virginia tech

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  • uniquely American



  • I wouldn't attempt, or even really understand how to comment on the state of other countries politics or social issues.

    I'm amazed at the number of people who are comfortable doing that, not particularly on this issue, but on many issues.

    and yet


    You don't JUST only not have guns down under, but you also don't have the drug problem, poverty problem, gang problem and all the history that would allow these things to exist..

    Until the esteemed Doctor's post I had no idea that large parts of Australia were gun free and that crime was scarce.

    I can't name a politician, a law or a political issue in Australia that I would attempt to speak on, as I have no knowledge and less interest.

    If you think that somehow by taking a fellow Aussie at his word, and repeating his attitude in my post, that I've contradicted myself. So be it.


    Instead of "repeating his attitude" maybe you mean "making simplistic assumptions"?

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts


    Instead of "repeating his attitude" maybe you mean "making simplistic assumptions"?

    Then educate my ass....what cities/towns in gun free Australia have the same gang/drug/poverty problems as a place like Philadelphia?

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    uniquely American


    Did you read your own link?

  • DrBorisQDrBorisQ 298 Posts
    As nations, we should help and respect other countries, but I am growing tired of citizens of other nations telling us how to run things in the U.S. You do it your way, we'll do it ours. If we're "wrong," we'll figure it out in the end. Different countries, different mores, different customs and different populations can't run their countries the same, thangs just don't work the same way around the world.
    Peace
    T.N.

    I wouldn't attempt, or even really understand how to comment (properly fix)[/b] the state of other countries politics or social issues. Word[/b]

    I'm amazed at the number of people who are comfortable doing that, not particularly on this issue, but on many issues.

    Guns are just a small part of what goes on in a place like Philly and other U.S. cities.

    You don't JUST only not have guns down under, but you also don't have the drug problem, poverty problem, gang problem and all the history that would allow these things to exist.. Not to the extent that the US, but it's there. [/b]

    Telling us how safe 4 million people in Australia are because they don't have guns doesn't, and can't, relate in any way to life in the U.S.---> Double True[/b]

    I could tell you about the town I live in, where there hasn't been a murder in 10 years, and it would mean about as much as gun control in Australia.

    Yes I realise that guns are only a small part of what goes on, and yes I realise that we are a young country and that our particular historical path has allowed us to some extent avoid many of the social problems the U.S and other parts of the world experience. That is not to say Australia doesn???t have its problems mind you.

    I don???t think anyone is claiming to fully understand the situation, or tell anyone how to fix it. Just making observations about the system we have here in the hope that the lessons we have learned can be of use to others. I don???t think it is at all inappropriate to comment on the social/political issues of another nation as long as you are open minded to the responses, which I believe most of the people on this board are.

    What I will add is that the political and social situation in the U.S gets very extensive worldwide coverage, so while we may not be living in the U.S we certainly have at least some knowledge as to what is going on. Not to mention that what affects the U.S affects large parts of the rest of the world in a pretty direct way, so I think it is in the interest of people in countries like Australia ??? not to mention the rest of the world ??? to pay attention to what is going on and to engage in discussion about it.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    DrB,
    With all due respect I think the snag is that....

    " Just making observations about the system we have here in the hope that the lessons we have learned can be of use to others[/b] .

    What is the lesson?

    Did you guys have an incredible gun/crime problem and fix it??

    We are past the point where your lesson can really mean anything to us other than what we "shoulda" done 100 years ago or so.

    And it comes across kinda snooty.

    And I mean that in the nicest way possible(ny accent)

  • tripledoubletripledouble 7,636 Posts
    Hopefully this terrible event will help spark real conversation and examination about our country's culture of violence. At the very least we can get some real talk out there. It's a terrible situation.

    Shit, look at what's happening in Philly right now. It's INSANE. Us, as Americans, need to face the deep dark truthful mirror, and fast.

    What's happening in Philly right now?


    Record homicide rates. People getting killed almost every day. Gun violence is out of control. An article about it in the NY Times talks about it, but it's even deeper than you think. Kids in the streets are so fucking wild right now.

    And lest we forget that someone got shot at a PEACE RALLY a few weeks ago.

    shit is bananas.someone got killed in the park near my house this weekend. yesterday, some dude was running from the cops, carjacking shit, and got shot down a block from my parents house. and this is in a relatively "nice" section. guns everywhere.record pace murders is not a good thing

  • DrBorisQDrBorisQ 298 Posts
    DrB,
    With all due respect I think the snag is that....

