If you re looking for decency and virtue in organized religion it's the next door to the left of Rome.
Ammon Hennacy Anarchist Christians Catholic Worker Movement IWWW/Wobblies Peter Maurin Emanuel Mounier Dorothy Day Personalism
Sorry for being brief, I wrote more but my form became invalid. When my life had less funerals I was real down on organized religion. When I was about 20 though I was in Perth Amboy and this lady couldn't windex a streak from her window that looked like the Virgin Mary. It was just like that South Park episode with the bleeding statue, people came from all over...even Bababooey from Howard Stern came to poke fun. But through the traffic and hysteria I started to see another kind of beauty in the whole situation whereas I typically would have thought "look at all these sheep!" "BAAA!" "BAAA!" I seen a new kind of miracle.
My mother went to Catholic school in the late 50s and 60s and had that terrorized mentality. When her parents were growing up in New England though the KKK would burn crosses on their peoples tenement for being Catholic and all kinds of horrific shit happened to their community. Catholics were always a political threat and seen as foreign intervention in a lot of parts of the world because the church kept them loyal and uninformed as humble workers. I think outside the business of defending someones right to express themselves religion has no place in politics.
My mother though was raised to become more assimilate and not have to endure any of that "Speak white" shit that was going on for my Grandparents, she never really grasped her language and regretted it later in life. I will always say I'm Catholic because of all that shit, I couldn't think of declaring something else. My mother got a divorce and the Catholic church requires money to be let back in (annullment) so she said fuck it and got down with the Zen and Joseph Campbells 'Power of Myth'----- I'm sure I'm not the only kid with a mom like that in the 80s!
But after that experience with the "Miracle" I realized I knew more inspirational figures from other world religions than from my own and discovered the historical figures listed. Especially Personalism on the french tip, Emmanuel Mounier (Personalist Manifesto)and his school of philosophy influenced the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr. and Peter Maurin. Maurin translated the Personalist Manifesto stateside which was an influential tome in keeping up the spirits of Catholic and Franco-american communities in America as well.
Dorothy Day is such an important figure too, a for real Christian feminist. She's elected into Sainthood by the will of the people, despite not being recognized by the Vatican.
is there any good christian rock? serious question.
Some of my fave LP's from the 70's are Christian.....
Check out these if you can...
Azitis Fraction Rainbow Promise Agape Morley Grey
thanks. all the Christian stuff on the radio seems pretty softbatch. I will try these.
Outside Gospel the only thing I could tolerate out of the "jesus music" era is anything Phil Keaggy. Glass Harp, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and any of his acoustic stuff after the 70s, like Brushstrokes and wind in wheat or whatever. He's the type of Christian performer whos playing is just plain spiritual. Not the christian radio rock crap hes done from the 80s on though, I think you gotta drink that kool aid to be down with that shit.
is there anyone here who acknowledges Christ as their savior?
Christ is my savior. I see his sacrifice as the ultimate act of a human being: Willing to give your life for the good of humanity.
I was a hardcore atheist for six years, and really had to reconstruct my spirituality, which was wrongly learned in the first place. When I first renounced God, I thought I wouldn't wake up the next morning! Now that I've reconstructed it all, I don't take the Bible very literally like I used to. I think it is HIGHLY metaphorical and symbolic.
I don't think people need God to give their life a purpose. I don't think beliefs should be forced on people. Ever. I don't think people need to believe in God to be ethical and good.
I can't explain where we come from. Either way you look at it, how does something come from nothing, whether 'nothing' is God or just matter? That question bugs me, but not as much as the "where are we going after this?" Is this it? Possibly, but what do you have to lose by believing in Heaven? I suppose it's selfish to not want to give up this consciousness, but the bonds of family and friends and the love I have for them is too strong to want to give up after death. The thought of never seeing my mother after she dies saddens me like nothing else, and I'm sure the thought of never seeing the love of my life after death will do the same.
The best question someone ever asked me with regard to beliefs was "What is it doing for you?" For me, Christianity does the most.
Jesus' message was one of love and justice, forgiveness and repentance, which some find comfort in and many others find offensive.
Please to name those against love, justice and forgiveness?
right...in theory. what i think is key is that you left out repentance, without which there is no forgiveness (according to jesus). the idea of repentance is not palatable to a lot of folks. justice can also be offensive, if you view it in terms of what we all deserve as liars, gluttons, selfish and covetous people next to a holy God.
