Carol Kaye
    Bobbie Humphrey
    Patricia Rushen

    Denise LaSalle (Has she ever been mentioned on soulstrut? I think she is great. Of course she is southern soul 100%, not funk)

    I will defend Aretha. Check out Soulville on Columbia. She wrote, produced and played the piano. John Hammond said she rejected the jazz drummers he tried to team her with and always wanted a rock drummer. She has to be funk's #1 most influential woman.
  • djdazedjdaze 3,099 Posts
    no I know...just thinking out loud so to speak. Like I said I'd nominate Lyn with Chaka as a CLOSE second. Rufus was one of the biggest funk groups of the 70's that's hard to fuck with. But when I think of funk music for some reason Lyn pops in to my mind immediately.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    As time passes more folks find out about Betty Davis. Its hard to factor such an underground artist into the landscape, but she did make st8 Funk albums as oppossed to some the other names mentioned. Her ballads output was kept to a real minimum.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    If all you want is the woman with the most and biggest funk hits, go to Joel Whitburn and do the math.

    If you want the woman who was most important to funk; creating it, shaping it, influencing those who sang it, then Aretha has to be at the top of your list.

    If you want the woman with the best, funkiest, hits, Lyn Collins.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    If you want the woman who was most important to funk; creating it, shaping it, influencing those who sang it, then Aretha has to be at the top of your list.

    Do u consider Rock Steady a Funk song?
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    "creating it, shaping it"

    Ok - you'll have to explain this here. I'd like to think I'm pretty familiar with her catalog on both Columbia and Atlantic and I just don't hear this.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    If you want the woman who was most important to funk; creating it, shaping it, influencing those who sang it, then Aretha has to be at the top of your list.

    Do u consider Rock Steady a Funk song?

    I consider Soulville a funk song, about 10 years before Rock Steady. More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing.

    Old timers remember I used to rail against categories. Funk, soul, r&b, blues, jazz, it's all music to me. When I opened my shop I didn't have any categories, just alphabetical. People freaked out and walked out, so I changed it.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    If you want the woman who was most important to funk; creating it, shaping it, influencing those who sang it, then Aretha has to be at the top of your list.

    Do u consider Rock Steady a Funk song?

    I consider Soulville a funk song, about 10 years before Rock Steady. More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing.

    Old timers remember I used to rail against categories. Funk, soul, r&b, blues, jazz, it's all music to me. When I opened my shop I didn't have any categories, just alphabetical. People freaked out and walked out, so I changed it.



    GOSPEL
  • Strider79itStrider79it 1,176 Posts
    Funk, soul, r&b, blues, jazz, it's all music to me.


    and on the funky aretha
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    "More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "

    I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts

    Coming close but not quite there:
    Chaka Khan (with Rufus)
    LaBelle (just as much soul and rock as funk)
    Jayne Joyce Kennedy (with Mother's Finest)
    Marva Whitney (yeah, she sang with JB and had a few hits, but doesn't seem to get the retrospect respect that Lyn gets)
    Vicki Anderson (seems like only cratediggers like us know who she is)

    You are a music encyclopedia, so correcting you is like correcting the teacher, you don't know what will happen afterwards, but it's awesome to do. Aretha is not funk. I immediately thought of Chaka Khan, but is she the most important? Or the most famous? Tough call.
  • bassiebassie 11,710 Posts
    I don't want to sound like I don't have love for Chaka Khan, but I can't see her as being more important than Jackson, in influence and shaping the sound, seeing as she started putting out records at least four or five years after Jackson.

    Like Millie, Chaka also tried other genres - jazz, rap, house, pop - so I wouldn't really use that as a criteria to take anyone out of the running. I mean chances are you're going to explore other sounds when you're putting as many records as Jackson and Kahn (and Franklin) have and for as long. And the gospel/soul/r&b/funk crossover is natural and inevitable.

    I hesitate to make the most famous equal to most important; sometimes the student outshines the teacher, but s/he was still the pupil.
  • kalakala 3,362 Posts

    for full shred value I vote betty harris

    but most folks know lynn collins better because of jb

    and people not "in the know" would recognize areatha quicker than lynn
    but technically aretha is the queen of soul

    it would be cool of they found unreleased tina turner funk tracks from "the era"as heavy as bold soul sister
  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    "More important, I consider Aretha funky, no matter what she is singing. "

    I can respect that but what you're suggesting denies funk its own trajectory and identity. It's like when people argue that hip-hop is just rock n' roll in a new form...I can understand the argument being made and I don't mean to get all semantic but personally, I think genres serve a purpose besides helping segment the consumer base.

    IMO the current definition of "funk" that people nowadays seem to be confidently rolling with excludes about 49% of what I would call funk from the equation.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Rose Stewart (Stone) and Cynthia Robinson from Sly & the Family Stone - I knew I was missing somebody, but since they just seemed to be side players next to Sly, I'd have to confine them to "honorable mention" status.

    In the back of my mind I'm wanting to say Maxayn from the group of the same name, but they weren't popular enough, despite three major label albums.

    I'll have to echo the rest - Aretha is straight soul. I realize the lines blur sometimes, but I'm not letting that cloud my judgement. She's recorded the odd track that could be taken for funk ("Rock Steady"), but she's no more a funkateer than Louis Jordan was a rapper. Same with Millie Jackson, Betty Wright, or Betty Harris - they may have dabbled in the funk for a single or two, may have done a song that would work well in a funk set, but as full-on funksters, I can't feature that.

    I immediately thought of Chaka Khan, but is she the most important? Or the most famous? Tough call.

    I'd say that if you forgot her solo career and just focused on the years with Rufus, then she'd definitely make sense. Seeing photos of Chaka from the 1973-75 era, imagewise she looks like a G-rated Betty Davis. I'd say the same sorta applies to the sound. Khan wasn't a Davis knockoff, more like a contemporary, but if Davis ever found a way to get on the radio and toned down her eccentric streak, she'd probably sound like Chaka with Rufus.
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