    " Just making observations about the system we have here in the hope that the lessons we have learned can be of use to others[/b] .

    What is the lesson?

    Did you guys have an incredible gun/crime problem and fix it??

    We are past the point where your lesson can really mean anything to us other than what we "shoulda" done 100 years ago or so.

    And it comes across kinda snooty.

    And I mean that in the nicest way possible(ny accent)

    Haha yeah i can see that. I didn't really phrase it right. I meant it more in a broader sense; in that when you are trying to solve some sort of problem it is best to cast your net of information gathering as widely as possible. To look to as many examples as you can, even if they are not directly comparable - there still may be bits that are relevant or that can be applied.

    What the U.S can take out of the Australian example is unclear, but i do think it useful to take a look at as a (reasonably successful) example of gun control.

  • drumsdrums 83 Posts
    The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time.

    It does? It's interesting to read about this from another perspective since I don't live in America. I've only got information (so far) about this horrible event from the swedish media, where I live. I gotta say with a fair amount of confidence that this type of thing never have happened over here and that my first thought on why this sort of thing has happened repeatetly in America is because of the gun laws. 200 millions guns in circulation is crazy! It's almost unbelievable. Why whould 200 million people be interested in owning a gun?

  • coffinjoecoffinjoe 1,743 Posts
    one of my most fun daze in amsterdam turned
    into one of my worse
    when i got back to my hotel & caught the breaking news
    24 hours of stress untill i got home
    i live in a town that is very connected to vt,
    have a child who is a freshman at the other big va school
    most of her high school class are freshman at tech
    friends, neighbors
    everyone is shook

    i fear for when the victims names are released

  • BeatnicholasBeatnicholas 1,005 Posts
    Just a comment on the comparison between gun violence and different countries

    It's not "that easy" (from a legal basis) to obtain a hand gun in London, specially if you are a "youth".. but if you follow our local news, you'll know we've had escalating violence and shocking murders going on here, by teenagers

    violence is violence, no matter how it goes down.. the virginia tech murders are brutal and shocking, particularly in the context of where, why and how they went down - but I think the nature of that is also to do with previous events of a similar nature (eg columbine).. I am just as shocked by 16 year olds breaking and entering each others houses to settle "beef" and murdering some one in their bed in cold blood..

    the media reporting on all of this is always appalling and the familiar debates always rise to the top (ie whose to blame? society? hip hop? marilyn manson? gun control laws?) and the practical reality, as with the ultimately failing "war on terror", is that if individuals are "unhinged", or motivated enough, any degree of inhuman/inhumane behaviour is possible, and you can't ever hope to prevent these type of events..

    I would say though, that any government that carries out such appalling violence with one hand, and condemns violence with the other, can't really be seen to be setting a good example in all of this.

    peace

  • nzshadownzshadow 5,518 Posts
    one of my most fun daze in amsterdam turned
    into one of my worse
    when i got back to my hotel & caught the breaking news
    24 hours of stress untill i got home
    i live in a town that is very connected to vt,
    have a child who is a freshman at the other big va school
    most of her high school class are freshman at tech
    friends, neighbors
    everyone is shook

    i fear for when the victims names are released

    Sorry i didnt make it to ARC, next time.

    My thoughts are with you and your family.

    aLAN.

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
    The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time.

    It does? It's interesting to read about this from another perspective since I don't live in America. I've only got information (so far) about this horrible event from the swedish media, where I live. I gotta say with a fair amount of confidence that this type of thing never have happened over here and that my first thought on why this sort of thing has happened repeatetly in America is because of the gun laws. 200 millions guns in circulation is crazy! It's almost unbelievable. Why whould 200 million people be interested in owning a gun?


    This is kind of key to most of the observations most of the non-Americans are making on the matter, I'd say. The Virginia Tech murders have been the front page lead on just about every UK paper of any note for the last two days, and will doubtless continue to be a major story here for some time yet.

    As a non-American living in an industrialised Western country, I'm exposed to aspects of American culture on the daily, both voluntarily and otherwise. It continues to have a significant effect on my life and the way I live it, as it's done since birth, and it's for this reason that I don't feel uncomfortable about commenting on things like this - within reasonable and, I hope, respectful limits, of course. After all, you don't need to be from the North Pole to know it's cold.