I'm just saying though - people don't have a real problem with most of Jesus' ideals. It's the dogma + theocracy + institutions that are troubling.
Anti-religion is not anti-ethics.
People are generally comfortable with the ideals of Jesus' teachings once they are abstracted from the context. Within context, Jesus was teaching both the love and wrath of holy and personal God that demands accountability from everyone regarding their obedience/disobedience to his law. Its the truth behind the ideals that can be offensive to a lot of people.
You've got to take into account that folks that haven't grown up with the nuances of Deuteronomical laws (esp. their relationship to suzerains and suzerainty treaties), substitutionary atonement, fulfillment of prophesy, and an overriding concept of a sin nature are going to have a hard time grasping your definition of forgiveness as being little other than something your parents made you ask for after you hit your little brother in the head with a Wiffle-Ball bat.
That, plus your definition of Truth and right and wrong being wholly incumbent upon a literal reading (demomination aside) of the Bible.
I'm just saying though - people don't have a real problem with most of Jesus' ideals. It's the dogma + theocracy + institutions that are troubling.
Anti-religion is not anti-ethics. People are generally comfortable with the ideals of Jesus' teachings once they are abstracted from the context. Within context, Jesus was teaching both the love and wrath of holy and personal God that demands accountability from everyone regarding their obedience/disobedience to his law. Its the truth behind the ideals that can be offensive to a lot of people. You've got to take into account that folks that haven't grown up with the nuances of Deuteronomical laws (esp. their relationship to suzerains and suzerainty treaties), substitutionary atonement, fulfillment of prophesy, and an overriding concept of a sin nature are going to have a hard time grasping your definition of forgiveness as being little other than something your parents made you ask for after you hit your little brother in the head with a Wiffle-Ball bat.
That, plus your definition of Truth and right and wrong being wholly incumbent upon a literal reading (demomination aside) of the Bible. With all the pseudo fiefdoms people got in America and peoples concepts of sin and justifications evolving I think people still get down together and agree upon the same shit. Amidst the takeover of these Abrahamic religions the same mysteries never lapsed in an attempt to be understood felt or used by people before them. I've never really read much of the New Testament and have read considerably more elsewhere but from living in America I can definitely feel the Judeo Christian and yes, though many are drawing the line now Muslim, all Abrahamic faiths get down on the same shit Jesus represents in comparison to my experience with my friends who've grown up in Communist countries. For the West Jesus represents this chest-thumping kind of spirit, the philosophy of Christ is more of a declaration than a meditation.
No matter how faithless or faith different you could be raised compartmentalizing your definition of sin doesn't change the popular view thats around you wherever you're going to be. The most unique phenomena I've encountered is from working with Autistic kids. My friends from Communist countries would bring it to my attention that their Eastern and I guess socialist concept of faith allowed room for them to participate in the focus of Gods landscape. For instance, children outside Judeo Christian countries born with disabilities would be sacrificed their burden of life and the burden on the family that would have to feed them. I actually spoke to someone who's very brother was misery killed in Russia in this fashion and he spoke to me as if "Judeo Christian" countries didn't understand that he was STILL a Christian and could appreciate the concept his society applied on his younger brother. I know this is a big difference in most Western concepts of Christ where taking a hand in such an understanding of Gods work is considered the biggest modern day fuck up and a sign of the apocalypse and shit, ala abortion, etc.
Personalism is always linked with socialism. I never really could decide how I felt about this East/West situation. The children I worked with were a blessing to be around but at the same time I'm not entirely ignorant to the fact that putting people on life support and all kinds of shit to evade death isn't Gods will either and I think is the very phenomena that separates a redefinition of Judeo Christian and Abrahamic values with the evolutions of the modern day. This was the only instance where I stepped back and thought wow, the values whatever they may be of the people around you HAD molded your outlook in some way. I just think people say shit like "Youre afraid of the Truth" and thump on their chest for the Lord and get psyched in a "these colors don't run" type of way talking about, His Way and Path. All with capitals ha and that is the type of Truth you speak of that some people are never going to swallow. What about that dude Tony Dollar on tv? And the Evangelical guys who are down with having like 8 Bentley's all in the name of the Lord? THAT is another evolution and compartmentalization of Prophecy or what?!?! I think most of that shit from both sides wether you a heathen or a hysteric is an epidemic of a fucking cracked out society!!!!
