This thread began with people celebrating the death of a Religious Leader so hateful and evil that if it were up to him and his followers, there would be laws making homosexuality illegal and punishable by law.
And in the same thread...
Some of the same people...
Are defending an entirely different religion that has already put these Falwellian laws into effect in every country that they are in power and have excuted 1,000's of people under said laws.
Slice it and dice it anyway you want.....
That's some amazing shit.
Rock,
You haven't commented on the fact that the majority of secular governments in the world have anti-gay laws. You are being a hypocrite.
And in case you didn't read the list or notice BUT, the majority of the Muslim countries in North Africa and the Middle East have SECULAR governments that do not use Islamic law.
Muslim countries with no anti-gay laws: Indonesia, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, and Iraq
Are defending an entirely different religion that has already put these Falwellian laws into effect in every country that they are in power and have excuted 1,000's of people under said laws.
How about the non-Muslim government that might have killed gays? I haven't heard you talk about them.
Nazi Germany killed up to 15,000 gays. There are around 15 states in the U.S. that have anti-sodomy laws, while not really enforced anymore, they use to be used against gays, and they're still on the books. And they all have SECULAR government's by the way.
And again, the majority of Muslim countries do not enforce Islamic law.
Are defending an entirely different religion that has already put these Falwellian laws into effect in every country that they are in power and have excuted 1,000's of people under said laws.
How about the non-Muslim government that might have killed gays? I haven't heard you talk about them.
Nazi Germany killed up to 15,000 gays. There are around 15 states in the U.S. that have anti-sodomy laws, while not really enforced anymore, they use to be used against gays, and they're still on the books. And they all have SECULAR government's by the way.
And again, the majority of Muslim countries do not enforce Islamic law.
Hitler killed 15,000 gays it was wrong and his ass is dead and his movement has been demonized and all but eliminated.
Jerry Falwell dreamed of making homosexuality a crime, he was wrong, and in his death he was demonized as he should be.
EVERY Islamic government in the world has the exact laws Falwell wanted on the books, but for some reason pointing out that THIS is wrong is bigotry.
You point out that there are plenty of countries, that have a large Muslim population, but NOT an Islamic government, that do not have these laws.
To me this proves the point that people are not the problem, religious doctrine is.
I know you don't support the punishment and execution of 1,000's of gay people at the hands of the Islamic governments so the ONLY point I can see being made to rationalize this mess is that ALL the countries under Islamic rule are practicing a bastardized and minority version of the religion.
While all the Muslims living in Secular run countries are practicing the TRUE version of the religion.
You may buy this, I don't, but I could if maybe there was just ONE Islamic based Government that didn't practice this Bigotry against gay men(and others).
And Jonny......I am not saying Falwell = Islam as an all emcompassing across the board statement. I'm saying they both have a very hateful and evil common thread and if we recognize it in one, we should recognize it in the other, I don't see how that is bigotry.
last night there were a myriad of TV Shows with folks singing the praises of all the "good" things Jerry Falwell did. And a few of them(Drug & Alcohol Programs, Feeding the Poor, etc.) were actually somewhat impressive.
The fact he did SOME good, doesn't make up for the extreme hate he preached and practiced.
And I apply this equation to ANY religion......even the ones that are "taboo" to critisize in our current landscape.
Killing people because they are gay is bigotry, pointing it out isn't.
That some very smart and sincere people on this board actually deign to address your queries - such as the ridiculous Falwell = all of Islam debate - is an act of such extraordinary generosity, that the only thing I consider more frustrating than your stubborness and irrationality is that good people are wasting their time on someone who clearly doesn't give a fuck about anything besides the sound of your own voice.
dude O-dub c'mon. the Strut is all about people engaging stupid people in stupid arguments. didn't I see you wasting your time in the inane "Philly Stress" thread just today?
don't pretend like you are doing anyone a favor by engaging them in argument. some of y'all actually sound a little pathetic debating Rich all day and then turning around and saying you shouldn't even be wasting your time. you obviously thought he and his argument were worth something or the thread wouldn't be this long.
there's a lot of bullshit gets talked about/debated/argued about on the strut. the list of stupid/ignorant topics/opinions on this board is endless. and even if you happened to totally disagree with Rich's politics, he ranks nowhere near the top of that list.