    The whole issue of gun ownership seems to me to be uniquely American in a way that differs from the more widely-accepted US "imports" (for want of a better term) that non-Americans are familiar with, such as TV, movies, music, etc. Personal ownership of firearms amongst everyday citizens is about the only significant aspect of US culture that hasn't travelled abroad. I still occasionally meet Americans who are a little bewildered by the fact that the overwhelming majority of law-abiding Brits (and even a few who aren't so law-abiding) neither own, nor would want to own, a gun. Nevertheless, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that, if guns were as widely and comparatively easily available over here as they are in the US, we'd be looking at a similar situation. As it stands, though, it does very much seem as if the tighter regulations on gun ownership in the UK are largely doing the job they're intended to do. For example, petty criminals, such as house-breakers, won't carry guns because they know they're not likely to find themselves facing one if they're caught in the act, and because they risk a far higher prison sentence if they're found in possession of an illegal firearm. For me, the wider availability of guns only serves to exacerbate social problems such as drug use, poverty and gang-related violence, wherever they exist. They're not the sole cause of those problems, by any means, but they certainly don't help any.



    "Saturday night just ain't that special
    Yeah, I got the constitution on the run
    'Cause even though we've got the right
    To defend our home, to defend our life
    Got to understand to get it in hand about the guns"

  • drumsdrums 83 Posts
    This is kind of key to most of the observations most of the non-Americans are making on the matter, I'd say. The Virginia Tech murders have been the front page lead on just about every UK paper of any note for the last two days, and will doubtless continue to be a major story here for some time yet.

    As a non-American living in an industrialised Western country, I'm exposed to aspects of American culture on the daily, both voluntarily and otherwise. It continues to have a significant effect on my life and the way I live it, as it's done since birth, and it's for this reason that I don't feel uncomfortable about commenting on things like this - within reasonable and, I hope, respectful limits, of course. After all, you don't need to be from the North Pole to know it's cold.

    The whole issue of gun ownership seems to me to be uniquely American in a way that differs from the more widely-accepted US "imports" (for want of a better term) that non-Americans are familiar with, such as TV, movies, music, etc. Personal ownership of firearms amongst everyday citizens is about the only significant aspect of US culture that hasn't travelled abroad. I still occasionally meet Americans who are a little bewildered by the fact that the overwhelming majority of law-abiding Brits (and even a few who aren't so law-abiding) neither own, nor would want to own, a gun. Nevertheless, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that, if guns were as widely and comparatively easily available over here as they are in the US, we'd be looking at a similar situation. As it stands, though, it does very much seem as if the tighter regulations on gun ownership in the UK are largely doing the job they're intended to do. For example, petty criminals, such as house-breakers, won't carry guns because they know they're not likely to find themselves facing one if they're caught in the act, and because they risk a far higher prison sentence if they're found in possession of an illegal firearm. For me, the wider availability of guns only serves to exacerbate social problems such as drug use, poverty and gang-related violence, wherever they exist. They're not the sole cause of those problems, by any means, but they certainly don't help any.



    "Saturday night just ain't that special
    Yeah, I got the constitution on the run
    'Cause even though we've got the right
    To defend our home, to defend our life
    Got to understand to get it in hand about the guns"


  • coffinjoecoffinjoe 1,743 Posts
    i blame these idiots




    for the sad state of gun "control" in america
    common sense vs lunatic fringe who won't budge or compromise an inch
    they hold the political powers by the nut sack
    & no ammount of blood in the streets will change their mind

  • BeatnicholasBeatnicholas 1,005 Posts
    re: doc mccoy - I feel you, in the sense that it could and would get worse over here if we allowed wider access to guns

    main thing right now for street crimes is knives.. accessible, scary, guaranteed to hurt and leave people physically and mentally scared.. the bigger and scarier the better. scares the shit out of me, that's for sure. "ban the blade" ain't working with the youth, if the knife crime I walked past on saturday says anything..

  • drumsdrums 83 Posts
    i blame these idiots




    for the sad state of gun "control" in america
    common sense vs lunatic fringe who won't budge or compromise an inch
    they hold the political powers by the nut sack
    & no ammount of blood in the streets will change their mind

    one thing i can't understand is why it is that important to have the right to own a gun unless you're a professional hunter. i know it's in the constitution but is that right relative today? i would think no. is it better to have metal detectors in the schools instead of just making it harder for a person to buy a gun?