I had to look up suzerain, I never heard that before.
My father is an ordined minister. Before going off to my Christian Grammar School, I was swallowing suzerains and TULIPs along with my breakfast oatmeal.
but what do you have to lose by believing in Heaven?
The issue isn't what you have to lose by believing in Heaven but rather, what conditions come with that belief, at least in terms of what certain religions mandate as requirements to enter the kingdom.
One of my main issues with Christianity are the evangelical sects (my Taiwanese brethren know what the fuck I'm talking about) that I grew up around and the general idea that belief - in a dogmatic sense - is necessary to receive salvation from damnation. I used to talk about this with my college roommate, who was Jewish, and he never got it either: it seemed like Christianity was basically evangelizing through spiritual extortion compared to Judaism, which, despite sharing similar theological roots, doesn't threaten hell to the non-believers (I might be mistaken about this but I'm assuming there's no shortage of folks around here to correct me).
In any case, the argument that Hitchens and the other New Atheists would make is that Heaven is merely part of the mass delusion that religion promises and the standard retort would be, "how is Heaven any different from believing in Olympus or Valhalla?" Those wacky atheists, always playing the pagan card...
but what do you have to lose by believing in Heaven?
The issue isn't what you have to lose by believing in Heaven but rather, what conditions come with that belief, at least in terms of what certain religions mandate as requirements to enter the kingdom.
Well, obviously, the conditions vary, otherwise all Christians would be Roman Catholics. So the question remains, "What do you have to lose," considering there's a condition for everyone who is open to believing. Furthermore, it is a matter of faith. If you believe that you can go to Heaven simply by doing such-and-such, that is your belief, however self-serving it could be. I suppose this cuts to the core of organized religion vs. personal religion.
In any case, the argument that Hitchens and the other New Atheists would make is that Heaven is merely part of the mass delusion that religion promises and the standard retort would be, "how is Heaven any different from believing in Olympus or Valhalla?" Those wacky atheists, always playing the pagan card...
And these guys don't understand and never will understand that it has everything to do with "belief" and not "logic".
TULIP is an acrostic for the Five Tenets of Calvinism. Limited Atonement is the most controversial of the five points, leading some Calvinists who deny it to refer to their ideology as Four-Point Calvinism. This acrostic was really the work of John Calvin's followers as a response to their doctrinal rivals, the Arminians.
Wow - it's a tough one. I believe Jesus was pretty much just the 'ultimate man' in the sense that all he did was for the right reasons, selflessly. You know, the sort of guy who'd give you his last dollar for the busride home. I don't really believe in any form of organised religion. I like the idea that you can be aware and selfless in your life without having to subscribe to a set of rules - I mean, if they were true and just, they're almost inate aren't they? I also can't comprehend the view that if someone is gay they're a sinner - it turns the idea of being 'good' into a sport with guidelines and rules.
I was raised Lutheran and went to church/Sunday school every so often. As I got older and saw the reality of mankind it definitely made me re-think my stance on religion.
I don't subscribe to organized religion, but I understand some people need that in their lives and I respect that (there would probably be a lot less problems if we all did). I believe it's all different paths leading to the same place so do what works for you.
I completely believe in God, but I don't believe he (or she) put us here to burn in hell. What kind of God says "I Love you unconditionally" and then threatens you with eternal damnation? I just don't buy it. I believe it's become a tool to control people through fear. I think we're here to grow and learn spiritually and we will continue to live well beyond this life in some form or another.
even atheists seem to think jesus existed. i don't really get that. dude was a character in stories...there's plenty of evidence that he never existed as a person
even atheists seem to think jesus existed. i don't really get that. dude was a character in stories...there's plenty of evidence that he never existed as a person
even atheists seem to think jesus existed. i don't really get that. dude was a character in stories...there's plenty of evidence that he never existed as a person
i was raised roman catholic, but am agnostic now. I still though do somewhat believe he existed as a person, but was not the divine being he claimed to be. I think he was a guy in that era that saw a lot of real fucked up shit going down and decided to use the word of a "higher power" to gain peoples faith/fear to fix there wickedness. Which is completely cool with me as it did make people unify and start to curb the error of there ways.