Ben, you're welcome to that opinion but maybe it's just that he posts a lot more here (which he does, especially compared to other provocteurs like Saba or Dolo) but at this point, I simply have no patience to suffer the endless needling and redundant (and wholly nonsense) points he wants to get people here to "engage" him on. He wanted to know why I'm not offering up a rebuttal to his arguments and that was my response. If you find him sufferable, bravo you. I don't.
And maybe Philly Stress will turn into a similar gnat (no offense to Gnat) but I still hold out the idea that there might be some genuine conversation to be had there. With Rich, if it has anything to do with politics or society, he has aptly proven that he doesn't care for any viewpoint not his own.
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
Motown, that list is slightly misleading - several countries not on that list (Morocco, for example) do have laws against homosexuality (up to three years in the can) but do not routinely enforce them. Indonesia does not recognise the existence of homosexuality, hence the lack of laws against or any homosexual age of consent - it's not because the government is more liberal, actually it's the opposite in Indonesia's case.
There is and has always been sex between men in Muslim countries, usually young men, because for religious and cultural reasons women are expected to be virgins when they marry and there is little casual heterosexual fun on offer elsewhere. It is not uncommon that before getting hitched men will fool around with each other without considering themselves gay.
maybe Philly Stress will turn into a similar gnat (no offense to Gnat) but I still hold out the idea that there might be some genuine conversation to be had there.
I'm starting to suspect that SS is attracting new posters who are more interested in the race & politics shitfests than talking about music & records...
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
Please explain how quoting Islamic Law, stating that said Islamic law finds homosexuality a crime, and giving accurate figures on how many people have been executed via said laws is considered "Anti-Islamic"??
This is like saying that claiming Hitler killed Jews is "Anti-Nazi"
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
Please explain how quoting Islamic Law, stating that said Islamic law finds homosexuality a crime, and giving accurate figures on how many people have been executed via said laws is considered "Anti-Islamic"??
This is like saying that claiming Hitler killed Jews is "Anti-Nazi"
Rock,
There are very few countries that use Islamic law. They do happen to have anti-gay laws though. There are Muslim countries that have secular governments, that also have anti-gay laws. There are also Muslim countries, with secular governments that do not have anti-gay laws.
Religion obviously plays a role in politics and culture around the world, but there also obviously has to be something else going on besides Islam to account for those countries' laws on gays.
The majority of secular governments in the world apparently have anti-gay laws, whether they have a Muslim population or not. Does that mean secularism is the "real" cause if "hating gays"?
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
Please explain how quoting Islamic Law, stating that said Islamic law finds homosexuality a crime, and giving accurate figures on how many people have been executed via said laws is considered "Anti-Islamic"??
This is like saying that claiming Hitler killed Jews is "Anti-Nazi"
Rock,
There are very few countries that use Islamic law. They do happen to have anti-gay laws though. There are Muslim countries that have secular governments, that also have anti-gay laws. There are also Muslim countries, with secular governments that do not have anti-gay laws.
Religion obviously plays a role in politics and culture around the world, but there also obviously has to be something else going on besides Islam to account for those countries' laws on gays.
The majority of secular governments in the world apparently have anti-gay laws, whether they have a Muslim population or not. Does that mean secularism is the "real" cause if "hating gays"?
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
governments with brown haired leaders? governments with male leaders? governments whose constitutions were ratified on weekdays? governments whose names have more than four letters but less than seven?
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
Oliver, it's easy to chalk my post up to some "sympathy" for the substance of what Rock is saying. And while I may have some sympathy for what he is saying (as youyourself admit to having not infrequently), that's not what was behind my comment.
Read my post again: I meant simply to point out the arrogance of suggesting that y'all are doing Rock "charity" by debating him.
It's not only arrogant, but ironic to suggest that debating Rock is a waste of your time -- all the while pushing this debate with Rock into a five pager.
If someone came in here spitting anti-Semitism I may take him/her to task, but I wouldn't do so while proclaiming that the whole exercise was a waste of time. If it were a waste of time I wouldn't bother.
Clearly Rock's comments mean something to someone, hence the length of the thread.
I haven't been debating Rock in this entire thread with the sole, and notably slight, nod to suggesting he read Hitchens book. "Debate" suggests that I've taken his comments at face value and responded to them. Instead, I've been clowning the fact that he's asking such a ridiculous series of questions to begin with.
In contrast, Johnny and Motown have been debating him and yeah, I think they're sacrificing valuable brain cells for a futile task. It pains me to see smart people wasting time like that.