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    tons o' guns everybody's getting strapped
    tons o' guns got to watch the way you act
    tons o' guns real easy to get
    tons o' guns bringing nothing but death
    tons o' guns are in the streets nowadays
    it's big money and you know crime pays
    check your nearest overpopulated ghetto
    they greet you with a pistol not trying to say hello
    mad kids packed 'cos the neighborhood's like that
    want some shit that's fat catch a victim do a stick
    kids pulling triggers, n*ggas killing n*ggas
    five-o they sit and wait and tally death-toll figures
    it's crazy there ain't no time to really chill
    jealous motherfuckers always want to act ill
    22's 25's 44's 45's
    mack elevens ak's taking mad lives
    what the fuck you gonna do in a situation
    it's like you need to have steel just to feel relaxation
    tons o' guns

    "But the thing they know best is where the gun is kept"

    tons o' guns you got we got they got
    the state of affairs yo it's like mad chaos
    i know a kid who just passed the other day
    they shot him sixteen times so there he lay
    you can pray for this shit to like cease
    but until then a n*gga's gonna pack a piece[/b]
    and yo the devil's got assasination squads
    want to kill n*ggas 'cos they're scared of gods
    they got camps where they train they learn to take aim
    at a n*gga like a piece of game
    and i'm not seeing that, them days are gone
    'cos now we got chrome to put them where they belong
    so me a rude boy from a inna Brooklyn
    fuck the bullshit pain and suffering
    i'm coming off with a foolproof plan
    as if each every lyric was worth a hundred grand
    i stand in the face of hatred
    letting off mad shots making devils run naked
    tons o' guns

    "But the thing they know best is where the gun is kept"

    tons o' guns everybody's getting strapped
    tons o' guns got to watch the way you act
    tons o' guns real easy to get
    tons o' guns bringing nothing but death
    tons o' guns but i don't glorify
    'cos more guns will come and much more will die
    why, yo i don't know black
    some motherfuckers just be living like that
    they like to feel the chrome in their hands
    the shit makes them feel like little big man
    twelve years old catching wreck
    'cos there ain't no supervision putting kids in check
    people get wounded, others they perish
    and what about the mother and the child she cherish
    the city is wild up steps the wild child
    tension anger living in danger
    what the fuck you gonna do in a situation
    it's like you need to have steel just to feel relaxation
    tons o' guns...

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    one of my most fun daze in amsterdam turned
    into one of my worse
    when i got back to my hotel & caught the breaking news
    24 hours of stress untill i got home
    i live in a town that is very connected to vt,
    have a child who is a freshman at the other big va school
    most of her high school class are freshman at tech
    friends, neighbors
    everyone is shook

    i fear for when the victims names are released

    Lots of students from this area and nearby, Tim. Unvelievably sad. I hope your daughter has nothing but good news to report.

  • SnagglepusSnagglepus 1,756 Posts
    i blame these idiots




    for the sad state of gun "control" in america
    common sense vs lunatic fringe who won't budge or compromise an inch
    they hold the political powers by the nut sack
    & no ammount of blood in the streets will change their mind

    I can't stand how they cling soooo hard to the 2nd Amendment. Here you go:

    "Amendment II

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


    A well regulated militia, being necessary ...? Is this still relevant today? I'd say we have a pretty damned regulated militia already.

    Now, I have mixed feelings when it comes to gun control (as I'm sure most people do). Of course hunters should be able to possess firearms. And, to a certain extent, I can justify a weapon for personal safety these days (though I personally have no interest). But a line has to be drawn somewhere. And it doesn't help when the 2nd Amendment is treated with religious reverence. If you look at the words, it is easy to see that they were written in a vastly different cultural and political context from what we see today. They didn't have massive cities with huge populations of people, automatic firearms etc etc.

    So, folks should think what they'd like about guns. I'd just prefer it if the issues were discussed without tossing around "Constitutional rights" because those rights are long overdue for a review.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    i blame these idiots




    for the sad state of gun "control" in america
    common sense vs lunatic fringe who won't budge or compromise an inch
    they hold the political powers by the nut sack
    & no ammount of blood in the streets will change their mind

    one thing i can't understand is why it is that important to have the right to own a gun unless you're a professional hunter. i know it's in the constitution but is that right relative today? i would think no. is it better to have metal detectors in the schools instead of just making it harder for a person to buy a gun?

    In certain places it is more difficult than others. Virginia, however, is probably the easiest state in the US to legally, quickly obtain most any kind of firearm, and also the most permissive of where you are allowed to carry them.

    As for the Constitution,if I had to pick one, I for one would rather legislate to the specific issue (although if gun laws were actually enforced, that would be a better move than more laws that no one enforces) than to start changing the language of the Constitution. Doesn't solve the vast array of problems of crime.