I myself just cannot see us transcending to heaven/hell after death. Wishful thinking but it just doesnt make logical/scientific sense for this to happen. Until anyone can prove it otherwise i will always remain a skeptic. Faith is a good thing to have and if it inspires you then more power to you. I just think you need to have faith in yourself and understand that your life is precious so make the best of it while your here. And also I think a lot of eastern religion is on point with the aspects of karma,energy, chakras, etc... which they are starting to gain a little insight through quantum physics . Just the whole deity thing throws me off in any religion.
And also I think a lot of eastern religion is on point with the aspects of karma,energy, chakras, etc... which they are starting to gain a little insight through quantum physics.
Statements like this can be really misleading to people who don't know any physics. Quantum physics can just be seen as a metaphor for yin & yang. Basically, really small particles like electrons aren't really in one place or another: if you try to measure where they are, there is one probability they will be in one particular place, and another probability they will be in another, and the way this fits into theory is that they are in "superposition". Kind of in both places, but not really either place. Another instance of this is the particle-wave theory of light: light particles have properties of particles and waves, but they are not really either thing, and they are kind of both. All it is is a metaphor for yin & yang in that everything has some "good" and some "bad" in it, but is not really either. I would not say that quantum physics proves or gives insight into any kind of religion at all, it can just be seen as a physical parallel. I don't know, maybe that gives insight, I just think that too many people take that statement too far and all of a sudden think they've proven something.
Comments
Sorry for being brief, I wrote more but my form became invalid. When my life had less funerals I was real down on organized religion. When I was about 20 though I was in Perth Amboy and this lady couldn't windex a streak from her window that looked like the Virgin Mary. It was just like that South Park episode with the bleeding statue, people came from all over...even Bababooey from Howard Stern came to poke fun. But through the traffic and hysteria I started to see another kind of beauty in the whole situation whereas I typically would have thought "look at all these sheep!" "BAAA!" "BAAA!" I seen a new kind of miracle.
My mother went to Catholic school in the late 50s and 60s and had that terrorized mentality. When her parents were growing up in New England though the KKK would burn crosses on their peoples tenement for being Catholic and all kinds of horrific shit happened to their community. Catholics were always a political threat and seen as foreign intervention in a lot of parts of the world because the church kept them loyal and uninformed as humble workers. I think outside the business of defending someones right to express themselves religion has no place in politics.
My mother though was raised to become more assimilate and not have to endure any of that "Speak white" shit that was going on for my Grandparents, she never really grasped her language and regretted it later in life. I will always say I'm Catholic because of all that shit, I couldn't think of declaring something else. My mother got a divorce and the Catholic church requires money to be let back in (annullment) so she said fuck it and got down with the Zen and Joseph Campbells 'Power of Myth'----- I'm sure I'm not the only kid with a mom like that in the 80s!
But after that experience with the "Miracle" I realized I knew more inspirational figures from other world religions than from my own and discovered the historical figures listed. Especially Personalism on the french tip, Emmanuel Mounier (Personalist Manifesto)and his school of philosophy influenced the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr. and Peter Maurin. Maurin translated the Personalist Manifesto stateside which was an influential tome in keeping up the spirits of Catholic and Franco-american communities in America as well.
Dorothy Day is such an important figure too, a for real Christian feminist. She's elected into Sainthood by the will of the people, despite not being recognized by the Vatican.
Outside Gospel the only thing I could tolerate out of the "jesus music" era is anything Phil Keaggy. Glass Harp, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and any of his acoustic stuff after the 70s, like Brushstrokes and wind in wheat or whatever. He's the type of Christian performer whos playing is just plain spiritual. Not the christian radio rock crap hes done from the 80s on though, I think you gotta drink that kool aid to be down with that shit.
Christ is my savior. I see his sacrifice as the ultimate act of a human being: Willing to give your life for the good of humanity.
I was a hardcore atheist for six years, and really had to reconstruct my spirituality, which was wrongly learned in the first place. When I first renounced God, I thought I wouldn't wake up the next morning! Now that I've reconstructed it all, I don't take the Bible very literally like I used to. I think it is HIGHLY metaphorical and symbolic.
I don't think people need God to give their life a purpose.
I don't think beliefs should be forced on people. Ever.
I don't think people need to believe in God to be ethical and good.