I'm not berating them for doing it. I'm not even, per se, berating Rock for asking. I tried to suggest, "hey, don't feed the troll" but if people want to go ahead and take it there, fine. But yeah, I do think it's a waste of time insofar as the original query was nonsense and no matter how many people calmly try to explain why, he keeps repeating the same nonsense point over and over.
[Rockadelicims]Frankly, I think it's a double standard that you're calling me arrogant when you're not acknowledging how arrogant Rock is behaving. I'm just trying to point out how this board is full of hypocrites.[/Rockadelicsm]
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
governments with brown haired leaders?
governments with male leaders? governments whose constitutions were ratified on weekdays? governments whose names have more than four letters but less than seven?
Close....it was an Islamic Theocracy.
Now maybe someone can explain how you separate the actions of a Theocracy and the religion that it represents.
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
governments with brown haired leaders?
governments with male leaders? governments whose constitutions were ratified on weekdays? governments whose names have more than four letters but less than seven?
Close....it was an Islamic Theocracy.
Now maybe someone can explain how you separate the actions of a Theocracy and the religion that it represents.
rockadelic is just working as a stand-in for all the frustrating stupidity that we see on the news etc. and can't really interact with. since folks started having political arguments on the internet i wouldn't be surprised if political arguments in bars and taxicabs or whatever have been on the decline.
He's like a punching bag, always there for you to flex yr righteous indignation towards
I haven't been debating Rock in this entire thread with the sole, and notably slight, nod to suggesting he read Hitchens book. "Debate" suggests that I've taken his comments at face value and responded to them. Instead, I've been clowning the fact that he's asking such a ridiculous series of questions to begin with.
In contrast, Johnny and Motown have been debating him and yeah, I think they're sacrificing valuable brain cells for a futile task. It pains me to see smart people wasting time like that.
I'm not berating them for doing it. I'm not even, per se, berating Rock for asking. I tried to suggest, "hey, don't feed the troll" but if people want to go ahead and take it there, fine. But yeah, I do think it's a waste of time insofar as the original query was nonsense and no matter how many people calmly try to explain why, he keeps repeating the same nonsense point over and over.
[Rockadelicims]Frankly, I think it's a double standard that you're calling me arrogant when you're not acknowledging how arrogant Rock is behaving. I'm just trying to point out how this board is full of hypocrites.[/Rockadelicsm]
Odub, One thing everyone can be sure of is that if you take the time to debate my posts, you'll always have Dolo on your side as an ally. Comforting I'm sure.
I'd really like to know , other than making assumptions and taking my statements one or two steps beyond where I've taken them, what it is you disagree with.
Instead of a lengthy soliliquy as to why I'm a waste of time, let's just get down to brass tacks and with simple true or false answers tell me where we disagree.
1) Jerry Falwell was an asshole who was filled with hate and led a movement of intolerance that was aimed at people who were "different" than him and his follower, with Homosexuals being a prime example. True or False
2) There are other religions and Religious leaders besides Falwell, some of which have Theocratic powers, that not only preach, but actually practice the exact kind of hatred that Jerry Falwell did. When it comes to the topic of Homosexuality, Islam is the greatest offender. True or False
3) Every country that is under a theocratic Islamic rule has laws making homosexuality a crime which is bigoted and hateful. These laws, in these countries, are a direct result of the religious doctrine held by the Theocracy. True or False
That's pretty much all I've said here. If you read the above and interpret it as "Rock says All Muslims Kill Gays" as at least one person did, I suggest it's a comprehension problem.
If you read the above and feel it's nothing more than ME showing hatred of a specific religion I suggest it's my hatred of actions done in the name of said religion. Who here doesn't hate executing people for their sexual preference?
I doubt anyone here supports the execution of people just because they are gay. So who do YOU point a finger of blame at for the heinious executions that have been carried out by an Islamic Theocracy if not the very religion it is built on?
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
governments with brown haired leaders?
governments with male leaders? governments whose constitutions were ratified on weekdays? governments whose names have more than four letters but less than seven?
Close....it was an Islamic Theocracy.
Now maybe someone can explain how you separate the actions of a Theocracy and the religion that it represents.
Comments
Rock,
You haven't commented on the fact that the majority of secular governments in the world have anti-gay laws. You are being a hypocrite.