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts


    So, folks should think what they'd like about guns. I'd just prefer it if the issues were discussed without tossing around "Constitutional rights" because those rights are long overdue for a review.

    There are a lot of things we might 'prefer', but in the case of guns in America, Constitutional Rights are at the heart of the matter, plain and simple.

    I doubt you would prefer the direction a review of Constitutional Rights would go right about now.

  • SnagglepusSnagglepus 1,756 Posts

    As for the Constitution,if I had to pick one, I for one would rather legislate to the specific issue (although if gun laws were actually enforced, that would be a better move than more laws that no one enforces) than to start changing the language of the Constitution. Doesn't solve the vast array of problems of crime.

    True. When it comes down to it, the language of the Constitution is not going to change much on the street level. I guess I just have a problem with the way the 2nd Amendment is always stripped from its original context in public statements. The right to bear arms is one thing. The right to bear arms to keep a regulated militia is another.

  • SnagglepusSnagglepus 1,756 Posts
    I doubt you would prefer the direction a review of Constitutional Rights would go right about now.

    Agreed. Like I say above, I guess my problem is only with the 2nd Amendment being edited, stripping it of its original context. In general, we should hold on to the Constitution (or, more importantly, the Bill of Rights) with everything we have right now.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts


    So, folks should think what they'd like about guns. I'd just prefer it if the issues were discussed without tossing around "Constitutional rights" because those rights are long overdue for a review.

    There are a lot of things we might 'prefer', but in the case of guns in America, Constitutional Rights are at the heart of the matter, plain and simple.

    I doubt you would prefer the direction a review of Constitutional Rights would go right about now.

    I'd slightly disagree with this. I don't think, at this point, people hold onto their guns simply b/c it's their right to do so. Guns are part of American social life and fill in a variety of purposes - some practical, some purely symbolic - and in a society infused with a heavy dose of good ol' fashioned Christian fear, racial paranoia, class envy, masculine posturing, etc. - guns have become a powerfully simple "solution" to any number of anxieties.

    This all said, I think that incredibly strict gun control laws would work over the long term, at least in specific cities or states, but there isn't the political will or consensus to make that possible right now. And ironically, most gun control advocates push their agenda by also playing on people's fears but the blowback from that is for a large segment of the population, the way to deal with that fear is to arm yourself - not de-arm everyone else.

  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time.

    It does? It's interesting to read about this from another perspective since I don't live in America.

    I had a shooting when I was in school at WVU occur 2 floors down from my dorm room. 1 dead, 2 injured.

  • DB_CooperDB_Cooper Manhatin' 7,823 Posts
    The right to bear arms to keep a regulated militia is another.

    I do believe you're conflating "militia" with "professional standing army." As matters stand now, there really aren't any major militia groups. There hasn't been a need for them in quite some time.

    But the people must reserve the right to form and arm such a militia, should they become neccesary again. Imagine if Congress continued to pass Patriot Act-style legislation and continued to abridge and even obliterate personal freedoms in this country. Do you think we'd need a militia eventually?

  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    I doubt you would prefer the direction a review of Constitutional Rights would go right about now.

    Agreed. Like I say above, I guess my problem is only with the 2nd Amendment being edited, stripping it of its original context. In general, we should hold on to the Constitution (or, more importantly, the Bill of Rights) with everything we have right now.

    The Founding Fathers knew what they're doing. The "original context" is outlined in the Declaration of Independence.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.[/b]

  • coffinjoecoffinjoe 1,743 Posts
    The right to bear arms to keep a regulated militia is another.

    I do believe you're conflating "militia" with "professional standing army." As matters stand now, there really aren't any major militia groups. There hasn't been a need for them in quite some time.

    But the people must reserve the right to form and arm such a militia, should they become neccesary again. Imagine if Congress continued to pass Patriot Act-style legislation and continued to abridge and even obliterate personal freedoms in this country. Do you think we'd need a militia eventually?

    i think each states "national guard" unit fills this niche

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time.

    It does? It's interesting to read about this from another perspective since I don't live in America.

    I don't want to make shit sound rampant but violence in schools isn't reported all the time unless it rises to the level of something like VT. There was a mall shooting in Utah in February - five dead - and I asked my students how many had heard of it and only 2-3 people raised their hands.

    Then another student pointed out that there's shootings in inner city L.A. high schools all the time but no one ever reports on that either.

    As for suicides though, these are generally not reported to press b/c they're seen as private family matters vs. something of public interest. People are actually quite unaware that suicides far outnumber homicides in America but that's because suicides don't make the news at 11.
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