I can't explain where we come from. Either way you look at it, how does something come from nothing, whether 'nothing' is God or just matter? That question bugs me, but not as much as the "where are we going after this?" Is this it? Possibly, but what do you have to lose by believing in Heaven? I suppose it's selfish to not want to give up this consciousness, but the bonds of family and friends and the love I have for them is too strong to want to give up after death. The thought of never seeing my mother after she dies saddens me like nothing else, and I'm sure the thought of never seeing the love of my life after death will do the same.
The best question someone ever asked me with regard to beliefs was "What is it doing for you?" For me, Christianity does the most.
edit: I see that Rock beat me to the punch.
You've got to take into account that folks that haven't grown up with the nuances of Deuteronomical laws (esp. their relationship to suzerains and suzerainty treaties), substitutionary atonement, fulfillment of prophesy, and an overriding concept of a sin nature are going to have a hard time grasping your definition of forgiveness as being little other than something your parents made you ask for after you hit your little brother in the head with a Wiffle-Ball bat.
That, plus your definition of Truth and right and wrong being wholly incumbent upon a literal reading (demomination aside) of the Bible.
Anti-religion is not anti-ethics.
People are generally comfortable with the ideals of Jesus' teachings once they are abstracted from the context. Within context, Jesus was teaching both the love and wrath of holy and personal God that demands accountability from everyone regarding their obedience/disobedience to his law. Its the truth behind the ideals that can be offensive to a lot of people.
You've got to take into account that folks that haven't grown up with the nuances of Deuteronomical laws (esp. their relationship to suzerains and suzerainty treaties), substitutionary atonement, fulfillment of prophesy, and an overriding concept of a sin nature are going to have a hard time grasping your definition of forgiveness as being little other than something your parents made you ask for after you hit your little brother in the head with a Wiffle-Ball bat.
That, plus your definition of Truth and right and wrong being wholly incumbent upon a literal reading (demomination aside) of the Bible.
With all the pseudo fiefdoms people got in America and peoples concepts of sin and justifications evolving I think people still get down together and agree upon the same shit. Amidst the takeover of these Abrahamic religions the same mysteries never lapsed in an attempt to be understood felt or used by people before them. I've never really read much of the New Testament and have read considerably more elsewhere but from living in America I can definitely feel the Judeo Christian and yes, though many are drawing the line now Muslim, all Abrahamic faiths get down on the same shit Jesus represents in comparison to my experience with my friends who've grown up in Communist countries. For the West Jesus represents this chest-thumping kind of spirit, the philosophy of Christ is more of a declaration than a meditation.
No matter how faithless or faith different you could be raised compartmentalizing your definition of sin doesn't change the popular view thats around you wherever you're going to be. The most unique phenomena I've encountered is from working with Autistic kids. My friends from Communist countries would bring it to my attention that their Eastern and I guess socialist concept of faith allowed room for them to participate in the focus of Gods landscape. For instance, children outside Judeo Christian countries born with disabilities would be sacrificed their burden of life and the burden on the family that would have to feed them. I actually spoke to someone who's very brother was misery killed in Russia in this fashion and he spoke to me as if "Judeo Christian" countries didn't understand that he was STILL a Christian and could appreciate the concept his society applied on his younger brother. I know this is a big difference in most Western concepts of Christ where taking a hand in such an understanding of Gods work is considered the biggest modern day fuck up and a sign of the apocalypse and shit, ala abortion, etc.
Personalism is always linked with socialism. I never really could decide how I felt about this East/West situation. The children I worked with were a blessing to be around but at the same time I'm not entirely ignorant to the fact that putting people on life support and all kinds of shit to evade death isn't Gods will either and I think is the very phenomena that separates a redefinition of Judeo Christian and Abrahamic values with the evolutions of the modern day. This was the only instance where I stepped back and thought wow, the values whatever they may be of the people around you HAD molded your outlook in some way. I just think people say shit like "Youre afraid of the Truth" and thump on their chest for the Lord and get psyched in a "these colors don't run" type of way talking about, His Way and Path. All with capitals ha and that is the type of Truth you speak of that some people are never going to swallow. What about that dude Tony Dollar on tv? And the Evangelical guys who are down with having like 8 Bentley's all in the name of the Lord? THAT is another evolution and compartmentalization of Prophecy or what?!?! I think most of that shit from both sides wether you a heathen or a hysteric is an epidemic of a fucking cracked out society!!!!