And in case you didn't read the list or notice BUT, the majority of the Muslim countries in North Africa and the Middle East have SECULAR governments that do not use Islamic law.
Muslim countries with no anti-gay laws: Indonesia, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, and Iraq
How about the non-Muslim government that might have killed gays? I haven't heard you talk about them.
Nazi Germany killed up to 15,000 gays. There are around 15 states in the U.S. that have anti-sodomy laws, while not really enforced anymore, they use to be used against gays, and they're still on the books. And they all have SECULAR government's by the way.
And again, the majority of Muslim countries do not enforce Islamic law.
"Blow them all away in the name of the Lord."
Takes one to know one.
Hitler killed 15,000 gays it was wrong and his ass is dead and his movement has been demonized and all but eliminated.
Jerry Falwell dreamed of making homosexuality a crime, he was wrong, and in his death he was demonized as he should be.
EVERY Islamic government in the world has the exact laws Falwell wanted on the books, but for some reason pointing out that THIS is wrong is bigotry.
You point out that there are plenty of countries, that have a large Muslim population, but NOT an Islamic government, that do not have these laws.
To me this proves the point that people are not the problem, religious doctrine is.
I know you don't support the punishment and execution of 1,000's of gay people at the hands of the Islamic governments so the ONLY point I can see being made to rationalize this mess is that ALL the countries under Islamic rule are practicing a bastardized and minority version of the religion.
While all the Muslims living in Secular run countries are practicing the TRUE version of the religion.
You may buy this, I don't, but I could if maybe there was just ONE Islamic based Government that didn't practice this Bigotry against gay men(and others).
And Jonny......I am not saying Falwell = Islam as an all emcompassing across the board statement. I'm saying they both have a very hateful and evil common thread and if we recognize it in one, we should recognize it in the other, I don't see how that is bigotry.
last night there were a myriad of TV Shows with folks singing the praises of all the "good" things Jerry Falwell did. And a few of them(Drug & Alcohol Programs, Feeding the Poor, etc.) were actually somewhat impressive.
The fact he did SOME good, doesn't make up for the extreme hate he preached and practiced.
And I apply this equation to ANY religion......even the ones that are "taboo" to critisize in our current landscape.
Killing people because they are gay is bigotry, pointing it out isn't.
Mine and wrong.
Ben, you're welcome to that opinion but maybe it's just that he posts a lot more here (which he does, especially compared to other provocteurs like Saba or Dolo) but at this point, I simply have no patience to suffer the endless needling and redundant (and wholly nonsense) points he wants to get people here to "engage" him on. He wanted to know why I'm not offering up a rebuttal to his arguments and that was my response. If you find him sufferable, bravo you. I don't.
And maybe Philly Stress will turn into a similar gnat (no offense to Gnat) but I still hold out the idea that there might be some genuine conversation to be had there. With Rich, if it has anything to do with politics or society, he has aptly proven that he doesn't care for any viewpoint not his own.
Dare I say, if Rock's views in this thread were as patently anti-Semitic as they are anti-Islamic, I wonder if you'd be so charitable.
There is and has always been sex between men in Muslim countries, usually young men, because for religious and cultural reasons women are expected to be virgins when they marry and there is little casual heterosexual fun on offer elsewhere. It is not uncommon that before getting hitched men will fool around with each other without considering themselves gay.
I'm starting to suspect that SS is attracting new posters who are more interested in the race & politics shitfests than talking about music & records...
Please explain how quoting Islamic Law, stating that said Islamic law finds homosexuality a crime, and giving accurate figures on how many people have been executed via said laws is considered "Anti-Islamic"??
This is like saying that claiming Hitler killed Jews is "Anti-Nazi"
can argue with everyone over all his pet causes?
Then perhaps he wouldn't feel the need to make every other
thread on the board all about him instead of what it is meant
to be about.
Rock's Corner.
Rock,
There are very few countries that use Islamic law. They do happen to have anti-gay laws though. There are Muslim countries that have secular governments, that also have anti-gay laws. There are also Muslim countries, with secular governments that do not have anti-gay laws.
Religion obviously plays a role in politics and culture around the world, but there also obviously has to be something else going on besides Islam to account for those countries' laws on gays.
The majority of secular governments in the world apparently have anti-gay laws, whether they have a Muslim population or not. Does that mean secularism is the "real" cause if "hating gays"?
fair enough....what "kind" of Government has executed more people for being gay in the last 40 years than any other??