My father is an ordined minister. Before going off to my Christian Grammar School, I was swallowing suzerains and TULIPs along with my breakfast oatmeal.
The issue isn't what you have to lose by believing in Heaven but rather, what conditions come with that belief, at least in terms of what certain religions mandate as requirements to enter the kingdom.
One of my main issues with Christianity are the evangelical sects (my Taiwanese brethren know what the fuck I'm talking about) that I grew up around and the general idea that belief - in a dogmatic sense - is necessary to receive salvation from damnation. I used to talk about this with my college roommate, who was Jewish, and he never got it either: it seemed like Christianity was basically evangelizing through spiritual extortion compared to Judaism, which, despite sharing similar theological roots, doesn't threaten hell to the non-believers (I might be mistaken about this but I'm assuming there's no shortage of folks around here to correct me).
In any case, the argument that Hitchens and the other New Atheists would make is that Heaven is merely part of the mass delusion that religion promises and the standard retort would be, "how is Heaven any different from believing in Olympus or Valhalla?" Those wacky atheists, always playing the pagan card...
Well, obviously, the conditions vary, otherwise all Christians would be Roman Catholics. So the question remains, "What do you have to lose," considering there's a condition for everyone who is open to believing. Furthermore, it is a matter of faith. If you believe that you can go to Heaven simply by doing such-and-such, that is your belief, however self-serving it could be. I suppose this cuts to the core of organized religion vs. personal religion.
And these guys don't understand and never will understand that it has everything to do with "belief" and not "logic".
TULIP is an acrostic for the Five Tenets of Calvinism. Limited Atonement is the most controversial of the five points, leading some Calvinists who deny it to refer to their ideology as Four-Point Calvinism.
This acrostic was really the work of John Calvin's followers as a response to their doctrinal rivals, the Arminians.
We've got to pull in records so this doesn't turn into www.letstalkaboutjesus!!!11.com
I don't subscribe to organized religion, but I understand some people need that in their lives and I respect that (there would probably be a lot less problems if we all did). I believe it's all different paths leading to the same place so do what works for you.
I completely believe in God, but I don't believe he (or she) put us here to burn in hell. What kind of God says "I Love you unconditionally" and then threatens you with eternal damnation? I just don't buy it. I believe it's become a tool to control people through fear.
I think we're here to grow and learn spiritually and we will continue to live well beyond this life in some form or another.
ha! thats really fucked.
He'd still put 'em on eBay, though.
GET THAT MONEY, JESUS!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm
i was raised roman catholic, but am agnostic now. I still though do somewhat believe he existed as a person, but was not the divine being he claimed to be. I think he was a guy in that era that saw a lot of real fucked up shit going down and decided to use the word of a "higher power" to gain peoples faith/fear to fix there wickedness. Which is completely cool with me as it did make people unify and start to curb the error of there ways.
I myself just cannot see us transcending to heaven/hell after death. Wishful thinking but it just doesnt make logical/scientific sense for this to happen. Until anyone can prove it otherwise i will always remain a skeptic. Faith is a good thing to have and if it inspires you then more power to you. I just think you need to have faith in yourself and understand that your life is precious so make the best of it while your here. And also I think a lot of eastern religion is on point with the aspects of karma,energy, chakras, etc... which they are starting to gain a little insight through quantum physics . Just the whole deity thing throws me off in any religion.
Statements like this can be really misleading to people who don't know any physics. Quantum physics can just be seen as a metaphor for yin & yang. Basically, really small particles like electrons aren't really in one place or another: if you try to measure where they are, there is one probability they will be in one particular place, and another probability they will be in another, and the way this fits into theory is that they are in "superposition". Kind of in both places, but not really either place. Another instance of this is the particle-wave theory of light: light particles have properties of particles and waves, but they are not really either thing, and they are kind of both. All it is is a metaphor for yin & yang in that everything has some "good" and some "bad" in it, but is not really either. I would not say that quantum physics proves or gives insight into any kind of religion at all, it can just be seen as a physical parallel. I don't know, maybe that gives insight, I just think that too many people take that statement too far and all of a sudden think they've proven something.
Probably so on Azitis.
That Fraction album is a monster. I love that one.