Can I get paid for this??
If no one responded/reacted to my posts, how would they turn into anything??
Or maybe when I post something, and someone takes that post to task, I should just fade away and not respond?
governments with male leaders?
governments whose constitutions were ratified on weekdays?
governments whose names have more than four letters but less than seven?
"Under the Rock"
Alternatively:
Oliver, it's easy to chalk my post up to some "sympathy" for the substance of what Rock is saying. And while I may have some sympathy for what he is saying (as youyourself admit to having not infrequently), that's not what was behind my comment.
Read my post again: I meant simply to point out the arrogance of suggesting that y'all are doing Rock "charity" by debating him.
It's not only arrogant, but ironic to suggest that debating Rock is a waste of your time -- all the while pushing this debate with Rock into a five pager.
If someone came in here spitting anti-Semitism I may take him/her to task, but I wouldn't do so while proclaiming that the whole exercise was a waste of time. If it were a waste of time I wouldn't bother.
Clearly Rock's comments mean something to someone, hence the length of the thread.
I haven't been debating Rock in this entire thread with the sole, and notably slight, nod to suggesting he read Hitchens book. "Debate" suggests that I've taken his comments at face value and responded to them. Instead, I've been clowning the fact that he's asking such a ridiculous series of questions to begin with.
In contrast, Johnny and Motown have been debating him and yeah, I think they're sacrificing valuable brain cells for a futile task. It pains me to see smart people wasting time like that.
I'm not berating them for doing it. I'm not even, per se, berating Rock for asking. I tried to suggest, "hey, don't feed the troll" but if people want to go ahead and take it there, fine. But yeah, I do think it's a waste of time insofar as the original query was nonsense and no matter how many people calmly try to explain why, he keeps repeating the same nonsense point over and over.
[Rockadelicims]Frankly, I think it's a double standard that you're calling me arrogant when you're not acknowledging how arrogant Rock is behaving. I'm just trying to point out how this board is full of hypocrites.[/Rockadelicsm]
Close....it was an Islamic Theocracy.
Now maybe someone can explain how you separate the actions of a Theocracy and the religion that it represents.
This will be good.
I'll give you a hint: look at Turkey.
^^^^LOL at this
I love it when people point to the mere fact of little dudes running their keyboards as evidence of a valid controversy.
"I wouldn't be ass-hurt if I wasn't right!"
rockadelic is just working as a stand-in for all the frustrating stupidity that we see on the news etc. and can't really interact with. since folks started having political arguments on the internet i wouldn't be surprised if political arguments in bars and taxicabs or whatever have been on the decline.
He's like a punching bag, always there for you to flex yr righteous indignation towards
^^^^^little dude running his keyboard.
Odub,
One thing everyone can be sure of is that if you take the time to debate my posts, you'll always have Dolo on your side as an ally. Comforting I'm sure.
I'd really like to know , other than making assumptions and taking my statements one or two steps beyond where I've taken them, what it is you disagree with.
Instead of a lengthy soliliquy as to why I'm a waste of time, let's just get down to brass tacks and with simple true or false answers tell me where we disagree.
1) Jerry Falwell was an asshole who was filled with hate and led a movement of intolerance that was aimed at people who were "different" than him and his follower, with Homosexuals being a prime example. True or False
2) There are other religions and Religious leaders besides Falwell, some of which have Theocratic powers, that not only preach, but actually practice the exact kind of hatred that Jerry Falwell did. When it comes to the topic of Homosexuality, Islam is the greatest offender.
True or False
3) Every country that is under a theocratic Islamic rule has laws making homosexuality a crime which is bigoted and hateful. These laws, in these countries, are a direct result of the religious doctrine held by the Theocracy.
True or False
That's pretty much all I've said here. If you read the above and interpret it as "Rock says All Muslims Kill Gays" as at least one person did, I suggest it's a comprehension problem.
If you read the above and feel it's nothing more than ME showing hatred of a specific religion I suggest it's my hatred of actions done in the name of said religion. Who here doesn't hate executing people for their sexual preference?
I doubt anyone here supports the execution of people just because they are gay. So who do YOU point a finger of blame at for the heinious executions that have been carried out by an Islamic Theocracy if not the very religion it is built on?
What religion is the Turkish Theocracy??
That is EXACTLY what I'm saying!!
You don't know what a duck (in this instance) even walks or sounds like.